be a factor is a real victory nature the civil rights community. the problem, the punt comes in in they don't really spell out how much of a factor race can be and what admissions officers are supposed to do when they're sitting there with applications. so yes, it is -- it is somewhat of a punt, but they did answer at least part of the question. >> what about the issue that i raised with reverend jackson? that you already have a higher percent of degree granting institutions -- african-american enrollment than you do of african-americans in the regular population, and the same with women? if you look at it that way, affirmative action has -- or other things, whatever, has already hugely succeeded. you don't need any more. you're already overrepresented. >> well, it depends sort of where you're counting in the process. in part, those numbers are due to the fact that there is affirmative action. so one of the reasons why they are so represented is -- is because of affirmative action in admissions. and also, as you look farther into the community in terms of