house chief of staff and then some colorable claim under federal law in terms of a defense. >> but he was trying to get the election overturned. he was just trying to get election results thrown out. that's clearly a political thing he was doing, right? what was he doing as the white house chief of staff there? >> there is -- so serving the interests of the president and serving the -- in that role, serving the interests of the president of the united states. i'm not defending that this is something that is something that -- >> he was serving his political interests. >> he was serving his political interests. i just believe that a judge is going to take a close look, and it's going to be examined closely by a judge in terms of what role mark meadows was playing there. was there any touch to his governmental -- to governmental interests in that discussion in terms of the service that he was providing to the president? i think it's a tough case, but the standard is so low that i

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