I watched your interviews, so i know how to do some interviewing. [laughter] ive learned from doing my interviews how leaders make it to the top. Jeff i asked him how much he wanted. He said 250. I said fine. I didnt negotiate with him. I did no due diligence. David i have something i would like to sell. [laughter] and how they stay there. You dont feel inadequate now because being only the second wealthiest man in the world, is that right . [laughter] david Thasunda Brown duckett is the president and ceo of tiaa, which is one of the largest income Retirement Security firms in the United States. She came to the position after leading chase consumer bank. I sat down with her to talk about her focus on retirement and how she wants to make certain that those who retire do so with dignity. Let me just ask you at the outset, for those people who are not as knowledgeable as you are, what actually is tiaa . What does that stand for . Thasunda yeah. So, it is great to be here. Tiaa stands for Teachers Insurance annuity association. But given that we are that and so much more, we are simply tiaa. And when you think about what we do, we exist to ensure that millions of americans can have a secure retirement. We were founded by Andrew Carnegie over 100 years ago, who saw a professor retire in poverty and not with dignity. And so, from that moment, our company was founded, and we are a fortune 100 company. We return all of our profits, share our profits with our participants, and we are very much anchored on fulfilling our mission, even as we stand here today. David so, Andrew Carnegie came up with this idea 100 plus years ago because College Professors at the time were retiring and they have no money, i assume. And what about people who are not College Professors . Lets suppose they are high school teachers. Were they covered as well . Thasunda yeah, so over time we started with professors. But over time, our mission expanded to not just professors on campus but also the janitors, the staff, k12, hospitals, other nonprofits, and most recently having our product travel into the 401 k market. And really when you think about our mission to make sure that people can retire with dignity, we think having access to guaranteed income is part of ones retirement portfolio is absolutely critical. David so, when people retire now if they have a tiaa program, they get a guaranteed income, or they get just whatever they can return on their investments . Thasunda clearly, our participants have choice and it depends on the university or the organization. But what makes tiaa special is within their inplan portfolio, they can have exposure to guaranteed income. And that means that in addition to stocks and bonds, you have an inplan annuity that provides you that guarantee, that insurance that you can feel confident regardless of the markets it will not go negative, that you will not outlive it, and ultimately it can complement your overall financial allocation as you think about your retirement. David so today, what do you think the biggest problem is with respect to worrying about investments . Are you worried about the economy . Are you worried about the geopolitical situation around the world . What is going to most adversely affect your ability to give good rates of return to your clients . Thasunda when i think about how we invest, we are pretty wellpositioned to navigate any environment, but if i just think about the broader economy, clearly inflation is top of mind for the fed. Clearly, i worry about the war in ukraine. And i also worry about the geopolitical environment. I think when it comes to our participants, inflation is top of mind because these are individuals that are thinking about retirement or in retirement and the everyday cost is what is top of mind for them. And so that is what is top of mind for me. David given how high inflation is right now relative to where it was, i mean, what can somebody who has the worry about retirement and living on a fixed income really do . Thasunda that is the beauty of tiaa traditional. That is what we have been here to do for over 100 years. And so, people who are thinking about retirement or in retirement that have access to guaranteed income, they are able to draw on their Social Security and they are also able to draw on their guaranteed income while they are navigating the volatile markets and hopefully not having to sell too early in the market. And so, i think more than ever, this is so important to talk about access to guaranteed income access to planned annuities. David lets suppose you are not a teacher, you are not any of the professions you cover. Lets suppose you are in something important like private equity. [laughter] thasunda you might be ok. David lets suppose you work in a private equity firm and you say, i have heard tiaa has a good program. I would like to sign up for it. Can you sign up for private equity programs as well . Do you Cover Industries not just normally associated with tiaa . Thasunda yeah, well we just recently announced our ability to have access to Lifetime Income solutions guaranteed income move into the 401 k market. And so, very soon the answer will be yes, that within your plan you will have an opportunity, if we negotiate that with your plan sponsor, to have exposure to tiaa traditional product that we call the secure income product. David suppose i say i like your company and i would like to invest in the company. I just want to make a good investment. Can i invest in your company . Thasunda no, we are private. And so, we are not a public company. We are private. But the good news is if you are a participant, you get to share our profits. And so, if you worked at a university or health care with tiaa, you get the benefit in sharing our profits. David you thought about going public and changing all those rules . Or you dont want to do that . Thasunda no, i would rather share my profits with our participants. David so you guarantee people through an annuity certain returns when they retire. Is that right . Thasunda yeah, we guarantee a percentage and then depending on the performance of the company and our investments, we can credit you a higher amount depending on how we are performing. David i assume that you are able to do that because you put a lot of money in private equity, which gets high rates and return, is that right . [laughter] thasunda we are able to do that because we have a great investment manager that is here. But our general account primarily has exposure to fixed income, but we also do have exposure to private equity and alternatives that allows us to have a high aaa rated type Insurance Company with exposure to equity which gives us the the opportunity over the long haul to outperform in return or share those profits back to participants. David tiaa owns nuveen. Is that right . Nuveen is your investment arm. Is that right . This is a company you bought a number of years ago and all of your investments go through nuveen, is that right . Thasunda yes. David nuveen was a Municipal Bond specialist at one point but they diversified out of that . Thasunda they have. What has been quite special about the acquisition in 2014 is they were known as a top shop, and we still are, but through acquisitions and partnerships like churchill and others we now have a general account that provides exposure to not just traditional investments but also alternatives, which has been terrific for us. David today, your interest in this is in part because you saw when you were a young child your father did not have a retirement program. Is that right . Thasunda yes, so my father worked for a company for many years, bluecollar worker, drove trucks, worked in the warehouse. And he had access to his pension plan but he could also have participated with his 401 k . And it was not until i graduated from college and was talking to my father, otis brown, and realized that he, at that time, had never contributed to his 401 k . And to have the daughter look at your father and say, dad, this is not sufficient, is something that stayed with me, because there are so many otis browns out here that have access to a Retirement Plan but that plan may not have communicated in a way otis brown would say, this is something i need to take advantage of and as a result, there were a lot of dollars that were left on the table. Where were you born . I was born in rochester, new york. At that time, one of the options was moving to texas and grow we drove to texas. We started our lives with just the five of us and not much else. While part of texas were you in . Arlington. Were you interested in finance always . No. My dad would say i was going to be a lawyer because i would always debate everything in the house. You are a gifted athlete. I was pretty good. I was pretty good in basketball and volleyball. You did not try to play professionally . No. If i try to play now i might be a water girl. Where did you go to school . Sam houston high school. Who tried to go to the university of houston as well . That is right. What did you study . I graduated from the university of houston with degrees in financing and marketing. There is a program called inroads it is a program for minorities. Inroads was my disruptor. Inroads is what gave me an opportunity to even know the word Corporate America. And so i interned at a Company Called fannie mae and that is how i got exposure into financial services. David you went to work for fannie mae. Thasunda i did. David did you get an mba as well at some point . Thasunda i did. While i was at fannie mae, i was able to work fulltime and pursue my mba, and i did that at baylor. David so, you later joined a firm called chase, a little bank in new york. Who recruited you to chase . Thasunda yeah, so at the time it was the ceo of the mortgage company. And i was on fannie mae business in new york and presented. Afterwards he asked me a question. I dont know or remember what it was, but i answered it. And then he said, i hear you are highly regarded at fannie mae. What would it take for you to join chase . David and what did you say . Thasunda i said, we can meet for lunch. [laughter] david ok, ok. So you ultimately, i guess, convinced him that you should be hired and you joined chase. Is that right . Thasunda i would say he ultimately convinced me, but yeah. At that time, and really what is so interesting about this story is that about six months before that meeting, i said to myself, no matter how much i love fannie mae, i really believed in the mission. The mission is our business. The business is our mission. I can never get closer to the consumer being in the secondary market. So one of my goals was to get closer to the consumer and this opportunity allowed me to do that. David so you rose up to be the president of chase consumer bank. Thasunda yes. David you oversaw that for how many years . Thasunda for about three years. 2. 5, three years. David did you ever have an atm card denied . What did you do if that happens . Thasunda i know who to call within the team to help. I never had my card denied, but we would do some testing. I would absolutely pop into a branch and hope they didnt know who i was and asked a few questions. David did you ever have a credit card really denied . Thasunda it is a tough feeling when you get denied. But you know theyre just doing it to protect you. David did you say, do you know who i am . I am the head of this. [laughter] thasunda i did not. I just was treated like everyone else. David all right, so, how long ago did you get approached by tiaa . Thasunda this happened in 2021. David ok, during the covid period of time . Thasunda yes. David all right, so they approached you and said, would you like to be the president and chief executive officer . And you said, let me ask jamie dimon, is that what you said . Thasunda not exactly. It was a long interview process. And clearly, they were able to tell me all the wonderful things about this company, and over time i fell in love with the company and realized that this definitely was the next best move for me and my career. I think this is the most amazing job. I get to lead a company, a fortune 100 company that is anchored in a mission to make sure that everyone has access to retirement and can retire with dignity. So, yeah, this is a phenomenal opportunity that i get a privilege to lead. David so, are you surprised there are only two women, you are one of them, running a fortune 500 company today who is an African American woman . Is that surprising to you in this time . Thasunda it is surprising in one sense, but not surprising in the other. It is surprising in the sense that there are so many talented African American women that could absolutely lead a fortune 500. It is not surprising because we know that there has only ever been three full time, four total, to run a fortune 500. And it just says that we have a lot more work to do not just in Corporate America but in so many facets of our society. David so what are you doing at tiaa about diversity, equity and inclusion in your management ranks and in your employee ranks . How do you rank in that area now . Thasunda well, we are at the very top. It starts with the board. Im fortunate enough to have a board of trustees that commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion is something that has always been part of what we are at tiaa. Our board is very diverse. My Management Team is probably one of the most diverse teams of any fortune 500 company. And when i think about our why, it is just saying i want the best talent. And if you fundamentally believe that talent is created equally, opportunity is not, you always ask who is not at the table . Who is not in the room . And i get to surround myself with people that have the same level of resolve. David now, esg is big thing in the investment world. A lot of your clients say they care about esg performance or how do you measure your esg performance at tiaa . Thasunda we have always been committed to esg. When i think about our why, clearly we believe that it is core to longterm growth and it is core to understanding and mitigating risk. And we also understand the Important Role that it can play in society. So our participants are very much curious about what we are doing in esg. Nuveen clearly has been a leader in esg. And it is a conversation that we have on campus. It is a conversation that we have at universities and hospitals, etc. , so it absolutely is top of mind. David suppose the president of the United States called you and said, you are so talented, i want you to be in my cabinet. Would you ever serve on the cabinet of the president , or you dont want to go to washington at all . Thasunda if a president called me to serve, it would be something to take under consideration but not if it conflicted with being the ceo of tiaa. David so, one of your cos is making certain there is access to financial security. What have you done at tiaa to make certain that people who are underserved actually get a fair break . Thasunda what i am really proud of is that at tiaa, we dont just focus on the professors. We spent a lot of time talking to universities about the people that are cleaning the grounds. We meet with them and we will share data and insights to say here who is participating, here who is not. We have a mission metric to see, are you on track, and to be able to talk to a university to say here are those who are on track and here are those who are not and how can we Work Together to provide advice, have our Wealth Advisors meet with them, be able to do it there, but advocates also as a matter of policy on how do we make things easier for all americans to have access to a 401 k , 43b plan in a way that is easy, auto enrollment, auto escalation, and a way that can make sure we are bringing education insights to them as well. David you describe the situation with your father. He did not really know what a 401 k was or how to apply for it. How do you deal with people in an equivalent position . What do you do to educate them . Thasunda yeah, i mean, first, we have to meet people where they are. We know money is emotional. When you are an otis brown trying to do the best that you can, it is not enough for companies to say we have it on our website or we put a flyer together. I think what we all have to do as leaders is we have to go to the warehouse. We have to make sure that we are talking in a way that otis brown can say this is something that i need to do today. So what we are doing at tiaa, whether that is digital, whether thats through benefits and affairs, we are really working with our Plan Sponsors to say, how do we reach every faculty and staff at your university . If it is in a different language, how do we do that . How do we make sure that if they need to bring their family, we do that . The point is, it is not just looking at the overall plan and say yes, we have a plan, yes we have benefits, yes we provide education. We have to look at engagement. Are they engaging, and then what is happening in terms of the outcome . David women on average have about a 30 lower amount of money saved up for retirement compared to men. So what are you doing about that . Thasunda we have launched a campaign called retiring equality. We do know that women retire with 30 less. Women make 83 cents on the dollar. And so, theres a couple things that we are doing. One, it is having this conversation and making sure we are all aware there is a gap. By the way, women live longer than men, so longevity risk is a real factor. Secondly, it is about making sure we are talking to women about what can you do differently. Whether that is negotiating pay and what are some tools that are out there, making sure that you take the time to negotiate because we know women do not negotiate as much as men which puts you at a disadvantage to start. But then also, along the way, making sure women are securing their own retirement and that is part of their Retirement Plan. We are having much more conversation around guaranteed income as well. And so ensuring that we understand what are the nuances for women. If you think about covid, two million women exited the workforce. They did not continue to contribute to their 401 k or 43b plan. And so how do we make sure as a matter of policy, as a matter o