Hes a really high profile tv presenter for Iran International. Thats a Persian Language tv news station. Its based in london, but its available all around the world, including in iran. And i should add, iran denies any involvement in this attack but previously it has said it considers Iran International a terrorist organisation. And Pouria Zeraati is now out of hospital and he and his wife are said to be in a safe place under the police� s supervision. But clearly, the whole story raises broader questions about the safety of iranian journalists. And weve got one of them with us here. Sima sabet used to be a presenter on Iran International. Shes also worked on the bbc world service. Thank you so much, sima, for coming on the media show. Thanks for having me on your show. Youre very welcome. I wondered first, in terms of your situation, what impact did fridays attack on mr zeraati have on you personally . Whats your Current Situation . Pouria was attacked around 4 45, 2 45 on friday last week and i was contacted by the Counterterrorism Police around seven ish, 8 00 almost in the evening, and they requested me to leave my residence and stay somewhere else because my place was not safe to stay there. And i havent been able to go back home since then. So today is the sixth day that i havent been home. And whats the situation like for you . Obviously not easy. I got a little bit unlucky because i got a cold on the very first night, so i was coughing and had fever, and just going from one location to another location, it was very inconvenient. But at the same time i had a bigger question why . Why shouldnt i feel safe at my home . I am a uk resident. Im a uk national. I have been living here for very long. And why should. . Why should someone be able to threaten me at home . And this presumably wasnt the first time that youve had dealings with the Counter Terrorism police. No, unfortunately not. There was a plot, a terror plot against my life, which came into light december 2023, which itv got access to intelligence from western intelligence services, which they had information about a plot which was supposed to take my life and my other colleagues, fardad farahzads life. They were referring with a code, bride, to me and a code, groom, to him. And they called our assassination the wedding. In the files that i recently listened to, there was a point that it was saying that, ok, the explosion is not possible, so go for a Quiet Wedding. And by Quiet Wedding they meant attacking with a kitchen knife. And the attack on pouria happened with a knife. So this has been the line of attack for at least as long as we know, since last year. Did you ever imagine when you were establishing yourself as a journalist in london that you would have to live under these kind of threats . Well, i didnt expect, because we have a democracy here, we have free press in the uk, we have a free society here, and its a Haven Forjournalists in order to be able to report, which iran is one of the biggest prisons forjournalists. Of course, i mean, as a uk national, i expect to be safe whatever i do in the field ofjournalism. On the other side, dealing with an iranian government, i know that im always under threat. It doesnt matter where i work, how i work, what do i do. My show at a time was one of the. It was the most watched talk show in persian media. Millions of audience were tuning in. It was prime time, 9pm tehran time. An audience, of course, i mean, we had uprising of women, life, freedom, so people were listening and watching to us, especially with the internet shutdown, like, across the country. So the tv was the only window that people could get a little bit of information of what is happening at the time. So ultimately, what they want to get out of this threat is to get you off air, to make sure that youre silent, to make sure that youre not going to talk about what youre doing, not to provide information or whatever you do in your journalistic line of work. Make sure that youre paralysed, youre scared, you have a sense of fear of what word you are going to choose to talk. We asked the home office for a statement for our programme today. A spokesperson said, this remains an Ongoing Police investigation. Were committed to giving the police the time and support needed to carry out their inquiries. It would be wrong to prejudice the outcome of that investigation. We will continue to carefully follow its progress. And sima, i wonder if we can bring another guest in to talk with us now. Shashankjoshi is the Defence Editor at the economist. Hes a Visiting Fellow at Kings College london. Shashank, thank you very much forjoining us on the media show. Can you help us understand how london has become such a hub for Iranian Media . Well, its partly that its a safe i place from which to broadcast farsi language output into iran. And that output has been consumed voraciously inside iran for the reasons that your guest hasjust outlined. Theres been a huge appetite for it. Theres been a tumultuous 18 months for the Iranian Regime, i particularly following the death i of mahsa amini in september 2022, a Young Kurdish iranian woman whod been arrested for flouting the hijab law. And whats happened is its been. A very practical base for those kind of media operations. The irony, i think, is its also been a very convivial base i for the Iranian Regime, both iranian oligarchs, | relatives of the supreme leader, ali khamenei, Iranian Clerics who send their children to london on visa schemes for investors. So its become notjust a hub for Iranian Diaspora Media i to broadcast back into iran. Its become a hub for the iranian i regime and the elite to use as well, both for nefarious purposes, for violent purposes, as weve just heard, and also for sort of economic, cultural, social purposes. And shashank, sima gave us some sort of chilling details there of experiences that shes had personally and plots against her. Why . Well, how does the iranian government target journalists here more widely . Do you have any information on that . The British Government says theres been about at least 15 Credible Threats by the Iranian State to kill britons or british residents since the beginning of 2022 alone. And theyve done this before. I could point to scoresj of examples of iranian assassinations across europe in the 19805 and 19905. |a lot of those were against formerj elements of the iranian monarchy, sort of former politicians, i former monarchist agents, as the Iranian Regime saw them. I whats happened is theres beenl a much more aggressive targeting effort against journalists. And the way that iran does it is not to use, typically, i its own Intelligence Officers or agents for this kind of violent work. It outsources lots of this. It uses assorted groups of organised criminal networks, which are basically, in some cases, allowed to get on with Drug Trafficking in iran in exchange for doing jobs for the ministry of intelligence i and security, which is irans main external spy agency. I one example of this, by the way, i not from the uk but from america, is a few months ago, a Drug Smuggler and a member of the hells angels, the criminal group slash biker gang, were among those indicted. In the United States for a plot to kill iranian dissidents. In addition to that, iran has also used private investigators to watch dissidents, and some of them may not know they are working | for the Iranian Regime. Now, lets talk about something thats become known as Havana Syndrome, and a new year long investigation into it. Behind the investigation are cbs news, the insider and der spiegel. And theyve been looking into whether mysterious attacks on us diplomats may be connected to russia. Heres a clip from cbs� 60 minutes programme. And bam, inside my right ear, it was like a dentist drilling on steroids. It was like a high pitched metallic drilling noise. I and it knocked me forward at, like, a 45 degree angle this way. Well, one of the journalists behind the story is michael weiss, editor of insider english, an online publication that specialises in russian related Investigative Journalism. Michael, welcome to the media show. Lets just start with this. For those of us who dont know, what is Havana Syndrome . So Havana Syndrome is a condition that the Us Government formally refers to as anomalous health incidences. Its a series of symptoms, including intense feeling of pressure in the ear, usually in perhaps only one side of the head. Theres a directionality to it, which is why a lot of people who experience it feel as though theyre caught up in some kind of energy beam or being attacked. Theres vestibular problems. People lose balance. They cant walk properly. They develop headaches. In some cases, they have more serious complaints. One of the first people to come to public suffering from Havana Syndrome has gone blind in one eye, has to be medically retired from Us Government service. There was a report that was put out by the Us Intelligence community, an expert panel that was convened, and this report was classified initially. It was published in september 2022, but a redacted version describes the core characteristics of Havana Syndrome. And whats interesting is, in addition to some of the sensory phenomenon and symptoms that i mentioned, the fourth core characteristic is, quote, the absence of known environmental or medical conditions that could explain the reported signs and symptoms. So were now looking. The first case that was alleged was in 2016. But weve actually found evidence that there were additional cases prior to that date. So youre looking at. Sorry to interrupt. Thats what i was going to ask you is in terms of your new investigation, whats new . What did you find . Well, i mean, we found quite a lot. Just to start where i left off, there was a Us Government employee stationed at the consulate in frankfurt, germany in 2014 who experienced the symptoms ijust alluded to but was actually knocked unconscious. This person was working in the consulate at the time, doing the day to day things that they do, and woke up in hospital and was diagnosed with mild Traumatic Brain Injury and a host of other complications. But the real, ithink, big moment of our findings was we set out, 60 minutes has been exploring this topic for five years. The insider partnered with them in the last year and they came to us saying, everyone in the Us Government weve talked to who believes that this is real points the finger at moscow. Were trying to see if theres any kind of connection to the Russian Security services or russian intelligence. And just to give you some background, the insider, my investigative partners, Roman Dobrokhotov and christo grozev, these are the guys responsible for unmasking the assassins of Alexei Navalny or the attempted assassination of Alexei Navalny with novichok. They were the ones to unmask the russian intelligence operatives who poisoned sergei and Yulia Skripal in salisbury, also with novichok, and a host of other things. Attempted coups in montenegro. The explosion, terrorist attacks, if you will, of a succession of Ammunition Depots in bulgaria and the czech republic. So. And the tie that binds is all of the operatives responsible for everything except the navalny poisoning belong to a unit of Russian Military intelligence known as unit 29155. And in the last decade, this unit has become quite notorious within all western intelligence communities for the operations that they have carried out. Michael. Michael, let mejustjump in there, though, before you carry on, because it would be really interesting for us to understand the process. What are the first things that you and your colleagues would do to start looking into that . Where would you even start . Well, the first thing we did is we talked to some of the victims, who they were, what their backgrounds were, where they were when they were attacked or they felt to be attacked. And we tried to determine, could we geolocate the presence of known russian intelligence operatives, particularly from unit 29155 . I was about to say, their remit specifically is for kinetic operations, violent acts of. You know, military acts. They do assassinations, they do sabotages, Sabotage Operations and they do attempted insurrection, right . So they dont do pure espionage. If you find them in a city in europe or i mean anywhere else in the world, asia, north america, the chances are theyre there to reconnoitre a target for elimination or for some act of violence. So what we managed to do, using a host of methods, we obtained Travel Documents and flight itineraries. We determined through social media profiles and databases that are readily available on the dark web. I mean, paradoxically, russia is one of the most transparent countries in that very Sensitive Information from drivers licences to Passport Data and photos can be obtained for a price. And these things are sold on telegram and other Social Media Platforms by crooked fsb officers who are trying to make a Living Moonlighting as private Security Consultants for companies. So using this methodology, we managed to piece together the Real Identities of gru 29155 operatives based on fake cover names that they use to penetrate europe. I was just going to say, michael, in response to your Media Investigation and the investigation, obviously by cbs and those people with you, kremlin Spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said no one has ever published or expressed any convincing evidence of these unfounded accusations anywhere. So all of those are nothing more than unfounded accusations. Shashank, Defence Editor of the economist, lets bring you back in. What have you made of the investigation thats been released and how it fits into your understanding of relations between russia and the americans . First of all, its stunning work. This is Investigative Journalism at its very best. So i congratulate mike and his team. Theyve really uncovered some fantastic things,. And no less than id expect from that team whove done such great work in the past as well. I do think we have a really interesting puzzle here. Because in. Last year, last, last may, the usi intelligence community, | the office of the director of national intelligence, odni, the agency that sits above all 17 Us Intelligence agencies, published a report in. Which they said they thought it was very unlikely, among five of those agencies, thought it was very unlikely i a foreign adversary was responsible for Havana Syndrome symptoms. I not everyone, not all agencies completely agreed, but none i dissented from the conclusion that a foreign actor did not cause the symptoms. And that was a really bombshell moment. | what mikes colleagues and mike in their great piece says is that. Theres a consensus among the victims there is a cover up, that the Us Government is hiding what it knows about the source l of Havana Syndrome on the basis that either it would be so shocking as to force the American Government to confront russia or that it would deter recruitment from the cia and state department. So theyve set up this i really important puzzle. Were going to turn to gmail, which celebrates its 20th anniversary this month. It was launched on 1st april 2004, and some people thought it was an april fools joke. But gmail now has 1. 8 billion users. Here to discuss its usefulness all these years on is mike isaac, Tech Reporter for the new york times, and julia hobsbawm, journalist, author of the upcoming book Working Assumptions and a specialist in evolution of the workplace. Yeah. So its funny to think of now because its so ubiquitous, but i do remember when it was kind of an invite only system in the valley. It was one of those things that was pretty. It sounds nerdy, but it was cool to have if you could get in early, and i