almost physically, what does he need to pull off when they're standing side by side? >> the bar is admittedly low. to not be helsinki, for trump, right, you just have to stand up there and not accept putin's view of the world. false view of the world and go against your own intelligence services. that's quite a low bar. but you -- the next step is, if you're going to challenge him in a way trump did not, how does that play out. what benefits do we see? so far, we haven't. you can say trump was -- sorry, biden was clearly tested by putin along the ukrainian border. you remember that big military build-up, talk of an invasion. didn't happen. maybe that test failed, but in terms of other things, the main russian opposition leader. he's still sitting in a penal colony. almost like the 1800s. so things like that have not changed. that's a test going forward. >> this guy right here, putin's friend brought down a plane. this will be interesting to watch and i look forward to speaking to you. >> looking forward to being