>> from wbz chicago, "this american life." >> you are listening to "radio lab." >> today in studio 360 -- >> i don't know how to explain this, but something happened about 15 years ago and loved it might have had you with hip-hop -- about 15 years ago. it might have had to do with hip-hop, wordy and performance oriented. or maybe npr grew to a size that it became sort of part of everybody's -- i do not know. but i know what we feel, that more and more people were sort of married to it. you are point in their day, in the backseat of the car with their parents, and then they found things. here is the weird part. in 1971, a group of people got together and said, let's make serious newsmaking radio. walter cronkite and dan rather were kings on television of on television. "the new york times" had the .entagon papers if you wanted to be a serious reporter, you would do that stuff. casey kasem was radio. go, -- lindaira and ira go, let's be like "the new york times." it was stupid and crazy. now, you look at people, like linda wertheim. people in television had a thing. they had a swagger. you could feel it. the radio people are sort of mousy and quiet and self-effacing. npr -- no.lk down to these are people. happened, i think, for a combination of reasons. but suddenly closing your eyes and hearing something became totally not just a thing people want to do, but a thing people seem increasingly to prefer. from the perspective of 30 years of watching it -- you were there at the beginning. >> it has a number of qualities that i think that -- like a lot of listeners to the show i do, "this american life," have told me there is a wave of shows that when they heard them for the first time, they did not realize radio could do the things we do. , by i am told often, like people, the first time they heard "this american life," he did not realize a radio story could be good in a certain way. you would get caught up in it. you we get caught up in it because you just wanted to know what would happen. it can give you all the feelings that drama gives and be emotional. people, fora lot of a lot of people, that is news, and they want more of it. think there is a whole generation of us making the feels like, it weirdly, although it is the medium --ctronic .here is all this stuff to do all this stuff is new. there are young people getting let us takeing, this out to a spam. it is a really particular moment. >> you are coming late to the radio. >> i am. and part of the thing, in addition to what robert and ira we -- it is a time was thelike when rather king of television and the rest, audiences have been fracturing and getting smaller and smaller in the last 20 years, in general. on the one hand, a very successful radio show that has a million people listening or 2 million people listening -- 20 years ago, that would be a piddling little audience. today, that is as big as a successful television show. in addition to the quality, in addition to the smart audience that now defines themselves because they listen to "this american life" or "radio lab" -- it is part of their self-definition. culturally, this is the big leagues. what used to be the big leagues we are noten a lot. only, in audience terms, at an equivalent place, but public --io and everybody in it sometimes they succeed, sometimes they fail -- but they are all trying to make stuff they think is great and they think their audience will think is great, without any other imperatives getting in the way. 18-34-year-olds like this? no middle america like this or like this? its beginnings, opening off-broadway in 1971, then about trying to do the best it can. even though it is now swaggery and has these large audiences by ,odern standards, it is still more than most commercial byadcasting, motivated people wanting to create good things. >> it attracted you because you thought you would have more freedom to do interesting things. >> for some strange reason, out of the blue, they said, do you want to help create this new show? i said, for sure. having been a radio listener and -- ween dared to dream think you would be a good person to host this show about arts and culture. >> you have taken advantage of complete freedom in the other work you have done. in magazines and everything you have done. so why radio? had nothing, because i done it. here we are. of all the things i had not done or checked off my list, dance was not going to be one of them. >> you never know. you never know. >> so radio. i was so attracted by 1999, when they came to me, and what was being done. i thought, this is an amazing opportunity to have the freedom to talk to people and tell stories in different kinds of ways. i had started magazines and written books and dumpster. just had never -- interviewing, i had never been a real journalist. i interviewed people because you have to do that when you have a job at a magazine. but sitting down with people who , frank gehry mine or susan sontag or whomever, and spending an hour talking to them , was something i had never done. then i and my producers could shape that into radio. there is nothing like it. >> did you find it easy? like i did not find it easy, although i think the dirty secret of radio compared to writing books is that it is easy in that there are other people, at least in my case. these guys knew how to make radio. i have producers who, after i have my delightful conversation with my heroes, turns it into radio. that is easy. kurt.n you, as you know as well, having a conversation rather than doing an interview is a matter of tradecraft and learning. fortunately, we had a year to figure the show out chance to get me to at least and on embarrassing level of skill. >> what was the attraction for you? >> it is hard for me to say. maybe everything has been said already. me, it wasally, for something about this mixture that radio can provide. it is ultimately about the boys, about somebody speaking to you in the dead of night. you could have a disembodied voice, where they somehow seemed to fill everything. it is so authentic. you kind of protect -- kind of connect with that person. i loved the radio for that reason. i also -- maybe it was around the time when i started listening to ira's show. there was something that was almost the opposite of that. you hear these voices that are so particular and intimate and unique, but they are telling you stories that feel epic and large, with the sweep of the best movie you have ever seen. somehow, it was the marriage of the authentic voices, but with the feelings and immersion of a movie. that is, for me, everything i want from a radio. i want to meet real people. i want them to tell me stories as big as -- >> at the essence of what all of you do is story telling, isn't it? >> again, i think what everybody has been saying is that the opportunity to tell stories is, compared to television, this relatively unadorned way. there is not so much stuff in between. if i have this idea, i am going to talk to these people and make it into a story. there is less technology and stuff between you and that happening. >> and no adult supervision. >> very little adult supervision. the degree to which each of us are given our own hands to abandon what is working well, to do something we do not know if it will work, is incredible. it is amazing. >> there is an advantage to working in a medium that is forgotten and often declared dead. you have a sort of a nine neglect. you can sort -- a sort of benign neglect. you can sort of play around. >> does a podcast add to it? >> it is literally in your head. you put in earbuds, stick them in, and the rest of the world swaps out. it is just you and ira, you and kurt. there is something intimate about that. the other point of view -- you address a box. it is 18 feet away from you. there is a cap. there is a woman. there is a child. other things happen. when it is in your ear, it is just you and them. >> when i was interviewed for this gig, she said, you know, radio is a very intimate medium. i go, i know that. i had no idea what she meant. but it is exactly this. person,is single directly and almost unmediatedly speaking to you. it is as close to reading a book by an author -- you really feel you are in her head -- i know about in the electronic media world. that is, i think, part of the reason people respond so enthusiastically. live have added this medium, bringing all these shows to be stage. it feels to me, from talking to each of you, that it inspired even a different kind of creativity, or even more creativity, as you think about what you are going to bring in terms of your show to this venue. and then it changes up again. >> yes. >> i think part of it is -- the interesting thing for me at least, when we started performing on stage -- it is like a giving yourself permission kind of thing. there is the sense that in radio you are in a little booth, talking to people who you assume are out there, but you never quite see them. there is kind of a learned senility that comes from that. you never want to speak outside your knowledge. but there is a way in which radio has kind of run-up. part of walking on stage and confronting life human beings in the audience is about dreaming slightly bigger for what we do. for me, i thought, this is for real now. there are real people there. never mind that when you are on the radio you are probably talking to 30 times -- >> how did you two come together? >> him and i? jeez. i think it goes back to 2001, maybe. he was still a tv guy, or just a tv guy. i was working -- >> i am a tv guy. >> i did not mean to say that with disdain. i was trying to be as neutral as possible when i said that. i was sent to record a promo with a bunch of people, a 30 second promo for the station. he was last on the list. everyone else i had handed the ,cript to read it very, sort of professionally. he -- i do not know if this actually happened, but in my memory, he rips it up and throws it into the air like confetti, and turns around and writes some crazy, off the top of his head thing about alien cults am loyal tycoons. i do not know what it had to do but it was amazing. >> and sober and reasonable, i am sure. guy?was like, who is this we started talking, and within the first five minutes found out we had five or six spooky symmetries. years aftererlin 25 him. i was working as npr freelancer at the time and he was part of the crew that started npr. it was just one of those things i was this echo or something of his life 25 years ago. so we decided we had to have breakfast. >> how is that going to work out for jack, robert? >> we start having breakfast and i am opining and being bold and grand. jad brings me, this is what i have been working on. i put it on and think, oh no. this is completely new. it is gorgeous. it is strange. it is beautiful. it is new in the world. i said, ok. --s is going to sound ruh,ead of me going ruh ruh how about you? you seem to know stuff i do not know. i kind of reversed roles, from a mentor to -- to what i have become. you want to stay in the future and you want to stay in the action, you have to sniff for beauty wherever you go. and wherever you find it, even in this odd form -- [laughter] you just say, yes! otherwise, you just missed out. >> that is my philosophy, too. >> i think you once said that the importance of using the techniques of fiction in radio characters, scenes, never to threads. >> our show is top driven storytelling. that live and die by whether they are surprising and whether the characters are characters you can engage in. in the last two years, some of the stories have been developed -- people try to develop them into movies which never get made. a tv series which almost never gets made. but i get to spend time with professional screenwriters, and i feel like he speak the same language when we are talking about what a story is and how to shake it and make it. just think radio is immensely powerful for that kind of thing. i feel like when the medium was new it was generally understood this is an amazing media for telling stories. and that kind of all went away. the first time i heard somebody tell a story on the radio -- i remember, as a production assistant at npr, i was working on a show with joe frank, who would do these monologues, and had actors do stuff. i was in the control room and he was telling the story and i was like, i do not know what this feeling i am having is, but this is amazing, and this is what i want to do. -- i mean, it is weird that that went out of fashion for so long. and it is interesting, as the show has evolved. were justarted, we doing personal stories, really. now, we are kind to do the news. we will send reporters into iraq, or three reporters into a violent high school for five months. yes, five months. the school had 29 shootings in the course of a year. we wanted to understand what they knew at that school. and it is all the same thing. a wayit is much harder in to find characters and scenes and surprising stories when you are talking about climate change. i feel like one of the problems -- i do not know if you feel this, as someone doing stories on tv and doing the news. whole like there is a class of topics that, as soon as you open your mouth, everyone is tired of the topic. like, you know, climate change. the republican and democratic fight in washington. abortion. there is a whole list of things that we all here and go, i do not need more details about climate change. i know where i stand on this. you know what i mean? like -- i am feel very interested in guantánamo, but there is a class of things where we all know where we stand. and i think as journalists it is hard to know how to actually bring up the subject in a way that you can even make somebody want to listen or watch for a few minutes. and it takes such cunning, i find. and often, we will totally disguise what the stories are about. for a really long time. because, like, let us get some characters going. understanding narrative, like understanding plot, understanding characters, is just such an enormous tool to try to bypass that problem. i have been working on the news, "all things considered" and thening edition," applying tools of journalism to things that were so small and personal that the journalists would never touch them. gradually, i and the entire staff came back to actual, let's take on the deficit, the housing crisis, mortgage backed securities, but in our style, and find characters and scenes that could hold people in the way somebody like michael lewis can in one of his books, where you are looking for exactly the right situation and exactly the right characters that you can tell the story of something as complicated as high-frequency trading, which he does in his latest book, and people will stay with you, because they are like, these characters are amazing. >> that is really, i think, where the renaissance comes -- from collective coming. -- cunning. that width and that seduction, and all the things ira has to do to bring you either to anything inng or between -- that is someone who is restless. invent andnvent and invent, only to catch your attention and hold it. there was a time in the early 1970's, when public elevation came in. in my sense of things, there was a rush of excitement early on, all kinds of experiments. and public television sort of settled. but these are the unsettled diesel -- unsettle people who will not settle, and that is why it is doing well. it keeps scratching at every pitch it can find. and that is really interesting. >> it resonates with you. >> completely. was talking about the difficulty of convincing people they should listen to another story about this familiar thing -- one of the things we have done, i think with great success is we take360" familiar american cultural "ings -- "the great gatsby," appalachian spring." people think, i know all about that. by spending hundreds of hours trying to make a documentary that tries to tell you about this thing you think you know, and reveal to you how little you know, and how many more interesting depths and byways and things about it that you do not know -- that is the great challenge, to make what could berkeley,be, it is eat it, it is good for you, too, it is candy, give me more, it is fantastic, is what you want to do. ultimately, you are trying to do these worldly things that are not done otherwise, but to not ,o it in this sort of school know this because it is good for you, wave. do it in this fresh and entertaining way. you look at these four guys, did you think of unsettled and cunning, as you looked at what made them the people you wanted on the stage? >> you know, they kind of share a kind of humanity. and it is not rushed, you know? television, film -- these are things that are sort of cut, cut. i am saying, it is kind of not rushed. the have the ability to hang in with it and take it where it wants to go. also really lends itself to the medium of live theater. the idea festival -- what we try to do here is not just look at something in a quick hit, and you get it and go. we look at a body of work. when you look at these guys and you look at public radio, it is a body of work that comes together over a long time. and that applies -- implies a certain type of commitment, a certain type of depth. what we are about is trying to show that type of depth through the live experience, and also i think to have the audience right here. to have people respond is a very immediate thing. it is a very exciting thing. ability to sort of jump from radio to this, then back again -- >> the idea that we have to invent something -- it is bam . you have to invent something. >> is there tension between you? tension in that you see things differently. >> how many hours you got? of course there is. you grow up listening to things -- you hear music, jokes, adds. -- asds. there is a life in you. you are full of sound. the only sounds you have are the sounds that are in here. oryou grew up in the 1950's 1960's, i have a completely different set of sounds. he is afraid at any moment i am going to suddenly burst into "o what a beautiful morning." >> has that happened? >> we were in the studio today -- [laughter] "westenly burst into a side story" song. >> you are like a married couple, basically. >> did he get you angry? won the fight, as theest side story" exclamation point. he got me angry and i lost the argument. we are filled with different music. that is for sure, which is a generational thing. that more and more we are choosing ideas that do not have easy answers. literally, you are of two minds about something. and it is really useful to have somebody there who is also of two minds about the same thing. we begin to orient in opposition to each other. if i am feeling slightly more one way, it is instinctual that he goes the other way. that becomes a way to explore this two-sided issue, or this three sided issue. -- my wife does not have magical thinking. let us put it the other -- we are doing a piece about things. things which are infused with all sorts of memories, things that -- if i had an extraordinary experience with a girl and i pluck some blade of grass and put it in my pocket, i can take that blade of grass out in the next week, the next year. i can use the blade of grass to go back to that date. my wife, nothing like it. the explorers to club on 70th street, and i show her incredible things, including a flag that was left by nial and buzz on the and moon and picked up off the moon. it was from the first trip, of course, and she is being allowed to touch it. i said, you touch this thing, you are where buzz was, where our species was when we came off -- and she is like, "can i go now"? jad wrote my part. he seemed to understand. when we got into the studio -- we have all the tape. --had -- it's >> so interesting. >> you and your wife for having a fight. fight that i am very familiar with, knowing you as long as i have. i just wrote both parts of the fight, because i knew. i am in her head. >> so that is just weird. of -- it isis sort strange. it is strange to meet somebody -- and i am very friendly with this guy. the thing is, when you do this for a living, you develop a body of work, of course, and you can be proud of it, of course. but it is not a big industry. and you just find yourself a little bit in love. are -- these are your competitors. these are your comrades. but these are also the people who are sort of watching your use, and the people who sortable long to. i think when people listen to these radio folks, they feel they kind of warmth and a kind of sense of, that seems like fun, and they seem to be having a good time, and they are giving off an animal instinct. and people want to sit next to that, and they want to touch it. i think part of the neat thing outfits isf these that they are full of animal spirits. and that is very, very, very viral. yourhat may be, to answer first question, what is going on -- it made the people smelled a good time, and they wanted to sit next to it. whend i think we all love the great oddity happens. we keep it in the tape. we keep it in the air. -- the interview is over, but they suddenly shout and go "wow!" it is the strange little moments, whether it is the encounter in the field or something that happened in the studio. the sense that there is fun and m.o.and -- and quirk as an that. really respond to since we are gushing over how great public radio is, you know, we are members of the cult, but i think one of the good things about the cult is it is highly self-critical. i was first dragged into public radio, i heard him do an amazing thought -- talk about how public radio was failing to be interesting, and was settling, which i found inspiring. when we are thinking about a story that is this or this, the thing that any of us in our staff can say to kill it is, just so public radio. version ofe bad public radio, which exists. we all lovemuch as this institution, set of institutions, and what we are doing, we are not just god got -- just gaga. i think we are full of -- we see how often, how much better it could be coming in so many ways. >> i think that is true, but i think if journalistic colleagues in other media understood the cush situation we are in, they would want to come over. you get to do what you want on a bunch of networks and shows, so you are unusual. but unlike on tv, there is not ratings pressure at all. there is nothing. there is nothing like that. unlike people in the newspaper or print business, the economic model of what we are doing still works, so we are not in this constant freefall panic, how long will we have our jobs? >> can you satisfy yourself? >> the audiences are really large. a million, two million, 3 million people will hear everything you did, which is crazy. and the money is not perhaps as good as network television, but totally sufficient to have an apartment, you know? and own a car. and raise kids, etc. it is fine. it is totally fine. >> when you are creating a piece, how do you know when it works, all of you? what is the test? >> it does not work for a really long time, until you get it to work. >> in my experience it does not work until you make it work. >> in my experience, most things are trying to be crap and it is only through an act of will that you make them not bad. >> you go from crap to not bad? >> something where you can not be embarrassed and hate yourself. quick as a writer, that is all i knew. you start out typing whatever you typed. let's rewrite that. let's do that again. do that again. that exactly, it seems to me, a place to a radio piece, is taking it from the raw crap in which there might be some shimmer of possibility, and trying to extract that shimmer. >> one of the things that is common to depress us is that we will edit the stories over and over again as a group. if i write a story, it will be me and one other person. at some point, to edit it, we play the script and the tape, and each pass, we bring in one person who has not heard it yet. by the time it is done, it will be in a room with eight or nine people. each time, everybody gives notes. i know you guys will rework stuff over and over. especially with things where you do not really know how to shape them, because you have never done it before, nor has anyone -- those kind of stories, which are fortunately a decent number of stories -- >> i read somewhere you kill a third to half of all the stories of >> easily. >> that is crazy. you kill half the stories? half? has won 10 py he eabodies. beenmean, it should have -- are these baby stories that have not gone to adolescence and you murder the babies? or are these fully fledged adult stories? get threeime we stories we think are good enough to be in the show -- we often will get 10 or 15 stories. we will go into production on seven or eight. that is very typical. people start writing. interviews are done. we spend a lot of money. >> seven or eight? for three?even >> yes. especially in this format, the ones where we are not paid to reason tothere is no run a story that is not super sparkly. how do you know it is good? there has to be somebody to relate to. there has to be a surprising plot. it has to drive to an idea you have not heard before. it has to be a story where somebody has a new idea in their head as a result of it all stop extra points for funny, for sure. you want it to have emotion. you have to start making it. sometimes, we thought it would be the easiest show we would ever do a couple weeks ago, called "i was so high." we have to fill the show. we put a thing out on social media, like, send us your stories. we thought this would be the easiest pickings. stories.600 four of them were good. we learn something about "i was so high" stories, which is that -- they are people not good stories at all. even those four, it was a little bit of a stretch. it took three people days to go through 2600 submissions. >> have you ever killed an entire fully made our of radio? , but we have hour killed stories that were done and ready to go. it has been a while. it has been a while. but yes. >> have you cut a whole hour? >> no, god no. but we have killed pieces. >> we have enough stuff going that if something is going to die -- >> you would put it out of its misery early. >> often, it will be friday when we finish, and we will not know the lineup. because it is not clear how long each thing is going to be. should we make everything shorter or take one story out and use it next week? if you go carefully through the lineup of some of our shows, you can tell which is the story that was actually made for the theme before. you would have to be a super fan to want to do that, but you can totally tell. that is not the theme. that was actually -- and they are just acting like it is the theme. youou'd once said that what had to do was find somebody with a lot of knowledge and ask them why. >> i said that? i think that is true. andink you ask them why, then you get an answer, and another answer. you asked another person. the most interesting thing about when you know it is good is, when you feel that, given what you -- what talents you have and , whether you have are not embarrassed. the ira test. case, it has been amazing to me. we can sort of agree at the same time. you know what it would be like if you and i were in the lower business and i was like, i got three irises and you have three roses. let's start. you go, i go, you go, i go. and if we argued about it, we would never finish. go yes. we and then we go home. >> is that called collaboration? >> it is called finding beauty. >> it is very humbling. spend -- a lot of the work is extremely collaborative, and a lot of it is so low. it is you locked in a room, wrestling with something. you get to a point where you feel like, this is good. i am hot. i think it is amazing. and i will send it to robert and he will send me these classic seven-page e-mails, where he points out in brutally -- this year's insight -- this fierce i nsight, exactly why it is not working. if i could bottle the feeling of reading those e-mails, it would be perfect for your "fear" show. it is humbling when you think you have got it and realize you do not have it, but somebody else needs to complete it. but it is quite beautiful, i find, when you walk across the line and see, we have something that none of us could have done alone. i find thathild, mystifying. continuously. >> another thing that should be said about our three shows is that they are all weekly or less. -- which givesus us all the luxury of having this al, getting it just right approach. >> it is an experience i do not know. >> i do not know about that, but we are not doing daily shows, which is a different beast. >> tell us about the "fear" show. >> it is the show we are doing right here, at bam. these guys invented the idea of themes. we said, we should do a theme for our show as well. theme that drives artists who create art, and all of us to do things wise and foolish in life. theme to like a good propel our show, the show which has this incredible cast. band, and and his jennifer egan, and a comedian. so how else are we going to try to make a coherent scheme of establishing am theme? when we said to each of them, how about fear, i cannot tell how quickly each of them rushed and said, i am down with fear. we discovered the universal creative feeling, and fear is it. >> will there be a point in the fear show where the audience will be afraid? >> are the things you can do in radio that you cannot do in writing? >> the real conversation -- you can do it in writing. you can do it especially in fiction writing, as opposed to nonfiction writing. the moments, the pauses and inflections and the tone of voice in conversations, for instance, that -- >> you cannot. >> you can't do in magazine writing. you can't convey this visceral sense of what this rapport or lack of rapport is really like in writing. also, the description required to convey it in writing would be greater than the thing itself. whereas the spoken word is just -- it is this conversation, this highly edited and constructive conversation, but a conversation in which the listener can sense exactly what is going on, if you are doing your job. >> ira, what are you most proud of that you have created for radio? >> it is not a particular show. -- i just -- i would not started the show almost on a years ago. i don't think -- i did not have the power to imagine what it would be today, that i would be working with a dozen producers who are so skilled and interesting. like, other people were not doing these kinds of stories. and every person who i hired -- i started the show with three other pele and me, and every person i hired, i had to train to do these sorts of stories. and the thought that now i work with the most amazing people. i feel -- i know it is the corniest thing to say, but i feel proud to be their peer. and often i am not the loudest or greatest voice in the room at all. you know? and i feel proud of that. i feel proud, actually. say, i spent this whole conversation feeling like we are -- the more we describe it, i feel like we are artisanal chefs who work in a restaurant to cook like one meal a week, and we have the gall to be talking to you, in this very day -- it is like a typical wednesday. you did two hours of live tv this morning. you prepped and did a half-hour about president obama on television. and then like, we turn out a show a week. we have a lot of stuff. -- yourst feel like experience of this whole thing -- it is just like -- bitches.ee sons of >> i do not want to put you in a position where you feel you have to lie or be nice to us. you can hear everything we are saying on tv. you just think, my god. it is so much more fun to be prepping and doing the thing. did daily broadcasting. you did daily broadcasting. did you hear this? like, thank god it is not me. you do. -- i just do not have the luxury. i don't have the luxury of making it perfect. >> but you are bill moyer's baby. >> what do you mean? >> when he started, bill moyer put his hand on charlie and said, go with my blessing, or whatever. [laughter] business -- you can choose, in the course of your career -- you can choose different kind of rhythms to be in. reporters.ock they wake up in the morning. they have a press conference. they meet a lady on the 104 bus. she is not a reporter. she announces in the morning, today i will be at the press conference of the city council vice president. when you watch evening television, she is there. she is in the back row. she is the star of her own tempo. bringing up the rear everywhere in new york will stop -- in new york. and i think it is kind of neat. it should be acknowledged that there are people who go to work and want to tell you, this just in. i want to get it on and want to get it right and want to get it fast. >> i am not doing that. >> that is the one extreme. and then there is bill moyers. >> we have to put it in the context of a full season. you have got theater, dance, music, opera. you have to have blockbusters. you have to have discoveries. you have to have celebrities. you have to figure it all out. then how do you pay for it? there is these thousands of challenges. but it is really interesting that being here in brooklyn, when we put heartbeat -- when harvey lichtenstein, my predecessor, started, this institution was quite old and had been here a long time, but no one wanted to come to brooklyn and particularly. in a certain way it was liberating, because we could do whatever we wanted if we could figure out how to pay for it all stop it allows us to invent an institution rather than have one imposed on us particularly. still exists, which is how we ended up with this particular program, and there is something great about that. >> a doppelgänger. >> now brooklyn is like a thing. you had brooklyn people, and i took that to mean not geographically from brooklyn, but a state of mind. is the pressure different for you now? >> it is different, but it also, you know -- instead of hearing people complaining all the time about coming here, they are here. and so in that way it is a lot easier. but now we have to keep up the momentum, keep up the momentum and really try to deliver a great product all-time, and to keep all these different arts of it going. in many ways, it is sort of like what you guys are doing. different,lso very given that things come, they go, and they are gone. >> let me ask all of you this. becomingamerican life" something different? is it evolving toward -- how do you see the evolution of it? i feel it is a very different show than it was 10 years ago. >> where is it going? don't know. >> part of the excitement for you, the continued attraction -- >> we are talking about starting another show in the next few months. podcastng into the business with a bunch of other projects. >> finding your own distribution and all that. >> i feel like the most interesting stuff that we can do involves trying stuff we never did before. >> i am really loving the science part. jed is like, that is good. we have done that. >> you guys are totally leaving science. >> not totally leaving. just stepping out. daytripping. you cannot answer the question, where are you going. you answer it by saying, i am not staying where i have been. that is pretty much the answer. you see. >> you have to keep it interesting to yourself, and hope that makes it interesting to listeners. science, sone into it is a zero-sum game. >> they give it up and you take it on. doing this with our own documentaries about specific works. >> like "moby dick." >> we said, listeners, make us a 30 second horror movie and we will have wes craven judge the best one. 300 people made incredibly time-consuming, production-intense horror movies. ,e will do more of those getting the listeners into things, and trying to keep it interesting. >> on that keep it interesting, thank you very much. thank you all very much. [applause] ♪ ♪ . . >> this is "taking stock" for and monday, june 9. i am pimm fox. today's theme is essence. -- in just a moment, i will introduce you to the cofounder of essence magazine. he will give us details about his business career and how he has transformed the lives of millions of african-american women. plus you will meet the director behind the film on jack ma. the film captures the essence of the company, said to do its initial public offering on august 8.

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