picking for the opposition. this crisis is the inevitable result of 13 years — crisis is the inevitable result of 13 years of _ crisis is the inevitable result of 13 years of cutting corners, botch jobs, _ 13 years of cutting corners, botch jobs, sticking plaster politics. and alleuedl , jobs, sticking plaster politics. and allegedly. a _ jobs, sticking plaster politics. fific allegedly, a westminster staffer arrested for spying for china. so we will ask this morning, while the uk bakes, how much more can go wrong when the prime minister is in the indian son? the man responsible forjailsjoins us. can the justice secretary tell us how on earth daniel khalife escaped? —— the indian sun. jonathan reynolds, who'd be labour's captain of industry, is live in the studio too. jonathan reynolds, who'd be labour's captain of industry, is live in the studio too. and an exclusive interview from across the atlantic with this powerful duo — the uk and the us' most senior military men, admiral tony radakin and general mark milley, talk ukraine. hello. with us on a busy weekend for news, just back from his own visit to ukraine, a national treasure, i think, stephen fry. salma shah, an adviser who's seen plenty of government crises. and with impeccable timing, the chief insepctor of prisons, charlie taylor. no surprise lots of the front pages go on the escape and capture of daniel khalfe. there's the independent. the canal path in west london where he was found. the mail on sunday has clues about how they claim spooks tracked him down. the mirror says he'd bragged that he would escape. and a picture of the terrible earthquake in morocco. we can show you some of the latest pictures of what's happening there. these are prone images of some of the attempt to rescue people from the attempt to rescue people from the rubble, an appalling situation unfolding —— drone images. and what's getting a lot of tongues wagging this morning? last, the front page of the sunday times, an extraordinay story. a house of comons staffer has been arrested on suspicion of spying for the chinese. let's kick off with that. you worked in the home office among other departments, salma, what will be going on in government now that we know this? the going on in government now that we know this? . ., , ., know this? the particulars of the story about _ know this? the particulars of the story about this _ know this? the particulars of the story about this parliamentary i story about this parliamentary researcher having influence or relationships with ministers with classified information, so they have not already— classified information, so they have not already been part of the investigation that led to his arrest. _ investigation that led to his arrest, and certainly there will be looking _ arrest, and certainly there will be looking to — arrest, and certainly there will be looking to understand what contact this person had, whether there has been _ this person had, whether there has been any— this person had, whether there has been any breach of that classified information, and certainly what other— information, and certainly what other relationships they may have been _ other relationships they may have been involved with with just researcher. been involved with with 'ust researcher.i been involved with with 'ust researcher. , ., ., ., , been involved with with 'ust researcher. �* , ., ., ., researcher. and these allegations at the moment. _ researcher. and these allegations at the moment, we don't— researcher. and these allegations at the moment, we don't know - researcher. and these allegations at the moment, we don't know exact i researcher. and these allegations at. the moment, we don't know exact what has happened, we should be clear about that, but how serious is something like this, how much of a concern should it be? by, something like this, how much of a concern should it be?— something like this, how much of a concern should it be? a big concern in terms of — concern should it be? a big concern in terms of diplomacy _ concern should it be? a big concern in terms of diplomacy with - concern should it be? a big concern in terms of diplomacy with china, . in terms of diplomacy with china, people _ in terms of diplomacy with china, people are — in terms of diplomacy with china, people are talking about this being an escalation, so the diplomats will have to _ an escalation, so the diplomats will have to do — an escalation, so the diplomats will have to do a — an escalation, so the diplomats will have to do a lot of work to understand that, in terms of the seriousness of this researcher, it is not _ seriousness of this researcher, it is not about— seriousness of this researcher, it is not about exposing secrets as far as we _ is not about exposing secrets as far as we can _ is not about exposing secrets as far as we can tell at this point. the pro-minister — as we can tell at this point. the pro-minister says _ as we can tell at this point. tue: pro—minister says this as we can tell at this point. tte: pro—minister says this has been raised at the g20 summit this morning. let's talk about the biggest story of the week. —— the prime minister. the escape from prison by daniel khalife. stephen, you spent some time in prison as a teenager, and have since volunteered at a deal, what is it like? it is teenager, and have since volunteered at a deal, what is it like?— at a deal, what is it like? it is a su ualid at a deal, what is it like? it is a squalid place. _ at a deal, what is it like? it is a squalid place, not— at a deal, what is it like? it is a squalid place, not very - at a deal, what is it like? it is a squalid place, not very happy. l at a deal, what is it like? it is aj squalid place, not very happy. i went in to help with dab radio station, which is very well done, and there are other things that come in from the outside, theatre productions and so on. they are all charming efforts to raise the sort of happiness levels of very unhappy people. but it is crowded, all of london prisons are a very crowded, pentonville was built for 500 and has something like 1200 now. it is a pretty grim situation. there is a lot of overspill, a lot of them are waiting to be sorted out into abc and so on. waiting to be sorted out into abc and so on-_ waiting to be sorted out into abc and so on. . , , ., and so on. charlie, 'ust before, we are about and so on. charlie, 'ust before, we about to h and so on. charlie, 'ust before, we are about to hear_ and so on. charlie, just before, we are about to hear from _ and so on. charlie, just before, we are about to hear from the - and so on. charlie, just before, we are about to hear from the justice l are about to hear from thejustice secretary, what wider problems has thus thrown up? t secretary, what wider problems has thus thrown up?— thus thrown up? i think1's is fairly typical _ thus thrown up? i think1's is fairly typical of _ thus thrown up? i think1's is fairly typical of most - thus thrown up? i think 1's is l fairly typical of most inner-city fairly typical of most inner—city victorian— fairly typical of most inner—city victorian local— fairly typical of most inner—city victorian local dozens- fairly typical of most inner—city victorian local dozens of- fairly typical of most inner—city victorian local dozens of which| victorian local dozens of which there — victorian local dozens of which there are _ victorian local dozens of which there are still— victorian local dozens of which there are still a _ victorian local dozens of which there are still a huge - victorian local dozens of which there are still a huge amount. victorian local dozens of which . there are still a huge amount that are open, — there are still a huge amount that are open, and— there are still a huge amount that are open, and there _ there are still a huge amount that are open, and there are _ there are still a huge amount that are open, and there are three - are open, and there are three things” — are open, and there are three things” it _ are open, and there are three things” it is— are open, and there are three things,, it is about _ are open, and there are three things,, it is about having - are open, and there are three - things,, it is about having enough staff of— things,, it is about having enough staff of the — things,, it is about having enough staff of the right _ things,, it is about having enough staff of the right party, _ things,, it is about having enough staff of the right party, it - things,, it is about having enough staff of the right party, it is- staff of the right party, it is about — staff of the right party, it is about the _ staff of the right party, it is about the level _ staff of the right party, it is about the level of - staff of the right party, it is- about the level of overcrowding that you have, _ about the level of overcrowding that you have, i— about the level of overcrowding that you have, ithink— about the level of overcrowding that you have, i think wandsworth - about the level of overcrowding that you have, i think wandsworth is - about the level of overcrowding that| you have, i think wandsworth is 600 over what— you have, i think wandsworth is 600 over what it — you have, i think wandsworth is 600 over what it was _ you have, i think wandsworth is 600 over what it was originally _ you have, i think wandsworth is 600 over what it was originally designed i over what it was originally designed for, over what it was originally designed for. it— over what it was originally designed for. it is— over what it was originally designed for. it is about _ over what it was originally designed for, it is about 1600 _ over what it was originally designed for, it is about 1600 prisoners, - over what it was originally designed for, it is about 1600 prisoners, and| for, it is about 1600 prisoners, and that means — for, it is about 1600 prisoners, and that means lots _ for, it is about 1600 prisoners, and that means lots of _ for, it is about 1600 prisoners, and that means lots of people - that means lots of people shelling cells that — that means lots of people shelling cells that were _ that means lots of people shelling cells that were originally - that means lots of people shelling cells that were originally designed for one _ cells that were originally designed for one person _ cells that were originally designed for one person. and _ cells that were originally designed for one person. and the _ cells that were originally designed for one person. and the third - cells that were originally designed | for one person. and the third thing is about— for one person. and the third thing is about prisoners _ for one person. and the third thing is about prisoners having _ for one person. and the third thing is about prisoners having enough. for one person. and the third thingi is about prisoners having enough to do. is about prisoners having enough to do and _ is about prisoners having enough to do and what — is about prisoners having enough to do and what we _ is about prisoners having enough to do. and what we found _ is about prisoners having enough to do. and what we found him - is about prisoners having enough to. do. and what we found him expected inspected _ do. and what we found him expected inspected wandsworth, _ do. and what we found him expected inspected wandsworth, even - do. and what we found him expected inspected wandsworth, even worse l inspected wandsworth, even worse at weekends _ inspected wandsworth, even worse at weekends hie — inspected wandsworth, even worse at weekends. ~ ., ., ., weekends. we will get into that in a cou - le weekends. we will get into that in a coule of weekends. we will get into that in a couple of minutes _ weekends. we will get into that in a couple of minutes with _ weekends. we will get into that in a couple of minutes with the - weekends. we will get into that in a couple of minutes with the justice i couple of minutes with thejustice secretary. let's remind ourselves, daniel khalife has been caught, but how on earth did he escape? this drama has opened up an argument about exactly what is going on in the whole prison system. manyjails in england and wales are full to bursting, 61% up to full according to the government's and figures. star shortfalls continue to have a devastating effect. despite recent however, there are still 10% fewer officers than in 2010. we new justice secretary is the man charged with fixing all of this, alex chalk, welcome to the studio for the first time. we cannot talk about daniel khalife's alleged crimes but we can talk about wandsworth prison. whether enough staff on duty the day he escape? whether enough staff on duty the day he esca e? , , whether enough staff on duty the day he escae? , , ., ., ., ,, he escape? firstly i want to thank the metropolitan _ he escape? firstly i want to thank the metropolitan police _ he escape? firstly i want to thank the metropolitan police forces - he escape? firstly i want to thank the metropolitan police forces in l the metropolitan police forces in hand. i also want to stress that these are very rare events. when it came to light, i initiated two investigations, an investigation first into the circumstances of his escape but also the issue of categorisation. but i also asked for an independent investigation so that when we get those conclusions they will be rock solid. i am able to see that it will be rock solid. i am able to see thatitis will be rock solid. i am able to see that it is clear that the relevant security protocols are in place, in other words protocols about the headcount that must be made after goods are unloaded from a lottery, for example, about the searches that should stick close to a vehicle before it goes through the airlock and police. those protocols were in place, second to your specific question, the relevant security staff were in place. so question, the relevant security staff were in place.— question, the relevant security staff were in place. so there were enou:h staff were in place. so there were enough staff. _ staff were in place. so there were enough staff, they _ staff were in place. so there were enough staff, they did _ staff were in place. so there were enough staff, they did follow- staff were in place. so there were enough staff, they did follow all. staff were in place. so there were | enough staff, they did follow all of the rules including a vehicle searches?— the rules including a vehicle searches? , , searches? this is the point. the real question — searches? this is the point. the real question is, _ searches? this is the point. the real question is, were _ searches? this is the point. the real question is, were the - real question is, were the relevant protocols followed to the extent they should be? that is precisely we need this investigation to get to the bottom off, because this clearly was a very serious matter, very rare, much rarerthan was a very serious matter, very rare, much rarer than 20 years or so ago, but we have to get to the bottom of it, and those investigations are in place. but we know that very _ investigations are in place. but we know that very regular _ investigations are in place. but we know that very regular basis, - investigations are in place. but we| know that very regular basis, there were not enough staff and once with gill, a recent report said that actually, more than 30% of prison officers were either absent or unable to work. staffing has been a huge issue. the unable to work. staffing has been a huge issue-— huge issue. the numbers are ticking u - , huge issue. the numbers are ticking u, it is huge issue. the numbers are ticking up. it is worth _ huge issue. the numbers are ticking up, it is worth reflecting _ huge issue. the numbers are ticking up, it is worth reflecting an - up, it is worth reflecting an additional 4000 or so since 2016. hang on, it is still down since 2010, that is a real falloff, hang on, it is still down since 2010, that is a realfalloff, and in recent years it has started to take up, let's make that completely clear. ., ., ., ., clear. you are right, and i want to do with this _ clear. you are right, and i want to do with this point _ do with this point very specifically. since may 2022, the numbers have gone up by 700 in that time, but here's the really important point, the so—called attrition rate, the rate at which prison officers leave, is down by a very meaningful amount, because we have done really important thing is to address that. the prison service pay review body recommendations have been permitted. we have also invested £100 million to improve security, every prison officer having body cameras, which is important because in potentially volatile situations, you can dial down the temperature and ensure that what might have escalated de—escalates, is to view our prison officers who do an exceptional job... officers who do an exceptional 'ob. .. �* �* , officers who do an exceptional 'ob...�* v . ~ officers who do an exceptional 'ob...�* �*, ., ,, ., job... but let's talk about wandsworth _ job... but let's talk about wandsworth on _ job... but let's talk about wandsworth on that - job... but let's talk about wandsworth on that day. | job... but let's talk about - wandsworth on that day. you have said explicitly there were enough staff doing thejob said explicitly there were enough staff doing the job when he escaped. did they have adequate training? sources we have spoken to this week have questioned whether or not prison officers, especially newer ones coming in to replace departing officers, have not always had adequate training. the critical thin . adequate training. the critical thin is adequate training. the critical thing is whether _ adequate training. the critical thing is whether protocol - adequate training. the critical thing is whether protocol was| thing is whether protocol was enforced and followed, and we want to... 50 enforced and followed, and we want to, _ _ ., enforced and followed, and we want to," ., enforced and followed, and we want to... ., ~ ., ., |f enforced and followed, and we want to... so do you know that? ifi couldjust _ to... so do you know that? ifi could just make _ to... so do you know that? ifi could just make the _ to... so do you know that? ifi could just make the point. - to... so do you know that? if i i could just make the point. what i can say is that the protocol deals with things like having unloaded the goods from the van, but whether a call should be made to the control room regarding headcount. you might think that is a fairly straight forward common but second, as to whether the equipment for looking underneath the vehicle, was that it place? yes. worst off in place on the gate? yes. we have got to get to the gate? yes. we have got to get to the bottom of what precisely was done by the relevant individuals, but that has got to happen methodically and fairly to all involved. �* ., , ., ., involved. but of sounds from what ou are involved. but of sounds from what you are saying _ involved. but of sounds from what you are saying that _ involved. but of sounds from what you are saying that the _ involved. but of sounds from what you are saying that the rules i involved. but of sounds from what you are saying that the rules were | you are saying that the rules were there, so the vehicle should have been checked correctly, there were enough staff, it suggests therefore that this was human error. tt enough staff, it suggests therefore that this was human error. it would be ruite that this was human error. it would be quite wrong _ that this was human error. it would be quite wrong for _ that this was human error. it would be quite wrong for me _ that this was human error. it would be quite wrong for me to _ that this was human error. it would be quite wrong for me to prejudice | be quite wrong for me to prejudice the outcome of that, but i hope to be able to announce next week in terms of reference for that independent investigation, and it is right that it reaches full and fair conclusion. i have absolute confidence in the senior leadership to do their own very vigorous investigation which has already taken place. but in fairness that investigation, it must be allowed to take its course without me prejudging it. take its course without me prejudging it— take its course without me -~are'udin it. , ., , , ., prejudging it. there is a widespread attern of prejudging it. there is a widespread pattern of flags _ prejudging it. there is a widespread pattern of flags and _ prejudging it. there is a widespread pattern of flags and concerns i prejudging it. there is a widespread | pattern of flags and concerns having been raised about wandsworth. there have been reports that there was a similar escape in 2019. was your department recently receiving warnings and requests for help from wandsworth? let warnings and requests for help from wandsworth?— wandsworth? let me address the secific wandsworth? let me address the specific issue _ wandsworth? let me address the specific issue of _ wandsworth? let me address the specific issue of wandsworth. i wandsworth? let me address the specific issue of wandsworth. as | wandsworth? let me address the| specific issue of wandsworth. as a result of the specific incident in the context you have the first, that is why there is senior prison service staff on site, that is why a former governor has specific involvement... former governor has specific involvement. . ._ former governor has specific involvement... that is not my question- _ involvement... that is not my question. this _ involvement... that is not my question. this is _ involvement... that is not my question. this is an _ involvement... that is not myj question. this is an important question. this is an important question. i am asking you, my question. i am asking you, my question is whether or not your department received recent requests for help from the london prison service or from the for help from the london prison service orfrom the jail for help from the london prison service or from the jail itself to do with the situation there. we soke a do with the situation there. - spoke a few months ago about pentonville and belmarsh, we are very close contact with all of these dozens, of course we are. t very close contact with all of these dozens, of course we are. i wanted to answer— dozens, of course we are. i wanted to answer the _ dozens, of course we are. i wanted to answer the specific _ dozens, of course we are. i wanted to answer the specific question. i to answer the specific question. did your department receive specific warnings about the state of want was present in the run—up to this escape? present in the run-up to this esca e? ., , escape? there are independent monitoring _ escape? there are independent monitoring boards, _ escape? there are independent monitoring boards, there i escape? there are independent monitoring boards, there are i escape? there are independent i monitoring boards, there are plenty of bodies that are interfacing precisely with my department, so the points that have been made, which are fair points, but i should stress however that travelling has been an abundant dozens for many years. the difference is that this is the government is doing something about it, but notjust prospectively, we have invested £4 million, so these are exceptional prisons, we can build capacity but porter, too. the minister of — build capacity but porter, too. the minister ofjustice budget in 2019 was lower than 2010 by about a quarter, money has been taken out of the service year after year. it has been topped up in the last few years, but do you accept that one of the reasons why there are so many problems in our prisons because for many years money was being taken out and whittled away? in 2010 we inherited an appalling situation financially and everyone knows that. we were spending about £750 billion a year but only raising a tax revenue of £600 billion a year. that is why health and education were protected quite appropriately. there were challenges in the justice appropriately. there were challenges in thejustice department. as you rightly point out, recently there has been huge investment. this 4 billion investment is the biggest investment in the prison service since the victorian era. you obviously — since the victorian era. you obviously want _ since the victorian era. you obviously want to _ since the victorian era. you obviously want to emphasise this. there have been many criticisms of how it is gone in the last few years. we have charlie taylor with us, the chief inspector of prisons. charlie, i am sure you have been listening very carefully. the cabinet minister wants to emphasise money that is going in now. what does it watch what he is saying that laugh greg knight staffing in wandsworth?— laugh greg knight staffing in wandsworth? . ., , ., , wandsworth? wandsworth has struggled for many years- — wandsworth? wandsworth has struggled for many years- if— wandsworth? wandsworth has struggled for many years. if you _ wandsworth? wandsworth has struggled for many years. if you look _ wandsworth? wandsworth has struggled for many years. if you look at _ for many years. if you look at funding — for many years. if you look at funding for present and look at conditions in prison, i remember when _ conditions in prison, i remember when the — conditions in prison, i remember when the 2019 or did not have occasion— when the 2019 or did not have occasion came out from feltham and i bumped _ occasion came out from feltham and i bumped into _ occasion came out from feltham and i bumped into my predecessor, david ramsbottom, who sadly died recently. he said _ ramsbottom, who sadly died recently. he said to— ramsbottom, who sadly died recently. he said to me, before you look at the feltham report for 2019, look at my own _ the feltham report for 2019, look at my own report for feltham from 1999. and actually, you could have cut and pasted _ and actually, you could have cut and pasted between the two reports. this is an issue _ pasted between the two reports. this is an issue that has been going on for long _ is an issue that has been going on for long periods of time. i think there _ for long periods of time. i think there is— for long periods of time. i think there is a — for long periods of time. i think there is a longer term question about— there is a longer term question about who we want to lock up, how lon- about who we want to lock up, how long we _ about who we want to lock up, how long we want to lock people up for, and what _ long we want to lock people up for, and what we want to happen to people when they— and what we want to happen to people when they are locked up?— when they are locked up? clearly as a former barrister _ when they are locked up? clearly as a former barrister you _ when they are locked up? clearly as a former barrister you care - when they are locked up? clearly as a former barrister you care about i a former barrister you care about the criminaljustice system. instinctively, would you like us to lock up more or fewer people? look, one of the things _ lock up more or fewer people? look, one of the things you _ lock up more or fewer people? look, one of the things you know _ lock up more or fewer people? look, one of the things you know as - lock up more or fewer people? look, one of the things you know as a i one of the things you know as a barrister easy respect the courts. therefore you have to give effect to the order of the court. if the judge says, having considered the material, the evidence from the prosecution, the sentences required. my prosecution, the sentences required. my duty as the secretary of state to give effect to the decision of the court. we have got to make sure that we are keeping the public say. when i came into office i said i wanted to ensure that the guilty are convicted, the innocent walk free, and the public are protected. so of course at one, scene one is to protect the public. t5 course at one, scene one is to protect the public.— protect the public. is the population _ protect the public. is the population too _ protect the public. is the population too high? it l protect the public. is the i population too high? it was protect the public. is the - population too high? it was higher thanit population too high? it was higher than it was 20 years ago, ten years ago. tt than it was 20 years ago, ten years auo. , ., . ., ago. it is not much higher than ten ears auo ago. it is not much higher than ten years ago but _ ago. it is not much higher than ten years ago but it — ago. it is not much higher than ten years ago but it is _ ago. it is not much higher than ten years ago but it is higher— ago. it is not much higher than ten years ago but it is higher than i ago. it is not much higher than ten years ago but it is higher than it i years ago but it is higher than it was 20 years ago. look, the issue is, notwithstanding the proper point you make about sentencing guidelines and judges faithfully and brilliantly give effect to those, but we also have to recognise there are issues of public confidence. so when for example an appalling case like when cousins, the people of britain are rightly saying, yes,... what took place was so appalling, was such an affront to basic human decency, the way he behaved, he should spend the rest of his life behind bars. we have to respond to that, we have to give effect to the order of the court, and we have to uphold public confidence. but it is also the case that where crank or judges or magistrates say, there is a nonpaid work order here rather than sending summary to costly, we need to have seriously robust community orders which rehabilitate people, as well as punish offenders. there is a lot on your to—do list. let's talk about an important story this morning revealed by the sunday times, allegedly a parliamentary staffer arrested for spying for the chinese, targeting senior conservatives. downing street has expressed his concern. rishi sunak has expressed his concern to the chinese premier this morning at the g20. what are you actually going to do about this as a government? at the conservatives been taking the threat of china seriously enough? maybe they should actually happen. the prime minister has framed the issue of china very well. he has called it a defining challenge. you cannot wish away china. it is the second biggest economy in the world. when we try to address climate change, china is responsible for 2030% of emissions. no, no... 0n the specific point, the issue of threat, let the police do theirjob. if there are to be proceedings, we don't want to say anything that prejudices them, we proceed with caution when it comes to china. that means we stand up for human rights and the rule of law. it also means that we stripped out yy greg knight while away from our network. gchq will be playing their part to make sure that we are cyber secure. it is an epub defining challenge. you engage what you engage with caution. some of your colleagues, including sir ian duncan smith, think that you should be much tougher, that china should be much tougher, that china should be much tougher, that china should be declared as a threat. the former prime minister liz truss believes that as well. should we be taking a more aggressive line? we have to taking a more aggressive line? - have to take a calibrated line. that is the point. i think it would be wrong. the british comedies in the right position. it would be totally wrong to 70 disengage. incidentally, if you look at france and germany, they are adopting a similar approach as well. so, of course, there are plenty of things taking place in china which we are right to raise with the chinese. we will always uphold our values as a rule of law nation, as a nation that believes in human rights, fundamental human rights, and we will not be afraid to assert them. but it would be quite wrong to pretend they don't exist and not engage. given that, livelihoods in our country depend on what happened in beijing. tt is what happened in bei'ing. it is riaht to what happened in beijing. it is right to engage. lastly, a few minutes ago you talked about your belief that the public want to see people who should stay in jail and are a danger, stay injail. viewers might remember the terrible case of the murder ofjoanna simpson, killed by robert brown, her husband. this is important now because there is an impending parole decision about whether or not he should be let out after 12 years, i believe, of his sentence. i know you met herfamily recently. we can show an image of that meeting. can you tell us when that meeting. can you tell us when that decision is coming? and how sympathetic are you to their case? you know what, it was one of the first meetings i had asjustice secretary. it was so appalling to hear what happened. i find secretary. it was so appalling to hear what happened. ifind it personally very painful to hear. what i said as i will do everything i properly can, within the law, to keep the british people safe and ensure there is justice keep the british people safe and ensure there isjustice in her case. there's not much more i can properly say because there is a danger that frankly you prejudge issues. i am not want to prejudge them. i will address them as can. the family have my word, we will do everything we can to keep her safe and ensure there is justice in can to keep her safe and ensure there isjustice in her case. there is 'ustice in her case. thank ou for there isjustice in her case. thank you for being _ there isjustice in her case. thank you for being with _ there isjustice in her case. thank you for being with us _ there isjustice in her case. thank you for being with us and - there isjustice in her case. thank you for being with us and with i there isjustice in her case. thank| you for being with us and with our us this morning for the first time in your newjob. thank you very much indeed. let us know what you thought of the justice secretary's answers and the dramatic events that have happened in a short time of the job so far. email us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk, or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak, and we'll try and share some of of the converation later in the show. the headlines are on the bbc live page as it unfolds. the address is there for you now. now then, to my table trio. charlie, you are highlighting the long—term issues here. alex chalk obviously wanted to highlight what the government has been doing in the last couple of years. was he realistic about the scale of the problems? tt realistic about the scale of the problems?— problems? it is an enormous challenge- — problems? it is an enormous challenge. when _ problems? it is an enormous challenge. when you - problems? it is an enormous challenge. when you look. problems? it is an enormous challenge. when you look at| problems? it is an enormous i challenge. when you look at things like recruitment, it is notjust about the pipeline of people coming in, it is also about the quality of people coming in. the fact that many people coming in. the fact that many people are leaving the job after quite short periods of time. one of the reasons for that, and governors tell me this, is that governors themselves have no part in the selection of staff who come and work in theirjail. the selection of staff who come and work in their 'ail. ,.,, , selection of staff who come and work in their 'ail. ,.,,, .., ., in their 'ail. the boss cannot choose in theirjail. the boss cannot choose their _ in theirjail. the boss cannot choose their staff? - in theirjail. the boss cannot choose their staff? the i in theirjail. the boss cannot choose their staff? the boss in theirjail. the boss cannot - choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their — choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their star. _ choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their star. i _ choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their star. i sit _ choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their star. i sit aghast i choose their staff? the boss cannot choose their star. i sit aghast that l choose their star. i sit aghast that some of the things they can't do. they can't commission work. to buy a pot of paint, a governor had to go through a long procurement exercise through a long procurement exercise through the centre rather than simply send somebody down to halfords to buy a pot of paint to decorate some prison cells. there is a sort of bureaucracy run prisons which makes things incredibly complicated. it means the governors, some of them, some of them unbelievably impressive people who do a greatjob, but often their hands are tied by what seems to me coming from an education background, like an extraordinary level of bureaucracy.— like an extraordinary level of bureaucracy. like an extraordinary level of bureaucra . ., , ., bureaucracy. the conservatives are alwa s bureaucracy. the conservatives are always talking _ bureaucracy. the conservatives are always talking about _ bureaucracy. the conservatives are always talking about getting i bureaucracy. the conservatives are always talking about getting rid i bureaucracy. the conservatives are always talking about getting rid ofl always talking about getting rid of bureaucracy and red tape, and it sounds in this situation the prison services have struck him —— is hamstrung? services have struck him -- is hamstrung?— services have struck him -- is hamstrun-? �* ., , , hamstrung? bureaucracy is in these instances are _ hamstrung? bureaucracy is in these instances are so _ hamstrung? bureaucracy is in these instances are so complex _ hamstrung? bureaucracy is in these instances are so complex i - hamstrung? bureaucracy is in these instances are so complex i don't i instances are so complex i don't think— instances are so complex i don't think many— instances are so complex i don't think many ministers understand it is mike _ think many ministers understand it is mike understand the pinch point charlie _ is mike understand the pinch point charlie is— is mike understand the pinch point charlie is talking about. if there was a _ charlie is talking about. if there was a movement, instead ofjust talking _ was a movement, instead ofjust talking about it in cash terms, the money— talking about it in cash terms, the money is — talking about it in cash terms, the money is the money, it is not going to change — money is the money, it is not going to change it — money is the money, it is not going to change. it probably will not improve — to change. it probably will not improve for a while. what are the other— improve for a while. what are the other things that can be done. removing bureaucracy, centralisation, might be one of the things— centralisation, might be one of the things that opens this up. it may not be _ things that opens this up. it may not be the — things that opens this up. it may not be the whole answer, but it might _ not be the whole answer, but it might help to a greater extent. stephen. — might help to a greater extent. stephen, what did you make of what the minister was saying? t was the minister was saying? i was disappointed — the minister was saying? i was disappointed that _ the minister was saying? i was disappointed that he _ the minister was saying? i was disappointed that he mentioned wayne cousins _ disappointed that he mentioned wayne cousins 64% _ disappointed that he mentioned wayne cousins 64% of— disappointed that he mentioned wayne cousins. 64% of the _ disappointed that he mentioned wayne cousins. 64% of the tabloid _ disappointed that he mentioned wayne cousins. 64% of the tabloid press' i cousins. 64% of the tabloid press' crime _ cousins. 64% of the tabloid press' crime reporting _ cousins. 64% of the tabloid press' crime reporting is _ cousins. 64% of the tabloid press' crime reporting is on _ cousins. 64% of the tabloid press' crime reporting is on violent - cousins. 64% of the tabloid press'. crime reporting is on violent crime, 6% of— crime reporting is on violent crime, 6% of prisoners _ crime reporting is on violent crime, 6% of prisoners and _ crime reporting is on violent crime, 6% of prisoners and prison - crime reporting is on violent crime, 6% of prisoners and prison are i 6% of prisoners and prison are violent— 6% of prisoners and prison are violent offenders. the - 6% of prisoners and prison are violent offenders. the vast i 6% of prisoners and prison are i violent offenders. the vast majority are not— violent offenders. the vast majority are not that — violent offenders. the vast majority are not that kind _ violent offenders. the vast majority are not that kind of— violent offenders. the vast majority are not that kind of threat. - violent offenders. the vast majority are not that kind of threat. it - violent offenders. the vast majority are not that kind of threat. it is i are not that kind of threat. it is drugs, — are not that kind of threat. it is drugs, things— are not that kind of threat. it is drugs, things related _ are not that kind of threat. it is drugs, things related to- are not that kind of threat. it isj drugs, things related to mental health— drugs, things related to mental health and _ drugs, things related to mental health and to _ drugs, things related to mental health and to the _ drugs, things related to mental health and to the conditions i drugs, things related to mental health and to the conditions ofl health and to the conditions of living — health and to the conditions of living and _ health and to the conditions of living and these _ health and to the conditions of living and these are _ health and to the conditions ofi living and these are reproduced health and to the conditions of i living and these are reproduced and amplified _ living and these are reproduced and amplified by— living and these are reproduced and amplified by being _ living and these are reproduced and amplified by being in— living and these are reproduced and amplified by being in prison. - living and these are reproduced and amplified by being in prison. to i living and these are reproduced and amplified by being in prison. to bel amplified by being in prison. to be scary— amplified by being in prison. to be scary about— amplified by being in prison. to be scary about it _ amplified by being in prison. to be scary about it and _ amplified by being in prison. to be scary about it and say _ amplified by being in prison. to be scary about it and say we - amplified by being in prison. to be scary about it and say we must i amplified by being in prison. to be. scary about it and say we must keep everybody _ scary about it and say we must keep everybody safe _ scary about it and say we must keep everybody safe, of— scary about it and say we must keep everybody safe, of course _ scary about it and say we must keep everybody safe, of course we - scary about it and say we must keep everybody safe, of course we must. everybody safe, of course we must keep _ everybody safe, of course we must keep people — everybody safe, of course we must keep people safe _ everybody safe, of course we must keep people safe, but— everybody safe, of course we must keep people safe, but to _ everybody safe, of course we must keep people safe, but to use - everybody safe, of course we must keep people safe, but to use that. everybody safe, of course we must. keep people safe, but to use that as an excuse _ keep people safe, but to use that as an excuse for— keep people safe, but to use that as an excuse for simply— keep people safe, but to use that as an excuse for simply continuing i keep people safe, but to use that asl an excuse for simply continuing down the same _ an excuse for simply continuing down the same path — an excuse for simply continuing down the same path seems _ an excuse for simply continuing down the same path seems to— an excuse for simply continuing down the same path seems to me - an excuse for simply continuing down the same path seems to me to- an excuse for simply continuing down the same path seems to me to be - an excuse for simply continuing down. the same path seems to me to be very foolish _ the same path seems to me to be very foolish. l, the same path seems to me to be very foolish. ., , foolish. charlie give us some historical— foolish. charlie give us some historical perspective. - foolish. charlie give us some historical perspective. if- foolish. charlie give us some historical perspective. if you | foolish. charlie give us some i historical perspective. if you go back, we have been looking at the numbers in recent days, 20 years ago we did locked up farfewer numbers in recent days, 20 years ago we did locked up far fewer people than we do now. the minister was reluctant to reveal whether he would like to see a higher or lower prison population. like to see a higher or lower prison inundation-— population. how has it changed? if ou no population. how has it changed? if you go back _ population. how has it changed? if you go back to _ population. how has it changed? if you go back to the _ population. how has it changed? if you go back to the mid-19 - population. how has it changed? if you go back to the mid-19 90s, . population. how has it changed? if. you go back to the mid-19 90s, when you go back to the mid—19 90s, when crime was much higher than it is now, the prison population was half what it is today. pretty much half. around 42, a0 4000. what it is today. pretty much half. around 42, 40 4000. it what it is today. pretty much half. around a2, a0 a000. it is now up over 88,000. the projection as it will go up even further. what that means it's more prisoners sharing cells designed for one person. continuing to use these old battered, crumbling, vermin infested victorianjails battered, crumbling, vermin infested victorian jails which would make fantastic museums or flats but are not fit for purpose for the 21st century. but also, there aren't enough staff in place to unlock prisoners and to begin to do the things with prisoners that are rectally going to help them to not offend when they come out. prisons have got a public protection duty to keep people locked up when they are inside, but they also have a public protection duty to make sure that they put in place the things that mean that when somebody leaves prison, they are less likely to reoffend. how do you rehabilitate summary if they are bang reoffend. how do you rehabilitate summary if they are hang up in their cell? summary if they are bang up in their cell? h. summary if they are bang up in their cell? ~ summary if they are bang up in their cell? , . ., ~ ., summary if they are bang up in their cell? . ., ., cell? oscar wilde wrote, in a christian _ cell? oscar wilde wrote, in a christian or _ cell? oscar wilde wrote, in a christian or civilised - cell? oscar wilde wrote, in a christian or civilised society, | cell? oscar wilde wrote, in a - christian or civilised society, when a prisoner— christian or civilised society, when a prisoner leaves, _ christian or civilised society, when a prisoner leaves, they— christian or civilised society, when a prisoner leaves, they should - christian or civilised society, when a prisoner leaves, they should bel a prisoner leaves, they should be embraced, — a prisoner leaves, they should be embraced, welcomed, _ a prisoner leaves, they should be embraced, welcomed, they- a prisoner leaves, they should be. embraced, welcomed, they should a prisoner leaves, they should be - embraced, welcomed, they should be thanked, _ embraced, welcomed, they should be thanked, they— embraced, welcomed, they should be thanked, they should _ embraced, welcomed, they should be thanked, they should be _ thanked, they should be congratulated, - thanked, they should be congratulated, they- thanked, they should be congratulated, they are i thanked, they should be - congratulated, they are free, they have served — congratulated, they are free, they have served their time. _ congratulated, they are free, they have served their time. but - congratulated, they are free, they have served their time. but in - have served their time. but in england. _ have served their time. but in england. he _ have served their time. but in england, he said, _ have served their time. but in england, he said, when- have served their time. but in england, he said, when you . have served their time. but in - england, he said, when you leave prison, _ england, he said, when you leave prison, that — england, he said, when you leave prison, that is _ england, he said, when you leave prison, that is where _ england, he said, when you leave prison, that is where your- england, he said, when you leave i prison, that is where your sentence begins _ prison, that is where your sentence be . ins. ,, . prison, that is where your sentence beains. ,, ., , begins. selma, politicians pick up on ublic begins. selma, politicians pick up on public concern. _ begins. selma, politicians pick up on public concern. do _ begins. selma, politicians pick up on public concern. do you - begins. selma, politicians pick up on public concern. do you think. begins. selma, politicians pick up i on public concern. do you think you will see at any point in the near term a politician making the kinds of arguments that stephen has been making about rehabilitation and getting numbers down? that making about rehabilitation and getting numbers down?- getting numbers down? that is exactly the _ getting numbers down? that is exactly the point. _ getting numbers down? that is exactly the point. which - getting numbers down? that is - exactly the point. which politician, no matter— exactly the point. which politician, no matter what party they are from, will put _ no matter what party they are from, will put front and centre in the manifesto they want prison reform trust _ manifesto they want prison reform trust up _ manifesto they want prison reform trust up that will be their focus. do they— trust up that will be their focus. do they privately believe it and don't say it publicly? i do they privately believe it and don't say it publicly?— do they privately believe it and don't say it publicly? i think there are some that _ don't say it publicly? i think there are some that privately _ don't say it publicly? i think there are some that privately believe i don't say it publicly? i think there | are some that privately believe it. danny— are some that privately believe it. danny kruger mp, he has done a lot in prison— danny kruger mp, he has done a lot in prison reform. there are pockets of people _ in prison reform. there are pockets of people who do care about this issue _ of people who do care about this issue on — of people who do care about this issue on a _ of people who do care about this issue. on a macro level, are they going _ issue. on a macro level, are they going to — issue. on a macro level, are they going to stake an election on issues like prison— going to stake an election on issues like prison reform and rehabilitation? to go back to something you said, you asked the justice _ something you said, you asked the justice secretary, does he want to see a _ justice secretary, does he want to see a tower— justice secretary, does he want to see a lower prison population or higher— see a lower prison population or higher prison population? the answer is very— higher prison population? the answer is very simple. you want a lower prison— is very simple. you want a lower prison population because you want crime _ prison population because you want crime to— prison population because you want crime to be — prison population because you want crime to be reduced and for a few people _ crime to be reduced and for a few peppte to — crime to be reduced and for a few people to have custodial sentences as a result — people to have custodial sentences as a result. that is a longer train thing _ as a result. that is a longer train thing rather— as a result. that is a longer train thing rather than talking about prison— thing rather than talking about prison reform.— prison reform. that is a big challenge _ prison reform. that is a big challenge for _ prison reform. that is a big challenge for any _ prison reform. that is a big i challenge for any government prison reform. that is a big - challenge for any government before the next general election. let's talk about something else that affects everyone of us in a different way, the conflict in ukraine, which is going on. stephen, you havejust been ukraine, which is going on. stephen, you have just been to ukraine. ukraine, which is going on. stephen, you havejust been to ukraine. you have met president zelensky when you are there. tell us what you are doing? i are there. tell us what you are doinu ? . , are there. tell us what you are doin. ? ., , , , are there. tell us what you are doinu ? ., , _ , doing? i was invited by the first lad 's doing? i was invited by the first lady's office. — doing? i was invited by the first lady's office, the _ doing? i was invited by the first lady's office, the wife - doing? i was invited by the first lady's office, the wife of - doing? i was invited by the first lady's office, the wife of the i lady's office, the wife of the president. _ lady's office, the wife of the president, to— lady's office, the wife of the president, to host _ lady's office, the wife of the president, to host a - lady's office, the wife of the president, to host a summit| lady's office, the wife of the i president, to host a summit on mental— president, to host a summit on mental health— president, to host a summit on mental health there. _ president, to host a summit on mental health there. i- president, to host a summit on mental health there. i was - president, to host a summit on mental health there. i was so l mental health there. i was so impressed _ mental health there. i was so impressed that _ mental health there. i was so impressed that a _ mental health there. i was so impressed that a country - mental health there. i was so impressed that a country at l mental health there. i was so i impressed that a country at war would _ impressed that a country at war would host— impressed that a country at war would host a _ impressed that a country at war would host a summit _ impressed that a country at war would host a summit on - impressed that a country at warj would host a summit on mental health. — would host a summit on mental health. that _ would host a summit on mental health, that it— would host a summit on mental health, that it isn't— would host a summit on mental health, that it isn'tjust - health, that it isn'tjust presenting _ health, that it isn'tjust presenting an- health, that it isn'tjust presenting an image i health, that it isn'tjust presenting an image ofj health, that it isn'tjust _ presenting an image of resilience, it is also— presenting an image of resilience, it is also presenting _ presenting an image of resilience, it is also presenting an _ presenting an image of resilience, it is also presenting an image - presenting an image of resilience, it is also presenting an image of. it is also presenting an image of fragility, — it is also presenting an image of fragility, which— it is also presenting an image of fragility, which i— it is also presenting an image of fragility, which i thought - it is also presenting an image of fragility, which i thought was i fragility, which i thought was honest— fragility, which i thought was honest and _ fragility, which i thought was honest and remarkable - fragility, which i thought was honest and remarkable and i fragility, which i thought was| honest and remarkable and it fragility, which i thought was i honest and remarkable and it is clearly — honest and remarkable and it is clearly traumatic— honest and remarkable and it is clearly traumatic mental - honest and remarkable and it is clearly traumatic mental health| clearly traumatic mental health issues — clearly traumatic mental health issues strike _ clearly traumatic mental health issues strike the _ clearly traumatic mental health issues strike the nation - clearly traumatic mental health issues strike the nation very i clearly traumatic mental healthi issues strike the nation very not 'ust issues strike the nation very not just soldiers _ issues strike the nation very not just soldiers who _ issues strike the nation very not just soldiers who have _ issues strike the nation very not just soldiers who have suffered, thousahds — just soldiers who have suffered, thousands of— just soldiers who have suffered, thousands of lost _ just soldiers who have suffered, thousands of lost limbs - just soldiers who have suffered, j thousands of lost limbs already, thousands— thousands of lost limbs already, thousands and _ thousands of lost limbs already, thousands and thousands, - thousands of lost limbs already, thousands and thousands, and i thousands of lost limbs already, i thousands and thousands, and that carries— thousands and thousands, and that carries huge — thousands and thousands, and that carries huge mental— thousands and thousands, and that carries huge mental burden - thousands and thousands, and that carries huge mental burden and - carries huge mental burden and strength — carries huge mental burden and strength. children— carries huge mental burden and strength. children every- carries huge mental burden and strength. children every day- carries huge mental burden and| strength. children every day are being _ strength. children every day are being taken— strength. children every day are being taken down— strength. children every day are being taken down to _ strength. children every day are being taken down to air- strength. children every day are being taken down to air raid - being taken down to air raid shelters— being taken down to air raid shelters having _ being taken down to air raid shelters having to _ being taken down to air raid shelters having to worry - being taken down to air raid i shelters having to worry about being taken down to air raid - shelters having to worry about what is happening to— shelters having to worry about what is happening to their— shelters having to worry about what is happening to their father- shelters having to worry about what is happening to their father or- is happening to their father or mother— is happening to their father or mother at— is happening to their father or mother at the _ is happening to their father or mother at the front. - is happening to their father or mother at the front. this - is happening to their father or mother at the front. this is i mother at the front. this is something _ mother at the front. this is something i_ mother at the front. this is something i could - mother at the front. this is something i could not - mother at the front. this is something i could not turn| mother at the front. this is - something i could not turn down. plus, _ something i could not turn down. plus, curiosity _ something i could not turn down. plus, curiosity. i— something i could not turn down. plus, curiosity. i have _ something i could not turn down. plus, curiosity. i have never- something i could not turn down. | plus, curiosity. i have never been in a war— plus, curiosity. i have never been in a warzone _ plus, curiosity. i have never been ina warzone i_ plus, curiosity. i have never been in a war zone. i had _ plus, curiosity. i have never been in a warzone. i had never- plus, curiosity. i have never been in a war zone. i had never been. plus, curiosity. i have never been| in a war zone. i had never been to ukraine _ in a war zone. i had never been to ukraine. ~ . ., , in a war zone. i had never been to ukraine. . . ., , ., , , ukraine. what actually happened when ou were ukraine. what actually happened when you were there? _ ukraine. what actually happened when you were there? well, _ ukraine. what actually happened when you were there? well, there _ ukraine. what actually happened when you were there? well, there was - ukraine. what actually happened when you were there? well, there was an i you were there? well, there was an air raid of the _ you were there? well, there was an air raid of the night _ you were there? well, there was an air raid of the night before - you were there? well, there was an air raid of the night before the - air raid of the night before the summit, — air raid of the night before the summit, actually. _ air raid of the night before the summit, actually. a— air raid of the night before the summit, actually. a great- air raid of the night before the - summit, actually. a great screeching woke me _ summit, actually. a great screeching woke me from — summit, actually. a great screeching woke me from my— summit, actually. a great screeching woke me from my slumbers - summit, actually. a great screeching woke me from my slumbers at - summit, actually. a great screeching woke me from my slumbers at aboutj woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am _ woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am i_ woke me from my slumbers at about 4130am~lwas— woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am. i was told _ woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am. i was told to— woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am. i was told to go— woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am. i was told to go down- woke me from my slumbers at about 4:30am. i was told to go down to . woke me from my slumbers at aboutl 4:30am. i was told to go down to the basement _ 4:30am. i was told to go down to the basement we — az30am. i was told to go down to the basement. we knew— 4:30am. i was told to go down to the basement. we knew where _ 4:30am. i was told to go down to the basement. we knew where they - 4:30am. i was told to go down to the l basement. we knew where they were. there _ basement. we knew where they were. there were _ basement. we knew where they were. there were signs _ basement. we knew where they were. there were signs. and _ basement. we knew where they were. there were signs. and down, - basement. we knew where they were. there were signs. and down, down- basement. we knew where they were. there were signs. and down, down i. there were signs. and down, down i went _ there were signs. and down, down i went there — there were signs. and down, down i went. there were _ there were signs. and down, down i went. there were a _ there were signs. and down, down i went. there were a few— there were signs. and down, down i went. there were a few people - there were signs. and down, down i. went. there were a few people there. the staff— went. there were a few people there. the staff were — went. there were a few people there. the staff were there. _ went. there were a few people there. the staff were there. there _ went. there were a few people there. the staff were there. there was - the staff were there. there was water _ the staff were there. there was water and — the staff were there. there was water and a _ the staff were there. there was water and a coffee _ the staff were there. there was water and a coffee machine! - the staff were there. there was i water and a coffee machine! they were _ water and a coffee machine! they were quite — water and a coffee machine! they were quite smart. _ water and a coffee machine! they were quite smart. they— water and a coffee machine! they were quite smart. they knew- water and a coffee machine! they were quite smart. they knew the| were quite smart. they knew the early _ were quite smart. they knew the early warning _ were quite smart. they knew the early warning was _ were quite smart. they knew the early warning was set. _ were quite smart. they knew the early warning was set. they- were quite smart. they knew the| early warning was set. they knew were quite smart. they knew the i early warning was set. they knew if it were _ early warning was set. they knew if it were a _ early warning was set. they knew if it were a serious _ early warning was set. they knew if it were a serious threat, _ early warning was set. they knew if it were a serious threat, they- early warning was set. they knew ifj it were a serious threat, they would be a it were a serious threat, they would he a letter— it were a serious threat, they would be a letter warning. _ it were a serious threat, they would be a letter warning. a— it were a serious threat, they would be a letter warning. a d _ it were a serious threat, they would be a letter warning. a d that- be a letter warning. a d that happen _ be a letter warning. a d that happen. an _ be a letter warning. a d that happen. an explosion - be a letter warning. a d that happen. an explosion was i be a letter warning. a d that- happen. an explosion was heard. others _ happen. an explosion was heard. others came _ happen. an explosion was heard. 0thers came down. _ happen. an explosion was heard. 0thers came down. the - happen. an explosion was heard. 0thers came down. the bomb. happen. an explosion was heard. - 0thers came down. the bomb shelter was full _ 0thers came down. the bomb shelter was full it— 0thers came down. the bomb shelter was full it was — 0thers came down. the bomb shelter was full. it was alarming _ 0thers came down. the bomb shelter was full. it was alarming in _ 0thers came down. the bomb shelter was full. it was alarming in every - was full. it was alarming in every sense _ was full. it was alarming in every sense of— was full. it was alarming in every sense of the _ was full. it was alarming in every sense of the word. _ was full. it was alarming in every sense of the word. it _ was full. it was alarming in every sense of the word. it was - was full. it was alarming in every sense of the word. it was no - was full. it was alarming in every i sense of the word. it was no threat to me _ sense of the word. it was no threat to me it— sense of the word. it was no threat to me it was— sense of the word. it was no threat to me. it was apparently _ sense of the word. it was no threat to me. it was apparently some - sense of the word. it was no threat. to me. it was apparently some drones that were _ to me. it was apparently some drones that were downed _ to me. it was apparently some drones that were downed by _ to me. it was apparently some drones that were downed by the _ to me. it was apparently some drones that were downed by the defence. - that were downed by the defence. there _ that were downed by the defence. there wasn't — that were downed by the defence. there wasn't even _ that were downed by the defence. there wasn't even a _ that were downed by the defence. there wasn't even a building - that were downed by the defence. there wasn't even a building hit. i there wasn't even a building hit. but it— there wasn't even a building hit. but it was— there wasn't even a building hit. but it was a _ there wasn't even a building hit. but it was a reminder. _ there wasn't even a building hit. but it was a reminder. this - there wasn't even a building hit. . but it was a reminder. this happens four, _ but it was a reminder. this happens four, five. _ but it was a reminder. this happens four, five. six— but it was a reminder. this happens four, five, six times _ but it was a reminder. this happens four, five, six times a _ but it was a reminder. this happens four, five, six times a week. - but it was a reminder. this happens four, five, six times a week. itiitt�*haitl four, five, six times a week. what struck you — four, five, six times a week. what struck you most _ four, five, six times a week. what struck you most about _ four, five, six times a week. what struck you most about all - four, five, six times a week. what struck you most about all of - four, five, six times a week. struck you most about all of the people you met? i know you met some bereaved families.— bereaved families. well, their commitment _ bereaved families. well, their commitment to _ bereaved families. well, their commitment to the _ bereaved families. well, their commitment to the war - bereaved families. well, their commitment to the war was i bereaved families. well, their- commitment to the war was really interesting — commitment to the war was really interesting 0t— commitment to the war was really interesting. of course, _ commitment to the war was really interesting. of course, they - commitment to the war was really interesting. of course, they hate i interesting. of course, they hate that it _ interesting. of course, they hate that it is — interesting. of course, they hate that it is happening. _ interesting. of course, they hate that it is happening. i— interesting. of course, they hate that it is happening. i spoke - interesting. of course, they hate that it is happening. i spoke to i interesting. of course, they hate that it is happening. i spoke to a| that it is happening. i spoke to a woman— that it is happening. i spoke to a woman who _ that it is happening. i spoke to a woman who had _ that it is happening. i spoke to a woman who had lost _ that it is happening. i spoke to a woman who had lost her- that it is happening. i spoke to al woman who had lost her husband that it is happening. i spoke to a - woman who had lost her husband two weeks _ woman who had lost her husband two weeks earlier~ — woman who had lost her husband two weeks earlier. her— woman who had lost her husband two weeks earlier. her husband _ woman who had lost her husband two weeks earlier. her husband was- woman who had lost her husband two weeks earlier. her husband was an i weeks earlier. her husband was an artist, _ weeks earlier. her husband was an artist, musician, _ weeks earlier. her husband was an artist, musician, and— weeks earlier. her husband was an artist, musician, and she - weeks earlier. her husband was an artist, musician, and she was - weeks earlier. her husband was an| artist, musician, and she was artist too. artist, musician, and she was artist too i_ artist, musician, and she was artist too i said — artist, musician, and she was artist too i said a — artist, musician, and she was artist too i said a lot— artist, musician, and she was artist too. i said a lot of— artist, musician, and she was artist too. i said a lot of their— artist, musician, and she was artist too. i said a lot of their friends - too. i said a lot of their friends of the — too. i said a lot of their friends of the more _ too. i said a lot of their friends of the more militaristic- too. i said a lot of their friends of the more militaristic cast, i too. i said a lot of their friends of the more militaristic cast, ifj of the more militaristic cast, if you like. — of the more militaristic cast, if you like. had— of the more militaristic cast, if you like, had not— of the more militaristic cast, if you like, had not volunteeredl of the more militaristic cast, if - you like, had not volunteered early on, you like, had not volunteered early on. but _ you like, had not volunteered early on. but a _ you like, had not volunteered early on. but a lot — you like, had not volunteered early on. but a lot of— you like, had not volunteered early on, but a lot of artists _ you like, had not volunteered early on, but a lot of artists had. - you like, had not volunteered early on, but a lot of artists had. if- you like, had not volunteered early on, but a lot of artists had. if you i on, but a lot of artists had. if you know— on, but a lot of artists had. if you know anything _ on, but a lot of artists had. if you know anything about _ on, but a lot of artists had. if you know anything about the - on, but a lot of artists had. if you know anything about the history. on, but a lot of artists had. if youi know anything about the history of ukraine, _ know anything about the history of ukraine, in— know anything about the history of ukraine, in the _ know anything about the history of ukraine, in the 1930s— know anything about the history of ukraine, in the 1930s they - know anything about the history of ukraine, in the 1930s they had - know anything about the history of. ukraine, in the 1930s they had what they called — ukraine, in the 1930s they had what they called the _ ukraine, in the 1930s they had what they called the executed _ they called the executed renaissance, _ they called the executed renaissance, a _ they called the executed renaissance, a flowering j they called the executed i renaissance, a flowering of they called the executed - renaissance, a flowering of artists and thinkers — renaissance, a flowering of artists and thinkers and _ renaissance, a flowering of artists and thinkers and poets _ renaissance, a flowering of artists and thinkers and poets and - renaissance, a flowering of artists i and thinkers and poets and painters, who were _ and thinkers and poets and painters, who were all— and thinkers and poets and painters, who were all shot _ and thinkers and poets and painters, who were all shot or _ and thinkers and poets and painters, who were all shot or sent _ and thinkers and poets and painters, who were all shot or sent to - and thinkers and poets and painters, who were all shot or sent to the - who were all shot or sent to the gulag _ who were all shot or sent to the gulag tty— who were all shot or sent to the gulag by stalin's _ who were all shot or sent to the gulag by stalin's soviets. - who were all shot or sent to the gulag by stalin's soviets. this i gulag by stalin's soviets. this happened _ gulag by stalin's soviets. this happened again _ gulag by stalin's soviets. this happened again in _ gulag by stalin's soviets. this happened again in the - gulag by stalin's soviets. this happened again in the 60s. i tyrants do not. vladimir putin do that _ tyrants do not. vladimir putin do that the — tyrants do not. vladimir putin do that. the intellectuals, _ tyrants do not. vladimir putin do that. the intellectuals, who- tyrants do not. vladimir putin do that. the intellectuals, who we i tyrants do not. vladimir putin do- that. the intellectuals, who we mock at home _ that. the intellectuals, who we mock at home because _ that. the intellectuals, who we mock at home because we _ that. the intellectuals, who we mock at home because we have _ that. the intellectuals, who we mock at home because we have the - that. the intellectuals, who we mocki at home because we have the freedom to do so, _ at home because we have the freedom to do so, they— at home because we have the freedom to do so, theyare— at home because we have the freedom to do so, they are the _ at home because we have the freedom to do so, they are the first _ at home because we have the freedom to do so, they are the first target, - to do so, they are the first target, so they— to do so, they are the first target, so they will— to do so, they are the first target, so they will he _ to do so, they are the first target, so they will be first _ to do so, they are the first target, so they will be first to _ to do so, they are the first target, so they will be first to volunteer. i so they will be first to volunteer. it so they will be first to volunteer. it was _ so they will be first to volunteer. it was very — so they will be first to volunteer. it was very reviewing. _ so they will be first to volunteer. it was very reviewing. and - it was very reviewing. and my goodness, _ it was very reviewing. and my goodness, they— it was very reviewing. and my goodness, they hate - it was very reviewing. and my goodness, they hate the - it was very reviewing. and my - goodness, they hate the russians. they want — goodness, they hate the russians. they want this _ goodness, they hate the russians. they want this war— goodness, they hate the russians. they want this war to _ goodness, they hate the russians. they want this war to carry- goodness, they hate the russians. they want this war to carry on - goodness, they hate the russians. | they want this war to carry on until them _ they want this war to carry on until the... ., , , the... one of the interesting things about it, salma, _ the. .. one of the interesting things about it, salma, not— the... one of the interesting things about it, salma, notjust _ the... one of the interesting things about it, salma, notjust the - about it, salma, notjust the determination which took many other countries by surprise, the determination of ukraine to fight, but also the political consensus for supporting ukraine, that seems to be fracturing a bit on the other side of the atlantic, but here it is rock—solid, why do you think that is? rock-solid, why do you think that is? �* , ., ., rock-solid, why do you think that is? �*, ., ., ., is? there's a part of me that wants to invoke church _ is? there's a part of me that wants to invoke church in the _ is? there's a part of me that wants to invoke church in the second - is? there's a part of me that wants i to invoke church in the second world war. to invoke church in the second world wan there _ to invoke church in the second world war. there has always been a difficulty— war. there has always been a difficulty in parts of britain with russia — difficulty in parts of britain with russia as — difficulty in parts of britain with russia as a threat in europe. mainland _ russia as a threat in europe. mainland europe is generally considered russia as a partner, perhaps— considered russia as a partner, perhaps not an ally but a partner they have — perhaps not an ally but a partner they have to do business with because — they have to do business with because of energy supply, germany in particular~ _ because of energy supply, germany in particular. it is not the same thing as our— particular. it is not the same thing as our geopolitical position. that is something we have always been concerned — is something we have always been concerned about, our worry about russia as a threat on our doorstep has always— russia as a threat on our doorstep has always been... the europeans having _ has always been... the europeans having to — has always been... the europeans having to work with russia much more closel . , , ~ closely. very interesting indeed. we s - oke closely. very interesting indeed. we soke a closely. very interesting indeed. we spoke a few — closely. very interesting indeed. we spoke a few minutes _ closely. very interesting indeed. we spoke a few minutes ago _ closely. very interesting indeed. we spoke a few minutes ago about - spoke a few minutes ago about allegedly a parliamentary staffer being arrested for spying for china. the foreign minister was asked about this at the g20 summit, this is what he had to say —— the prime minister. we are passing new laws in parliament to ensure the registration of foreign individuals who are operating in particular activities in the uk are the laws that protect our higher educational institutions, so all of these things are happening. ihla institutions, so all of these things are happening-— institutions, so all of these things are happening. no doubt you will be able to follow _ are happening. no doubt you will be able to follow the _ are happening. no doubt you will be able to follow the rest _ are happening. no doubt you will be able to follow the rest of _ are happening. no doubt you will be able to follow the rest of that - able to follow the rest of that story as it unfolds across the rest of the bbc today. as we have just been talking about, the real—life consequences of the conflict in ukraine for men, women, and children are profound. but the country's incredible resistance that stephen was telling us about, to the russian invasion, has been bolstered by billions and billions of pounds and dollars from the west. over the summer, ukraine have been trying to push back putin's forces, the summer offensive, and there has been some success, but for how long can they rely on weapons and vital support from other countries? the chief of the uk's defence staff, admiral sir tony radakin, has been in washington this week with his american counterpart, general mark milley. we spoke to both of them and asked how much progress is really been made in ukraine, and who is winning right now? , ., ., i. now? first, how do you define winning? _ now? first, how do you define winning? l _ now? first, how do you define winning? i think _ now? first, how do you define winning? i think all— now? first, how do you define winning? i think all of - now? first, how do you define winning? i think all of the - winning? i think all of the political leaders of nato and europe, in the united states certainly, have said repeatedly over time for the last year is, what does winning look like? at the end of the day, ukraine must remain a free use of an independent country with its territory intact. russia, and the leadership of vladimir putin, that military invasion of a country that presented no military threat to russia, it was an illegal war of aggression by a very large country against a relatively small country, against a relatively small country, against their neighbour. if vladimir putin's invasion is allowed to stand, then those rules, those principles, art for nothing. all of world war ii will have been at for nothing. ukraine has not asked for anybody to fight for them. they're asking for is help. they for material help with trimming and ammunition, that is exactly what international community is giving them in order to keep them free and allow them to defend themselves. it allow them to defend themselves. if i could add, ukraine is winning and russia _ i could add, ukraine is winning and russia is— i could add, ukraine is winning and russia is losing, neutering winning because the aim of russia... that has not _ because the aim of russia... that has not and — because the aim of russia... that has not and never will happened, and that is— has not and never will happened, and that is why— has not and never will happened, and that is why ukraine is winning, ukraine — that is why ukraine is winning, ukraine is— that is why ukraine is winning, ukraine is making progress in its battle _ ukraine is making progress in its battle to — ukraine is making progress in its battle to regain its territory. it has recovered 50% of the ground that russia _ has recovered 50% of the ground that russia seized, and you're seeing the international community also applying economic pressure and diplomatic pressure, and russia are suffering _ diplomatic pressure, and russia are suffering because of that. do diplomatic pressure, and russia are suffering because of that.— suffering because of that. do you atree, suffering because of that. do you agree, general— suffering because of that. do you agree, general mark _ suffering because of that. do you agree, general mark milley, - agree, general mark milley, there have been fears that ukraine's summer offensive has not gone as well as hoped —— russia's summer aggression —— summer offensive? these are people in your vehicle is fighting on real minefields and there is real death and destruction, built friction. and that's still a reasonable amount of time, 30 to a5 days, fighting mother left so the ukrainians are not done, the battle is not done. they have not finished the fighting part of what they are trying to accomplish, so we will see. it is too early to say how this is going to end. they have at least achieved partial success of what we set out to do, and that is important. the rain will come in and then you will get the deep winter, and then we will see how things go, but right now, it is way too early to say that this offensive has failed or not failed. i to say that this offensive has failed or not failed. i would point ou in failed or not failed. i would point you in the direction _ failed or not failed. i would point you in the direction of— failed or not failed. i would point you in the direction of the - failed or not failed. i would point - you in the direction of the comments of our— you in the direction of the comments of our leaders. in terms of sticking with ukraine, both in the here and how. _ with ukraine, both in the here and now. and — with ukraine, both in the here and now, and also for the long roll. that _ now, and also for the long roll. that international partnership, you compare _ that international partnership, you compare it — that international partnership, you compare it to what russia has, and russia _ compare it to what russia has, and russia is— compare it to what russia has, and russia is acting principally on its own, _ russia is acting principally on its own. and — russia is acting principally on its own, and where it looks to help, it looks _ own, and where it looks to help, it looks to _ own, and where it looks to help, it looks to dubious partners like iran and north— looks to dubious partners like iran and north korea. which side with a sensible _ and north korea. which side with a sensible mission want to be on, and the heft— sensible mission want to be on, and the heft for— sensible mission want to be on, and the heft for that international community can provide. the departing defence secretary _ community can provide. the departing defence secretary ben _ community can provide. the departing defence secretary ben wallace - defence secretary ben wallace suggested ukraine cannot rely on the west like an amazon service for weaponry. to west like an amazon service for weaponry-— weaponry. to say it is like an amazon sort _ weaponry. to say it is like an amazon sort of thing, - weaponry. to say it is like an amazon sort of thing, that is j weaponry. to say it is like an - amazon sort of thing, that is not an analogy i would personally use. what if that's what — analogy i would personally use. what if that's what comes _ analogy i would personally use. what if that's what comes to _ analogy i would personally use. what if that's what comes to an end? if - if that's what comes to an end? if we don't do that, i think ukraine will be at a very great military disadvantage, but i will also say, regardless of support, view trimming people will not stop fighting. the best i can tell they have demonstrated incredible courage and resilience in the face of overwhelming odds and it is very unlikely that the ukrainian people will stop fighting until they achieve their objective. achieve their ob'ective. what is coin: achieve their ob'ective. what is auoin on achieve their ob'ective. what is going on in — achieve their objective. what is going on in moscow? _ achieve their objective. what is going on in moscow? britain i achieve their objective. what is - going on in moscow? britain seems to be causing up to north korea. i be causing up to north korea. i think it is much more in the terms territory— think it is much more in the terms territory of — think it is much more in the terms territory of desperation. -- think it is much more in the terms territory of desperation.— territory of desperation. -- putin is to be causing _ territory of desperation. -- putin is to be causing up _ territory of desperation. -- putin is to be causing up to _ territory of desperation. -- putin is to be causing up to north - territory of desperation. -- putin i is to be causing up to north korea. it is a reflection of how few partners _ it is a reflection of how few partners russia has around the world and where _ partners russia has around the world and where it— partners russia has around the world and where it needs to seek help, and it is also— and where it needs to seek help, and it is also a _ and where it needs to seek help, and it is also a reflection of the domestic situation in russia. it does _ domestic situation in russia. it does not — domestic situation in russia. it does not have a raft of international partners, it has lost half a _ international partners, it has lost half a million people that have fled the country. there is at one so this is an act— the country. there is at one so this is an act of desperation, and that is an act of desperation, and that is why— is an act of desperation, and that is why we — is an act of desperation, and that is why we need to focus on the resolve — is why we need to focus on the resolve of— is why we need to focus on the resolve of the will to fight of ukraine, _ resolve of the will to fight of ukraine, and that is why we continue to support _ ukraine, and that is why we continue to support ukraine, and we need to reflect— to support ukraine, and we need to reflect on— to support ukraine, and we need to reflect on russia's desperation and see it _ reflect on russia's desperation and see it for— reflect on russia's desperation and see it for what it is. now reflect on russia's desperation and see it for what it is.— see it for what it is. now the us presidential _ see it for what it is. now the us presidential race _ see it for what it is. now the us presidential race is _ see it for what it is. now the us presidential race is hotting up. | presidential race is hotting up. general mark milley, would you want to serve a commander—in—chief in jail? to serve a commander-in-chief in 'ail? . y to serve a commander-in-chief in 'ail? ., , ., jail? the loyalty of the united states military _ jail? the loyalty of the united states military is _ jail? the loyalty of the united states military is to _ jail? the loyalty of the united states military is to the - states military is to the constitution. it is unique in that regard, we are not loyal to a king, queen, country, a president, imogen orany queen, country, a president, imogen or any of that, we take our oath to the constitution of the united states of america. we will be free always to the constitution, regardless of who occupies the white house, it is as simple as that. all of us in uniform are faithful to the united states constitution, that is what we took our oath to come up thatis what we took our oath to come up that is what they are willing to die to protect. but that is what they are willing to die to rotect. �* ., , ., that is what they are willing to die to rotect. �* ., y., . to protect. but are you concerned about extremes _ to protect. but are you concerned about extremes in _ to protect. but are you concerned about extremes in america, - about extremes in america, especially from what we saw on the 6th of january capitol attack? irate 6th of january capitol attack? we obe the 6th ofjanuary capitol attack? , obey the orders of the president of the united states, it does not get complicated, that is what the united states military does, that is what we have always done and that is what we have always done and that is what we will always do. fsine we have always done and that is what we will always do.— we will always do. one of the hi . hest we will always do. one of the highest honours _ we will always do. one of the highest honours american i we will always do. one of the - highest honours american bristow, the legion of merit, what does that mean to you? how special is it? than mean to you? how special is it? an enormous privilege, and very humbling. iwas enormous privilege, and very humbling. i was delighted to receive that award. — humbling. i was delighted to receive that award, and it is a reflection of a personal relationship, but it is really— of a personal relationship, but it is really about a professional connection between our two countries and what _ connection between our two countries and what that signifies, both of our, _ and what that signifies, both of our, something very special. one of the house of lords _ our, something very special. one of the house of lords and the - the house of lords and the military system of the united states, it is the highest award that we give, and it never signifies, as tonyjust said, the relationship between the united states and the uk. from the beginning, we have been shoulder to shoulder in so many conflicts, we share common values and the relationship between the american and british military is as strong as it has ever been. and in a few minutes, right after this interview, admiral sir tony radakin will lay a wreath at the tomb of the unknown soldier, and i think it is a great honourfor us to have soldier, and i think it is a great honour for us to have tony do that. bugle plays. lastly, general, you are about to stand down after an extraordinary career. what is next? might politics beckham? you would not be the first. absolutely not. i have no desire to enter into politics, i am a grandfather, my wife and i are going to look after the kids on the grandkids, and we will do all that, and i will do whatever is necessary in the future, as long as i can draw breath, to defend the united states of america and its constitution. where that direction takes me, i don't know, but one direction or not to commit as interactive elected politics. to commit as interactive elected olitics. �* , . , , politics. and i will restrict myself to sa in: politics. and i will restrict myself to saying i _ politics. and i will restrict myself to saying i was — politics. and i will restrict myself to saying i was happy _ politics. and i will restrict myself| to saying i was happy retirement, and i_ to saying i was happy retirement, and l value — to saying i was happy retirement, and i value our friendship, relationship, both at a personal level— relationship, both at a personal level but— relationship, both at a personal level but also add a professional level. _ level but also add a professional level. and — level but also add a professional level, and i am not too sure that i would _ level, and i am not too sure that i would wish — level, and i am not too sure that i would wish to curse him with a life in politics — would wish to curse him with a life in politics. happy retirement and i hope _ in politics. happy retirement and i hope our— in politics. happy retirement and i hope our relationship will endure for years— hope our relationship will endure for years to come. i hope our relationship will endure for years to come.— hope our relationship will endure for years to come. i am going to run for years to come. i am going to run for best grandad, _ for years to come. i am going to run for best grandad, that _ for years to come. i am going to run for best grandad, that is _ for years to come. i am going to run for best grandad, that is it. - for best grandad, that is it. the two heads _ for best grandad, that is it. the two heads of — for best grandad, that is it. the two heads of the _ for best grandad, that is it. the two heads of the military on both sides of the atlantic speaking to us to there. a few months ago, jonathan reynolds said that voters were yet to comprehend the scale of labour's ambition for the economy. what does he reckon now? you see in the studio. let's start with the big story of the week, the escape of daniel khalife. thejustice secretary told us a few months ago that all of their protocols were in place, there were enough staff, are you satisfied with the government of my explanation so far? irate you satisfied with the government of my explanation so far?— my explanation so far? we will need an independent _ my explanation so far? we will need an independent investigation - my explanation so far? we will need an independent investigation to - an independent investigation to find out exactly what the details of this are. to be frank, i think most people will have seen the story this week, and on the back of the story about schools falling down at the start of the week, again they will feel there simply nothing working as should under this government after 13 years. and i would say because of the problems of this government, would have happened this week, there would be plenty to talk about and it would be plenty to talk about and it would probably have involved public services not living up to people's expectations. the danger here is not just that people have made their mind up on the government, they are losing hope that the british government can be better than this. we recognise the response but that comes with that on our side, but i sometimes come in terms of the advice we receive, i would also say you provide people with... that needs some solid foundations particularly when it comes to... . labour has been very critical of the government's handling of it, but would you commit to increasing funding? sweat the government put a significant — sweat the government put a significant amount- sweat the government put a significant amount of- sweat the government put a j significant amount of money sweat the government put a - significant amount of money into capital— significant amount of money into capital spending _ significant amount of money into capital spending because - significant amount of money into capital spending because prisonsj significant amount of money into - capital spending because prisons are so stretched — capital spending because prisons are so stretched. theatr— capital spending because prisons are so stretched-— so stretched. they haven't actually sent it. so stretched. they haven't actually spent it- the _ so stretched. they haven't actually spent it. the first _ so stretched. they haven't actually spent it. the first thing _ so stretched. they haven't actually spent it. the first thing to - so stretched. they haven't actually spent it. the first thing to say - spent it. the first thing to say would be spend the money and get on with your plans. but would be spend the money and get on with your plans-— with your plans. but again, it is a key area. — with your plans. but again, it is a key area. it _ with your plans. but again, it is a key area. it is — with your plans. but again, it is a key area, it is not _ with your plans. but again, it is a key area, it is not delivering - with your plans. but again, it is a key area, it is not delivering as l key area, it is not delivering as you would expect. [30 key area, it is not delivering as you would expect.— key area, it is not delivering as you would expect. do you think it needs more _ you would expect. do you think it needs more cash? _ you would expect. do you think it needs more cash? whatever - you would expect. do you think it needs more cash? whatever area you would expect. do you think it. needs more cash? whatever area we are talkin: needs more cash? whatever area we are talking about, _ needs more cash? whatever area we are talking about, whether _ needs more cash? whatever area we are talking about, whether to - are talking about, whether to schools, terminaljustice, the nhs, if we want and need to return to the kind of public investment we saw under the last labour comment, the economy has to do better. i forgot the kind of growth weights rates, all of that you can spend on public services. what i want is good jobs in every part of the country. it clearly has an impact on what you can spend on public services. that is why my area is so important. you have said the _ is why my area is so important. you have said the government has not done enough to increase and support the number of manufacturing jobs, but the reality is we are overwhelmingly a service —based economy. manufacturing is about one tenth of the economy. it has been for some time. how big would you want it to be?— want it to be? first of all, we should never _ want it to be? first of all, we should never accept - want it to be? first of all, we should never accept some i want it to be? first of all, we | should never accept some sort want it to be? first of all, we - should never accept some sort of false choice between manufacturing —— backing manufacturing duck we are much more a services economy than in the past but where manufacturing exists, it is high—value, high wage, it is not a sunset industry. a crucial task is making sure it can make the transition to net—zero or. if we look at the scale of ambition from the americans with president biden and his industrial policy, we cannot ignore the impact that has had on how relatively attractive we are to investment. we have the lowest business investment already in the g7. people always want to talk about how much money would go to this public service or that... i to this public service or that... i am not asking you that. i am asking you how big you want manufacturing to be? you criticise the government for it not being big enough. there are 'obs for it not being big enough. there are jobs available, _ for it not being big enough. there are jobs available, whether - for it not being big enough. ii—iiff are jobs available, whether we're looking at the supply chain for automotive, electric batteries, the future of aerospace, the future of things that will be integral to these new modern economy we moving towards, we are not building on them. i wouldn't put a percentage on it. i would worry about losing jobs as we have done. the americans are gaining jobs and we are losing jobs. that should not be the case if we had the same level of ambition. fine had the same level of ambition. one ofthe had the same level of ambition. one of the prominent _ had the same level of ambition. one of the prominent people meant to be on your side, sharon graham, the boss of the unite union, says your plans don't add up to that much. see size changes to planning laws and partner in giving free money to corporations without commitment won't move the dial. the truth is without a real economy reboot, talk of high growth is for the birds. so the leader of one of the biggest unions in the country who is meant to be on your sight is not convinced. why should anybody watching be commenced? i convinced. why should anybody watching be commenced? i would re'ect that watching be commenced? i would reject that analysis _ watching be commenced? i would reject that analysis entirely. - watching be commenced? i would reject that analysis entirely. if - reject that analysis entirely. if you look at sectors like aerospace, automotive, the steel industry, or plans are to put significant public investment in to partner with the private investment required. that is the big transition. without that we will lose these sectors. latte the big transition. without that we will lose these sectors.— will lose these sectors. we can remind our _ will lose these sectors. we can remind our viewers, _ will lose these sectors. we can remind our viewers, and - will lose these sectors. we can| remind our viewers, and shown will lose these sectors. we can - remind our viewers, and shown some will remember this, that big commitment of borrowing 28 billion to create or to support creating those new industries, you are doing that more slowly than you had originally hoped? he. that more slowly than you had originally hoped?— that more slowly than you had originally hoped? no, we've 'ust clarified that fl originally hoped? no, we've 'ust clarified that of i originally hoped? no, we've 'ust clarified that of course i originally hoped? no, we've 'ust clarified that of course our h originally hoped? no, we'vejust clarified that of course our fiscal| clarified that of course our fiscal rules are the over arching framework in place to do that. this is not about taking whatever the government is doing and adding an arbitrary figure on top. it is an assessment of what is required to get the maximum economic benefits for this country in terms of good jobs from this transition to net—zero. that requires investment, changes to planning, changes to the apprenticeship levy, mixing brexit work better, devolving power to parts of the country were policy can work better. these are not small commitments. i oppose any sense that meaningful change that add up to a substantial, more comprehensive industrial policy for this country, is small beer. it is not. these other things will attract and change those big investment barriers. you said earlier — those big investment barriers. you said earlier in _ those big investment barriers. you said earlier in the year you weren't sure if people got that, if they understood how ambitious you are. do you think they understand? i understood how ambitious you are. do you think they understand?— you think they understand? i simply have the humility _ you think they understand? i simply have the humility to _ you think they understand? i simply have the humility to say _ you think they understand? i simply have the humility to say that - you think they understand? i simply| have the humility to say that nobody on the labour side thinks theirjob is done. we know people have made their cases up —— by their minds up on the garment. there is a responsibility on us to keep that message of how changeable make a real tangible difference, not because we have aspiration, are announcing things, but real change that will make a difference to their lives. i would simply again look to the scale. look at the growth of the gig economy. in some ways it is to be welcomed but it has come at the expense of working conditions. we are going to change that. look at what we need to do with the big sectors of the economy to make that transition. look at things like making brexit work better. these are not small things. they can be delivered by an abuse is common. that]! delivered by an abuse is common. all things we will talk about in the coming months. i must ask you about this story about allegedly a parliamentary staffer spying for china. there was a similar issue not so long ago with the labour mp barry gardiner that affected your party. are you confident now that there won't be similar allegations involving people spying for the labour party? i involving people spying for the labour party?— involving people spying for the labour party? involving people spying for the labourpa ? . . , _ , labour party? i am appalled by these alleaations labour party? i am appalled by these allegations with _ labour party? i am appalled by these allegations with the _ labour party? i am appalled by these allegations with the usual _ labour party? i am appalled by these allegations with the usual caveats. i allegations with the usual caveats. you have an investigation in place. democracy, freedom, the rule of law are integral to the uk, that any country may seek to interfere and that in some way would be absolutely shocking. i imagine on the conservative side this news this morning is something they didn't know about. it is a shock to them. we will have to work with the security services. i am trying to see more broadly. there is clearly an economic relationship which is already in place. you can't decouple from china but you can't treat china like an american or european company. it is a mix of cooperation where that is impossible but we have to confront these issues where they exist. , ., , ., to confront these issues where they exist. , , ., , exist. does labour believe china is a threat to — exist. does labour believe china is a threat to the _ exist. does labour believe china is a threat to the uk? _ exist. does labour believe china is a threat to the uk? when - exist. does labour believe china is a threat to the uk? when you - exist. does labour believe china is| a threat to the uk? when you have exist. does labour believe china is l a threat to the uk? when you have a sto like a threat to the uk? when you have a story like this _ a threat to the uk? when you have a story like this it _ a threat to the uk? when you have a story like this it would _ a threat to the uk? when you have a story like this it would be _ a threat to the uk? when you have a story like this it would be naive - a threat to the uk? when you have a story like this it would be naive to i story like this it would be naive to say anything other than that. there are areas where i think the economic relationship can be a positive one. over the long term it may be a positive thing but you cannot treat it in the same way, especially when you have these shocking allegations. thank you for being with us. it is nearly ten o'clock and we started this morning talking to thejustice secretary alex chalk. after another messy week for the government, with a terror suspect escaping from jail. i asked him if he knew yet what had gone wrong at wandsworth. it is him if he knew yet what had gone wrong at wandsworth. it is clearly relevant protocols _ wrong at wandsworth. it is clearly relevant protocols were _ wrong at wandsworth. it is clearly relevant protocols were in - wrong at wandsworth. it is clearly relevant protocols were in place. | relevant protocols were in place. the relevant security staff were in place. the relevant security staff were in lace. ., , ., , ., place. there were enough staff and they followed all _ place. there were enough staff and they followed all of _ place. there were enough staff and they followed all of the _ place. there were enough staff and they followed all of the rules? - place. there were enough staff and they followed all of the rules? this| they followed all of the rules? this is the point- _ they followed all of the rules? this is the point. the _ they followed all of the rules? try 3 is the point. the real question is where the relevant protocols followed to the extent they should be? the; followed to the extent they should be? �* , , ., followed to the extent they should be? . , , ., ., , be? as ever you have been getting in touch. brian kirk got in touch to say, "if they have to spend 23 hours in a cell, it will give them time to think about their impact on their victims.". but claire reilly wonders, "how many people are in prison purely because they have been failed by mental health services?" thanks to everyone who emailed in. we do read them all and we use them as questions on the programme sometimes. thank you very much indeed for getting in touch. now then of course labour is always keen to talk about how tricky things have been for the conservatives in the last few years. whatever your political views, the reality is it has been incredibly bumpy, chaotic time. here at the bbc we set out to work out why in a new documentary series someone sitting close here — well, me — has been working on for the last few months. this place is meant to be in charge. but five prime ministers in six years, it hasn't felt that way. latte years, it hasn't felt that way. we became years, it hasn't felt that way. , became a laughing stock. years, it hasn't felt that way. we became a laughing stock. i - years, it hasn't felt that way. we became a laughing stock. i don't| became a laughing stock. i don't know a single — became a laughing stock. i don't know a single mp _ became a laughing stock. i don't know a single mp who _ became a laughing stock. i don't know a single mp who didn't - became a laughing stock. i don't know a single mp who didn't get| became a laughing stock. i don't i know a single mp who didn't get it that threat. | know a single mp who didn't get it that threat. . know a single mp who didn't get it that threat-— that threat. i have been a systematic— that threat. i have been a systematic plotter - that threat. i have been a systematic plotter trying | that threat. i have been a i systematic plotter trying to that threat. i have been a - systematic plotter trying to remove the prime _ systematic plotter trying to remove the prime minister. _ systematic plotter trying to remove the prime minister. [— systematic plotter trying to remove the prime minister.— the prime minister. i said i will be satisfied until _ the prime minister. i said i will be satisfied until it _ the prime minister. i said i will be satisfied until it burns _ the prime minister. i said i will be satisfied until it burns the - the prime minister. i said i will be satisfied until it burns the house i satisfied until it burns the house down. i satisfied until it burns the house down. . , satisfied until it burns the house down. .,, . ~ ., down. i was sacked on twitter. i said, i down. i was sacked on twitter. i said. i think _ down. i was sacked on twitter. i said, i think you _ down. i was sacked on twitter. i said, i think you have _ down. i was sacked on twitter. i said, i think you have got - down. i was sacked on twitter. i said, i think you have got three | said, i think you have got three weeks — said, i think you have got three weeks now. said, i think you have got three weeks now— weeks now. how close did our olitical weeks now. how close did our political system _ weeks now. how close did our political system come - weeks now. how close did our political system come to - weeks now. how close did ourl political system come to falling apart? political system come to falling a art? , ., .,, , apart? everyone lost their minds. will it ever be _ apart? everyone lost their minds. will it ever be the _ apart? everyone lost their minds. will it ever be the same - apart? everyone lost their minds. will it ever be the same again? it| will it ever be the same again? it is the end of normal. state - will it ever be the same again? it is the end of normal. state of - is the end of normal. state of chaos, is the end of normal. state of chaos. that — is the end of normal. state of chaos, that is _ is the end of normal. state of chaos, that is not _ is the end of normal. state of chaos, that is not just - is the end of normal. state of i chaos, that is notjust describing my life! it you were in government for a lot of that period, 2016, the morning after the referendum, until the departure of liz truss. why do you think things went so mad, or were sort of so traumatic? filth. you think things went so mad, or were sort of so traumatic? oh, god! there are a — were sort of so traumatic? oh, god! there are a number _ were sort of so traumatic? oh, god! there are a number of _ were sort of so traumatic? oh, god! there are a number of reasons. - were sort of so traumatic? oh, god! there are a number of reasons. i i there are a number of reasons. i will watch this programme and is slightly triggered by it. i think there is a bit of a fundamental failure in terms of the types of people we are recruiting and having politics. i think there needs to be a big change in mindset of the kind of people who are coming in and what public service actually means. i hear all the time that people say politicians should be paid more and thatis politicians should be paid more and that is why it will make it better. that is not what public service is. we have also gotten into this playbook that politicians think they have to answer things in a certain way, they have to do things in a certain way, and there is a playbook by which they can function. and it isjust by which they can function. and it is just not by which they can function. and it isjust not true. by which they can function. and it is just not true. you have to meet the challenges of the time. i think thatis the challenges of the time. i think that is why there was a lot of chaos, because people didn't know where to go. chaos, because people didn't know where to go— chaos, because people didn't know where to go. people trying to follow the same rules _ where to go. people trying to follow the same rules in _ where to go. people trying to follow the same rules in a _ where to go. people trying to follow the same rules in a fast _ where to go. people trying to follow the same rules in a fast changing i the same rules in a fast changing world. stephen, next ordinary period, covid, brexit... latte world. stephen, next ordinary period, covid, brexit. .. period, covid, brexit... we must mention exit. _ period, covid, brexit... we must mention exit. the _ period, covid, brexit... we must mention exit. the labour - period, covid, brexit... we must mention exit. the labour party i period, covid, brexit... we must| mention exit. the labour party is afraid _ mention exit. the labour party is afraid to — mention exit. the labour party is afraid to mention it. it was a catastrophe. afraid to mention it. it was a catastrophe-— afraid to mention it. it was a catastrophe. afraid to mention it. it was a catastrohe. , ~ ., , afraid to mention it. it was a catastrohe. , ~' ., , ., catastrophe. everybody knows it. not everybody would _ catastrophe. everybody knows it. not everybody would agree _ catastrophe. everybody knows it. not everybody would agree with - catastrophe. everybody knows it. not everybody would agree with you. - catastrophe. everybody knows it. not everybody would agree with you. of i everybody would agree with you. of course they do. certainly the rest of the _ course they do. certainly the rest of the world does. apart from that it is funny— of the world does. apart from that it is funny because it is a clown car crash — it is funny because it is a clown car crash and you can't help but be amused _ car crash and you can't help but be amused by— car crash and you can't help but be amused by it. so much was taken out of what _ amused by it. so much was taken out of what should be the role of politics _ of what should be the role of politics. extraordinary that you can have _ politics. extraordinary that you can have a _ politics. extraordinary that you can have a conversation between the economics — have a conversation between the economics minister of labour didn't even _ economics minister of labour didn't even mention the climate catastrophe coming _ even mention the climate catastrophe coming. there is a tsunami coming towards _ coming. there is a tsunami coming towards us — coming. there is a tsunami coming towards us which is partly the technology and ai in what is going to happen — technology and ai in what is going to happen to work for everybody in this country, almost everybody, and there _ this country, almost everybody, and there is— this country, almost everybody, and there is the — this country, almost everybody, and there is the climate crisis, yet everybody is talking about just doing — everybody is talking about just doing the same thing only better. it is catastrophic. that doing the same thing only better. it is catastrophic.— is catastrophic. that is what selma said about the _ is catastrophic. that is what selma said about the same _ is catastrophic. that is what selma said about the same people - is catastrophic. that is what selma | said about the same people coming is catastrophic. that is what selma i said about the same people coming in trying to do things in the same way. charlie, from a practical point of view, you are close to public service running. we have seen a huge churn from all of these ministers... i was trying to count thejustice i was trying to count the justice secretary— i was trying to count the justice secretary since _ i was trying to count the justice secretary since 2010. _ i was trying to count the justice secretary since 2010. i - i was trying to count the justice secretary since 2010. i think. i was trying to count the justice secretary since 2010. i think i. i was trying to count the justice i secretary since 2010. i think i got to nine _ secretary since 2010. i think i got to nine there— secretary since 2010. i think i got to nine. there is— secretary since 2010. i think i got to nine. there is one _ secretary since 2010. i think i got to nine. there is one i— secretary since 2010. i think i got to nine. there is one i can't - to nine. there is one i can't remember~ _ to nine. there is one i can't remember~ i_ to nine. there is one i can't remember. iwill— to nine. there is one i can't remember. i will say- to nine. there is one i can't remember. i will say sorryi to nine. there is one i can't. remember. i will say sorry to whoever _ remember. i will say sorry to whoever that _ remember. i will say sorry to whoever that was. _ remember. i will say sorry to whoever that was. then - remember. i will say sorry to whoever that was. then i- remember. i will say sorry to - whoever that was. then i started trying _ whoever that was. then i started trying to — whoever that was. then i started trying to do— whoever that was. then i started trying to do prisons _ whoever that was. then i started trying to do prisons ministers - whoever that was. then i startedi trying to do prisons ministers and whoever that was. then i started i trying to do prisons ministers and i -ot trying to do prisons ministers and i got absolutely _ trying to do prisons ministers and i got absolutely nowhere _ trying to do prisons ministers and i got absolutely nowhere with - trying to do prisons ministers and i got absolutely nowhere with that. i got absolutely nowhere with that. and does — got absolutely nowhere with that. and does it — got absolutely nowhere with that. and does it matter? _ got absolutely nowhere with that. and does it matter? of— got absolutely nowhere with that. and does it matter?— and does it matter? of course it matters. and does it matter? of course it matters- you — and does it matter? of course it matters. you get _ and does it matter? of course it matters. you get your _ and does it matter? of course it matters. you get your aquatic i and does it matter? of course it i matters. you get your aquatic drift. you get _ matters. you get your aquatic drift. you get systems _ matters. you get your aquatic drift. you get systems that _ matters. you get your aquatic drift. you get systems that don't - matters. you get your aquatic drift. you get systems that don't have . you get systems that don't have leadership— you get systems that don't have leadership in— you get systems that don't have leadership in place. _ you get systems that don't have leadership in place. and - you get systems that don't have i leadership in place. and therefore, people _ leadership in place. and therefore, people are — leadership in place. and therefore, people are making _ leadership in place. and therefore, people are making decisions- leadership in place. and therefore, people are making decisions that l leadership in place. and therefore, i people are making decisions that are not necessarily— people are making decisions that are not necessarily in _ people are making decisions that are not necessarily in the _ people are making decisions that are not necessarily in the best _ not necessarily in the best interests _ not necessarily in the best interests of _ not necessarily in the best interests of the _ not necessarily in the best interests of the public. - not necessarily in the best i interests of the public. they not necessarily in the best - interests of the public. they tend to make — interests of the public. they tend to make decisions, _ interests of the public. they tend to make decisions, or— interests of the public. they tend to make decisions, or the - interests of the public. they tend to make decisions, or the dangerj interests of the public. they tend i to make decisions, or the danger is they make — to make decisions, or the danger is they make decisions _ to make decisions, or the danger is they make decisions in _ to make decisions, or the danger is they make decisions in the - to make decisions, or the danger is they make decisions in the interest| they make decisions in the interest of the _ they make decisions in the interest of the business. _ they make decisions in the interest of the business. and _ they make decisions in the interest of the business. and political- they make decisions in the interestj of the business. and political churn has been _ of the business. and political churn has been a — of the business. and political churn has been a frustration _ of the business. and political churn has been a frustration for - of the business. and political churn has been a frustration for anybodyl has been a frustration for anybody working _ has been a frustration for anybody working in— has been a frustration for anybody working in public— has been a frustration for anybody working in public service - has been a frustration for anybody working in public service in - has been a frustration for anybody working in public service in the - working in public service in the last few— working in public service in the last few years. _ working in public service in the last few years. do _ working in public service in the last few years.— working in public service in the last few years. do you think things have come — last few years. do you think things have come back _ last few years. do you think things have come back to _ last few years. do you think things have come back to some - last few years. do you think things have come back to some kind - last few years. do you think things have come back to some kind of. have come back to some kind of normal? that was rishi sunak�*s big promise to the country, that he would end chaos and move on and things would be ok. if would end chaos and move on and things would be ok.— would end chaos and move on and things would be ok. if alex chalk is still here in — things would be ok. if alex chalk is still here in the _ things would be ok. if alex chalk is still here in the year, _ things would be ok. if alex chalk is still here in the year, and _ things would be ok. if alex chalk is still here in the year, and david - still here in the year, and david heinz— still here in the year, and david heinz is— still here in the year, and david heinz is still— still here in the year, and david heinz is still prisons _ still here in the year, and david heinz is still prisons minister, i heinz is still prisons minister, maybe — heinz is still prisons minister, maybe we _ heinz is still prisons minister, maybe we can _ heinz is still prisons minister, maybe we can say _ heinz is still prisons minister, maybe we can say that. - heinz is still prisons minister, maybe we can say that.- heinz is still prisons minister, maybe we can say that. look at how man mps maybe we can say that. look at how many mps are _ maybe we can say that. look at how many mps are resigning _ maybe we can say that. look at how many mps are resigning and - maybe we can say that. look at how many mps are resigning and not - many mps are resigning and not standing — many mps are resigning and not standing at the next election. we should _ standing at the next election. we should stop using the word honourable of mps until they have entered, _ honourable of mps until they have entered, so it would not be an automatic— entered, so it would not be an automatic honorarium. honour, it may be an— automatic honorarium. honour, it may be an old—fashioned word, but it should _ be an old—fashioned word, but it should have some meaning amongst the politicians _ should have some meaning amongst the politicians. who should have some meaning amongst the oliticians. ~ ., ., . politicians. who would decide, ste - hen? politicians. who would decide, stephen? you _ politicians. who would decide, stephen? you would _ politicians. who would decide, stephen? you would have - politicians. who would decide, stephen? you would have a i politicians. who would decide, i stephen? you would have a boat politicians. who would decide, - stephen? you would have a boat every three months — stephen? you would have a boat every three months from _ stephen? you would have a boat every three months from the _ stephen? you would have a boat every three months from the public. - stephen? you would have a boat every three months from the public. as - stephen? you would have a boat every three months from the public. as to i three months from the public. as to whether— three months from the public. as to whether or— three months from the public. as to whether or not you are being honourable. —— vote or. whether or not you are being honourable. -- vote or. goodness me. m ve honourable. -- vote or. goodness me. my very honourable _ honourable. -- vote or. goodness me. my very honourable trio _ honourable. -- vote or. goodness me. my very honourable trio at _ honourable. -- vote or. goodness me. my very honourable trio at the - my very honourable trio at the table, thank you so much for being with us and giving us all of these really interesting insights. thank you for your company as always. and you can watch state of chaos for the next three nights on monday on bbc two. or, if you're really keen, the first one will be on the iplayer from six tomorrow morning. a huge thanks my table trio forjoining me. and thank you for your company as alwaysm at the end of another week when events — oh, yes, events — have knocked number ten off course. attention from the outside on what's going on inside, which has given another excuse for their rivals to claim decisions of past tory governments are coming home to roost. the smoother start to the autumn political season the government hoped for, what happened to that?! rishi sunak will be back from the summit in india soon, and he wouldn't be blamed for wondering what will have gone wrong by then. you can catch anything you missed on iplayer. i'm heading to the newscast studio in a few minutes for our next edition of our weekend podcast. try that out if you fancy. and i'll look forward to seeing you back here, same time, same place, next week. goodbye for now. live from london, this is bbc news. more than 2000 people have been confirmed dead in morocco 's worst earthquake in decades. thousands have spent a second night sleeping on the open air.— on the open air. look where all these people — on the open air. look where all these people are _ on the open air. look where all these people are sleeping. - on the open air. look where all. these people are sleeping. there on the open air. look where all- these people are sleeping. there is no help for us. our houses have been cracked, others destroyed, like my daughter's house which has collapsed. we are in a chaotic state. uk prime minister rishi sunak was the chinese premier of his concerns about beijing 's interference after the arrest of a parliamentary researcher on suspicion of spying. world leaders formally adopt the joint declaration at the g20 summit in delhi as india passes on the presidency to brazil. the final communique is adopted, to the relief of the indian presidency, but there is disappointment in ukraine at the language that was watered down. the russian foreign minister says the summit was a success. joe biden arrives in hanoi to sign a new strategic partnership,

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