Day. Where are we in the continuing drama of what the hell is going to happen to greece . Eric trying to make sense of the story is exactly what were trying to do. It has been a heck of a day here in athens, greece, because as you mentioned, we learned earlier in the day that Alexis Tsipras made a counter offer to his european creditors, saying i will take most of what you put on the table, but with some conditions. These are not minor conditions. He has some issues with the value added tax, for example. He has issues with pension reform. He wants to delay pension reform. He wants to get the give the parliament an opportunity to weigh in on labor legislation. They sound like small, discrete points, but added up, they are very important. Its not clear how well they would go down with european creditors, and im talking about the imf and the ecb and the european commission, if they were willing to sit down at the table, but what we learned from Jeroen Dijsselbloem the dutch finance minister who leads the eurogroup of finance ministers today, is that the time for negotiation has come and gone. What the eurogroup and presumably the imf and ecb want to see now is a referendum. That is where we are headed on sunday. Charlie what is the likely outcome of that referendum . Erik no is no two of european bailout under the current offer and yes is yes to the bailout conditions. The way this is being framed is yes is yes to the eurozone, and no is yes to a grexit, so to speak. It looks like for the time being as though more athenians and grecians than not want to stay in the eurozone. Charlie is citrus supporting a cyprus supporting a no vote i understand he is . Eric absolutely. He went on state television in a taped address to urge his people to vote no. On that basis, there appears to be absolutely no room between him and jerome dyson bloom and John Claude Juncker and mario draghi and madame lagarde. Hes going his way, they are going the other way. It appears we will not know how this is resolved until some point late in the evening on sunday, and between now and then, its going to be some furious campaigning. Charlie if the vote is yes, will tsipras resign . Eric he promised on monday night that if the vote goes yes, he will resign. The open question is, if the margin of difference between victory and loss is very narrow, will he actually live up to that promise . I dont know. The reason i raise that question is because this government, not just the Prime Minister, but the finance minister and other members of the cabinet have made promises to which they have not lived up to, many steps along the way since january, since this drama began. It remains to be seen. Thats what he said he would do. We will see. What else can i say at this point . Charlie you said that well. Let me go to peter. So where are we . Peter eric mentioned mario draghi in passing. I think mario draghi is the key figure here. If youre talking about the crisis for greece now is that they dont have any money in the banks. Banks. That is because the ecb has put a cap on how much emergency loan it will allow the bank of greece to make available to the greek banks. Thats why when people show up at the atms, they are having trouble getting money out. Thats why there is a cap of 60 euros per day. That cannot go on. Something has to change there. The ecb is supposed to be apolitical, not mixed up in who is elected, who is in and out of office. We are just the technocrats who run the banking system. But they are getting pulled into this. What the ecb decides in the days and weeks ahead will pretty much determined whether greece stays in our goes out of the eurozone. Charlie two cases i want you to make citrus has a point its hard to get growth in an economy when you have to live under the restrictions that have been imposed on it by its creditors. Peter joe stiglitz said he cannot think of a time when the when a country has suffered through a depression as deep as this one that was essentially voluntarily imposed upon it. Stiglitz is sort of sympathetic to paul krugman. They have a point, which is that greece is suffering under major austerity. Raising taxes now and cutting the budget is only going to exacerbate that problem. The finance minister of greece has been making the point that this austerity is crushing the country. The problem is that tsipras has lost his credibility as a spokesperson. They have flipflopped so many times. Just this week, we have seen examples of that. So many offers and counter offers that nobody wants to listen to them anymore. Even though they have a point. Charlie Bloomberg Businessweek with a cover story called how greece can get past the pain. How can greece save itself . Peter in that article, we try to say, somehow we will get past the crisis stage, and then we will be on to what are the fundamentals of greece that it can use to rebuild the new economy. And what are they . Their number one moneymaker is shipping. It has to be a key. Tourism is another key. Its such a gorgeous country. Anybody who has been there loves it. Charlie what do you think the germans would say . Eric the germans would say that the greeks lacked discipline simple as that. [laughter] there is a point there, but the time for moralizing is passed. Lets try to move forward. The reason people arent listening to them is that they just dont trust the greeks to do the right thing. Thats why this latest offer from tsipras the europeans are not even willing to listen. We have heard from you guys. Charlie then you come back with conditions to accepting our offer no thank you. We will a you have for we will let you have your referendum. So eric, what should we watch for now . Just simply wait for the referendum, or whatever event could be influential . Eric at the moment, its a waiting game. As i have said, youre going to see furious campaigning from the government, which is plastering athens with signs and posters in favor of a no vote. The yes campaign has to get itself organized. Its not particularly wellorganized right now. We may see that beginning to play out. The polling numbers suggest that things are working in favor of yes, so they may not have to work that hard. But you know the Prime Minister and his cabinet are going to be out there on the streets and on television telling greeks to vote no. It doesnt appear as though the movement of international markets, whether it be european stocks, or for that matter the euro, are going to affect much at this point. I think that serves as a bit of a distraction. Its really what happens here on the ground in greece. The signs we get from the germans, and Jeroen Dijsselbloem, and his finance ministers in the eurogroup is that they are done. We are probably not going to hear from them between now and sunday in a substantial way unless something crazy happens here. I dont even know what that would be. Dyson bloom himself said there is no basis for us to reinitiate negotiations. The opportunities to do that ended last night with the expiration of the previous bailout program. Now its up to the greeks. Charlie eric, thank you so much. We may come back to you as the story unfolds. Al Sylvia Burwell is secretary of the department of health and human services. She presides over Government Health care programs including medicare and the Affordable Health care act. In the clinton administration, she was chief of staff to the treasury secretary, who said she was simply the best. She later was president of Global Development at the Gates Foundation and then president of the walmart foundation. She came back to government in 2013, when barack obama asked her to be director of the office of management and budget. Last year she was named the 22nd hhs secretary. When the Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Affordable Health care act last week, she said she cried tears of joy. A proud daughter of west virginia, she was a rhodes scholar. Shes often called the policy wunderkind. I was stunned to see last week she celebrated her 50th birthday. A belated happy birthday, and thank you for joining us. Sylvia thank you for the birthday wishes. I appreciate it. Im glad to be here. Al youve seen the reaction since the decision in the court last week. How does it change the landscape, if at all, and what are the major challenges you now face . Sylvia it gives us an opportunity to build on the progress we have seen in the areas of quality, affordability, and access in the health care space. I think we can turn and build on that and focus on some important things that we all need to focus on and do together. Access we need to work on those numbers and we can do that by having a strong open enrollment and doing further medicaid attention. Expansion. Now al 40 of subsidy eligible people are now enrolled. Is it sustainable at that rate, and what do you think you can get to . Sylvia with regard to the marketplace, what we saw last year when we saw 25 more plans coming into the marketplace, that you have something that is a sustainable marketplace where there is competition and choice that the consumer can come in and use. We still want to continue to reach those who are part of the uninsured and make sure were that we are helping them understand that they can afford quality care and help and support them in using that care. Al now that the court has said federal exchanges are part of the law, do you expect some of those 17 state exchanges, a number of which are having financial struggles, that they will switch to healthcare. Com . Sylvia we havent seen that. In terms of where we were before we were having those conversations with hawaii. Weve worked with a number of states as they work through how and where they want to be. In terms of changes, there are a number of states have had very successful exchanges. Whether that is connecticut kentucky, new york, a number of states. Our plan is to work with the state that want to be state exchanges, and for those that dont, we work on the federal exchanges. And where there are things they want to do, we will work with the states. Al you did see enrollment in the last sign up or greater on on the last sign up that was greater on the federal than the state exchanges. Sylvia we did see a strong enrollment on the federal exchanges. States had increases across the board. As we go into the next open enrollment, thats one of the things we are focused on. Had we make sure that the how do we make sure that the federal and state exchanges continue to bring people in . Al the Republican Congress is not going to repeal obamacare. We know that. They werent going to do it before and one do it now, wont do it now, but they can project difficulties. They can cut funding for cms try to eliminate the independent payment Advisory Board or patientcentered outcomes. What kind of problems with those windows create . Would those create . Sylvia lack of funding is a problem. Thats an issue across the entire government. The idea that as a nation, sequester would stay in place and we would have funding levels that some of the lowest levels in decades. It is cms that runs all of our health care programs. That is an issue for running medicare and other programs like that, but also the in ih and the nih and places like that, or the centers for disease control, that we depended on so much this year for so many things, whether ebola or our conversations around measles, or supporting a state like indiana as it is going through its difficulties with hiv. Al how optimistic are you . Sylvia i think you know i am an optimist. I came to town as an optimist. I came to town right as the sequester was beginning and people we were going to get thought we werent going to get there. Then there was a deal that led to all of the bills being passed. That was the First Time Since 1987 that all the bills passed together. I think it can be done again. We can get to a place where there can be agreement. Al youve got to do it pretty soon, though. Sylvia we will need to do it. October 1 is a very important deadline in terms of funding the government for the next year. Al bill frist, former Senate Republican leader, and generally a supporter of the Affordable Health care act, said the president has to start to do now what he says he has failed to do, which is try to bring the parties together to fix parts of the law. Are you going to do that, and what do you need to fix . Sylvia today the president is in tennessee. Thats a big part of the conversation. He is there because tennessee is a state where we have seen affordability and quality move together in a bipartisan way. Weve seen it move with the private and the Public Sector working together. He is there and tennessee to reflect that. I think that is where we need to go as a nation and build on the progress weve made, and focus on things like making sure people know how to use that care, how to access a doctor and understand the bills. Or if you are in the employerbased market, you know that there are Preventive Services you can get without copay. With regard to the legislative issues, there are number we have articulated. We want to hear and understand and have a real conversation about the substance. In our current budget before congress, we actually expand the tax credits for Small Businesses to companies that have more employees. We got feedback that the number was too low, so we have proposed that. Another proposal is something that gets to a topic that people talk about a lot. Giving the secretary of hhs the ability to negotiate on highcost pharmaceuticals. Thats something in terms of the price issues that people are focused on. Al im guessing you get some resistance from the industry on that. Sylvia i would think that we would, but we want to work to create a system. Its a historic time in terms of the energy from the private sector, meaning insurers as well as providers, as well as the Public Sector, on changing our Delivery System and how we deliver health care in the u. S. , in terms of improving the quality, spending the taxpayers dollar better, and putting the consumer at the center of care. Al to get some of that, youre going to have to give up some stuff. Thats what bargaining is all about. Would you be willing to put on the table the medical device tax . Which liberals like Elizabeth Warren have opposed to . Have opposed . Sylvia with regard to the idea of negotiations and knowing that you dont always get what you want, whether thats the ryan murray work that was done or in the most recent Sustainable Growth rate, there were so me so many things that were great about that bill. But there were things we would have liked as well. In any of these conversations, we know that that is going to be a place we will have to go. With regard to the medical device tax, as weve said in the space, were going to review things based on four basic things. Affordability, access and quality how does it impact those three things and what does it do to the economy . Increasing our deficit by 24 billion is something we have a real question about. We would want to understand why they want to take this step in terms of improving access affordability, and quality, and what you would do with regard to deficit impact. Al after the court ruling, you said now is a time to come together, but that wasnt really the reaction of a lot of prominent republicans. Paul ryan, whom may bbq republican on capitol hill blasted chief Justice Roberts for writing legislation from the bench. He said obama care is a bust because government control brings higher prices, fewer choices, and lower quality. Sylvia i think taking each of those this is what i need to do in this conversation. It will help bring us together. Lets look at the substance. In terms of the issues of higher prices, as we look at what happened before, thats an important part of the conversation. Where were we as a nation before . Having been in both the private and Public Sector, the issue is increased health care costs. The rates they were increasing could not be sustained. What we see now is we see some of the lowest price growth in health care that weve seen in the history of keeping records. With regard to issues of quality, i think most people agree, and even mr. Bush agreed, because he said keep those preexisting conditions, he said it should be preserved. Al are we talking about the president , or the candidate . Sylvia mr. Jeb bush. Al ok. Sylvia i think there are a lot of places where we start having the conversation of substance and quality preexisting , conditions can no longer keep you off your insurance. As a woman, you cant be discriminated against anymore. In terms of Preventive Care copays for many things like immunizations as well as preventive Cancer Services in terms of screenings, many of those things no longer have copays, and most people want that. I think what we need to do is connect the conversation to the substance of what is happening and where there are issues, lets find places where we can improve the problem we want to work on. Al and his charge about fewer choices . Sylvia with regard to the question of choices, when we look at the marketplace, and 25 more folks came into the marketplace. Its important to reflect, its a marketplace. When i think is a great thing about the system the marketplace means youre making choices as an individual between private plans. Thats what it is. It is a market. One of the things that i think we seek is getting to the consumer at the center. 29 of those individuals who reenrolled this year came in shopped, and selected new plans. That is a consumer that is informed and making choices. Al there are widespread reports that after the experience this year, the premiums, some people say are going to soar 10 or more. In south dakota, i think the request is 42 . Does that worry you . Sylvia i will always focus on premiums, deductibles, and outofpocket costs. One thing is about the total cost of the end of the individual thats something the Affordable Care act and our efforts are very focused on. With regard to the specifics, there are number of things we know. One is that these are the proposals. Part of what happened in the Affordable Care act is creating transparency, so people in the marketplace can see whats happening. Those proposals, anything over 10 , has to be justified and reviewed. Thats part of downward pressure on premiums. We also know that most insurers have said they believe that the majority of people that will come in the marketplace in 2016 will have plans with less than a 10 increase in premiums. These studies are being done one says probably 5. 8 . Last year people came in with their premiums levels that they proposed, and then they came down. But it is an important thing to watch. Al would you expect that premiums will rise more next year than this year . Sylvia one of the things that we will see is where we saw people pricing in a certain level where they gained market share, you may see some of that. One of the other things that just happened, the law is complicated. Health care is complicated. The three rs, those mechanisms put in place to put downward pressure on premiums and help people adjust, two of those we just talked about this week at hhs. What we saw is that in the claims data and things coming through, we believe that we are going to pay even more back in terms of additional downward pressure. Risk adjustment, reinsurance and risk corridors. Corridors. They target different things. Some target the fact that as people were entering into the market, some insurers might not have priced correctly. So we adjust and help them adjust. They pay money and then money goes back out on a number of these. Cbo tells you how many uninsured as well. What i think people need to do is, lets understand what all the specifics are. Are you going to get rid of kids on their plan for 26 . Are you going to ensure that preexisting conditions work . Are you going to get rid of the Consumer Protections that have been put in place, things like lifetime limits, annual limits or the fact that no copay for Preventive Services . When they say there is an approach, we believe what we have in front of us is working. Al how does the ryan plan score . Sylvia i dont know that there is a score, and that is my point. One of the things that i think we need to do is make this conversation get to the specifics and the substance and what the substance will do. Al suppose for a moment the aca had not passed. Comparatively, watch would what with the Health Care System what would the Health Care System look like today . Care, coverage, and cost . Sylvia with regard to questions of access, weve seen the largest drop in terms of coverage. Access has been a huge part of what has happened. With regard to issues of quality, i would focus on things like we have reduced the number of harms, which are things happening in the hospital, either falls or other things that occur in a hospital setting. We reduced the number of harms using tools in the Affordable Care act. In that area of affordability, to be specific the trajectory of , medicare spending, from passage of the act in 2009, we would have spent 316 billion more on medicare. The benefits and the other thing if it didnt exist, there are 9 million seniors in this country who have received 15 billion, because we closed the doughnut hole as part of the Affordable Care act. Even two weeks ago, and it did not receive a lot of attention because many other things were going on the attorney general , and i announced the largest takedown in terms of medicare fraud. Over 700 million, over 200 people charged. We used some of the authorities. They help us get that integrity to the taxpayer, so we are protecting the taxpayer dollar. The court in its 2011 ruling said the states do not have to follow the Medicaid Expansion , where the federal government picks up the tab to expand coverage for poor people. A lot of states did not. Some you have negotiated with like indiana. There are still over 20 states that have not expanded medicaid. Are you optimistic that any of those will go along, and what about hardcore places like texas and louisiana . Sylvia i agree there are some states that will be very hard. But i also am optimistic we can get some more states in. The question of what it means for individuals, and many of these are working individuals. They are at a place in terms of, there their people are working but dont have Health Coverage for them. Having traveled the country and met the folks we are talking about in terms of the people who when they get that coverage what it means in terms of their lives and health and their Families Health and financial security, that is an important driver. The second part of this is the issue of what it means to states and their economies. In kentucky, governor bush years Governor Beshear has had studies done along the way to measure the impact of expansion in the state of kentucky. University of louisville did a piece of work that said by 2021, 40,000 jobs will be created in kentucky because of the expansion, and 30 billion will flow into the kentucky budget system. Al because you have healthier sylvia its everything together. Al why today, five years later, is the aca i wont say unpopular, but it doesnt command majority support even today. Sylvia i think we as an administration have not done as much as we could to make sure people understand the breadth of the benefit. The aca became about a very narrow thing an important thing it became even narrower than the uninsured it became about the marketplace, at one point in time. But it is about so much more. Making sure that people understand that benefits they get every day and that they are using are things that are part of the Affordable Care act. They are things that are now in the fabric. Most people agree the preexisting conditions is just one of many things. Up to 26yearolds those are things that people now accepted as part of our Health Care System. Al when you leave office, would you expect that most people would talk about it as the aca or Affordable Health care act, or will it still be known primarily as obamacare . Sylvia i hope people talk about a system where they get better quality and it is more affordable, that they actually talk about what it is and what it means. Al you dont care what they call it if thats the case . Sylvia i do not. Really, thats what this is about. The more we give people the information to make their choices, that is the empowered consumer. That is both their choices in politics and the substance of their health care. I believe the american people, when given that information, they make good choices. Charlie at the stroke of midnight on august 15, 1947, the world witnessed the death of the British Indian empire and creation of two new countries, india and pakistan. It sparked some of the worst sectarian violence of the 20th century. Along the newly created border between the two nations, hindus, muslims, and sikhs killed hundreds of thousands of people in an or to violence and lasted six we for nearly 70 years pakistan and india have lived in the shadow of that violence. Both sides have built up massive arsenals of Nuclear Weapons aimed at each others cities. Pakistans support for extremist groups has helped fueled the rise of islamic fundamentalism in afghanistan and beyond. That historic amnesty entity its the basis of a new book by nisid hajari. An author and asian editor of bloomberg view, im very pleased to have him talk about this very good book. Welcome. Thank you. Charlie i have just laid out what is essentially the argument. The petition meant pakistan always being smaller. Took cover in the secretary and disagreements muslim and hindu and they both were in competition, not only with each other, but also in other places, and from that came the rise of fundamentalist islamic militants. Nisid the founder of pakistan never intended to be a never intended it to be a theocracy. It was supposed to be a state where muslims could be the majority. But he was not a religious man. In this process of partition, what happened was, you created a state that was small, inherently weak, and received only about 17 of the assets of the former britishindian empire, and because of the experience and what followed afterwards, the initial war in kashmir and so forth, developed an idea that its larger neighbor was out to destroy it and was in and it was an existential threat. If you listen to quotes of indian leaders at the time charlie Remarkable Research youve done, going back to a whole range of sources. Nisid yes. The speeches they gave, the personal diaries, it was incredible. It is honest in a brutal way. The indian leaders intended and hoped pakistan wouldnt survive at first. They hoped that in a few years it would decided once we are to it would decide to be a part of india again. In a frilly way. Friendly way. Charlie and in fact, india has the second largest Muslim Population in the world. But it has so many interesting stories. The story of jennas wife committing suicide. Nisid the book is based around the rivalry between two men who are very similar, scientifically minded, very secular, really disliked each other. Their mutual antipathy hit a particularly vitriolic point after jenna had married the daughter of a friend. She was 16 when they met. He was a rising political star at the time. His star was eclipsed by Mahatma Gandhi and by nehru. His marriage fell apart and his wife committed suicide. Nehru starts to become the leader of the nationalist movement. His wife passed away from tuberculosis and he started an affair area it was with a young indian woman who was best friends with the former wife. Charlie and that was the source of the enmity. Because his wife had committed suicide nisid there was a time when he believed he would be the leader of the united india and it became clear after his fall that it would never happen. As a muslim he would never be able to charlie how did you approach this, because other books have been written about this. Freedom at midnight was one. And midnights children was the second one. Yet somehow this is such an exciting story. Nisid the drama is incredible. Freedom at midnight is a great operatic tale. But the authors base most of it on the testimony of lord mountbatten. It must be admitted that he was fabulous. His stories all involved him playing a central role in saving the day at the last possible moment. It made for great cinematic text, but doesnt bear that much resemblance to reality. What i wanted to do here is bring in truths from both sides into a narrative truths that would show both sides. There were faults in leaders for from each of them. Charlie how many people were killed in all . Nisid the estimates range from 200,000 up to 2 million. My guess is it would be toward the low end of the scale, but the records were very scattershot. Hundreds of thousands of people were buried in shallow graves along the roads as they were fleeing from one country to the other. No one really knows. Charlie tell me who the main characters are. Nisid Mahatma Gandhi, obviously. Although by this. In time gandhis great campaigns against the british it taken place in the 20s. At this point he was almost 80 years old. He was still important in a spiritual sense. Other indian leaders looked up to him but he was not a , political factor in a way that nehru was. Then there was lord mountbatten obviously, this great flamboyant british member of the royalty who came in and attempted to give away the empire. Finally, there was patel, nehrus hardline deputy, very different from him and personality. Wanted the same things, but when but went about them in a very different way. Much less tolerance for memories never as mn nehrus impetuosity and flights of fancy. Patel was not as sympathetic about muslims. His issue was, if you dont want to be here, go to pakistan. Charlie but had they had conflict with hebrews and muslims in india since then . Its not a huge issue politicians who want to if politicians want to the present Prime Minister. These tensions are there and can be exploited. They were exploited in 1947 as well. Thats part of what led to it. Charlie and today, the link to radical fundamentalism, islamic terrorism, goes back to the mindset that was ingrained in pakistan in 1947. It cant all be explained by this, but in these few short weeks in 1947, this idea that pakistan would always be vulnerable to its larger neighbor, and you see within about two months of independent, of independence, in october of 1947, various pakistani leaders sponsored and unofficial jihad, sending pashtun tribesmen into the state of kashmir to try to overthrow the maharaja. These were tools they could use. Their army couldnt fight oneonone, but they could use these militants. There is nothing ideologically that unified pakistan to begin with. When pakistan began, it was two separate parts of the country , part of it was bonded bangladesh, not even connected physically. So theres a very Loose Association there. They decided what would unify them was enmity towards india and islam. So they had to pump up the islamic factor in their fight for kashmir and so on. That started to spread the ideas among young pakistanis. Charlie some consider pakistan the most dangerous country in the world. I believe that was a magazine cover you wrote. Do you still believe that . Nisid i do in one sense. Pakistan provides safe havens to the Afghan Taliban and. They have provided unofficial support to islamic militants. Charlie they put them in prison for a day and then let them out. Nisid exactly. And pakistan is building the fastestgrowing nuclear arsenal. We dont know all that much about their doctrines safety, and so on. The chances of a nuclear war breaking out or greater here than anywhere else in the world. Charlie by mistake and miscalculation . Nisid a couple of weeks ago the indians were threatening to go across the border if another terror attack happens. Charlie did they suggest they would actually use Nuclear Weapons . Nisid no, the indians did. Pakistan responded by saying we reserve the right to use tactical Nuclear Weapons if you cross the border. Because of this inequality of power, the pakistans have never renounced first used first use of their Nuclear Weapons. Charlie and they are not signing on for liberation treaty. Who has the stronger military . Nisid the indians do, by far. Its a much more powerful military. And also, the Pakistani Military has never won a war. They have lost every single war they have had with india. The Nuclear Weapons give them a major deterrent, but they are still outgunned. Charlie it used to be that the indians were an ally of the soviet union and the United States was an ally of pakistan. Nisid this is something pakistan decided early on. In 1947, they were pitching the u. S. As a ally. They said, look at where we are on the map, we will be your bulwark against communism in southwest asia. Thats something pakistani generals ever since then have played upon. And the u. S. Has bought into this at various points over the years. We have better relations with india today because we realized all these billions in aid and military equipment that they were sending to pakistan is designed mostly to defend themselves against india, not to fight militants. Charlie how does afghanistan play into this . Nisid afghanistan is an area of contrast. Any conflict in india they would be able to fall back into a friendly afghanistan if need be. They also fear encirclement and indian influence in kabul that would work against them in the case of a conflict. Charlie but its more than that. Its not an irrational fear because the indians have set up consulates and Everything Else in afghanistan, trying to make sure that if the taliban take part, when they will have influence with the taliban and somehow try to counterpoint the pakistani influence with the taliban. Nisid its an important country for india as well. They are building roads, Training Afghan officials. Very innocent. Pakistanis see this suspiciously. But india can make a good case for meeting that role in needing to have a role in afghanistan. Charlie did they ever get over the midnight furies . Nisid the Pakistan Military establishment has not. The idea of the world shaped by that has not really changed. I think most indians and pakistanis, more than 98 of citizens on both sides were born after partition. Some have heard stories, and india is a huge country. My family is from western india. None of them were affected by the partition. These are just stories they read about in newspapers or the history books. A lot of people have moved on. Charlie you would think in the history since 1947 there would have been politicians who would have made it their lifes work to make the situation better, to find a way to eliminate all the things unleashed by the midnight furies. Nisid you would think, and everyone knows what needs to be done. There was talk about opening trade lanes and infrastructure. Everyone knows this is what needs to be done and it would benefit both countries. But its too easy. The Pakistani Military benefits too much from the stalemate. There are demagogues from both sides and nationalists who dont have any interest in compromise. The loudest voices tend to win out. It happens in the u. S. As well. Charlie what do you think of india as a democracy . I mean by that it is the Worlds Largest democracy. Nisid it is, and it is a thriving one. Charlie it has a lot of problems with corruption and other issues. Nisid hes pitching it as an india not defined by caste, that it will be defined by opportunity. Indians across the country they all want the same thing, jobs, development, and modernity. I think hes right in that, he would be smart to stick with that as his message. The danger is that much of his support is a hindu nationalist base. They have gone off on various campaigns to reconvert muslims and so forth. They are a distraction to his agenda. He has not been quite quick enough to put a stop to it. Charlie youve had the nehru family, the gandhi family at one time in power or the other. There is now a young you may very well when win, but where does he stand politically . Nisid not very strong. Hes a fairly diffident politician. Its not clear if he wants to be running party. Charlie and his mother maintains her power over the party . Nisid yes. It is ironic this is not the Congress Party that nehru would have wanted to see. Nehru himself was wary of hero worship. He wrote an article under a pseudonym in his younger days warning against congress followers heaping too much praise on him and turning him into a potential dictator. Charlie like george washington. Nisid exactly. The idea that his errors would be trying to run the country based on nothing but their name, i think would have appalled him. Charlie what likelihood is there that there would be a coming together . Would Benazir Bhutto have made a difference . Nisid its hard to say. I think what is interesting now is you notice china is getting much more involved in the al region. Charlie how are they getting involved other than Investment Sacco investments . Nisid they need stability in pakistan. They are worried about islamic extremism themselves and worried about it coming out of pakistan. They would like to see better relations. Charlie they wouldnt want perfect because . Nisid it suits them to have india a little bit distracted. Charlie because there has been in the tea. Emnity. Whats amazing to me, the chinese are scared of islamic extremism. Europe is scared of islamic extremism. Parts of the middle east are scared of islamic extremism. Everybody is scared of islamic extremism. They can get together on a strategy and policy to do something about islamic extremism. Nisid the pakistanis admitted. They admit that islamic extremism is the central threat in pakistan. Charlie every country says that. Its the dilemma of our time. I dont know why they cant come together. Nisid its different in every country. In pakistan, while they are worried about this, they are still releasing other militants after a few days in jail because they serve their purposes. They think they can control them and theyre afraid if they go after them too hard, they will face a multifront were. Face a multifront war. If they go after them too hard, they will face a multifront war. Charlie the man behind the hotel bombings in mumbai has been released. Released on bail. Do we know where he is . Nisid he is openly living in pakistan right now. They say its the legal system theres not much more they can do without more evidence from the indians, and so forth. You look at afghanistan as well. Ties are warm. They talked about cooperating on security. Charlie they are better than they were 10 years ago. Nisid yes, they have gone after militant strongholds in parts of the rebel areas. The Haqqani Network, the Afghan Taliban charlie they have not gone after the Haqqani Network . Nisid not where anyone can point to and show any real evidence. Some of them are coming to the negotiating table. Charlie what do you think will happen in afghanistan . Nisid i think its just going to be more of the same. If pakistan really wanted to push them to the negotiating table, they could deny them safe haven. That would greatly impede charlie this is not a part of the book, but do you believe pakistan new . Knew . Not necessarily the Prime Minister or the chief of staff of the army. They wouldve been embarrassed by it, among other things. The fact that he was there and they didnt know about it and , that they invaded their sovereignty to get it. Nisid i think it was the latter that embarrassed them more. I think it was just trying to make themselves look better. You cannot keep a conspiracy thats big that silent for that long in any country. I think indias future is fairly bright. Charlie the Economic Growth do nine the Economic Growth nisid absolutely they need to make big changes, but they are all within their power to do. Pakistan is a little more unclear, because they havent been able to come to grips with the ideological nature of the threat against them. They can say were going after these militants because they are criminals. Until you eradicate the idea that islamic extremism is some kind of patriotic act, it will never be finished. Charlie and you cant tell cant talk politics without talking about kashmir. Nisid you try to draw the map of kashmir in any book and the censors will come with a black pen and mark it out. Charlie was this fun to do . Nisid it was fascinating. Being deep in the archives handling telegrams from Western Church hill and so forth. Charlie he said pakistan is the worlds most dangerous country. A combustible this makes of Nuclear Weapons. M mix of Nuclear Weapons. You can only truly understand the country by going to its roots. Its a powerful, intelligent, and beautifully written book. The violence is now directed onto the global stage. Thank you for coming. Pleasure to have you here. Nisid thank you. Rishaad it is friday and this is trending business. Rishaad we are going to be in sydney and tokyo this hour but here is a look at what we are watching. Chinese jobs slumping once again. Regulators announced an investigation into possible market manipulation. Australian miners are taking a beating as prices keep falling. Iron ore falling to less than 40 as supply increases. Japan aims to hike the sales tax and 14. The finance minister and 14 in 2014. The finance ministers is that is the plan unless something happened. It is not a nice ride if you are a chinese shareholder. David you have the bump up midtuesday so if you measure it from friday we are down 11 to 12 from the regional benchmark. You look at these on the china index and those are being crushed this week. Lets get the chinese index there we go. 4 down. The index, at the start of june it was at 4000. It is underwater in a matter of