Transcripts For BBCNEWS Sunday with Laura Kuenssberg 2024070

videos. ., , ., �* still has time for the snazzy videos. ., g ., �* ~ videos. hello, joe biden here. mr president. _ videos. hello, joe biden here. mr president, it's _ videos. hello, joe biden here. mr president, it's rishi. _ videos. hello, joe biden here. mr president, it's rishi. but- videos. hello, joe biden here. mr president, it's rishi. but with - videos. hello, joe biden here. mr president, it's rishi. but with the j president, it's rishi. but with the -a president, it's rishi. but with the party behind _ president, it's rishi. but with the party behind in — president, it's rishi. but with the party behind in the _ president, it's rishi. but with the party behind in the polls - president, it's rishi. but with the party behind in the polls and - party behind in the polls and squabbling in its dna, he has to move in and move on. we have one big question this morning. what kind of prime minister will rishi sunak be? credited with starting the rebellion on liz truss on this programme no max. now back in governemnt as levelling up secretary, michael gove. and we'll hear from the shadow home secretary, labour's yvette cooper. and sprinkling some stardust, uk and us tv and film superstars david harewood and zachary quinto are here to talk of the biggest and baddest political showdowns in amercian tv history. and with me at the desk for the whole hour, the green mp caroline lucas, the new chair of stonewall, the gay rights campaign group, and long—time tory watcher iain anderson, and the former chancellor of the exchequer phillip — now lord — hammond who knows a thing or too about making the sums add up. hello and welcome to the first sunday of the sunak era. it is 9am, in case you forgot to put the clocks back, and we have a new, and britain's first, british—indian prime minister. this is what rishi sunak said he would do outside number 10 on tuesday. the mandate that my party earned in 2019 is not the sole property of any one individual. it is a mandate that belongs to and unites all of us, and the heart of that mandate is our manifesto. i will deliver on its promise. he says he'll stick to what borisjohnson promised three years ago, but beyond that, how much do we know? we know he backed brexit. we know he was fined for breaking covid rules, alongside borisjohnson, and we know he quit from government, helping bring down his old boss. we know over the summer, when he tried and failed to become leader, he predicted some of the economic chaos that shoved liz truss out. oh, and we know that he's fond of the odd fancy pr shoots. but this morning, we're going to try and get a sense of the kind of prime minister he might be. do send us your thoughts at [email protected]. but let's start with lord hammond. you were in the cabinet when rishi sunak arrived as a whippersnapper. what challenges face him and what sort of leader will he be? he what challenges face him and what sort of leader will he be?— sort of leader will he be? he has a hue sort of leader will he be? he has a huge challenge _ sort of leader will he be? he has a huge challenge around _ sort of leader will he be? he has a huge challenge around united - sort of leader will he be? he has a huge challenge around united thel huge challenge around united the tory party— huge challenge around united the tory party after _ huge challenge around united the tory party after what _ huge challenge around united the tory party after what has - huge challenge around united the tory party after what has been . huge challenge around united the. tory party after what has been very fractious _ tory party after what has been very fractious and — tory party after what has been very fractious and unless _ tory party after what has been very fractious and unless you _ tory party after what has been very fractious and unless you are - tory party after what has been veryl fractious and unless you are united, you cant— fractious and unless you are united, you can't get— fractious and unless you are united, you can't get anything _ fractious and unless you are united, you can't get anything done. - fractious and unless you are united, you can't get anything done. he - fractious and unless you are united, you can't get anything done. he has a huge _ you can't get anything done. he has a huge challenge _ you can't get anything done. he has a huge challenge in— you can't get anything done. he has a huge challenge in relation- you can't get anything done. he has a huge challenge in relation to - you can't get anything done. he has a huge challenge in relation to the i a huge challenge in relation to the economy — a huge challenge in relation to the economy he _ a huge challenge in relation to the economy. he has_ a huge challenge in relation to the economy. he has fiscal— a huge challenge in relation to the economy. he has fiscal stability. a huge challenge in relation to the. economy. he has fiscal stability and then he _ economy. he has fiscal stability and then he has— economy. he has fiscal stability and then he has to — economy. he has fiscal stability and then he has to articulate _ economy. he has fiscal stability and then he has to articulate a - economy. he has fiscal stability and then he has to articulate a growth . then he has to articulate a growth plan because _ then he has to articulate a growth plan because that _ then he has to articulate a growth plan because that is _ then he has to articulate a growth plan because that is frankly- then he has to articulate a growth plan because that is frankly whatl then he has to articulate a growth . plan because that is frankly what we are lacking — plan because that is frankly what we are lacking now~ _ plan because that is frankly what we are lacking now. liz— plan because that is frankly what we are lacking now. liz truss' _ plan because that is frankly what we are lacking now. liz truss' growth . are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan _ are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan is _ are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan is dead — are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan is dead in— are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan is dead in the _ are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan is dead in the water, - are lacking now. liz truss' growth plan is dead in the water, boris. plan is dead in the water, boris johnson's. _ plan is dead in the water, boris johnson's, which _ plan is dead in the water, boris johnson's, which was _ plan is dead in the water, boris johnson's, which was based - plan is dead in the water, boris johnson's, which was based on| plan is dead in the water, boris. johnson's, which was based on big trade _ johnson's, which was based on big trade deals, — johnson's, which was based on big trade deals, particularly— johnson's, which was based on big trade deals, particularly the - johnson's, which was based on big trade deals, particularly the us, l trade deals, particularly the us, didn't— trade deals, particularly the us, didn't happen _ trade deals, particularly the us, didn't happen. so— trade deals, particularly the us, didn't happen. so they - trade deals, particularly the us, didn't happen. so they will - trade deals, particularly the us, didn't happen. so they will have| trade deals, particularly the us, i didn't happen. so they will have to set out _ didn't happen. so they will have to set out a _ didn't happen. so they will have to set out a growth _ didn't happen. so they will have to set out a growth plan _ didn't happen. so they will have to set out a growth plan because - set out a growth plan because without — set out a growth plan because without growth, _ set out a growth plan because without growth, we _ set out a growth plan because without growth, we won't - set out a growth plan because without growth, we won't be i set out a growth plan because . without growth, we won't be able set out a growth plan because - without growth, we won't be able to solve _ without growth, we won't be able to solve the _ without growth, we won't be able to solve the problem _ without growth, we won't be able to solve the problem is _ without growth, we won't be able to solve the problem is that _ without growth, we won't be able to solve the problem is that our- without growth, we won't be able to solve the problem is that our publicl solve the problem is that our public services _ solve the problem is that our public services are — solve the problem is that our public services are and _ solve the problem is that our public services are and solve _ solve the problem is that our public services are and solve this - services are and solve this conundrum _ services are and solve this conundrum that— services are and solve this conundrum that people i services are and solve this . conundrum that people don't services are and solve this - conundrum that people don't want services are and solve this _ conundrum that people don't want to pay higher— conundrum that people don't want to pay higher taxes _ conundrum that people don't want to pay higher taxes but _ conundrum that people don't want to pay higher taxes but they _ conundrum that people don't want to pay higher taxes but they do - conundrum that people don't want to pay higher taxes but they do want. conundrum that people don't want to pay higher taxes but they do want to| pay higher taxes but they do want to have better— pay higher taxes but they do want to have better public _ pay higher taxes but they do want to have better public services. - pay higher taxes but they do want to have better public services. the - have better public services. the only way— have better public services. the only way you _ have better public services. the only way you can _ have better public services. the only way you can resolve - have better public services. the only way you can resolve that. have better public services. the only way you can resolve that isj only way you can resolve that is with _ only way you can resolve that is with higher— only way you can resolve that is with higher growth, _ only way you can resolve that is with higher growth, said - only way you can resolve that is with higher growth, said that i only way you can resolve that is - with higher growth, said that willow must he _ with higher growth, said that willow must be his— with higher growth, said that willow must be his relentless— with higher growth, said that willow must be his relentless focus. - with higher growth, said that willow must be his relentless focus. [- must be his relentless focus. relentless in tray. the must be his relentless focus.“ relentless in tray. the papers, must be his relentless focus._ relentless in tray. the papers, the telegraph with sunak talking about what he wants to do about the police. some headlines about the environmental conference and rishi sunak not going to that. and on the bbc news website, that terrible accident that took place last night in seoul in south korea. we will talk about some of those issues later. you have watch the conservative party for a long time, iain. how tricky do you think things will be for the new leader? iltrui’eiiii will be for the new leader? well they shouldn't _ will be for the new leader? well they shouldn't be _ will be for the new leader? well they shouldn't be tricky because as philip _ they shouldn't be tricky because as philip has — they shouldn't be tricky because as philip hasjust said, he has made the commitment to implement his 2019 manifesto _ the commitment to implement his 2019 manifesto. he said it wasn't owned by boris _ manifesto. he said it wasn't owned by borisjohnson but by the conservatives. i really want him to -et conservatives. i really want him to get on _ conservatives. i really want him to get on with— conservatives. i really want him to get on with implementing his manifesto and obviously particularly his commitment around banning conversion — his commitment around banning conversion therapy, that awful quackery— conversion therapy, that awful quackery imposed on many lgbtq plus people _ quackery imposed on many lgbtq plus people so _ quackery imposed on many lgbtq plus people. so implement your policies and, people. so implement your policies and. yes, _ people. so implement your policies and, yes, i've heard a lot from the prime _ and, yes, i've heard a lot from the prime minister so far about compassion. i want to see compassionate conservatism and i see michael— compassionate conservatism and i see michael gove writing about it in the papers _ michael gove writing about it in the papers this morning, too. but it has been an unbelievably _ papers this morning, too. but it has been an unbelievably torrid - papers this morning, too. but it has been an unbelievably torrid time - papers this morning, too. but it has been an unbelievably torrid time forj been an unbelievably torrid time for the conservative party and the country has sort of washed watched on through the trauma. now there is a leader who says things will be stable, maybe even whisper a bit boring. in this morning's papers you have a minister after minister saying what it should look like. 0liver dowden saying he is a safe pair of hands. michael gove apologising to the country for what has happened in the last month or so. caroline, as an opposition leader, do you think it will be any different? �* , , . ., ., , ., different? let's be clear, he has a ve low different? let's be clear, he has a very low bar _ different? let's be clear, he has a very low bar to — different? let's be clear, he has a very low bar to overcome, - different? let's be clear, he has a very low bar to overcome, to - different? let's be clear, he has a very low bar to overcome, to be i very low bar to overcome, to be slightly more competent than the previous two prime ministers. i think it will be anything but boring. i'm really worried about the next few months. first of all, you have the beginnings of what looks like more austerity, deeply concerned about that because the country simply can't stand it. we are ready have pensioners riding buses to try and keep warm. 2.6 million children who can't get enough to eat. so we already have a real disaster there. on climate, enough to eat. so we already have a real disasterthere. 0n climate, i'm sure we will come to that but he has made the call wrongly not go to the climate cop. en brexit, he was one of the big cheerleaders of that that has been a economic disaster. so i think we have some worrying months to come. pl. think we have some worrying months to come. �* ., , think we have some worrying months to come. . ., , ., , to come. a long list and listening to come. a long list and listening to that you _ to come. a long list and listening to that you wonder _ to come. a long list and listening to that you wonder why _ to come. a long list and listening to that you wonder why anyone i to come. a long list and listening - to that you wonder why anyone would want the job. to that you wonder why anyone would want thejob. in politics, someone always does. at the beginning of the month we were in birmingham for the prime ministerfirst the prime minister first and the prime ministerfirst and last conference as leader. there were already a lot of nerves around, the mighty financial markets had taken fright at her plans. the former cabinet minister, michael gove, was with us and lobbed in this grenade. 0n the basis of what the prime minister said, which was very clear and authoritative, but it is still the case, i think, that there is an inadequate realisation at the top of government of the scale of change required. so, yes, the energy package was the most important thing in the fiscal event but broadly, 35% of the additional money that we're borrowing is not to cut energy costs, it is for unfunded tax cuts. that was, according to most political watchers, on of the first real moments, in public at least, when the process of bringing down liz truss began. he was on the backbenches then. he is back in government now and in the studio with us this morning. you have returned to government as levelling up secretary. and have returned to government as levelling up secretary. and aged significantly- _ levelling up secretary. and aged significantly. let's _ levelling up secretary. and aged significantly. let's hope - levelling up secretary. and aged significantly. let's hope we - levelling up secretary. and aged significantly. let's hope we don'tj significantly. let's hope we don't all are significantly. let's hope we don't all age too _ significantly. let's hope we don't all age too much _ significantly. let's hope we don't all age too much in _ significantly. let's hope we don't all age too much in the - significantly. let's hope we don't all age too much in the next - significantly. let's hope we don't all age too much in the next 20 i all age too much in the next 20 minutes or so. you got what you wanted, a new prime minister, rishi sunak in post. he's made a big play this week of saying it is a government of integrity and accountability. is the home secretary a of integrity? absolutely. in secretary a of integrity? absolutely.— secretary a of integrity? absolutel . , ., , .,~ , absolutely. in terms of the mistakes she made, absolutely. in terms of the mistakes she made. it — absolutely. in terms of the mistakes she made. it is _ absolutely. in terms of the mistakes she made, it is something _ absolutely. in terms of the mistakes she made, it is something serious, l she made, it is something serious, not something that can be brushed aside. suella braverman, the home secretary, sent a sensitive official document to her own e—mail address and then on to somebody else, where it was discovered because she had done it in error. that might sound just like an admin error but it is a clear breach of security rules from someone who is meant to be on charge of that as home secretary. weill. of that as home secretary. well, suella apologised _ of that as home secretary. well, suella apologised for— of that as home secretary. well, suella apologised for the - of that as home secretary. -ii suella apologised for the mistake she made and indeed resigned from government. but the prime minister has made it clear that suella deserves a second chance and i am glad suella is in cabinet, because she is a first—rate front rank politician, someone absolutely committed to making sure that the two principal responsibilities any home secretary has come safeguarding our and home secretary has come safeguarding ourand improving home secretary has come safeguarding our and improving policing, home secretary has come safeguarding ourand improving policing, is charged with energy and focus. she said as soon _ charged with energy and focus. she said as soon as she realised her important mistake, she said she rapidly reported are unofficial channels, is that true? that rapidly reported are unofficial channels, is that true? that is my understanding. — channels, is that true? that is my understanding, yes. _ channels, is that true? that is my understanding, yes. i— channels, is that true? that is my understanding, yes. i would - channels, is that true? that is my understanding, yes. i would like l channels, is that true? that is my | understanding, yes. i would like to show ou understanding, yes. i would like to show you and _ understanding, yes. i would like to show you and our _ understanding, yes. i would like to show you and our viewers - understanding, yes. i would like to i show you and our viewers something. an e—mail sent from her personal e—mail address 10.02 that day, following the original e—mail she sent at 7.52 with the original document for them in their she says, please can you delete the message and ignore. she has officially realised her mistake but what does that message mean, do you think? again, i don't know the details of every e—mail that was sent in every message that was sent. but it would seem to me, on the basis of the information that you have there, that it was quite right that if something had been sent in error that the recipient should be invited to delete and to ignore that message. again, i don't know the full e—mail chain and history but that would seem to me to have been an appropriate thing to have done. except she says as soon as she realised, she admitted she owned up. reading that this morning, please can you delete and ignore, do you think that is somebody who is trying to confess or is it that somebody who is maybe trying to cover their tracks? i think some of our viewers reading that might take the tone from that as a who rather wishes it would go away. i from that as a who rather wishes it would go away-— from that as a who rather wishes it would go away. i am sure there will be all sorts — would go away. i am sure there will be all sorts of— would go away. i am sure there will be all sorts of inferences _ would go away. i am sure there will be all sorts of inferences people . be all sorts of inferences people could draw. but it seems to me on the fact i know, it would be quite properfor the fact i know, it would be quite proper for the the fact i know, it would be quite properfor the home the fact i know, it would be quite proper for the home secretary to have said to the recipient of something sent in error, please do delete and ignore it. that is standard practice. and i know that... whenever an e—mail i sent in error, and it is also the case i think that the home secretary subsequently or that morning had conversations with officials and others and as a consequence of those conversations, acknowledged error and made it clear that she was departing from office. but and made it clear that she was departing from office.- and made it clear that she was departing from office. but it wasn't until around _ departing from office. but it wasn't until around noon _ departing from office. but it wasn't until around noon that _ departing from office. but it wasn't until around noon that she - departing from office. but it wasn't until around noon that she did - departing from office. but it wasn'tj until around noon that she did then report through officials to simon case, the cabinet secretary, that this had happened. we know she e—mail in error at about ten to eight, a couple of hours later, she has someone to delete it and then a couple of hours later, that is when, through officials, as i understand it, she approached simon case and said she'd made this mistake was that this isn't like someone sending a shopping list by accident. it is not having thatjaw—dropping moment of sending the wrong text to the wrong friend, this is the home secretary committing a clear security breach, using her personal e—mail. security breach, using her personal e-mail. , ., ., ., ., �* ., e-mail. yes, and again i don't want to net e-mail. yes, and again i don't want to get into — e-mail. yes, and again i don't want to get into all _ e-mail. yes, and again i don't want to get into all of _ e-mail. yes, and again i don't want to get into all of the _ e-mail. yes, and again i don't want to get into all of the detail- to get into all of the detail because as we know, the message that was sent was intended for another parliamentarian and so it is not as though it was being sent out into the ether to persons unknown. but i don't know all of the conversations that they are home secretary had with the then prime minister and cabinet secretary. what i know is that suella apologised for the error, resigned from office and then when she was reappointed to do a job for which she is very well equipped and which she is completely focused on, the prime minister and cabinet secretary had complete confidence that suella was the right person for that suella was the right person for that role. but that suella was the right person for that role. �* ,., , that role. but the point is here, michael gove, _ that role. but the point is here, michael gove, she _ that role. but the point is here, michael gove, she has- that role. but the point is here, michael gove, she has said - that role. but the point is here, - michael gove, she has said publicly that she owned up to the error as soon as she realised the mistake. now some people seeing what we have shown them this morning might think is not quite the case. are you confident that she has given people the full and correct version of events? you say you're not quite sure, wouldn't it be better if the governmentjust did what the labour party is demanding and publish of the document straightaway and then everyone can see for themselves? that everyone can see for themselves? git the heart of this is a concern understandably about security. 0ne understandably about security. one other thing is when we are discussing any of these security it is entirely understandable that on behalf of the public that the media should ask on behalf of the opposition and shadow home secretary should ask for information to be published. but when we publish everything, we also potentially publish information that can compromise the effective operation, notjust compromise the effective operation, not just of compromise the effective operation, notjust of government of national security itself. so i want to be... but this is about personal... want to be fair to _ but this is about personal... want to be fair to people _ but this is about personal... want to be fair to people asking - to be fair to people asking questions, including mps, buti to be fair to people asking questions, including mps, but i want to make sure that what we don't do is on the basis of the imperfect information that is in the public domain, rush tojudgment in information that is in the public domain, rush to judgment in a information that is in the public domain, rush tojudgment in a way that would seem to be inappropriate. so again, i understand why people are asking these questions. i am satisfied, more than satisfied, that in resigning, accepting responsibility, apologising and then in being assured by the burnet secretary and the prime minister that suella coming back into office was the right thing, that suella is now in a position to do the work that she is dedicated to doing. but this is a huge distraction and there are other stories in this morning's press about things going wrong in her time in the home office, her attitude towards the migration centre in kent, concerns about how she is composing herself is that there are people in your party who believe rishi sunak may have made an error ofjudgment bringing her back into government.— into government. there are two thins. into government. there are two things- it's _ into government. there are two things. it's the _ into government. there are two things. it's the case _ into government. there are two things. it's the case that - into government. there are two things. it's the case that any . things. it's the case that any politician might suella who is brave making big changes are making sure the police concentrate on crime fighting first and we protect our borders, any politician like that will inevitably face some opposition. you are only... there is a phrase we have in politics, you only take flak if you are over the target and suella is on target in order to deal with these things. but there are really questions being asked about her. this isn'tjust saying, if you do tough stuff, you will get a tough ride.— will get a tough ride. everybody would accept — will get a tough ride. everybody would accept that. _ will get a tough ride. everybody would accept that. that - will get a tough ride. everybody would accept that. that is - would accept that. that is principally what is behind it but you also make the point about things being a distraction. again, i don't want to criticise the media because i've been a journalist myself in the past. but in a way, it becomes a distraction if people are asking these questions. we: distraction if people are asking these questions.— distraction if people are asking these questions. it's a distraction because the _ these questions. it's a distraction because the home _ these questions. it's a distraction because the home secretary - these questions. it's a distraction - because the home secretary breached security rules and she is the present government responsible for men to be keeping us safe. she broke the rules. she apologised, she resigned. i don't want to minimise the importance of security but it is important to get this issue in proportion. important to get this issue in proportion-— important to get this issue in --roortion. ~ ., �* , , proportion. wouldn't it be better if we had complete _ proportion. wouldn't it be better if we had complete clarity, _ proportion. wouldn't it be better if we had complete clarity, as - proportion. wouldn't it be better ifj we had complete clarity, as labour is asking for, about the precise chain of events? t is asking for, about the precise chain of events?— is asking for, about the precise chain of events? i think she has rovided chain of events? i think she has provided that... _ chain of events? i think she has provided that... at _ chain of events? i think she has provided that... at the - chain of events? i think she has provided that... at the cabinet | provided that... at the cabinet secretary. by definition, suella coming back into office is a sign of confidence on the part of the government as a whole that she is equipped, ready and in fact more than able to deal with the task in front of her. than able to deal with the task in front of her-— than able to deal with the task in front of her. ,, ., ., , , ., . , front of her. should the assurances be made public _ front of her. should the assurances be made public to _ front of her. should the assurances be made public to close _ front of her. should the assurances be made public to close down... i front of her. should the assurances. be made public to close down... the fact she is in — be made public to close down... tue: fact she is in office be made public to close down... tta: fact she is in office does be made public to close down... t"t2 fact she is in office does that. be made public to close down... the fact she is in office does that. we i fact she is in office does that. we are meant _ fact she is in office does that. we are meant to take that for granted? this is one of the most senior people in government who says she confessed to a security breach as soon as she possibly could have done, there is doubt about that chain of events, you say there have been assurances inside government it was fine and above order, why shouldn't the public see that? again, i made the point earlier and it applies to a number of stories in the newspapers today, when you are dealing with national security matters, it is understandable people will look at the stories and say, what lies behind that? when you're dealing with national security matters, it will often be the case there is information you cannot share because it might compromise national security or effective operation government. again, having been minister... she operation government. again, having been minister...— been minister... she was willing to share it and _ been minister... she was willing to share it and we _ been minister... she was willing to share it and we have _ been minister... she was willing to share it and we have big _ been minister... she was willing to share it and we have big shoes - been minister... she was willing to share it and we have big shoes to l share it and we have big shoes to talk about and particularly housing this morning which is part of your job —— big issues. millions of people are anxious about rent and mortgage and it is part of yourjob in government now and previously to get on with it. to start off, we have had an e—mailfrom a viewer, victoria, she rents, she says, i am along with millions of others at risk of losing our homes, i will be priced out of the tone i have lived in which has seen a rent increase in hundreds of pounds in the last 12 months —— the town. is it the government'sjob to months —— the town. is it the government's job to protect people or are they at the mercy of the market? tt or are they at the mercy of the market? , ,., �* , ., , market? it is the government's “ob to su ort market? it is the government's “ob to support people in i market? it is the government's “ob to support people in difficult i market? it is the government's job to support people in difficult times| to support people in difficult times and the prime minister in his article today in the mail on sunday has said while we need to take pretty tough measures to deal with inflation, fairness is the lodestone. as iain anderson pointed out, we will act in a compassionate way to make sure those who are vulnerable are supported. iptrufhozat way to make sure those who are vulnerable are supported. what will ou do? vulnerable are supported. what will you do? the — vulnerable are supported. what will you do? the property _ vulnerable are supported. what will you do? the property website - you do? the property website tracking prices says the average rise outside of london is 11%, 16% in london, £100 a month on average outside of london, £300 in london. we are working withjeremy hunt and the prime minister to look at the package at the time of the autumn statement to see exactly how we can ensure we help people at this extraordinarily difficult time. i cannot pre—empt what will be announced. what i can do is to point to what rishi sunak did when chancellor. at critical moments in covid, while there were tough decisions to take to keep the economy going and combat the virus, economic support will be targeted on the very poorest. you can see what economists call his revealed preferences and they are to do what is in the national interest and support people who were facing the toughest times.— toughest times. might that mean financial help _ toughest times. might that mean financial help for _ toughest times. might that mean financial help for renters, - toughest times. might that mean financial help for renters, mightl toughest times. might that mean | financial help for renters, might it mean cash for them? we financial help for renters, might it mean cash for them?— financial help for renters, might it mean cash for them? we know people in the private — mean cash for them? we know people in the private rented _ mean cash for them? we know people in the private rented sector— mean cash for them? we know people in the private rented sector and - in the private rented sector and social rented sector, people living in council houses or housing association homes, they are facing tough times. we are looking at a range of options.— tough times. we are looking at a range of options. could that mean extra cash for— range of options. could that mean extra cash for people _ range of options. could that mean extra cash for people struggling i range of options. could that mean | extra cash for people struggling to pay rent? tt extra cash for people struggling to -a rent? . ., ., extra cash for people struggling to -a rent? _, ., ., pay rent? it could mean targeted su oort pay rent? it could mean targeted support for— pay rent? it could mean targeted support for all— pay rent? it could mean targeted support for all sorts _ pay rent? it could mean targeted support for all sorts of _ pay rent? it could mean targeted support for all sorts of people i pay rent? it could mean targeted. support for all sorts of people who are in difficulty but again what i cannot do at this stage is anticipate... cannot do at this stage is anticipate. . ._ cannot do at this stage is antici ate. .. , , anticipate... very interesting. there could — anticipate... very interesting. there could be _ anticipate... very interesting. there could be direct - anticipate... very interesting. there could be direct support| anticipate... very interesting. i there could be direct support for people struggling to pay their rent. there are people who will be in all sorts of difficult economic circumstances in the next six months, rent will be one of the challenges. i obviously take no pleasure in saying this, we have food price inflation, we have already had support for people facing rising energy prices. the combination of inflation and higher interest rates to deal with inflation create difficulties and there are different ways of supporting people, three universal credit, the tax system, or direct support. credit, the tax system, or direct su oort. ~ ., credit, the tax system, or direct su. port, a, ., credit, the tax system, or direct su oort. ., ., support. more on that in the next few weeks _ support. more on that in the next few weeks no _ support. more on that in the next few weeks no doubt. _ support. more on that in the next few weeks no doubt. this - support. more on that in the next few weeks no doubt. this has i support. more on that in the next few weeks no doubt. this has all| few weeks no doubt. this has all been made tougher by the shortage of houses being built. the conservatives first promised in 2017 you would build 300,000 houses a yearin you would build 300,000 houses a year in the mid—20 20s, is that still the target? year in the mid-20 20s, is that still the target?— year in the mid—20 20s, is that still the target? yes. people seemed to back away — still the target? 123 people seemed to back away from that under liz truss and robertjenrick said he would miss the target by a country mile. tic would miss the target by a country mile. ., ., .., , , would miss the target by a country mile. ., ., , , ., ., mile. no one can deny it is going to be made more _ mile. no one can deny it is going to be made more difficult _ mile. no one can deny it is going to be made more difficult because i mile. no one can deny it is going to be made more difficult because of. be made more difficult because of economic circumstances. you are right we need to build more homes, for people to own and more for people to rent socially, more council houses, housing association homes, the right homes in the right places. but as rishi sunak said, we need to be straight with people. the cost of materials has increased because of the problems of global supply chains and a very tight labour means the capacity to build the homes... tt labour means the capacity to build the homes- - -_ labour means the capacity to build the homes... it is tough to do but a housin: the homes... it is tough to do but a housing minister _ the homes... it is tough to do but a housing minister in _ the homes... it is tough to do but a housing minister in the _ the homes. .. it is tough to do but a housing minister in the summer- the homes... it is tough to do but a | housing minister in the summer said liz truss would abolish top—down housing targets, i want to be crystal clear, you are saying, no, the target of 300,000 is part of your programme?— the target of 300,000 is part of your programme? there are two thins, your programme? there are two things, the — your programme? there are two things, the first _ your programme? there are two things, the first is _ your programme? there are two things, the first is the _ your programme? there are two things, the first is the top-downj things, the first is the top—down housing targets referred to are part of a broader and different calculation from the 300,000 in the manifesto, we are talking two different things. my view is what we do need is a fair way of allocating housing need that takes account of changes in population, some of the calculations made in the past have been wrong. we need to re—base that and critically we need to make sure we have local communities is to development and that means homes need to be more beautiful, we need the infrastructure alongside them and critically also means we need to make sure the environment is protected as well. we make sure the environment is protected as well.— make sure the environment is protected as well. we are still talkino protected as well. we are still talking about _ protected as well. we are still talking about this _ protected as well. we are still talking about this 12 _ protected as well. we are still talking about this 12 years i protected as well. we are still| talking about this 12 years into tory governments and we are in a situation with rent spiralling, the number of affordable homes is nowhere near the target, the target, the amount of social housing being built is barely touching the sides, only 6000 last year. having a secure home and getting on the property ladder, both things feel so far out of reach for many people and i would like to play you a question from a young housing campaigner who i believe you have come across, let's listen to what he wants to put to you. more and more social and private housing tenants are reaching out to me, complaining about their poor living conditions. after a year and half of campaigning, i've seen the same landlords get away with it with no real consequences. no heavy penalties, no landlords being fired. now after grenfell, we were promised that things would get better for tenants. so why is it that bad landlords are still getting away scot—free whilst tenants are forced to live in squalor? why is it, michael gove, that is happening?— why is it, michael gove, that is hauenino? ., ., happening? legislation is coming out -a thanks happening? legislation is coming out party thanks to _ happening? legislation is coming out party thanks to his — happening? legislation is coming out party thanks to his campaigning i happening? legislation is coming out party thanks to his campaigning and l party thanks to his campaigning and to the campaigning of the grenfell families. new legislation will make sure social landlords live up to their responsibilities, tougher regulation, stronger voice for tenants, bigger penalties for social landlords keeping people in homes for social rent which are not fit for social rent which are not fit for habitation, and we are also bringing in legislation to deal with private rented sector as well. flan private rented sector as well. can ou private rented sector as well. can you guarantee — private rented sector as well. can you guarantee that the impact of the legislation for people watching this morning who are getting a rough ride and many living in terrible conditions, can you guarantee rogue landlords will be prosecuted, named and shamed, part of the plan as i understand it, can you guarantee that will actually happen? for a lot of people watching this morning, they will feel, i have heard politicians talk about this for years and the situation is getting worse. �* ., ., worse. before i left government in the summer. _ worse. before i left government in the summer. we — worse. before i left government in the summer, we had _ worse. before i left government in the summer, we had put- worse. before i left government in the summer, we had put in - worse. before i left government in the summer, we had put in place i the summer, we had put in place plans both to deal with social landlords not doing theirjob effectively and also to deal with the very small but noxious minority of private landlords who are not treating their tenants properly. we will bring forward the legislation to deal effectively with that. its, to deal effectively with that. a recent bbc investigation showed in the last five years in private rented accommodation where terrible things, hazards known in the industry, identified, less than 1% of those things resulted in a prosecution. brute of those things resulted in a prosecution.— of those things resulted in a prosecution. of those things resulted in a orosecution. ~ ., ., ., ., ,, prosecution. we are going to take ste -s in prosecution. we are going to take steps in legislation _ prosecution. we are going to take steps in legislation to _ prosecution. we are going to take steps in legislation to deal - prosecution. we are going to take steps in legislation to deal with i steps in legislation to deal with that. 12 steps in legislation to deal with that. , p, , steps in legislation to deal with that. , a ., ' that. 12 years, michael gove, 12 ears, that. 12 years, michael gove, 12 years. 1% _ that. 12 years, michael gove, 12 years. i% of _ that. 12 years, michael gove, 12 years, 1% of terrible _ that. 12 years, michael gove, 12 years, 1% of terrible things i that. 12 years, michael gove, 12 years, 1% of terrible things that| years, 1% of terrible things that went wrong led to prosecutions. you know i am went wrong led to prosecutions. 1111. know i am someone who went wrong led to prosecutions. 111. know i am someone who if i am fortunate enough to be in office, i do not like to hang around. i had ten months before in thisjob and we brought forward legislation. however long i still have in thisjob, i'm determined to make sure we deal with that. there are all sorts of abuses in the housing market. another problem which many of your viewers will be familiar with in supported housing, rogue elements who take money from the state saying they will provide vulnerable people with a roof over their head and additional support and some of these chances are leaving people in dire circumstances. a backbench conservative mp is working with the charity crisis to deal with that and we want to work with them to deal with the problem. we we want to work with them to deal with the problem.— we want to work with them to deal with the problem. we will watch very carefully what _ with the problem. we will watch very carefully what happens _ with the problem. we will watch very carefully what happens on _ with the problem. we will watch very carefully what happens on housing, | carefully what happens on housing, an issue millions care about and we will return to it. great to talk to you about that this morning. i want to touch on a couple of other things. when we last met you made it clear your belief was benefit should rise in line with inflation, as borisjohnson promised. should they? we will have very tough decisions to make in the autumn statement. rishi �*s everything he has done in politics is seek to... 's everything he has done in politics is seek to. . .- 's everything he has done in politics is seek to. .. seems like ou are politics is seek to. .. seems like you are walking _ politics is seek to. .. seems like you are walking away _ politics is seek to. .. seems like you are walking away from i politics is seek to. .. seems like | you are walking away from that. politics is seek to. .. seems like i you are walking away from that. do you are walking away from that. do you want it to happen? t you are walking away from that. do you want it to happen?— you want it to happen? i want to make sure _ you want it to happen? i want to make sure we — you want it to happen? i want to make sure we protect _ you want it to happen? i want to make sure we protect the i you want it to happen? i want to i make sure we protect the vulnerable and i know rishi sunak is absolutely locked on to that. that and i know rishi sunak is absolutely locked on to that.— locked on to that. that sounds like it is not going _ locked on to that. that sounds like it is not going to _ locked on to that. that sounds like it is not going to happen _ locked on to that. that sounds like it is not going to happen may i locked on to that. that sounds like it is not going to happen may be. i it is not going to happen may be. lastly, one thing that has been a big topic of conversation in the last few days, the prime minister is not going to the environmental summit, cop, and the government has signalled to the king they do not want him to go and alok sharma, climate envoy in this country, demoted from sitting in the cabinet, he is not happy, would you blame the viewers for thinking this new leadership of the tory party does not take the environment and climate change as seriously? tie. not take the environment and climate change as seriously?— change as seriously? no, we take it incredibly seriously. _ change as seriously? no, we take it incredibly seriously. what _ change as seriously? no, we take it incredibly seriously. what you i change as seriously? no, we take it incredibly seriously. what you want | incredibly seriously. what you want to field the strongest team at cop26 but even more important than who goes is what we do. where the country in the g7 which is decarbonising fastest, we have a plan that ensures we enhance protection for nature and indeed make sure that whether it is on land or on the sea, that we do more for biodiversity. we are making sure that we move towards electric vehicles with the phasing out of internal combustion engines, moving towards renewables, fulfilling climate, nature and environmental obligations, and we are reviewing plans that under liz truss were being brought forward, investment zones... , ., being brought forward, investment zones- - -_ the - being brought forward, investment i zones. . ._ the concern zones... they might go. the concern is, we will — zones. .. they might go. the concern is, we will review— zones... they might go. the concern is, we will review them, _ zones... they might go. the concern is, we will review them, but - zones... they might go. the concern is, we will review them, but there i is, we will review them, but there is, we will review them, but there is no way we are undermining environmental protections. rishi sunak supported me to the hilt when i was environment secretary in making sure we could show environmental leadership. judge us by our actions. fliur environmental leadership. judge us by our actions-— by our actions. our view certainly will. by our actions. our view certainly will- thank— by our actions. our view certainly will. thank you _ by our actions. our view certainly will. thank you for _ by our actions. our view certainly will. thank you for coming i by our actions. our view certainly will. thank you for coming this i will. thank you for coming this morning, michael gove, never gone for long, despite the machinations of the tory party. thank you for coming in. lots of interesting fodder. let's see what the panel had to make of it. iain anderson, tory a long time, what did you make of what he had to say about suella braverman as home secretary? this he had to say about suella braverman as home secretary?— as home secretary? this is not the ideal start. — as home secretary? this is not the ideal start. is _ as home secretary? this is not the ideal start, is it? _ as home secretary? this is not the ideal start, is it? it _ as home secretary? this is not the ideal start, is it? it was _ as home secretary? this is not the ideal start, is it? it was not - as home secretary? this is not the ideal start, is it? it was not the i ideal start, is it? it was not the ideal start, is it? it was not the ideal end of the previous administration. for me, and i think for a lot of viewers, the key thing will be this. our national security is absolutely paramount. and perhaps even more paramount if that is possible in the current environment we are in. it is the prime minister to make a judgment as to whether or not national security has been compromised. i will not call on this programme for anyone to come and go, thatis programme for anyone to come and go, that is not my role, but the prime minister needs to be absolutely satisfied, home office officials, security services, they need to be completely confident when they send information to a home secretary that it is not going to go anywhere else. there is widespread concern, the observer talking about secret 0bserver talking about secret meetings of the home secretary and backbench mps and concern some people have about that. philip hammond, one of the interesting things was to hear michael gove commit very firmly to the target of 300,000 new homes every year. that target was brought in when you were chancellor. why is housing so difficult as a problem to solve in this country? tt difficult as a problem to solve in this country?— difficult as a problem to solve in this count ? , . . . this country? it is a huge challenge for the tory — this country? it is a huge challenge for the tory party _ this country? it is a huge challenge for the tory party because - this country? it is a huge challenge for the tory party because on i this country? it is a huge challenge for the tory party because on the l for the tory party because on the one hand — for the tory party because on the one hand you have got a commitment, as michael— one hand you have got a commitment, as michael gove reiterated, to build more _ as michael gove reiterated, to build more homes, in aggregate, but at the same _ more homes, in aggregate, but at the same time, _ more homes, in aggregate, but at the same time, you have the difficulty that many— same time, you have the difficulty that many of our core supporters and voters _ that many of our core supporters and voters in _ that many of our core supporters and voters in the — that many of our core supporters and voters in the tory party do not want the homes — voters in the tory party do not want the homes built near them. that is the homes built near them. that is the challenge. everybody wants to solve _ the challenge. everybody wants to solve this — the challenge. everybody wants to solve this problem. nobody wants it solved _ solve this problem. nobody wants it solved on— solve this problem. nobody wants it solved on their doorstep. resolving that challenge is a very big issue for government. i think michael very carefully— for government. i think michael very carefully there distanced himself from the — carefully there distanced himself from the kind of top—down targets that will— from the kind of top—down targets that will actually deliver, saying to individual local authorities, you have _ to individual local authorities, you have to _ to individual local authorities, you have to build this number of homes. without— have to build this number of homes. without those kind of prospective targets, _ without those kind of prospective targets, the 300,000 in britain will not happen. targets, the 300,000 in britain will not ha ren. ~ . targets, the 300,000 in britain will not ha ren. . . . targets, the 300,000 in britain will not happen-— not happen. what about the wider economic picture? _ not happen. what about the wider economic picture? you _ not happen. what about the wider economic picture? you heard i not happen. what about the wider economic picture? you heard him| not happen. what about the wider- economic picture? you heard him very carefully walk back from his desire to see benefits rise in line with inflation. how prepared should the viewers before things to get very lumpy? i think it will be incredibly difficult for terms of trade had worsened against the uk. the markets have some _ worsened against the uk. the markets have some effort. i had michael gove talk about— have some effort. i had michael gove talk about targeted support for all sorts of— talk about targeted support for all sorts of people but i him saying how it will be paid for. the option of borrowing to do it is no longer— the option of borrowing to do it is no longer on the table, after the sort of— no longer on the table, after the sort of market tantrum last month. we know— sort of market tantrum last month. we know that, and by the way, that applies— we know that, and by the way, that applies to _ we know that, and by the way, that applies to a — we know that, and by the way, that applies to a labour government wanting — applies to a labour government wanting to borrow more for more public— wanting to borrow more for more public spending, just as it applies to a tory— public spending, just as it applies to a tory government wanting to borrow— to a tory government wanting to borrow to— to a tory government wanting to borrow to cut taxes. if to a tory government wanting to borrow to cut taxes.— to a tory government wanting to borrow to cut taxes. if you are in this position. — borrow to cut taxes. if you are in this position, would _ borrow to cut taxes. if you are in this position, would you - borrow to cut taxes. if you are in this position, would you be i this position, would you be borrowing at the same levels if you are chancellor?— are chancellor? either have a ways been a fiscal— are chancellor? either have a ways been a fiscal conservative - are chancellor? either have a ways been a fiscal conservative and i i been a fiscal conservative and i think— been a fiscal conservative and i think fiscal conservatism will reassert _ think fiscal conservatism will reassert itself now. butjust think fiscal conservatism will reassert itself now. but just a word of caution — reassert itself now. but just a word of caution on the benefits uprating. all chancellors, all governments try and roll _ all chancellors, all governments try and roll the pitch ahead of any budget— and roll the pitch ahead of any budget or statement.- and roll the pitch ahead of any budget or statement. perhaps they mi . ht budget or statement. perhaps they mirht be budget or statement. perhaps they might be exaggerating _ budget or statement. perhaps they might be exaggerating how- budget or statement. perhaps they might be exaggerating how bad i budget or statement. perhaps they i might be exaggerating how bad things will be? t might be exaggerating how bad things will be? ., 1 , might be exaggerating how bad things willbe? ., , , , , , will be? i would be very surprised if they don't _ will be? i would be very surprised if they don't end _ will be? i would be very surprised if they don't end up _ will be? i would be very surprised if they don't end up operating i if they don't end up operating benefits— if they don't end up operating benefits in line with inflation. caroline, _ benefits in line with inflation. caroline, you are shaking your head. economics as in politics, there are always choices?— always choices? always political choices about _ always choices? always political choices about this _ always choices? always political choices about this government i always choices? always political i choices about this government right now can't say that it will operate those benefits in line with inflation i think is deeply concerning. many people, for whom this is a matter of almost life and death, quite frankly. so if it is the case that michael gove claimed, that fairness is rishi sunak�*s lone star, he should be able to say this right now. he should be able to say instead of talking about eye watering really difficult choices, thatis watering really difficult choices, that is a ways code for hitting the poorest. he could be introducing a range of wealth taxes. why don't we have taxes on peoples assets rather than encompassed but there is a political choices, why would don't we look at those rather than hitting the poorest first and hardest? itruth? the poorest first and hardest? why not, there the poorest first and hardest? why not. there are _ the poorest first and hardest? why not, there are other ways of doing this, there is not one economic orthodox, you say fiscal conservatism is that, but there are other ways of doing it? that conservatism is that, but there are other ways of doing it?— other ways of doing it? that is absolutely _ other ways of doing it? that is absolutely right. _ other ways of doing it? that is absolutely right. the - other ways of doing it? that is absolutely right. the problem | other ways of doing it? that is i absolutely right. the problem with people _ absolutely right. the problem with people on — absolutely right. the problem with people on the left who always reach for tax _ people on the left who always reach for tax the — people on the left who always reach for tax the wealthy have to realise the reality — for tax the wealthy have to realise the reality. ithink for tax the wealthy have to realise the reality. i think mervyn king said it — the reality. i think mervyn king said it on — the reality. i think mervyn king said it on your gram last week. there — said it on your gram last week. there are — said it on your gram last week. there are not enough of them and they don't— there are not enough of them and they don't have enough wealth that this will— they don't have enough wealth that this will solve the problem. yes, of course _ this will solve the problem. yes, of course you — this will solve the problem. yes, of course you can tax wealthy people a bit more _ course you can tax wealthy people a bit more but the reality of the fiscal— bit more but the reality of the fiscal challenge we face means, and the demographic challenge we face, means— the demographic challenge we face, means everyone public services not 'ust means everyone public services not just to _ means everyone public services not just to be _ means everyone public services not just to be maintained but improved, everybody. — just to be maintained but improved, everybody, including ordinary earners, _ everybody, including ordinary earners, are going to have to pay more _ earners, are going to have to pay more tax — earners, are going to have to pay more tax. . ., earners, are going to have to pay more tax— earners, are going to have to pay more tax. caroline, i want to talk about this — more tax. caroline, i want to talk about this but _ more tax. caroline, i want to talk about this but then _ more tax. caroline, i want to talk about this but then cop, - more tax. caroline, i want to talk about this but then cop, what i more tax. caroline, i want to talk| about this but then cop, what you make of it? t about this but then cop, what you make of it?— make of it? i fundamentally disagree- — make of it? i fundamentally disagree. there _ make of it? i fundamentally disagree. there are - make of it? i fundamentally disagree. there are a i make of it? i fundamentally disagree. there are a range j make of it? i fundamentally i disagree. there are a range of wealth taxes, including property taxes. a report was out last week that talked about 37 billion from a range of five different wealth taxes you could do. that would start filling that black hole that we are supposed to be worrying about right now. i would also challenge you when you say governments can't borrow any more. we should be careful not to learn the wrong lessons from the fiasco of liz truss' budget because there is a wealth of difference between borrowing to pay for tax cuts and borrowing to invest in productive capacity in this country and that is exactly what we need to see. t and that is exactly what we need to see. p, and that is exactly what we need to see. . . and that is exactly what we need to see. p, . lets and that is exactly what we need to see._ lets talk i see. i agree with that. lets talk about cop. _ see. i agree with that. lets talk about cop, the _ see. i agree with that. lets talk about cop, the prime - see. i agree with that. lets talk about cop, the prime ministerl see. i agree with that. lets talk. about cop, the prime minister is see. i agree with that. lets talk- about cop, the prime minister is not going but the former prime minister suggested he might be going on the front page of the observer. boris johnson might be attending cop. in the sunday times, we have alok sharma, the climate envoy for the government, attacking the fact surname echoes on going and unhappy with the approach they are taking. are you pleased borisjohnson might go to cop? t are you pleased boris johnson might to to cop? 1' 1 1 go to cop? i think this is the first decision boris _ go to cop? i think this is the first decision boris johnson _ go to cop? i think this is the first decision boris johnson has - go to cop? i think this is the first decision boris johnson has made| go to com i think this is the first| decision boris johnson has made i decision borisjohnson has made i think i might support. if it embarrasses rishi sunak to reverse his disgraceful decision and get there himself, or land good. i'm not suggesting necessarily that boris johnson is doing it for the good of the planet. i guess a great deal of self—promotion is going on there as well but let's take it, let's have him go there. it is absolutely... it is so wrong that rishi sunak is not going because the uk is still the holder of the cop presidency and symbols matter. if we are really saying that in the sixth richest country in the world, our prime minister can't be bothered to get there because he is busy... what about all the prime ministers and countries on the front edge of the climate emergency right now? t5 climate emergency right now? is there not an argument that sometimes and i know having covered a lot of these kinds of summits themselves, sometimes there is a lot of chat, a lot of gathering, quite a lot of hangers on. sometimes big political summits don't actually turn out to be what they promise and actually, all the work sometimes is done on the phone or in quiet corners and the phone or in quiet corners and the sort of pageantry of these big summits, sometimes doesn't really make a difference? t summits, sometimes doesn't really make a difference?— summits, sometimes doesn't really make a difference? i think you need all of that. make a difference? i think you need all of that- i — make a difference? i think you need all of that. i have _ make a difference? i think you need all of that. i have been _ make a difference? i think you need all of that. i have been to _ make a difference? i think you need all of that. i have been to these i all of that. i have been to these big summits and i agree with you, they can be a massive jamboree. but at the same time, when the future of climate talks depends on trust between the countries in the global south who are desperate for the global north to actually put some money on the table and to demonstrate by their own actions that they are serious, then these meetings do matter. glasgow agreed to a so—called ratchet mechanism, where we are supposed to be increasing our ambition when it comes to climate reductions. the uk has not increased its reduction target since last year, since glasgow, that is bad news, contrary to what michael gove are saying. we need to be there to send a symbol that we are serious about these talks and we'll put our money where our mouth is. tt talks and we'll put our money where our mouth is— our mouth is. it will be very interesting _ our mouth is. it will be very interesting to _ our mouth is. it will be very interesting to see _ our mouth is. it will be very interesting to see what i our mouth is. it will be very i interesting to see what happens. our mouth is. it will be very - interesting to see what happens. we will be talking about that summit in the next couple of weeks. i want to talk about another issue. the world cup is coming. football fan or not, it will be anywhere but there is an important element of the fact the tournament will be in qatar, which has a bad record when it comes to lgbt people. there is an article this morning aboutjohn fashanu, whose brother took his own life who is gay and tells the mirror that qatar needs to learn to accept fans rather than the other way around. iain in your role as new chair of stonewall, they were told this week to show respect to the host country, is that the right message? i the host country, is that the right messaue? ., . .,, i, message? i notice as well that number 10 _ message? i notice as well that number 10 downing _ message? i notice as well that number 10 downing street - message? i notice as well that l number 10 downing street very, message? i notice as well that - number10 downing street very, very number 10 downing street very, very quickly. _ number 10 downing street very, very quickly, shall we say corrected the foreign— quickly, shall we say corrected the foreign secretary's position? it was the wrong _ foreign secretary's position? it was the wrong thing to say. look, for me. _ the wrong thing to say. look, for me. and — the wrong thing to say. look, for me, and we've seen this in countless examples _ me, and we've seen this in countless examples of— me, and we've seen this in countless examples of countries around the world _ examples of countries around the world that — examples of countries around the world that are looking to liberalise their law — world that are looking to liberalise their laws. they are really destructive laws around lgbtq plus people _ destructive laws around lgbtq plus people. only this year, i resigned from _ people. only this year, i resigned from a _ people. only this year, i resigned from a role — people. only this year, i resigned from a role that the government had asked _ from a role that the government had asked me _ from a role that the government had asked me to— from a role that the government had asked me to do, to be the lgbtq business — asked me to do, to be the lgbtq business champions asked why did i resign? _ business champions asked why did i resign? i_ business champions asked why did i resign? i resigned because the government wasn't pushing forward with its— government wasn't pushing forward with its manifesto commitments. alongside that, we collapsed a conference which should have been an opportunity— conference which should have been an opportunity for business, full civil society. _ opportunity for business, full civil society, for— opportunity for business, full civil society, for everybody that is interested in that policy to be able to push— interested in that policy to be able to push forward reforms. a lot interested in that policy to be able to push forward reforms.— to push forward reforms. a lot of this debate. _ to push forward reforms. a lot of this debate, particularly - to push forward reforms. a lot of this debate, particularly around | to push forward reforms. a lot of i this debate, particularly around the issue of transit rights, has become very heated, very aggressive sometimes. —— trans rights. do you think it has gone too far? there are some women who are gender critical and asking questions about this debate and feel they have been shut out and unfairly targeted. what would you say to people? this out and unfairly targeted. what would you say to people? this is my first ublic would you say to people? this is my first public appearance _ would you say to people? this is my first public appearance as _ would you say to people? this is my first public appearance as the - first public appearance as the incoming _ first public appearance as the incoming chair of stonewall. anyone who knows _ incoming chair of stonewall. anyone who knows me knows i believe in a hi i who knows me knows i believe in a big teht~ _ who knows me knows i believe in a big teht~ i— who knows me knows i believe in a big tent. i have engaged with the labour— big tent. i have engaged with the labour party so far. i have met actually — labour party so far. i have met actually government ministers in the previous— actually government ministers in the previous administration who have given— previous administration who have given commitments that they will push forward on a ban on conversion therapy~ _ push forward on a ban on conversion therapy. what i want to do is talk to women's— therapy. what i want to do is talk to women's groups. i want to talk... waht _ to women's groups. i want to talk... want to— to women's groups. i want to talk... want to talk— to women's groups. i want to talk... want to talk generally, laura. i want _ want to talk generally, laura. i want to— want to talk generally, laura. i want to get this conversation going, i want to get this conversation going, lwaht _ want to get this conversation going, lwaht to— want to get this conversation going, i want to stop debating people's lives _ i want to stop debating people's lives and — i want to stop debating people's lives and get everybody to come together— lives and get everybody to come together again.— lives and get everybody to come together again. more shouting... less shouting _ together again. more shouting... less shouting more _ together again. more shouting... | less shouting more conversations more _ less shouting more conversations more policy action. gk, less shouting more conversations more policy action.— more policy action. 0k, finally, i can't help _ more policy action. 0k, finally, i can't help but — more policy action. 0k, finally, i can't help but show— more policy action. 0k, finally, i can't help but show you - more policy action. 0k, finally, i. can't help but show you something more policy action. 0k, finally, i- can't help but show you something in the papers this morning. the sunday times rolls back the curtain on liz truss' expectation of what she expected when she won on foreign trips. philip hammond, when you are chancellor, foreign secretary travelling the world, did you make these demands, what was in your rider? i these demands, what was in your rider? ~' ., , ., rider? i think when i was in that role, we still _ rider? i think when i was in that role, we still had _ rider? i think when i was in that role, we still had fresh - rider? i think when i was in that role, we still had fresh in - rider? i think when i was in that role, we still had fresh in our i role, we still had fresh in our minds — role, we still had fresh in our minds the _ role, we still had fresh in our minds the liam _ role, we still had fresh in our minds the liam byrne - role, we still had fresh in our. minds the liam byrne incident, role, we still had fresh in our- minds the liam byrne incident, the memo _ minds the liam byrne incident, the memo he _ minds the liam byrne incident, the memo he issued _ minds the liam byrne incident, the memo he issued to— minds the liam byrne incident, the memo he issued to his _ minds the liam byrne incident, the memo he issued to his civil- minds the liam byrne incident, thel memo he issued to his civil servants coming _ memo he issued to his civil servants coming into— memo he issued to his civil servants coming into office. _ memo he issued to his civil servants coming into office. i— memo he issued to his civil servants coming into office. ithink— memo he issued to his civil servants coming into office. i think that- memo he issued to his civil servants coming into office. i think that the l coming into office. i think that the lesson— coming into office. i think that the lesson was— coming into office. i think that the lesson was clear, _ coming into office. i think that the lesson was clear, do _ coming into office. i think that the lesson was clear, do not - coming into office. i think that the lesson was clear, do not make - coming into office. i think that the| lesson was clear, do not make any such— lesson was clear, do not make any such demands _ lesson was clear, do not make any such demands that _ lesson was clear, do not make any such demands that will— lesson was clear, do not make any such demands that will be - lesson was clear, do not make any. such demands that will be published and will— such demands that will be published and will be _ such demands that will be published and will be used _ such demands that will be published and will be used in _ such demands that will be published and will be used in evidence - such demands that will be published and will be used in evidence against| and will be used in evidence against you. and will be used in evidence against you so _ and will be used in evidence against ou. ., , , ., , you. so no requests, no white lilies are particularly _ you. so no requests, no white lilies are particularly colour _ you. so no requests, no white lilies are particularly colour of _ are particularly colour of chocolate?— are particularly colour of chocolate? ., , ., chocolate? no requirements, go with the flow. never _ chocolate? no requirements, go with the flow. never know _ chocolate? no requirements, go with the flow. never know quite _ chocolate? no requirements, go with the flow. never know quite what - chocolate? no requirements, go with the flow. never know quite what to i the flow. never know quite what to expect _ the flow. never know quite what to expect when — the flow. never know quite what to expect when you _ the flow. never know quite what to expect when you get _ the flow. never know quite what to expect when you get there - the flow. never know quite what to expect when you get there but - the flow. never know quite what to i expect when you get there but always be ready _ expect when you get there but always be ready to _ expect when you get there but always be ready to smile _ expect when you get there but always be ready to smile and _ expect when you get there but always be ready to smile and smooth - expect when you get there but always be ready to smile and smooth it - be ready to smile and smooth it over~ _ be ready to smile and smooth it over. �* y ., . be ready to smile and smooth it over. �* , ., . , be ready to smile and smooth it over.�* . , ., thank you all for now, more from you at the end of the programme. we love a bit of argument and debate in here, but back in the 1960s, the idea of political pundits taking each other on on tv was unheard of. our ancestors at abc tv in the states had a brain wave. they decided to invite two big, famous political thinkers to spar live on air. the liberal writer gore vidal and his nemesis william buckley, who at that time was a defender of southern segregation, went head—to—head, but no—one was quite prepared for what happened next. with millions watching, their fiery exchanges were part of the troubled landscape in america in the late '60s and their spats are the basis for a new play by the political playwright james graham that's about to open. its stars are david harewood and zachary quinto, who are here this morning, but first, a clip of them in rehearsal. i don't think it's right to present mr gore vidal as a political commentator of any consequence, since he is nothing more than a literary producer of perverted hollywood—minded prose. now, now, bill. careful now. almost through. as usual, mr buckley, with his enormous and thrilling charm, manages to get away from the issue towards comedy. he is almost always on the right, i think, and always in the wrong. and you certainly must maintain your blood—thirsty reputation, bill, as the marie antoinette of the right wing. mr smith, i was invited here and i'm prepared to try to talk about the republican convention, but i maintain it's very difficult to do so when you have someone like this who speaks in such burps and who likes to be naughty, which has proved a very highly merchandisable vice. not unlike your so public vices. no, i don't have any public vices. wickedness, bill. funny but vicious. both of them are here now to stop thank you so much for coming in. firstly, iwant to ask you both, why is it relevant now for our audiences to rewatch this? sitting here listening to all of you debate _ sitting here listening to all of you debate the issues of the day, i feel like these — debate the issues of the day, i feel like these conversations can be traced — like these conversations can be traced back to this moment in media history. _ traced back to this moment in media history, when this decision was made to bring _ history, when this decision was made to bring opinions into a format that had never— to bring opinions into a format that had never really made space for them before _ had never really made space for them before. these two characters we are playing _ before. these two characters we are playing represent the origin of that and then— playing represent the origin of that and then it is relevant to trace where — and then it is relevant to trace where it— and then it is relevant to trace where it led us and where we have arrived _ where it led us and where we have arrived. ~ , , ., ., arrived. absolutely. you have basically got _ arrived. absolutely. you have basically got someone - arrived. absolutely. you have basically got someone on - arrived. absolutely. you have basically got someone on the | arrived. absolutely. you have - basically got someone on the right and someone on the left. we are living in a very, very polarised world right now, with very little sort of intellectual or sort of discourse between the two. we are almost further apart now than i think we have probably ever been and i think this documentary or this play really points to that moment and brings it to the fore. who play really points to that moment and brings it to the fore. who would the be and brings it to the fore. who would they be now? _ and brings it to the fore. who would they be now? there _ and brings it to the fore. who would they be now? there are _ and brings it to the fore. who would they be now? there are these - and brings it to the fore. who would they be now? there are these huge | they be now? there are these huge political thinkers, they be now? there are these huge politicalthinkers, do they be now? there are these huge political thinkers, do you see people in our modern discourse on the side of the pond or the other who could actually take on these roles? there is lots of shouting... as you are just saying, i think there — as you are just saying, i think there ism _ as you are just saying, i think there is... being here, coming from there is... being here, coming from the states. — there is... being here, coming from the states. i— there is... being here, coming from the states, i will say it feels like there _ the states, i will say it feels like there is— the states, i will say it feels like there is perceptibly more of an integrity— there is perceptibly more of an integrity in your conversations about — integrity in your conversations about politics and about the landscape. i think where i about politics and about the landscape. ithink where i have just come _ landscape. ithink where i have just come from — landscape. ithink where i have just come from and where i live, there's been _ come from and where i live, there's been an— come from and where i live, there's been an incredible denigration of conversation.— been an incredible denigration of conversation. political discourse. to a dangerous _ conversation. political discourse. to a dangerous degree. - conversation. political discourse. i to a dangerous degree. dangerous? yes, if ou to a dangerous degree. dangerous? yes. if you look— to a dangerous degree. dangerous? yes, if you look at _ to a dangerous degree. dangerous? yes, if you look at what _ to a dangerous degree. dangerous? yes, if you look at what is _ yes, if you look at what is happening now, ifeel like yes, if you look at what is happening now, i feel like violence is being _ happening now, i feel like violence is being incited left and right in our country in particular. sol don't — our country in particular. sol don't know _ our country in particular. sol don't know. i think the thing about gore _ don't know. i think the thing about gore vidal— don't know. i think the thing about gore vidal and william buckley, wherever— gore vidal and william buckley, wherever you fall in a political ideological spectrum, they both believe — ideological spectrum, they both believe passionately and argued substantively about where they were coming _ substantively about where they were coming from, which i don't think is as true _ coming from, which i don't think is as true today. coming from, which i don't think is as true today-— as true today. let's have a click of -- clip of — as true today. let's have a click of -- clip of how— as true today. let's have a click of -- clip of how they _ as true today. let's have a click of -- clip of how they actually - as true today. let's have a click of -- clip of how they actually spoke | —— clip of how they actually spoke to each other. the point of the american democracy is you can express... some people call you a nazi too. ..any point of view you want. shut up a minute. stop calling me a crypto nazi... let's stop calling names... ..or i'll sock you in the gooddamn face and you'll stay plastered. gentlemen, let's. .. i will suck you in the face. it is pretty brutal, isn't it?- i will suck you in the face. it is pretty brutal, isn't it? that moment there was in — pretty brutal, isn't it? that moment there was in the _ pretty brutal, isn't it? that moment there was in the heat _ pretty brutal, isn't it? that moment there was in the heat of— pretty brutal, isn't it? that moment there was in the heat of battle - pretty brutal, isn't it? that moment there was in the heat of battle and i there was in the heat of battle and i think that is the moment i play, william buckley, regretted for the rest of his life, where he let... he let his cool slip. but prior to that, the debate was very much a battle of ideas and is actually quite humorous. the battle of ideas and is actually quite humorous.— battle of ideas and is actually quite humorous. battle of ideas and is actually ruite humorous. ., ., ., quite humorous. the two of them are ureat quite humorous. the two of them are great wordsmiths. _ quite humorous. the two of them are great wordsmiths. it _ quite humorous. the two of them are great wordsmiths. it looked - quite humorous. the two of them are great wordsmiths. it looked like - great wordsmiths. it looked like they were enjoying it a bit. i want to ask you about playing that character, though. obviously he was taken to task over some of his racist attitudes, his defence of the south and segregation, how did the conversation go when you are asked to play him? at first i turned it down. i could not quite see howl at first i turned it down. i could not quite see how i could get there. it is important as an actor that you do not necessarilyjudge your character. i had to delve into his politics, try to understand him and find a way into his humanity. whilst he did originally vote against some of the early civil rights moves, he was more of an elitist than a racist and he did not feel blacks were ready to take positions of power. when he saw how articulate and how brave and forward thinking and progressive many black republicans were, he very much changed his tune and throughout the 70s he predicted there would be a black president before kennedy. he there would be a black president before kennedy.— before kennedy. he went on a 'ourne . before kennedy. he went on a journey- he — before kennedy. he went on a journey. he did _ before kennedy. he went on a journey. he did and _ before kennedy. he went on a journey. he did and he - before kennedy. he went on a journey. he did and he did - before kennedy. he went on a - journey. he did and he did moderate his osition journey. he did and he did moderate his position and _ journey. he did and he did moderate his position and once _ journey. he did and he did moderate his position and once he _ journey. he did and he did moderate his position and once he saw- journey. he did and he did moderate his position and once he saw how - his position and once he saw how violent southern segregationists were, very much changed his tune. zachary, finally, a lot of our viewers will know you from spock in star trek, viewers will know you from spock in startrek, our viewers will know you from spock in star trek, our new prime minister is a fan of star wars and ijust want to ask you about that, we have our first british indian prime minister in this country. there have been some commentators in america saying there has been a backlash, there have been racist feelings towards the new prime minister that has been denied here, how would you see that? in the context of the star trek conversation, there is so much inclusivity— conversation, there is so much inclusivity at the heart of the franchise _ inclusivity at the heart of the franchise and i feel like anything we can— franchise and i feel like anything we can do— franchise and i feel like anything we can do to expand and challenge people's— we can do to expand and challenge people's expectations or rigidity is what we _ people's expectations or rigidity is what we have a responsibility to do. ithink— what we have a responsibility to do. i think part — what we have a responsibility to do. i think part of that is conversation, discourse. part of the honour— conversation, discourse. part of the honour of— conversation, discourse. part of the honour of playing a character like gore _ honour of playing a character like gore vidal— honour of playing a character like gore vidal is not only was he an intellectual tighten but he was also a gay— intellectual tighten but he was also a gay icon— intellectual tighten but he was also a gay icon in many ways and had forward—thinking beliefs that were unimpeachable, uncompromised, ahead of his time, _ unimpeachable, uncompromised, ahead of his time, and i think that is the kind of— of his time, and i think that is the kind of conversation i am interested in being _ kind of conversation i am interested in being a _ kind of conversation i am interested in being a part of, playing a character— in being a part of, playing a character that so truly represents that with — character that so truly represents that with real authenticity and integrity, it is something i am really— integrity, it is something i am really excited to do.— really excited to do. zachary quinto, david _ really excited to do. zachary quinto, david harewood, i really excited to do. zachary i quinto, david harewood, thank really excited to do. zachary - quinto, david harewood, thank you for coming and having a conversation with us. and the play best of enemies byjames graham opens next month in the west end. those characters will be brought to life. now, we always want to know what you think, especially we want to hear you ideas for the sorts of things we should be covering. you can e—mail us at [email protected]. if you use social media, then talk about us using the hashtag #bbclaurak. and for live chat about what's going on right now, go to bbc.co.uk/news and click on the live page. after the show, i willjoin you there, posting some of my thoughts about what we have heard. on one of those issues, the pressure on rishi sunak over his new home secretary. days into his newjob, he reappointed suella braverman and she had a register down the week before after she was discovered to have broken security was —— she had resigned the week before. now we will discuss that and other issues with yvette cooper, shadow home secretary. great to have you here. we showed our viewers suella braverman having realised the error, told of her error, sent an e—mail that morning asking the recipient to delete and ignore the message she had sent to them in error. what do you think the government should do about that? does it change what has happened here? i about that? does it change what has happened here?— happened here? i think it adds to the serious _ happened here? i think it adds to the serious list _ happened here? i think it adds to the serious list of _ happened here? i think it adds to the serious list of questions - happened here? i think it adds to the serious list of questions we i happened here? i think it adds to i the serious list of questions we now have about this reckless reappointment of suella braverman to be home secretary. there was obviously the initial breach of the ministerial code, the security lapses involved, but now questions about whether she has given an accurate description of what happened. she said she reported it straightaway, there are other reports as well that she didn't and was confronted on this. also, the further reports of her being involved in other security leaks or security leak inquiry is around both a case involving the security service and also involving the leak of sensitive legal advice. we would like as much of the information as possible to be answered to parliament and anything sensitive to go to the intelligence and security committee because it is too important, national security is too important, national security is too important, it goes to the heart of rishi sunak�*s error ofjudgment as well. rishi sunak's error of 'udgment as well. , ., . , rishi sunak's error of 'udgment as well. . , ., ., ., well. everyone except national security is _ well. everyone except national security is paramount. - well. everyone except national| security is paramount. however well. everyone except national- security is paramount. however swell above and has accepted she made a mistake, she has apologised, she has said sorry. —— suella braverman. it was an error, she has admitted it, move on? i was an error, she has admitted it, move on?— was an error, she has admitted it, move on? , ., ~ . ., move on? i listened to michael gove bein: move on? i listened to michael gove being interviewed _ move on? i listened to michael gove being interviewed earlier, _ move on? i listened to michael gove being interviewed earlier, and - move on? i listened to michael gove being interviewed earlier, and i- being interviewed earlier, and i thought he was really badly minimising issues around national security. we have seen from the reports overnight about allegations of other security breaches, cyber security threats... serious questions... security threats... serious questions. . .— security threats... serious questions... security threats... serious ruestions... . , ., questions... when it comes to the thin we questions. .. when it comes to the thing we know— questions... when it comes to the thing we know about. _ questions... when it comes to the thing we know about. labour, - questions... when it comes to the i thing we know about. labour, people quit the government and came back later, david blunkett resigned after a scandal, he was back, peter mandelson resigned, came back in, not unprecedented for politicians to mess up, say sorry, get anotherjob. if you breach the ministerial code in the six days previously, and then the prime minister re—appoints you to thejob that the prime minister re—appoints you to the job that is in charge of security, national security, that takes this immensely seriously, still a huge number of questions to be answered about whether it was the only occasion when there have been these kinds of security lapses, whether she had been involved in other kinds of security lapses where there have been allegations... do ou there have been allegations... do you think she should stand aside? resigned? let me finish the point first. where there is also a report of the cabinet secretary and cabinet office having advised against disappointment. keir starmer has made clear rishi sunak should be replacing her. it was an error of judgment to appoint her this immensely seriousjob judgment to appoint her this immensely serious job and to do so for the sake of the political deal, just in order to get his way into number 10, just in order to get his way into numberio, it just in order to get his way into number 10, it shows a callousness towards national security issues. he would i am sure deny that is what it is about. i am sure we will hear more about this moving story. i want to ask you about what is happening at the immigration processing centre in kent. 2600 people are being held there, the maximum capacity is about 1000 less than that. clearly unsatisfactory situation. we can see pictures of the centre now. with a labour government spend more money on funding for immigration centres? what you have got to do is overhaul the whole system and have much stronger action to prevent the dangerous boats crossing the channel putting lives at risk in the first place, and you have to speed up the whole system. there is a reason why they have ended up with these appalling conditions with diphtheria outbreaks and so on. it is because the decision—making on asylum has collapsed. they were taking twice as many asylum decisions a year six years ago as they are now. the collapse in decision—making and additional legislation they have brought in which is lengthening the time has created huge backlogs. it is a problem of the conservatives making and it is theirfailure is a problem of the conservatives making and it is their failure to speed up the decision—making that has led to this. speed up the decision-making that has led to this.— has led to this. easy to criticise, harder to _ has led to this. easy to criticise, harder to sell. _ has led to this. easy to criticise, harder to sell. you _ has led to this. easy to criticise, harder to sell. you need - has led to this. easy to criticise, harder to sell. you need to - has led to this. easy to criticise, harder to sell. you need to get. has led to this. easy to criticise, - harder to sell. you need to get back to levels of — harder to sell. you need to get back to levels of decision-making - harder to sell. you need to get back to levels of decision-making we - harder to sell. you need to get backj to levels of decision-making we had to levels of decision—making we had six years ago, much higher levels under the labour government, we also need a new agreement in place with france around the channel crossings. and we need a significant increase in activities of the national crime agency. we have proliferation of organised criminal activity in the channel that has escalated in the last couple of years.— channel that has escalated in the last couple of years. yvette cooper, if ou last couple of years. yvette cooper, if you make — last couple of years. yvette cooper, if you make it— last couple of years. yvette cooper, if you make it easier _ last couple of years. yvette cooper, if you make it easier for _ last couple of years. yvette cooper, if you make it easier for people - last couple of years. yvette cooper, if you make it easier for people to i if you make it easier for people to come, doesn't itjust encourage the numbers upwards? what come, doesn't itjust encourage the numbers upwards?— come, doesn't itjust encourage the numbers upwards? what i have talked about is cracking _ numbers upwards? what i have talked about is cracking down _ numbers upwards? what i have talked about is cracking down on _ numbers upwards? what i have talked about is cracking down on criminal- about is cracking down on criminal gangs exploiting people in the first place. there is a tiny amount of activity by the national crime agency at the moment. speeding up the process. — agency at the moment. speeding up the process. i— agency at the moment. speeding up the process, i am _ agency at the moment. speeding up the process, i am not— agency at the moment. speeding up the process, i am not saying - agency at the moment. speeding up the process, i am not saying if - agency at the moment. speeding up the process, i am not saying if it - the process, i am not saying if it is right or wrong, if you speed it up, does it encourage more people to come to the uk? you up, does it encourage more people to come to the uk?— come to the uk? you speed up the rocess, come to the uk? you speed up the process. you _ come to the uk? you speed up the process. you get — come to the uk? you speed up the process, you get proper _ come to the uk? you speed up the process, you get proper decisionsl process, you get proper decisions being made so refugees get the support they need, if they have fled persecution and conflict. as a country, we have always done our bit to support those who have fled persecution and we should do so but it also means those who are not refugees should be swiftly returned. it means you have an effective system, ratherthan it means you have an effective system, rather than one dragging on for ever and costing huge amounts. on principle, would you like the level of migration to increase or to full? 240,000 people came to the uk this year. would you like it higher or lower. taste this year. would you like it higher or lower. . , , or lower. we support the points-based _ or lower. we support the points-based system. i or lower. we support the l points-based system. the or lower. we support the - points-based system. the whole or lower. we support the _ points-based system. the whole point points—based system. the whole point of it should be you look at it area by area rather than net migration targets. we do not fully know what is going on. it looks as though suella braverman is trying to return to the failed net migration tarret... ~ ., i. ~ :: i: i: i: to the failed net migration tarret... ~ ., ~ :: ijijij ., target... would you like 240,000 to no target... would you like 240,000 to to down target. .. would you like 240,000 to go down or— target... would you like 240,000 to go down or up? _ target... would you like 240,000 to go down or up? luncheon _ target... would you like 240,000 to go down or up? luncheon of - go down or up? luncheon of principle, isn't it? the principle is, do principle, isn't it? the principle is. do you _ principle, isn't it? the principle is, do you think _ principle, isn't it? the principle is, do you think you _ principle, isn't it? the principle is, do you think you should - principle, isn't it? the principle i is, do you think you should target net migration? —— a question of principle, isn't it? suella braverman seems to want to go back to david cameron. you need to let me finish the point. or whether you have the approach of liz truss, which seem to be have a higher net migration target to have an impact on growth. we think both are the wrong approach. you should be looking sector by sector. we are very short _ looking sector by sector. we are very short of _ looking sector by sector. we are very short of time. _ looking sector by sector. we are very short of time. health - looking sector by sector. we are very short of time. health and i very short of time. health and social care. — very short of time. health and social care, biggest _ very short of time. health and social care, biggest area - very short of time. health and social care, biggest area for. social care, biggest area for overseas equipment, excellent visa right to support people, but we should be doing far more training at home, that is what labour would do. that would reduce the number in that area, reducing the need of overseas recruitment of doctors and nurses because we should be training far more ourselves, and also increasing fair pay agreement for social care as well. that is a responsible approach, look at the evidence sector by sector.— approach, look at the evidence sector by sector. thank you for cominr sector by sector. thank you for coming in. _ sector by sector. thank you for coming in, yvette _ sector by sector. thank you for coming in, yvette cooper. - it's nearly 10am, yes, 10am if you haven't got round to changing your clocks yet. this morning we have heard the levelling up secretary, michael gove, defending the position of the home secretary, suella braverman. suella apologised for the mistake that she made and indeed resigned from government. but the prime minister has made it clear that suella deserves a second chance and i'm glad that suella is in cabinet, because she's a first—rate front—rank politician. well, very brief final word. do you think suella braverman will survive in herjob? i think suella braverman will survive in her 'ob? ., , think suella braverman will survive in her 'ob? . , , , in her 'ob? i fear she will but she would in herjob? i fear she will but she would rrot _ in herjob? i fear she will but she would not and _ in herjob? i fear she will but she would not and it _ in herjob? i fear she will but she would not and it completely - would not and it completely undermines what rishi sunak said when he would bring integrity and accountability to hisjob, he has failed at the first hurdle, she should go, they should be an inquiry. the idea she is there because she got him into power, it stinks. , ., ., i because she got him into power, it - stinks._ i understand stinks. philip hammond? i understand what the prime _ stinks. philip hammond? i understand what the prime minister _ stinks. philip hammond? i understand what the prime minister wants - stinks. philip hammond? i understand what the prime minister wants to - what the prime minister wants to bring _ what the prime minister wants to bring her— what the prime minister wants to bring her back, i think he needs to be very— bring her back, i think he needs to be very careful about the signals it is sending — be very careful about the signals it is sending about the ministerial code _ is sending about the ministerial code i— is sending about the ministerial code i am _ is sending about the ministerial code. lam more interested in what it says _ code. lam more interested in what it says about — code. lam more interested in what it says about internal tory party politics — it says about internal tory party politics and the difficult decisions because — politics and the difficult decisions because one difficult decision that has to— because one difficult decision that has to be — because one difficult decision that has to be made to get economic growth — has to be made to get economic growth is — has to be made to get economic growth is to have a more relaxed approach — growth is to have a more relaxed approach to migration for work. sounds — approach to migration for work. sounds like you are not happy about her being in thejob. i’m sounds like you are not happy about her being in the job.— her being in the 'ob. i'm concerned about her policy— her being in the job. i'm concerned about her policy position _ her being in the job. i'm concerned about her policy position on - her being in the job. i'm concerned about her policy position on this i about her policy position on this issue _ about her policy position on this issue. , ., ., ., i about her policy position on this issue-_ i am - about her policy position on this| issue._ i am paid about her policy position on this i issue._ i am paid to issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this, issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this. i— issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this. i have _ issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this, i have no _ issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this, i have no idea. _ issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this, i have no idea. 0k. - issue. yes or no, iain? i am paid to do this, i have no idea. 0k. great | do this, i have no idea. 0k. great trio ou do this, i have no idea. 0k. great trio you have _ do this, i have no idea. 0k. great trio you have been. _ do this, i have no idea. 0k. great trio you have been. thank- do this, i have no idea. 0k. great trio you have been. thank you i do this, i have no idea. 0k. great trio you have been. thank you forj trio you have been. thank you for joining us. philip hammond, iain anderson, caroline lucas. that is it for our first anderson, caroline lucas. that is it for ourfirst programme anderson, caroline lucas. that is it for our first programme with rishi sunak as prime minister. one thing that is becoming clear this morning is that his government wants you to think they are the steady — even the boring — option. although, as we've heard, his appointment of suella braverman as home secretary is already causing problems. it is not going to be dull. michael gove could not promise benefits will rise in line with inflation. something he previously said he wants to see, may be warming us up foran wants to see, may be warming us up for an announcement in a couple of weeks. rishi sunak's popularity soared when he gave out money by borrowing to keep the country going. but times have got tougher since then and money tighter and he has not yet had to make the myriad of difficult decisions that face any prime minister. what will he do about an overcrowded nhs? will he come up with a proper plan for social care? how to solve the problem of a housing market that doesn't work for many people? and always in the background, rising inflation making us all poorer? whatever he does, being boring isn't an option. thank you for watching this morning. if you have missed any of this programme, you can watch again on the iplayer. until next week, goodbye. this is bbc news broadcasting in the uk and around the globe. our top stories... south korea is in a period of national mourning after more than 150 people were killed in a crush. and in a crush. i turned around, and i told the crowd, and i turned around, and i told the crowd, you can't come this way. people are dying. as mourners line the streets of seoul to pay their respects, south korea's president promises a thorough investigation. translation: a tragedy and disaster that should not _ translation: a tragedy and disaster that should not have _ translation: a tragedy and disaster that should not have happened - translation: a tragedy and disaster that should not have happened took i that should not have happened took place in _ that should not have happened took place in the heart of seoul. i hope that the _ place in the heart of seoul. i hope that the people who are injured will .et that the people who are injured will get better soon. british government minister michael gove says suella braverman deserves

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