From our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. We begin with ongoing coverage of the isis threat to iraq and the change of government. U. S. Air strikes continued for the sixth day. The u. S. , britain and france have been delivering food and water to thousands of yazidis on mount sinjar. Refugees remain stand it stranded. The pentagon has sent 130 more advisors to Northern Iraq to plan the evacuation of the yazidis. A senior white house official acknowledged the possibility of using american troops to assist iraqis in the rescue of the yazidi refugees. The white house is careful to say there is a difference between using forces in a humanitarian operation. Joining me from washington, brett mcgurk, u. S. Deputy assistant secretary of state for iraq and iran. He served as adviser to the u. S. Ambassador to iraq. I am pleased to have him on this program. Welcome. And you tell me, there is a New York Times report that said the United States may be prepared to send u. S. Troops are rescue refugees . I havent seen that report but what that is probably referring to is a commitment that the president has addressed the American People, that we are committed to breaking the siege of mount sinjar where thousands of innocent people, yazidis, are trapped on this mountain, surrounded by isil terrorists. We have been doing airstrikes on the north side of that mountain. Those strikes have been very effective. They have allowed a lot of them to get off the mountain. We are now actively undergoing an assessment to determine how many people are left and what we can do. You are basically saying we will do everything we have to do to get these refugees to safety. Charlie, the helicopter that crashed tragically yesterday, it was an Iraqi Air Force helicopter eyelid by piloted by an iraqi pilot. There was a yazidi member of parliament. They were there to deliver aid and rescue the yazidis. What we have seen over the last 10 days is a historic level of military cooperation between the government in baghdad and the Kurdish Forces in the north. That is going to continue. We are in active discussions with our partners to organize an effort to get these people to safety. Let me move to the new government. It has been a Central Point of the president s position on iraq that you need a government that will be inclusive and rally support from all sectors of the population. Do you have that government now . The government is not in place yet. The government was certified about a week after the attack in basel. The timeline has a number of steps to form a government. They have to name a speaker and a president. That sets off a timeline to nominate a new prime minister. That is what happened yesterday. They now have 30 days to form a cabinet. And develop a National Program to govern iraq through 2018. He will present that cabinet and the National Program to the parliament. We hope to get this done within the 30 day timeline. Of course we are urging them to go as fast as possible. Is this likely, that sunnis in iraq who may have been prepared to support isis or had been supporting isis might now turn against them if there is a government in baghdad that they believe in . We are trying to drive that wedge. We are working very hard with sunni tribal leaders as we speak. I think there is signs that that is succeeding. You also have to address the fact that isil is able to dominate in these areas and remains a difficult challenge. Can you stop them if you dont drive that went . The wages part of it. The president has said we have to have a National Government that we can work with very closely. The constitutional requirements for both a cabinet and a National Program. The doctor will present the National Program to the parliament. That will be designed to pull the country together and govern the state. I am particularly interested in this your assessment of isil or isis, how much can they sustain . We sent some of our best special forces teams to do a real hardcore assessment. We have a baseline assumption that isis, isil, it is interchangeable, isil is better equipped, better manned, better resourced come a better fighters, better trained than the al qaeda in iraq that our forces faced. If you accept that and look at the capacity of the Iraqi Security forces or tribal networks, you start to see the big gap that is going to have to be filled. It is a tremendous challenge. When you look at isils, the goal is to establish a goal that was they are trying to establish a state. They do it by attacking the shia civilian population centers. What they are trying to do is provoke a reaction by shia militias which zarqawi wrote in 2004. Make the shia show their fangs and unite the sunni ranks behind our masses. That is what he is trying to do. At the same time, they attack and kill any sunni tribal leaders in their way in syria and iraq. As we have seen in the last 10 days, they will take on the kurds to establish what they need to establish their state. What we need to do is harness the forces of all these groups. There is a common enemy here. The cooperation we are seeing among the Iraqi Government and the Kurdish Forces including the Iraqi Air Force providing tactical air support for Kurdish Forces engaged in combat, which is a fairly extraordinary thing, we want to keep that cooperation going. It is going to require all communities in iraq to come together on a common plan. We are working very hard on it. If they do, we can provide them some assistance and support. There are those who have argued and made this point, that bin laden argued with any job just, jihadist, do not try to create an Islamic State and that i got a baghdadi has gone too fast too far. Does that resonate with you . Yes. Baghdadi is also very shrewd. He doesnt get ahead of the capacity of his organization. He timed the announcement to a point at which it would breed local resistance. Sunni arabs in iraq are not naturally inclined to be part of some extremist caliphate based on a doctrine of seventh century islam. The capacity of isil and their ability to subjugate local populations was such that there hasnt been the kind of local resistance that you might have seen a year ago. Where there has been local resistance, it has been crushed. It has been crushed with isil fighters putting heads on spikes. This is what they do to intimidate local populations. Dottie is very shrewd that we are shrewd too. We are working with them now on what is going to be a longterm plan. We have to deny space and oxygen for this group to flourish. That will require supporting a rockys iraqis. It will require working with turkey and other International Partners to shut down the flow of foreign fighters. This organization is swollen and is going to be longterm. One reason we want to get an Iraqi Government is to engage and work with that government to do things that they will need to do to push back. Do you have an opinion on the idea that if there had been more support for syrian rebels, that isis would never be where it is today . I know there are different views on that. I leave it to historians. We are dealing with the situation we have. As i said, it is trying to help the iraqis control sovereign territory and that means harnessing security structures and local populations to protect their people and make sure that isis cant establish a governing zone of authority. Can you help me understand, what other possible options for the United States to help stop isis beyond what it is doing now . One example would be sending more sophisticated military equipment to the government. That is part of it and we are doing a lot of that. When the president spoke to the American People in june, we moved very expeditiously after mosul fell. It was very difficult to know what was happening. It was full of rumors and friction. The president moved to deploy special forces teams in and around baghdad to get an eyeson look at the iraqi insurgents. We have a much better picture now of this organization and what it might take and we are working very closely with the iraqis on equipment. They definitely want more training. That is something we have to work with the new government on. In the north, we have two very limited military missions. It is the first time we have struck isis with some affect. It has proven to be quite effective, particularly on the north side of sin jar mountain. The iraqis have some capacity to do these things. They have a rudimentary capacity to use missiles with real president. Precision. This is not just a military approach. It is a political approach. We are still focusing on getting some political consolidation, getting a National Program in place which can guide us into 2015. What can you do that you are not doing that you will be able to do once the political process has been formalized and crystallized and is operational . Our efforts will be in support of a National Iraqi strategy. That is just essential. Even when we did the surge in early 2007, when president bush went to the American People, it was coming behind an iraqi land. For the u. S. To do things in front of an iraqi design approach is not going to be particularly effective. It is difficult because the political process was right in the middle of the end of one government, having to form another one. Very difficult to get that consolidated national approach. With a new government, we have a real chance to do that through a National Program. It will allow us to come in and support the iraqis in that program. If we were to do things now, without that kind of consolidation, it would prove fairly difficult. When you look at the players today, did we simply misjudge maliki . Did we think he would be more inclusive . Did we think he would reach out to the sunnis . Did we believe he was interested in that kind of iraq . Iraq is so difficult. They are tough guys from a tough place. Maliki has done fairly well when it comes to National Elections in 2010 and in this last election. He does have a locally rooted support base. The country is a very difficult country to govern. We have pressed him extremely hard and made clear when we thought he was doing things that were not particularly useful. About a year ago, our objective was to make sure the elections on april 30 happened. They happen on time with International Supervision and led to a credible result. That was not a foregone conclusion, that that would happen. Maliki delayed elections in the middle of last summer. We spoke out against that. Those elections eventually happened. Our focus was making sure those elections happened, which set up a process for transition. I read a story today and you may not want to comment on this, in which maliki was in some kind of means signing a forces agreement and was supposed to be signing with the president , and just moved his hand over the paper and did not sign it. You were in the room and you said, do not screw around with the american president. I was in the room when that happened. I will leave the anecdotes for some of these books. I was there when that happened. I assume that is a confirming yes but i will go to another question. The president calls you into the oval office. You know more of the players than anybody around. People like petraeus and ron crocker. In todays government, with the experience you have had, the president says to you, tell me the risk here for the United States. What is the threat to our National Security . What do you tell him . Excellent question. We have that conversation. Our interest in the territorial integrity of iraq, is that fundamental . We are looking at u. S. Interest. In iraq, a vital u. S. Interest is at stake. You look at royal, our strategy to take one Million Barrels of oil off the international markets, iranian oil, that had to be replaced somewhere. It was replaced with one Million Barrels of iraqi oil. That is number one. Al qaeda, isil is al qaeda. It is a global jihadist organization. It is swollen with foreign fighters and suicide bombers. In iraq, that there can be up to 50 suicide bombers a month. These are foreign fighters who come into syria to join a global jihad and they are directed to iraq to kill themselves and commit mass murder. That funnel of suicide bombers, they dont say, i am going to do my jihad in iraq. They will go wherever the organization tells them to go. That could be capitals in the region, in europe, and god forbid, it could be here. Also, the expansionist tendencies of iran. Iran definitely has huge influence in iraq. You can see why. We also have some mutual interests with the iranians when it comes to iraq. We have to be mindful of that and pragmatic. It affects our domestic economy and the global economy. The threat of al qaeda to our friends in the region, europe and potentially here, getting a handle on this very dangerous expansionist organization of isil, and of course the expansion of some of the morn a fairy guest tendencies of iran. Everything comes to a head in iraq. If iraq were to implode into civil war or anarchy, the fx would not only be the expansion of global jihadist al qaeda groups, but also a real Economic Impact here in our own gdp at home. We have to be focused on it. The president is focused on it. On top to bottom in the u. S. Government, this has daily attention. As we speak, when i leave here today i will be going to meetings on what to do in the north to roll back some of the isis gains. Brett mcgurk, thank you so much. I hope we can do it again. It is one of the most important National Security concerns in the United States for this moment. We will be right back. Stay with us. We continue with our discussion of the threat proposed by isis. Joining us from washington, david kilcullen, a former counterinsurgency senior adviser. Here in new york, michael hanna, a senior fellow at the foundation and bill spindle, middle east bureau chief for the washington journal. Let me begin with something you had said, michael. Assessment on iraq has to be one of interest and threats. Politics cant locate but doesnt change those things. Is the politics of iraq changing so it will make a more Effective Response to isis . It is getting there. We are still at the start of this process. Maliki has sent signals that he appears to be going along, but is still trying to hold out, looking at the Supreme Court perhaps as a way out. It is a matter of time. He doesnt have the Political Support on the ground. The question is, whether you can time the politics with the security. The security situation is a serious one that is not going to wait for political progress. It is clear that political progress is a necessary step. There is this military component that is going to be indispensable in trying to blunt the Forward Momentum of isis. Where did you see that at this moment . The military threat. Airpower has had an impact. I dont think we should exaggerate how much it can do what it can do is limit the ability of isis to conduct these surprise attacks, which clearly caught the Kurdish Forces offguard, and led to this scramble. This was a similar thing to what happened in mosul. With the iraq army . Absolutely. We can hope that airpower will blunt the ability of isis to really expand beyond where it is now. There were fears about the capital of kurdistan falling. And worries about what would happen further south towards baghdad. Airpower might be able to limit the expansion. What it cannot do is dislodge isis, particularly from places like mosul. David, this is the same question i asked brett, which is, what is the possibility and the likelihood that the sunni tribes will not support isis now if there is a different government in baghdad . And will therefore as happened in the awakening, be an effective force against jihadists . I think it is highly unlikely you will see the tribes support a new Iraqi Government. You have to recall, the awakening in 2007 was the fifth attempt of those tribes to throw off al qaeda in iraq. In previous attempts, it failed because there was no Government Partnership to work with. It was only the u. S. Forces in iraq that allowed that to work. Their calculus out towards the syrian border, they have to be looking at the relative balance of forces. Whoever is in power in baghdad, there isnt the ability to turn against isis and survive at this point. The first thing that is needed is a change in military balance before the political options open up. So it is a question of survival and they are not going to challenge isis unless they know they have enough support . I think that is right. I agree with the point that was just made. The introduction of airpower in the campaign changes the tactical calculus for isis. They can no longer run these blitzkrieg style assaults. It has pushed them into the population centers. They are hiding among the population. That makes it very hard to dislodge them without some kind of ground force. Right now there is no ground force in iraq that can push isis out of the area. It is not just population centers. It is also infrastructure. Dams, oil fields, roads. This is a much broader issue than just the military fighting around mount sinjar. I wouldnt even say it is a protostate, it is a state. It is a state . Do you agree with that . I still feel more like it is a movement but it definitely has infrastructure and command and control . Not just command and contr