Im pleased to have admiral mullen back at this table. Welcome. Adm. Mullen it is good to be back. Charlie how is retirement . Adm. Mullen it has been terrific. It was best put by the younger of my two sons when somebody asks him about that. He says my dad has about half the schedule and 2 of the stress. [laughter] adm. Mullen i thought that was a pretty good formula. It has been good. Im teaching at princeton in the fall. Im teaching a course on the use of u. S. Military power and u. S. Diplomatic power and getting the right balance. Im on a couple of boards General Motors and sprint. Deborah and i spend a lot of time with veterans and their families on the issues that are challenging them. These extraordinary young men and women who have served so nobly for decades, but certainly the ones that were very close to us in these two wars. Charlie every person that i admire that served with distinction in the pentagon, as an officer or as someone appointed by the president like secretary of defense, has always come away and their most important thought is how well did i do for the men and women fighting for america . That is the single thing, and i take them at their word, that burns in their soul. Adm. Mullen i think that is true for everybody. Charlie it seems to me that this time we live in right now is as difficult as we have seen in a while. Adm. Mullen it certainly, from my perspective i came in during the vietnam war in the late 1960s and have watched us move through very challenging times. It is as complex as anything i have seen. It is as uncertain as anything i have seen. I think the United States is in a position where we cannot do it alone anymore. I think we are also continuing to devolve out of the cold war out of that bipolar, freeze the world relationship we had with the soviets then, which when the wall came down, that devolution started. I think there are still vestiges of that very much a part of what is going on. Charlie i just returned from syria. I had a conversation with president assad. Last week, i was there. You see this very interesting circumstances which iran and america on one side and iraq not coordinating and not working together. You saw that in tikrit where they had pulled back and iraq seemed to be insisting on that. There is real worry on the part of people in iraq that iran will flex its muscle which is being used there in some permanent relationship. Adm. Mullen i think that is a great worry. I think where iran clearly is now in iraq is a place that none of us anticipated they would be so strongly and i think that was also facilitated by isis. Charlie by the threat of isis or adm. Mullen i mean by isis being in iraq. That is what generated the force flow of iranians into iraq. Effectively, iran has become the defense minister writ large for what is going on in that country. At the core of this becomes this whole issue of can shia and sunni figure out how to live together . And what leadership are there leaders in the world particularly arab leaders, that can figure this out . As iran gets stronger in these countries you see saudi arabia now striking in yemen very specifically. There is this historic tension between iran and saudi arabia. Charlie and the houthi rebels. Adm. Mullen in the complexity of whos on whose side is very representative of how difficult these issues in that part of the world. Charlie what role do we play . Adm. Mullen my own view of this is we have to stay engaged. We have friends in that part of the world. Clearly, the saudis are concerned about any deal we make with iran. I think we have to work hard to make sure we can alleviate those concerns. We will, i believe and i think the president said again today we will never walk away from israel. We will always be there for them in support of them in whatever they need in terms of their security. They are our closest ally in that part of the world. I think we have to stay engaged. I do worry it is not just us. This deal, the framework is a p5 plus one. There are six countries involved. This is not just for the United States. I think leaders throughout the world charlie that includes russia. Adm. Mullen that is true. And china. So, theres what they have done, in a way, the deal could be a signature effort in terms of how do you address issues in that part of the world . A good friend of mine said three or four years ago if you think the sectarian violence in iraq was bad, and it was, stand by for syria. It is worse. So, what charlie there is a sunni majority and the alawites are 10 or 15 . Right now, they have the power. Adm. Mullen there is a big question about what if they lost that power, what would happen to them . If you look at what happened in iraq for instance in terms of shia going after Sunni Charlie that led to the rise of isis. Adm. Mullen thats right. Is Something Like this, the p5 plus one or the right leaders at the table on what is going on in syria right now a way to get at stopping the killing in that part of the world, in syria. When you have countries i believe we could not get iran for a long time anywhere close without putin and russia. I think the same is true in syria. Is there a way to frame a political outcome through negotiations with leaders from those countries very difficult relationships in some cases to include turkey, to include possibly iran, to include hezbollah. Charlie in order to stop the killing, you need to negotiate a political outcome and if you negotiate a political outcome, you need to include all these countries who have a reason to sit at the table. Adm. Mullen and generate a strategic view of ok, this is how we will get at it and then deploy the diplomacy and, if necessary, deploy the military inside a strategy. Charlie deploy what military . Adm. Mullen i think that becomes a question of how it is going. I think from a standpoint of lets say the 40,000 arab force, putting that together. Certainly, i believe and i think many people believe they need to lead on this. There is support that we could provide. We have the best, the most capable force in the world right now. We have been through a lot. There are a lot of things we could do to help get that to the military outcome inside this strategic framework. Charlie you need a political solution in syria. It seems to me we have clearly had to make a decision that the removal of assad was not the primary priority. Adm. Mullen i think that is true. That said, the long term i think we need to take a long view, by the way long term, i dont think assad will last. I dont think that should be the principal objective of interaction there now. Charlie for those rebels and those people that demand assads removal before they negotiate, that is a nonstarter. Because he has the power. Adm. Mullen absolutely. I think that also becomes part of how do you get to a political outcome that everybody agrees to and then how do you enforce it . Those are very tough and complex issues. I dont know how syria concludes right now. It is just getting worse and worse. I dont know how it comes together in a way that stops the killing, restores the millions of refugees to their homes and starts to generate some kind of stability there without the political, diplomatic, economic as well as military capabilities coming together. Not just lets hit them with the military and see how it comes out. We have done that too many times and i would argue it had not come out that well. Charlie lets turn to russia and ukraine. Where are we there . Adm. Mullen i dont think we are in a good place. I have worried about russia and, particularly president putin for a long time. Charlie because . Adm. Mullen when i was Commanding Officer of a United States navy cruiser in the 1990s, i took my ship up in the early 1990s when it was really bad. The ruble was worth less than a penny and it was going down every day. There was nothing on the shelves. The people that were there were desperate about their future. What strikes me in retrospect, going back to that timeframe is when the cold war ended, what we did was we gloated. We didnt do what we did after world war ii which was focused on germany and japan and restoring it. We gloated. Many russians remember that. Charlie especially putin. Adm. Mullen especially president putin. He comes into power in 2000. He is resourced heavily because of the energy shift in the world and the bountiful energy they had. He saved the country. Here is a man whos got a terrible demographic problem terrible infrastructure problem. His economy is in really bad shape which has doubled because of the sanctions and the oil. Yet, he is an important player in the world. I worry that we have got him actually cornered and it is not going to get better. Charlie if he is cornered, how is he likely to respond . Adm. Mullen with strength, with abject military power or certainly he has adopted charlie do you think he wanted this or saw an opportunity to do something he had long wanted which was to grab crimea, but he did not want to be in the place he is right now with the separatists in ukraine and all it has brought down on him . And he is looking for a way out. Adm. Mullen we need to figure out if there is a way out. I also think he is an individual who responds to strength. He needs to know you cannot do this anymore. I used to take a temperature about how russia was going with my baltic counterparts that led their militaries. On their best day, they were nervous. I cannot imagine how nervous they are right now when you have countries that have 25 of the population speaking russian. Charlie in those countries, we are committed, if they are a member of nato, to their defense. Adm. Mullen we are indeed. Charlie everybody i have talked to in the administration say they will stand by that. Adm. Mullen i think if we did not do that, it would fundamentally break nato apart. That is the essence of what nato is. Charlie if he moves into a nato country, we will respond. You say we need to fight strength with strength. How do we do that that we have not done that . What is your criticism of what we have done before or how have we not been as tough as we might have to get his attention . Adm. Mullen i was when i was chairman, the russians went into georgia. I was taken in conversations and what was written back then by the essence of what georgia and ukraine are to russia. On the western side, what the western view is that these are countries that want to come into nato, towards the west. We are at the heart of where russia started. I think we need to be very careful about opening those doors or being forceful about pushing them in that direction. Charlie it was wrong to encourage a nato expansion into certain parts of the eastern end of europe . Adm. Mullen i thought we were accelerating that far beyond charlie and it scared him. Adm. Mullen absolutely. This is his homeland. The russian empire started in kiev. When you Start Talking about kiev being into nato, it is like putting a hot poker in there. We have now started to rotate forces into Eastern Europe rotational forces, u. S. Forces as well as nato. I think we need to stick with that. I think we need to be very careful about any rhetoric with respect to removal of u. S. Forces from europe. I think nato i worked long and hard as this president did president bush and others, to get nato countries to spend more on defense. They dont. I think nato has to recalibrate itself in terms of how they will provide security for their own country as well as nato given the change that is there. I think it is where we were headed with russia, we are in a completely different position. I have spoken for the last several years one of my worries and i partially negotiated the new start treaty for Nuclear Weapons. One of my concerns is we get this so wrong that somehow we bring the Nuclear Weapons, the weapons of mass destruction, back into play. President putin in the last two or three weeks has mentioned Nuclear Weapons twice. Charlie that he was prepared to go on Nuclear Alert about crimea. Which seems like adm. Mullen ok, i think it is crazy. Charlie you have to ask yourself is he serious . Why is he serious . Adm. Mullen i think he is serious because he is caged at an 80 approval level in his own country. Charlie the assassination of nemtsov what signal did that send . Adm. Mullen i mean, i was not shocked. Charlie a political assassination. Adm. Mullen i dont know the facts. I worry a great deal about not knowing the facts, but i was not surprised what came out of chechnya in terms of the possibility of originating there. So, i think that is part of the control. He has great control of that country right now. He is somebody that is formidable and that i think we have to figure out how to deal with. Charlie at the same time, china is developing a better relationship with him. Hes sending a whole bunch of energy over there. What is he getting for it . Adm. Mullen back to my early 1990s this has been evolutionary, not just what has happened in the last year or two. Again, i think if we get this wrong. Charlie get what wrong . Adm. Mullen if we are unable to reach out to him and figure out a way forward that is peaceful and recognizes the challenges and the needs on both sides, but essentially to a point where he stops doing what he is doing and back to him being in a corner, i think we almost weld a relationship between him and china. That is not a relationship that is easy historically. It is not natural. Charlie it was kissinger who did the reverse when he drove a wedge between that relationship by recognizing china. Adm. Mullen i think there is an opportunity to make sure that does not happen. I think the two of them aligned against us for the next 50 or 60 years is a very bad outcome, not just for us, but in the world. So, i worry about that as the totality of the impact of not having a relationship with putin right now. Charlie here is what you seem to be saying as a military man who spent his life in the military, rose to the highest job you can have, chairman of the joint chiefs, you are saying were not doing enough diplomacy. That is the problem. Adm. Mullen yes, and we have been through a lot. I dont sign up to this we are tired and cannot do anything. Charlie there are a lot of fronts here. Adm. Mullen that is correct. This is the essence of the course i put together at princeton because we have been using the military too much and we have not been able to deploy the other forces of government to generate outcomes as we used to do. Charlie that is bob gates idea, too. Adm. Mullen believe me, im tired of living with the answer ok, lets pull out the gun and see what happens. The gun may be a part of the solution but i wanted a part of a strategy, not just hope. Charlie i assume the cry is we ought to be arming the ukrainians, sending bigger and better weapons to them. Not troops, but better weapons. Would you be resistant to that . Because it fuels the flame . Adm. Mullen it is there is risk associated with this as there we have the same discussion about do we arm our friends in syria or individuals this question of whos got them and how will they be used . Charlie whose hands they will fall into. Adm. Mullen exactly. In some cases, you have to take that risk. On the other side of that, there are individuals in ukraine or syria that dont understand why we arent there to help them in that regard given what they are up against. The longer this takes, the more difficult those decisions become. Charlie lets go back to syria for a second. A lot of people look back at that point in which the moderate forces were begging for weapons and people like john mccain, at the same time, Hillary Clinton and bob gates and David Petraeus were saying we ought to do this. The president made a decision not to, basically saying it was a fantasy. Was it a fantasy . Adm. Mullen im not sure. First of all, im reluctant to talk about a time i was not there and did not know the facts. Charlie you know a lot more about it than most people. Adm. Mullen i think what we find ourselves in now that we have arrived in the position where we are providing some weapons is had we done that earlier, the potential is there to have a bigger impact than it does now. Charlie they could have built up a moderate force in opposition. Adm. Mullen i think so. Even at the time this discussion was going on, this idea of what was the Free Syrian Army . There were a lot of views of who they were. Charlie what is your view . Adm. Mullen they were more coherent a couple of years ago than they are now because of what has happened. Charlie isis has rose. There are some who argue that assad wanted to see the rise of isis because he wanted the circumstance in syria to be this either me or isis, not its me or moderate reformers. Adm. Mullen im not sure i would give him that much credit. Charlie you dont think he is that adm. Mullen im not sure i would give him that much credit, thats all. Charlie because most of the bombing adm. Mullen yeah, yeah. Charlie some say he used more of his force against the moderate forces than he did against isis as they were rising to power and that is one of the reasons they rose. You dont give him that much credit . Adm. Mullen im just not. I think that may be analytically viewed in hindsight to have some kind of value. As i recall, going in and being on the front end of this, there was never any discussion. Charlie in the near term, he has to stay in power because he adm. Mullen i think he will stay in power. Charlie what do you think china wants militarily . Adm. Mullen i think china would like to see us leave the area. Leave that part of the world. I think they would like to become the dominant force in that part of the world. Charlie we have to recognize they have significant influence in the region and they have to recognize we have significant friends in the region like india, japan, south korea. Adm. Mullen believe me, i think if we picked up and left, they would be happy campers. That said, we are not going to do that. We have too many friends. It is such a critical part of the world from many perspectives, but economically that is the engine india, china, asia, american i have talked about it being the century of the pacific. The 21st century. It has to be stable. Charlie can it be the century of the pacific and still be an American Century or not . Is that a zerosum game . Adm. Mullen i dont think it is zerosum. I think the question on china is, as it has been for some time, are they going to be constructive in their evolution . If that is the case and they develop a military and they do it in a way that makes a difference on the positive side, thats certainly a potential outcome. If it is the other way around, it becomes destructive. They are going to have a very difficult time getting where they need to go economically if they have a destructive military fo