My husband, my friend, my colleague, and chief White House Correspondent for the New York Times. Karen, is the Senior National respondent and the u. S. Columnist for the Financial Times. I am delighted to be welcoming all of you to charlie rose tonight. We are all delighted to be standing in his stead. I cannot think of a better group to talk about the Trump Administration and Foreign Policy. This is the beginning of this big second leg of his overseas adventures as president. Peter, what do you think about what happened today in poland . This was a major moment i think for President Trump. Peter the choice of poland is instructive. Why does he go to poland before meeting with Vladimir Putin in germany . He goes to poland to reassure central and Eastern Europeans who have been dubious about his expressed friendship with the president of russia and feel the need for reassurance. He gave what his staff wanted him to give them, a robust speech in the center of warsaw. Very propolish, and he said russia needed to be confronted on destabilizing activity in ukraine and syria. By the end of the day, he had a press conference where he was not on script and seemed to get a different message. He was asked again, do you believe russia meddled in the election last year and what would you do about it . He said i think it was russia, it could have been some other countries, nobody knows for sure. Again, casting doubt on it. And attacking president obama for not doing more about it even though President Trump is not sure it happened. And then he mentioned the iraq war intelligence fiasco. These mixed messages are an interesting product of his first day. Susan it is the full spectrum of donald trump. You have the obsessive, micromanaging partisan figure. And then this bombastic speech. I want to ask you about this speech. Donald trump seems to have embraced the full on clash of civilizations rhetoric in this speech. Did you hear anything new in what he had to say . No, but the context of where he gave the speech. The first stop in europe is poland, warsaw, where they had the law and Justice Party government that is right wing. Catholic, rightwing government. They refuse to allow muslim refugees. The European Union is suing poland because it is in breach of european rules. They very much share the antiglobalist, steve bannon sort of worldview that i think trump expressed strongly in his speech. The speech talked of western civilization being under an existential challenge. He mentioned western civilization several times. The word democracy does not appear anywhere. Remember, the venue he chose is an illiberal democracy. I would say this is a speech without mentioning her name aimed squarely at Angela Merkel. I do not share your worldview, this is not my worldview. My worldview is western civilization first, if you like, sort of an acknowledgment of america first. Susan do you think this was aimed at merkel or Vladimir Putin . Did trump manage to send a message to russia and a message to our nervous allies that we were still on their side . Karen i think part of the speech was obviously aimed at putin and nato members. He did do the obligatory support of article five. He did say russia needs to watch what it is doing and stop threatening the west. But i do think, as ed said, the crux of the speech was the clash of civilizations. The clash he outlined was the west versus dangers out there, which he mostly defined as terrorism and extremists. But it was also his part of the west and polands part of the west, with merkels part of the west. He said faith and family are more important than government and bureaucracy. He said the question is whether the west has the will to survive. And then he made it clear what that will meant for him. It meant being antiimmigration. It meant standing up for values. But those values were not values of globalization, and the kind of values we consider in recent years as part of the west. He drew a really firm line in what was a pretty dark speech. Susan somebody said it is the european carnage speech, the bookend to the american carnage inaugural. Im glad that you brought it up. To me, that sounds a lot like Vladimir Putins definition of the west. He often speaks in very similar terms about traditional values and our war against terrorism. He defines russia in those terms as allied with that kind of west. I was really struck by that. The themes donald trump is sounding are not the kind of themes that would be naturally reassuring to western allies in europe but are similar ideologically to those of Vladimir Putin. Peter, do you think if this speech was meant to shore up nervous allies in nato and Eastern Europe that he succeeded in doing that . Peter probably not. It would take more than one speech. They understand this was a prescripted text he was given and he approved and delivered. As we have seen in the past, it does not necessarily stand the test of time as policies defining his administration going forward. I think you are right about the connection between the way Vladimir Putin defines our shared values is a place of commonality for the two of them to talk about tomorrow. You did not hear Angela Merkel say that when they met today. In fact, you saw mostly stony silence as the two of them appeared. Ed, i think you wrote the leader of the liberal world order will be hosting the president of the United States. Angela merkel has emerged as a dominant player in this conversation. That is a meeting you almost wish you were a fly on the wall for as much as the putin one. Ed there are two wests here in competition. There is one Angela Merkel is standing up for, a rulesbased global order. And is increasingly de facto being seen as the leader of. And then there is this more bannonite one. Your point about checking the boxes on article 5 of nato and asking russia to stand back in terms of hostilities in eastern ukraine, these were two sentences and one sentence respectively in a fivepage speech about western civilization. Those were the things the National Security side insisted trump sign off on. The rest was him. Peter this seemed out of the blue although there have been a number of sessions and negotiations going on behind the scenes. Karen theoretically, we have no talks with russia at all. The russians said they handheld they canceled the d confliction talks. The deconfliction talks. American officials said the talks are better than ever and going on all the time. One thing trump said before he came into office is he thought the United States and russia should cooperate against the Islamic State. That has gotten buried under all the other conflict with russia. I think tillerson is trying to revive that, not only because to the administration it seems like the right thing to do, but because of what is going on in syria on the ground. You have all of a sudden assad with his allies, russia and iran, taking off away from Populated Areas in the west toward Eastern Syria where the Islamic State is while the United States to the north of that around the Islamic State capital in syria moving against the Islamic State. Those forces are getting closer and closer together. Rather than warning off assad, russia, iran, we said lets cooperate. Lets make sure we dont run into each other. I think that is what tillerson is saying, that should be the subject of the talks between putin and trump. The white house has said nothing about what they want to talk about. Will that be the subject of their talks . I dont think we know. Susan i want to get everybody on this question. I personally am perplexed everyday. People ask about trumps Foreign Policy. I dont know what it is. In particular, on russia. I think if you put a gun to the head of a Trump White House official, they cannot tell you right now what our policy is toward russia. What do you think about that, karen . You have thought about trying to write about trump and Foreign Policy. Do you think he has one yet . Karen i think there are pieces of policy, but i am not sure they come together in terms of a strategy. I think they would like to get rid of some of what they call the sort of minor issues, the housekeeping issues, in terms of we took over their compound under the Obama Administration in this country, they wont let us build a new consulate in st. Petersburg. Russian security under obama was harassing u. S. Diplomats they would like to get rid of all that stuff, so you have had lower level talks that have dealt with those issues. Susan that is not really policy. Karen but they feel like they need russia. I think they still believe, as trump said during the campaign, that it does not make sense to have bad relations with russia. I think most of europe would agree with that as long as we hold firm in ukraine and to a certain extent in syria. I think the ukraine issue is really important. I dont think the Administration Knows what they want to do about ukraine. Trump has been all over the map talking about it or not talking about it at all. You see other officials in the administration that have been very firm saying this will not stand, russian incursion in ukraine. The annexation of crimea is still according to europe and officially the United States, that is bedrock strategy. I am not sure it is bedrock for the Trump Administration. Peter what does he say to putin about the meddling in last years elections the first time the two of them have met since the intelligence agencies of the United States told President Trump the russian president directly ordered the meddling in last years election to benefit President Trump and his election . He was asked about this today at a press conference. Not only did he cast doubt again on the idea russia was behind it, but he sounded angry at obama for not doing enough about it. Or the intelligence agencies for overstating it. Karen also he also picked up the fight he has picked on several occasions with the u. S. Intelligence community. On iraq, they were wrong, why do we think they are right now . Peter that is reversing and rewinding to before he got here. Susan he was saying it was not 17, it was only four. By the way, he was wrong about that, just to be clear. Peter he was right in the sense he said who even knows if there are 17. There are 17 intelligence agencies led by the officer of one. It is a large issue he does not seem to be that worried about. Susan they are meeting in germany with the new leader of the free world. She was hosting this. She obviously intended for this to be a very different kind of meeting. They settle on these things far in advance. Lets talk about the g20. It is an hamburg. It is the capital in many ways of the german left. Merkel thought she would be bringing together the worlds industrialized nations to talk leading about their unprecedented cooperation on climate change, to talk about strengthening Global Economic cooperation. Instead, as far as i understand it, her advisors were begging trump not to make his decision about the paris accord, not to pull out in advance of this. They did not want to rain on the parade. How did it help or hurt her in her efforts to become reelected as chancellor of germany . Ed this will be the third time she meets. She came here earlier in the year. He met her in may at the g7 summit in sicily. He did not give the speech on nato people wanted him to give. In brussels at the nato headquarters. He did not make the article 5 pledge on mutual defense. A few days later, he made it here, rather grudgingly standing next to the romanian Prime Minister. She has made it clear she has kind of washed her hands of him. She has taken his measure. She said our fate in europe is in our own hands. America has gone off the reservation. Britain has exited. I think the action here in hamburg, in addition to the protests on the street, the action is in the bilateral rather than the g20 communique. What kind of communique can you have when the global priorities such as Global Warming and free trade are things trump does not want to sign up to . The real action is the trumpputin bilateral, but equally importantly, arguably more importantly, is the second meeting between trump and xi jinping because that relationship is going south. Peter interesting time. North korea just tested an icbm for the first time. President trump is saying he will take severe measures in response. He had dinner thursday night with the Prime Minister of south korea and the Prime Minister of japan, but not with president xi jinping because he has gone somewhat sour on the chinese president s ability to influence north korea. Ed the feeling of perplexment is a large club of people. Susan let me ask you about the europeans before we turn back to asia. Merkel, despite the rhetoric, can she be the leader of the free world . The germans are almost constitutionally wired not to take a position of unilateral leadership. They embed themselves in the multilateral institutions like the e. U. , that was their passive response to the cold war, to the new institutions built after world war ii. They are not going to step up into some american vacuum. Emmanuel macron seems he is doing his best to troll trump, but i do not see him as a leader that can challenge america. Ed i agree with the premise of your question. She can be the moral, spiritual spokesman for western global liberal values. There will not be a german navy patrolling the south china sea. Clearly the hard power element of it is american and american only. I think she is clearly the leader, the spokesperson for the values those who oppose trump support. I was mentioning the club of the perplexed. A colleague of mine at the Financial Times gave a speech for the canadian Prime Minister saying we will have to chart our own sovereign course here. Susan let me bring you in on this question of the north korea crisis. You read some headlines and they are alarming. This notion we are talking about the possibility of a military response and how horrific that would be. Are there additional measures, short of the military option, that people agree is basically unthinkable, for escalating our response to north korean aggression . Karen i think there is widespread agreement that a military response is unthinkable. Secretary mattis has pretty much said that. He has said this would spark an immediate north korean attack on south korea, and it would be, as he said, a war like we have never seen in our lifetimes. The question is, what else can they do . There was a Security Council meeting yesterday at the united nations. I think the western powers at least made it clear they want new resolutions for new sanctions, and they want to make sure the sanctions we already have are adhered to. One of the problems, and trumps lightbulb seems to have gone off that after having said his china policy was to be friends with china because china was the way to crack down on north korea, he has acknowledged now that has not happened. And in fact as he noted yesterday or today, chinese trade with north korea despite new sanctions at the end of the year has increased by 40 . So the question is now, do they start sanctioning some of the people in china and some of the Chinese Companies carrying out this trade . I think certainly the americans, the brits, the french, are willing to do that at this point. And there is also a push to start talks, basically to say the policy now is denuclearization has to precede talks. That was the policy of the Obama Administration and theoretically the policy of the Trump Administration. Is there anything to talk about before this large precondition is met, which is basically you give up and we will talk to you . I think there may be some movement in that direction. First of all will come more sanctions. Susan it is a large diplomatic undertaking for an administration that does not yet have a fully formed state department, that does not seem interested in being coercive in International Diplomacy and coalitions. Can they pull this off . Do they have anyone in charge of the north korean crisis . Karen they have a state Department Envoy in charge of relations with north korea. He has been traveling around. There were secret talks held in oslo earlier this year that ultimately led to the unfortunate situation with otto warmbier, the american hostage in north korea, being released and his death. You do not see the National Security council staffed up the beyond this one envoy office. I think that is increasingly a problem as crises spread across the world. You dont have people in place who can deal with them. Peter, all of this turmoil we susan susan peter, all of this turmoil we have read about inside the white house, when