which governor perry reports, i don't know. have i? you don't believe what's been released? i don't know. i had dinner with donald trump the other night. the governor said, and i quote, i don't have any idea. it doesn't matter. he's the president of the united states. he's elected. it's a distractive issue. keeping them honest, if it's such a distractive issue to use governor perry's own words, then why bring it up? here's how he answered. >> i said it's a good issue to keep alive. donald has got to have some fun. >> it sounds like you really do have some doubt about it. >> i haven't seen his -- i haven't seen his grades. my grades ended up on the front page of the newspaper. so if we're going to show stuff, let's show stuff. but that's all a distraction. i mean, i get it. i'm really not worried about the president's birth certificate. it's fun to poke at him a little bit and say, hey, how about, let's see your grades and your birth certificate. >> so he says he's doing it to have a little fun but it doesn't really matter, but hey why not stir a little insinuation into the mix such as the president's grades. the suggestion in a nutshell weren't good enough for him to get into columbia law school or harvard where his classmates elected him head of the law review. we do know that he graduated from harvard with high honors in the top 10% of his class. late today, perry was asked again, this time by cnn's jim acosta, what he really believes and again governor perry did not provide a definitive answer. >> i'm just curious, what will it take to convince you that the president was born in this country and do you have any plans for -- >> i'll cut you off right there. that is one of the biggest distractions that there is going. we need to be talking about jobs. somebody want to see my birth certificate, i'd be happy to show it to them. but the fact is that is a distraction. >> keeping them honest, it's a distraction that the governor himself revived with no basis in fact, none. campaign initially put out this short form certification of live birth, exact same document anyone in hawaii gets and can be used to get a driver's license and passport. donald trump claimed he had sent detectives to hawaii to investigate. no one ever found any evidence he actually did. we did, however, send gary tuchman to look into the trump claims and find the facts. he spoke to people at hawaii's health department, including a former director who had inspected the original long form birth certificate. >> has anyone else looked at the certificate? >> the registrar has seen it as well. alvin onaka, he's the chief registrar for the state. he's the one that took me to see the documents. >> you are a registered republican? >> at the present time, yes. >> and work for a republican governor? >> yes, i did. >> and you still say that the birth certificate of this democratic president is authentic? >> absolutely. >> so gary found nothing unusual, no sign of conspiracy, no sign either of trump's so-called investigators. in fact, no evidence of anything, absolutely anything out of the ordinary about president obama's birth records. finally, earlier this year, in an effort to end the saga for once and for all, the white house made a special request and obtained a copy of the long form birth certificate. and that seemed to work. but trump raising doubts again, and inexplicably flirting with trump's birtherism. >> you associate yourself with a nutty guy like that and you damage yourself. i know he's trying to cultivate all of donald trump trying to get his endorsement, but this is not the way to go about doing it because it starts to marginalize you in the minds of some you need to get the election. >> polling appears to bear him out. donald trump is not a kingmaker, just the opposite, in fact. according to a recent fox news survey, just 6% say a trump endorsement would make them more likely to support a candidate. 62% said it would make no difference. a sharp warning tonight from jeb bush telling "the washington post" jennifer rubin, quote, republican candidates should categorically reject the notion that president obama was not born in the united states. it's a complete distraction from the failed economic policies of the president. joining us right now ari fleischer, now on twitter @arifleischer and pollster for the obama campaign, cornell belcher. what does it say about governor perry and his campaign that he's tipping his hat to a repeatedly disproven conspiracy theory? >> it tells me if he really wants to do well and run for presidency, he needs to up his game and focus more on the issue that counts, the economy. today is an important day for governor perry. he announced the new flat tax, but he's taking attention away from his own idea, this foolish issue about where barack obama was born. anderson, it's a waste of time. he's an american, he's our president. let's get on with the issues. >> in a way, cornell, does this help president obama with independents if such a high-profile republican contender is attempting to play to the fringe of his party on this made-up issue? >> well, look, no, it doesn't help president obama very much at all because, frankly -- because frankly, we'd rather be talking about his tax plan today than talking about the birther issue because i think that's an area where i think we can go after him on. i think the birther issue, look, there's a certain percentage of their base who want to delegitimize the president. however, i'm going to agree with ari at this point. that's not going to get him back in this race. just as a political professional, not as a democrat or republican, it's as painful to see him shoot himself in the foot time and time again when he came into this race with such fanfare and people thought he would challenge mitt romney. right now, he's in single digits. you see why he's in single digits. he needs to run a much better campaign if he's going to challenge mitt romney, oh, and i'm sorry, herman cain for this nomination. >> anderson, there's a deeper issue here, too, and that's for too long in american politics -- and i saw it from the other end -- people try to delegitimize their foes. it's one thing if you oppose somebody on policy, another thing to say that they're a liar or that they're illegitimate, they did not win the election or that he's not an american citizen. this is destructive to the body politic. we should be able to clash on ideology, clash on issues, but don't question the other person's motive or legitimacy. i didn't like it when people did it to george bush and i don't like it when people do to barack obama. i want to beat him on ideology and issues, not things like this. >> let's stop talking about the whole birther thing. even repeating the whole kind of history of it is just -- we're so beyond it, it feels like. but interesting that it's suddenly back now with rick perry. i do want to turn to rick perry's tax plan that he announced today. the flat tax is not a new concept. steve forbes, who endorsed rick perry, has been talking about it for years. what do we need to know about it? what should people know? >> what you need to know when you look at the plan today is what you don't know because that's what all the tax policy people here in washington have taxes for everyone. listen. >> families in the middle and on the lower end of the economic scale will have the opportunity to get ahead. you know, taxes will be cut across all income groups in america. >> that's a big, big claim, anderson. let's look at some of the facts here. certainly, under his plan, it looks like there would be lower taxes for wealthier people, lower corporate tax rates for companies, no tax on dividends or capital gains, no inheritance tax. they tend to favor people who have a lot of money. they are the ones who benefit from those things. what about everybody else? that's a different matter. he's talking about a 12,500 exemption before you pay taxes. that's higher than we currently have. so you can argue that's better for people at the lower end of the spectrum. two parents and one child, they easily go over $36,000 before they start paying income tax. then he talked about a 20% flat rate over that. the problem here -- when i say the part we don't know, for all of the 95% we know here, the 5% could have tremendous details and that could make a big difference. what kind of breaks do people lose at the lower end of the scale? things like the earned income tax credit. do they still get credit for that in the long run? there are many, many details left in this. bottom line is when we judge this one, is this really a case of it being at best true but incomplete, big emphasis on the incomplete, anderson. >> tom, thanks very much. back with the panel, cornell belcher and ari fleischer. ari, is this plan a strong move by governor perry? >> it is and here's why. what you're seeing on the republican side from perry and cain and to a lesser degree, mitt romney, is a desire to fundamentally change how washington is doing its business, to throw out the existing tax code which doesn't work, full of loopholes and anti-growth and replace it with something that encouraging economic growth to lift everybody up. it breaks from the stale debate we had in the '80s and '90s over should you get this distribution or that distribution and focuses instead on how does the country grow with a tax code that encourages entrepreneurialship and job creation. that's a fresh debate to be in. that's what i like about the republican proposals. as for the ideas what about the specifics, et cetera, we know that those get ironed out whoever the new president is with a republican congress. that's when you pay attention to the details. this is a directional move and the direction is a fundamentally new tax code. >> and cornell, how do democrats respond to that? because whether cain's plan or perry's plan, both on the appeal as being simple and offering this sweeping change. >> this is what we'd rather be talking about, because it is fundamentally wrong on the economics, but it is also wrong when you look at the values of it. at a time when middle-class america is shrinking, and a time where this country was built on the ideals of shared responsibility, shared sacrifice, what the republicans are saying is let's move our responsibility and accountability from the wealthiest americans and place it squarely on the backs of middle class. you see public polling where 70% of americans are saying let's raise taxes on the middle class, republicans are saying, no, let's not raise taxes on the middle class. let's lower their taxes. that's a place where democrats want the battle to be. >> ari, how do you respond to that? >> well, the purpose of the tax code should be to raise the revenue so the government can pay its bills. where we've gotten off track is the tax code has become so riddled with redistributionist programs and sacred cows that everyone is scratching each other's back and the country is broken with debt. we need a new tax code that gets rid of the muddle and focuses on helping people to make money and get a job and have economic growth. we're so far off that track. i remember when bill clinton ran in 1992. he ran on a middle class tax cut. never defined it. he ran on end welfare as we know it. never said how. and established him as a different kind of democrat without defining those policies. what you're hearing in this year's debate is that republicans are really the party of fundamental change and president obama is the one who really is defending the status quo that brought us the current economy and the tax mess that we have. that's a great debate to be in. >> interesting, you're basically, cornell, he's basically using, it seems flip, of what the last election was saying this is a change election but the change now favors the republican. >> and i love it. i think it's going to be a really hard sell for republicans to explain to americans how, in fact, doubling down on the policies that got us in this mess, cutting away regulations on big corporations, gutting environmental protection agencies, how these policies, cutting taxes even further for the wealthiest, the same time the middle class wants taxes raised for rich people, how these policies of the bush era in fact represent change. i got to tell you, this is a debate we relish having because it doesn't represent change at all. it's what got us in this mess in the first place. >> there's a new poll showing cain over mitt romney, rick perry has dropped to fifth place. national polls doesn't tell us about a race that could hinge on early states. but i want to play for viewers who haven't seen it, this rather interesting herman cain web video that a lot of people are talking about. the man you see on it is his chief of staff. take a look. >> i really believe that herman cain will put united back in the united states of america. and if i didn't believe that i wouldn't be here. we've run a campaign like nobody's ever seen. but then america's never seen a candidate like herman cain. ♪ i am america ♪ one voice united we stand ♪ i am america >> what do you make of that, cornell? >> best ad ever. best ad ever. >> was that a mistake? >> i got to feel that ari and i are going to be in complete agreement on this one. that ad, that ad tells me this, it tells me the herman cain campaign doesn't have any real infrastructure, because there's no way that campaign got green-lighted as it went up the process. there's no way a real campaign green lights that ad. look, nothing plays better to the hearts and minds of america than some weird guy smoking cigarettes directly on camera. it is unbelievably bad. and you have a hard time taking herman cain seriously at this point. at some point, he's got to turn the corner and hire real professional people because he's leading in the polls. >> ari, what do you make of the ad? he told me the other week he was hiring staffers. have we seen them yet? >> i asked the herman cain infrastructure about that today. they told me their goal is to redefine politics. those are their words. this ad is certainly not conventional. this is someone with a total outsider perspective would do. >> the smoking, do you think it's an accident -- >> i want to hear what other people think. it doesn't have to be the way it's always been in washington. but this is also not an ad. as you pointed out, this is on the web. they haven't spent a penny on real advertising and they've got everybody talking about this. it reinforces he's different, he's the outsider. he's got to take that and build on it. i'll give him credit for this. it's a weird ad, but i'll give him credit. >> i spent a lot of time in editing rooms. i wonder if that was a mistake leaving the shot of the smoking in, if no one double-checked it. >> what is he smiling at? this country is chock-full of suckers because a couple months ago, i was selling pizzas, now i'm running for the nomination for the republican party. i want to ask ari a serious question, does the rnc see that ad and think this is a guy we need to invest in and give money to? >> the republican establishment has very little idea what to do with herman cain. he has everyone scratching their head saying how real is he. he has to prove if he's real or not. he does have a chance. what this ad does reinforce is he will stand up to political correctness. that does resonate in republican circles. we need a sense of somebody who is blunt and tells it straight and is not politically correct. that's why cain has done as well as he has done up to date. people standing outside of buildings. you know when you walk in an office building and it smell of cigarettes because everyone is outside smoking. >> i'm going to have a smoke. >> thanks very much. let us know what you think -- we don't encourage that sort of thing on this program. i'll be tweeting tonight. up next, president obama's plan to help out homeowners. what about the big batch of promises made? 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