and he's certainly not going to be a cabinet secretary if biden wins, but the democrats, for warren and biden -- for buttigieg and harris and warren, they want that dialogue out there. there's no question. >> is that fair to say, joan? >> probably. >> that they're glad tim ryan said this? because they don't want to say it, but -- >> probably. and he needs to be tested, even though he's as old as he is, can he withstand the rigors of this campaign? it's tough. he has a lot of competitors. >> yet, he has withstood two debates. first, was not a great performance. second was better. and this week, another important debate. >> but i don't think he did very well on the climate change town hall. >> i didn't either. >> i think, you know, his whole story about the soldier and all of this stuff and parkland students, when he was vice president, i mean, so he's really -- he's made some not gaffes, but he's made some really big errors. >> the interesting thing, though, i kind of feel like the