pollution and is growing at a time when nuclear power is stagnating, when investors are not investing. wind and solar are growing by leaps and bounds. look to wall street. that's where they're investing. it's a choice we can't afford to make wrong. investing in nuclear, every penny we spend to promote nuclear would be a penny we're not spending to promote wind and solar. >> is there some middle ground between you two? michael is right, solar energy isn't exactly catching on like wildfire here in the united states because it needs government support. but nuclear power is already around and we could probably improve that if we wanted to. >> nuclear power is around -- >> it's a little disingenuous for debbie to say -- the sierra club has spent 40 years fighting every new nuclear plant. they've spent 40 years killing the nuclear r & d program in