who's daughter molly took her own life when her world turned dark online. he is with us this morning. morning, morning. with me at the desk, journalistjane moore, author and storyteller irvine welsh, and nimco ali, activist and former conservative adviser. good morning to all of you. let's have a look at some of the front pages. almost all the papers today lead with the allegations of rape and sexual abuse made against russell brand. it's been painstaking work by the sunday times and channel for over a long period of time. their headline is russell brand, the sex predator who hid in plain sight. the observer has "labour wants new eu links in a reset of policy". the sunday express says almost a "million ditch crisis—hit nhs and go private". let's start with the biggest story of the day, these allegations against russell brand, which he has denied butjane, you have worked with him. what kind of person is he? it depends, i worked with him years ago in what i think he would freely admit where his drink and drug years. a very compelling personality. sort of takes over the room. my more recent experiences with him have been a much more humble person, somebody who has obviously got married, had children, slightly reinvented himself. so reading it, it's like, will the real russell brand please stand up and, yeah, i know we are going to talk about it later but it's a year of investigation and pretty damaging stuff. he investigation and pretty damaging stuff. , . , , stuff. he is a very big figure. he was someone — stuff. he is a very big figure. he was someone who _ stuff. he is a very big figure. he was someone who was - stuff. he is a very big figure. he was someone who was hugely i stuff. he is a very big figure. he - was someone who was hugely popular for a long time and then made himself out as a kind of health guru. you also were friends with him at some point, irving what did you think of this? it’s at some point, irving what did you think of this?— think of this? it's shocking that an bod think of this? it's shocking that anybody who — think of this? it's shocking that anybody who has _ think of this? it's shocking that anybody who has allegations i think of this? it's shocking that. anybody who has allegations made against _ anybody who has allegations made against them, it's —— he has always been _ against them, it's —— he has always been a _ against them, it's —— he has always been a flamboyant person who has settled _ been a flamboyant person who has settled down and you can't really kind of— settled down and you can't really kind of condemn anybody, which hunt them _ kind of condemn anybody, which hunt them for— kind of condemn anybody, which hunt them for sexual promiscuity, but these _ them for sexual promiscuity, but these are — them for sexual promiscuity, but these are really serious charges. people _ these are really serious charges. people never come you never know what's _ people never come you never know what's going on with people, they never_ what's going on with people, they never presented any kind of way, that is_ never presented any kind of way, that is the — never presented any kind of way, that is the heinous nature of those kind of— that is the heinous nature of those kind of crimes and i worked with harvey— kind of crimes and i worked with harvey weinstein and ijust kind of crimes and i worked with harvey weinstein and i just thought he was _ harvey weinstein and i just thought he was generic kind of hollywood buffoon, — he was generic kind of hollywood buffoon, i— he was generic kind of hollywood buffoon, i didn't really see him as a sex _ buffoon, i didn't really see him as a sex predator but obviously people don't _ a sex predator but obviously people don't advise that kind of thing so the unfortunate thing about it is you never— the unfortunate thing about it is you never know with anybody as i and russett— you never know with anybody as i and russell brand has very strongly denied — russell brand has very strongly denied he said, all of the relationships he had were consensual, it's a major story that is getting — consensual, it's a major story that is getting people talking this morning. let's turn to politics, we are about — morning. let's turn to politics, we are about to— morning. let's turn to politics, we are about to talk to the foreign secretary _ are about to talk to the foreign secretary. nimco, you've advised the conservatives and you have fallen out of _ conservatives and you have fallen out of love — conservatives and you have fallen out of love with them lately. what is the _ out of love with them lately. what is the kind — out of love with them lately. what is the kind of thing you would like to hear— is the kind of thing you would like to hear from the foreign secretary? i to hear from the foreign secretary? i advised _ to hear from the foreign secretary? i advised the foreign —— the home secretary — i advised the foreign —— the home secretary i— i advised the foreign —— the home secretary. i didn't _ i advised the foreign —— the home secretary. i didn't care _ i advised the foreign —— the home secretary. i didn't care if- i advised the foreign —— the home secretary. i didn't care if they- secretary. i didn't care if they were — secretary. i didn't care if they were labour— secretary. i didn't care if they were labour or— secretary. i didn't care if they were labour or conservative. | secretary. i didn't care if they. were labour or conservative. we secretary. i didn't care if they- were labour or conservative. we need to talk— were labour or conservative. we need to talk about _ were labour or conservative. we need to talk about violence _ were labour or conservative. we need to talk about violence against - were labour or conservative. we need to talk about violence against women i to talk about violence against women and girls— to talk about violence against women and girls and — to talk about violence against women and girls and this _ to talk about violence against women and girls and this is _ to talk about violence against women and girls and this is the _ to talk about violence against women and girls and this is the key- to talk about violence against women and girls and this is the key thing - and girls and this is the key thing with the — and girls and this is the key thing with the russell— and girls and this is the key thing with the russell brand _ and girls and this is the key thing with the russell brand allegationj and girls and this is the key thing i with the russell brand allegation as well. with the russell brand allegation as wetk sexuat— with the russell brand allegation as well. sexual violence _ with the russell brand allegation as well. sexual violence is _ with the russell brand allegation as well. sexual violence is a _ with the russell brand allegation as well. sexual violence is a global- well. sexual violence is a global pandemic — well. sexual violence is a global pandemic— well. sexual violence is a global andemic. , ., ., pandemic. 0k, he will be heading to the un pandemic. ok, he will be heading to the un general— pandemic. 0k, he will be heading to the un generalassembly_ pandemic. 0k, he will be heading to the un general assembly tonight i pandemic. 0k, he will be heading to l the un general assembly tonight and i'm sure we'll talk about that in a second but top of the list for many people around the world are the images coming out of libya. the images coming out of libya are almost too awful to absorb — but it is real. villages are gone, thousands of lives swept out to sea. we'll talk to the foreign secretary in a moment, but we asked the bbc�*s anna foster, who is on the ground in what was the city of derna, to send us her impressions. morning, laura, morning, everyone. i wanted to try and really show you what it's like to be standing here in derna at the moment. you can see already the level of destruction, the way that buildings have just been completely smashed and destroyed by the force of this water. but what that doesn't show you is what i wanted you to see, which is how widespread this damage is. if i start to turn around, this is what was the wadi, the river that ran through derna, and look, it's completely gone. everything is destroyed. it's like a wasteland. this was a narrow channel that has just widened out and taken everything with it — buildings, cars, thousands and thousands of people. if i move a little bit further round, you can see this is the only way now to get across the river. there are people walking on foot, there are cars going across this bumpy and jagged road, because there's really nowhere near enough aid here either. you can see really at this stage you would expect there to be so many more trucks, so many more people. there are lots of local libyans doing what they can here. but when you look back upstream to where that dam burst and those thousands and thousands and thousands of litres of water just came pouring down this area, it really shows you how desperate the situation is for the survivors. theyjust don't have what they need. a terrible 360 degrees reality of what's happening on the ground in derna. welcome to you, foreign secretary. we heard from anna and our team on the ground and we've spoken to other sources who say there isn't enough expertise there yet, there isn't enough technology. they want that kind of help. what is the uk giving and when can it arrive? ~ , , , ., ., arrive? well, firstly, the situation there i arrive? well, firstly, the situation there i think _ arrive? well, firstly, the situation there i think it's _ arrive? well, firstly, the situation there i think it's very _ arrive? well, firstly, the situation there i think it's very difficult - there i think it's very difficult for most people to comprehend, the scale of the damage, and we've seen some of it there. one of the big challenges with libya is unlike in other areas where the uk has been able to join other countries in supporting for example during the turkish earthquakes or during the recent earthquakes in morocco in both those countries there was a high functioning government that we could liaise with, that we could plug into, that we could coordinate with. sadly, in the eastern part of libya, wejust with. sadly, in the eastern part of libya, we just don't have that and thatis libya, we just don't have that and that is why we are not seeing the international support on the ground as we would wish. the uk has allocated £1 million already. we are contributing an additional 10 million to help across the wider north african region, both morocco and libya, and we've got an emergency medical team who are deploying and we will look at what more we can do.— deploying and we will look at what more we can do. people have been askin: on more we can do. people have been asking on the _ more we can do. people have been asking on the ground _ more we can do. people have been asking on the ground for— more we can do. people have been| asking on the ground for expertise, trained rescuers, from what you said, does that mean it's impossible for the uk to get that help there? i'm not going to say it's impossible, of course not, but it is so much harder and in the conversations i've had in the past where we've deployed aid experts it's notjust about where we've deployed aid experts it's not just about sending them where we've deployed aid experts it's notjust about sending them but thatis it's notjust about sending them but that is the bit that we see, but of course they have to be received in country, they have to have the logistics, they have to be able to get to the right place, they have to have authorities to liaise with, and in eastern libya at the moment many of those things are just not in place. that makes it so much harder. does the uk bear any responsibility for what is now happening in libya, which is basically run by two rival factions, you've expressed how difficult that makes it to help, but the uk intervened in libya to remove gaddafi. in place there are these two warring factions. do we bear a special responsibility therefore to try to help, not to say it's too hard? , ., ., ., ., , hard? first of all we are not being fatalistic about _ hard? first of all we are not being fatalistic about this, _ hard? first of all we are not being fatalistic about this, we _ hard? first of all we are not being fatalistic about this, we will - fatalistic about this, we will continue to do whatever we can to help, we will continue working with international partners. in fact, i discussed this my recent trip to ankara with the turkish authorities who are seeking to help. colonel gaddafi perpetrated brutality not just on his own people but more broadly. libya has not recovered from the civil war that raged across that country for many, many years. the uk played an active part. i personally played an active part through what's known as the berlin process which is an international coalition to try and bring about elections, to try and get a high functioning government, but unfortunately, as we are seeing, we have not been successful. does unfortunately, as we are seeing, we have not been successful.— have not been successful. does that mean the uk _ have not been successful. does that mean the uk has _ have not been successful. does that mean the uk has a _ mean the uk has a particular responsibility to try to help now? the whole international community is working towards this and of course we want to play our part. we do not pretend that we can do that on our own. we are a significant player and our assistance is often sought after because we have such expertise. we cannot do this alone and it is particularly difficult in these circumstances.— particularly difficult in these circumstances. �*, ., ,, ., circumstances. let's talk about the uk's role. circumstances. let's talk about the uk's role- you _ circumstances. let's talk about the uk's role. you say _ circumstances. let's talk about the uk's role. you say the uk - circumstances. let's talk about the uk's role. you say the uk is - circumstances. let's talk about the uk's role. you say the uk is often. uk's role. you say the uk is often called upon and that is the case but your department under your leadership has cut the amount that's been spent on aid. what do you think the consequence of that is what you mark if you look at the numbers, in 2019 when spent £15 billion a year on foreign aid, now it is 12 billion in 2022. ~ �* ., ., , ., in 2022. we've got to recognise that our overseas. _ in 2022. we've got to recognise that our overseas, sorry, _ in 2022. we've got to recognise that our overseas, sorry, overseas - our overseas, sorry, overseas development assistance, our aid budget in your shorthand, is basically defined by the scale of our economy and our economy, like every other country in the world, was very significantly hit by covid and we've got to respond to that. that said, we are still one of the largest aid donor is in the world. that's not my question. the aid budget has gone down. is there a consequence to that?— budget has gone down. is there a consequence to that? well, you can never reduce _ consequence to that? well, you can never reduce budgets _ consequence to that? well, you can never reduce budgets without - consequence to that? well, you can never reduce budgets without any i never reduce budgets without any consequences at all. what we have done is we have made sure the money that we spend leverages in other international money. we are driving innovation in things like the world bank and other international financial institutions. we are making sure that we maximise the effectiveness of our development budget fuss by a third of our money, which our viewers might know, is actually being spent in the uk on asylum seekers or refugees who come here. less money is being spent, a third of that is being spent at home. do you accept then that actually the uk is spending power —— the uk's spending power to help the most vulnerable people in the world are significantly diminished? that's what the independent commission for aid impacts, which is a government run body, said the uk's role is diminished, it says the uk's reputation has been undermined, and it says there's been a severe impact on the amount of help the uk can provide. do you accept that? of course when we are forced to reduce our spending that has implications for site you are not forced to, it's a political choice, it's a political decision where to put the money and you have taken money out of international aid. so the official development assistance, a lot of people think of it, a lot of people and i almost slipped up myself, think of it as overseas development assistance but the definition of what is 0da expenditure is defined internationally and the money we spend i think is absolutely right that we spend money supporting people fleeing conflict, as for example people fleeing ukraine. the question is whether you accept that with a cut to the budget and a third of the aid budget being spent in the uk, rightly or wrongly, of the aid budget being spent in the uk, rightly orwrongly, but of the aid budget being spent in the uk, rightly or wrongly, but do you accept the verdict of an independent organisation funded by taxpayers, that i said the uk's reputation has been undermined and there has been a severe impact on our capacity to help people in need? 50 severe impact on our capacity to help people in need?— severe impact on our capacity to help people in need? so the point is when ou help people in need? so the point is when you have _ help people in need? so the point is when you have less _ help people in need? so the point is when you have less money - help people in need? so the point is when you have less money to - help people in need? so the point is when you have less money to spend| help people in need? so the point is i when you have less money to spend of course it has an impact but what we have done through the time that i've been foreign secretary is to make sure that we are maximising the use of what we have got to spend and we are still one of the largest aid donors in the world, both by percentage and in absolute terms. even in these most difficult times and i think it's worth people understanding this, even in the most difficult times we are still spending more on 0da, official development assistance, as a percentage of our gni, than any year under the labour government, at any year. under the labour government, at any ear. �* , , ., , year. there's been a severe impact on the ability _ year. there's been a severe impact on the ability to _ year. there's been a severe impact on the ability to help _ year. there's been a severe impact on the ability to help the _ year. there's been a severe impact on the ability to help the well's - on the ability to help the well's most vulnerable people. it says spending here is an inefficient use of the aid budget. 50 i spending here is an inefficient use of the aid budget.— of the aid budget. so i i respect but disagree — of the aid budget. so i i respect but disagree because _ of the aid budget. so i i respect but disagree because we - of the aid budget. so i i respect but disagree because we are . of the aid budget. so i i respect - but disagree because we are driving forward efficiencies, we are making money work hard. i'll give you an example, on a trip i went to syria which, when my mother is from, and i looked at a project where we had invested in a commercial investment, invested in a commercial investment, in a forestry investment, good husbandry of the natural environment and as a by—product of that a huge increase in the number of women that were employed and because those women were becoming the money, the people bringing money into the household, they have more authority in the household which diminished sexual violence in the household. that is one specific project. that is one specific pro'ect. there are lots that is one specific pro'ect. there lots of — that is one specific pro'ect. there are lots of projects _ that is one specific project. there are lots of projects like _ that is one specific project. there are lots of projects like that. - that is one specific project. there are lots of projects like that. do i are lots of pro'ects like that. do ou are lots of projects like that. do you accept that they uk's role on the world stage has been diminished by these decisions? the the world stage has been diminished by these decisions?— by these decisions? the point i'm makin: is by these decisions? the point i'm making is that — by these decisions? the point i'm making is that all _ by these decisions? the point i'm making is that all financial - making is that all financial decisions have implications. if you have less money. so decisions have implications. if you have less money.— decisions have implications. if you have less money. so you don't deny @ we don'tjust — have less money. so you don't deny @ we don'tjust sit _ have less money. so you don't deny @ we don'tjust sit back _ have less money. so you don't deny @ we don'tjust sit back and _ have less money. so you don't deny @ we don'tjust sit back and go, - have less money. so you don't deny @ we don'tjust sit back and go, well, . we don'tjust sit back and go, well, life is tough, what we do is something about it.- life is tough, what we do is something about it. life is tough, what we do is somethin: about it. �*, ., ,, ., something about it. let's talk about a different subject, _ something about it. let's talk about a different subject, china, - something about it. let's talk about a different subject, china, huge - a different subject, china, huge concern about what's happened here in the last few months when it was revealed last weekend there was a parliamentary staffer who was arrested on allegations of spying for china. i want to play people of of what happened at prime minister's questions this week. did the foreign secretary raise this specific— did the foreign secretary raise this specific case when he visited china? yes or— specific case when he visited china? yes or no? — specific case when he visited china? yes or no? |— specific case when he visited china? yes or no? ., , yes or no? i will refer to my previous _ yes or no? i will refer to my previous answer _ yes or no? i will refer to my previous answer where - yes or no? i will refer to my previous answer where i - yes or no? i will refer to my| previous answer where i said yes or no? i will refer to my - previous answer where i said very ctearty _ previous answer where i said very ctearty that — previous answer where i said very clearly that the _ previous answer where i said very clearly that the foreign _ previous answer where i said very clearly that the foreign secretaryj clearly that the foreign secretary raised _ clearly that the foreign secretary raised these _ clearly that the foreign secretary raised these issues _ clearly that the foreign secretary raised these issues with - clearly that the foreign secretary raised these issues with the - clearly that the foreign secretary i raised these issues with the chinese foreign— raised these issues with the chinese foreign minister, _ raised these issues with the chinese foreign minister, who _ raised these issues with the chinese foreign minister, who he _ raised these issues with the chinese foreign minister, who he met, - raised these issues with the chinese foreign minister, who he met, as i raised these issues with the chinesel foreign minister, who he met, as did i foreign minister, who he met, as did i when _ foreign minister, who he met, as did i when i _ foreign minister, who he met, as did i when i had — foreign minister, who he met, as did iwhen i had my— foreign minister, who he met, as did i when i had my meeting _ foreign minister, who he met, as did i when i had my meeting with- foreign minister, who he met, as didl i when i had my meeting with premier xi over— i when i had my meeting with premier xi over the _ i when i had my meeting with premier xi over the weekend. _ i when i had my meeting with premier xi over the weekend. did _ i when i had my meeting with premier xi over the weekend.— xi over the weekend. did you raise the specific — xi over the weekend. did you raise the specific case _ xi over the weekend. did you raise the specific case of _ xi over the weekend. did you raise the specific case of someone - xi over the weekend. did you raise i the specific case of someone alleged to be spying in the chinese environment? we to be spying in the chinese environment?— to be spying in the chinese environment? ~ ., ., ., environment? we do not comment on intelli . ence environment? we do not comment on intelligence and _ environment? we do not comment on intelligence and security _ environment? we do not comment on intelligence and security committee i intelligence and security committee is. the prime minister is right, that he and i raised with the chinese authorities that actions which are seeking to undermine or distort our democracy. xyour distort our democracy. your officials were _ distort our democracy. your officials were happy - distort our democracy. your officials were happy to - distort our democracy. your officials were happy to briefj distort our democracy. your officials were happy to brief you raise the case ofjimmy li. also the case of a scottish seat. sometimes politicians are absolutely willing to tell us what they raised in meetings. to tell us what they raised in meetings-— to tell us what they raised in meetinus. ., ,., meetings. both of those cases are consular issues. — meetings. both of those cases are consular issues, which _ meetings. both of those cases are consular issues, which we - meetings. both of those cases are consular issues, which we raise. i meetings. both of those cases are | consular issues, which we raise. in a number of instances are consular cases, not all, we publicise the fact we raise them. on intelligence and security committee as we do comment. ., . , and security committee as we do comment. ., ., , , ,, , ., comment. you raise these issues and ou are comment. you raise these issues and you are talking _ comment. you raise these issues and you are talking about _ comment. you raise these issues and you are talking about intelligence - you are talking about intelligence and security committee related issues. ., .., and security committee related issues. ., ,, , and security committee related issues. ., ,, ., issues. you can keep asking and i can keep giving — issues. you can keep asking and i can keep giving you _ issues. you can keep asking and i can keep giving you the _ issues. you can keep asking and i can keep giving you the same - issues. you can keep asking and i - can keep giving you the same answer. with our viewers be wrong to take from that you did not raise this case specifically the chinese authorities? brute case specifically the chinese authorities?— case specifically the chinese authorities? ~ ., ., ., authorities? we do not comment on intelligence — authorities? we do not comment on intelligence and _ authorities? we do not comment on intelligence and security _ authorities? we do not comment on intelligence and security related - intelligence and security related issues. ,., , , ., ,, issues. the government did speak about this last _ issues. the government did speak about this last week. _ issues. the government did speak about this last week. rishi - issues. the government did speak about this last week. rishi sunakl about this last week. rishi sunak said he raised the issues at the summit in the g20's. he did. we raise the summit in the gzo's. he did. - raise the sanctity of our democracy, issues of any kind of interference in our democracy. we always highlight the importance that all countries adhere to the vienna convention obligations, the rules that dictate how governments and nations interact with each other. we do raise these issues of concern. i am not going to, the prime minister will not and no matter how many times he ask, i will not talk about intelligence or security issues. we were aware of this case... intelligence or security issues. we were aware of this case. .. i - intelligence or security issues. we were aware of this case... i am i intelligence or security issues. we l were aware of this case... i am not auoin to were aware of this case... i am not going to comment. _ were aware of this case... i am not going to comment. when - were aware of this case... i am not going to comment. when people i were aware of this case... i am not i going to comment. when people look at what ou going to comment. when people look at what you and _ going to comment. when people look at what you and rishi _ going to comment. when people look at what you and rishi sunak - going to comment. when people look at what you and rishi sunak t1 - at what you and rishi sunak t1 china, everyone thinks it is important that they think you are not being tough enough or explicit enough. some in your own party believe that. we enough. some in your own party believe that.— believe that. we have to engage directly with _ believe that. we have to engage directly with china. _ believe that. we have to engage directly with china. there - believe that. we have to engage directly with china. there are . believe that. we have to engage directly with china. there are a i directly with china. there are a number of issues, including, for example, the sanctioning of british parliamentarians and another number of issues, like hong kong and the importance of respecting each other�*s democratic system is all political systems, other�*s democratic system is all politicalsystems, in other�*s democratic system is all political systems, in their case, rather than democratic systems. of course we raise these issues. the best way of raising them is face to face. disengaging is not a credible policy and that is why we raise is conversation so we can have these difficult conversations. aha, conversation so we can have these difficult conversations.— difficult conversations. a couple of thin . s i difficult conversations. a couple of things i would _ difficult conversations. a couple of things i would briefly _ difficult conversations. a couple of things i would briefly like - difficult conversations. a couple of things i would briefly like to - difficult conversations. a couple of things i would briefly like to ask i things i would briefly like to ask you about. you were a proud member of the london assembly. i want to ask about the conservative candidate to become mayor of london, susan hall. injanuary to become mayor of london, susan hall. in january 2019 to become mayor of london, susan hall. injanuary 2019 she retweeted a post referring to sadiq khan as the mayor of londonistan and in february 2020 she liked something from a picture of enoch powell saying we want to take london back. i have not seen those things. i am always cautious of commenting without seeing them directly myself. i can tell you. i without seeing them directly myself. l can tell you— i can tell you. i know susan. i have worked with _ i can tell you. i know susan. i have worked with her— i can tell you. i know susan. i have worked with her for _ i can tell you. i know susan. i have worked with her for a _ i can tell you. i know susan. i have worked with her for a long - i can tell you. i know susan. i have worked with her for a long time. i i can tell you. i know susan. i have i worked with her for a long time. she worked with herfor a long time. she is like most of us in the conservative party. she is... you a . ree conservative party. she is... you agree with _ conservative party. she is... you agree with those _ conservative party. she is... you agree with those views? she - conservative party. she is... you agree with those views? she is i agree with those views? she is comfortable — agree with those views? she is comfortable working _ agree with those views? she is comfortable working with - agree with those views? she is i comfortable working with people across all the ethnic representation of the city and the country. she is passionate about making sure that london is a safe, a prosperous place for people to living and working and she has been ferocious in highlighting sadiq khan's ineptitude as mayor of london. the point is, of course, i would not. without seeing her explanation as to what happened there, i am uncomfortable with speculating about the exact circumstances of that but the point is, i know she is passionate about london and all londoners, as our way. i london and all londoners, as our wa . . , london and all londoners, as our wa . ., , ., ., london and all londoners, as our wa. ~, ., way. i finally want to ask about the scandal of russell _ way. i finally want to ask about the scandal of russell brand _ way. i finally want to ask about the scandal of russell brand and - way. i finally want to ask about the scandal of russell brand and the i scandal of russell brand and the alleged appalling behaviour. in a wider sense, alleged appalling behaviour. in a widersense, do alleged appalling behaviour. in a wider sense, do you think from what we know now there are wider questions of the entertainment industry must answer? i questions of the entertainment industry must answer?- questions of the entertainment industry must answer? i think there are some real— industry must answer? i think there are some real challenges _ industry must answer? i think there are some real challenges where - industry must answer? i think there j are some real challenges where you had is very, very acute differentials in power, whether that be in the entertainment industry, whether in politics. we see this in the commercial world as well. i think we have to be particularly careful when we listen to the voices of people who are relatively powerless because we, i think, collectively had missed opportunities to do the right thing and intervene much, much earlier and we had to be better at this. do and intervene much, much earlier and we had to be better at this.— we had to be better at this. do you think there — we had to be better at this. do you think there are _ we had to be better at this. do you think there are questions - we had to be better at this. do you think there are questions for - think there are questions for the industry? think there are questions for the indust ? , ~' think there are questions for the indust ? , ,, ., well, the foreign secretary is one of the most senior politicians in the country. what did you think about what he had to say? e—mail us at kuenssberg@bbc.co.uk or on social use the hashtag bbclaurak. lets get back to our panel, who are listening intently to all of that. jane, what did you make to the fact he said the entertainment industry has questions to answer? i he said the entertainment industry has questions to answer?- has questions to answer? i would auree. b has questions to answer? i would agree- by the _ has questions to answer? i would agree. by the time _ has questions to answer? i would agree. by the time i _ has questions to answer? i would agree. by the time i got - has questions to answer? i would agree. by the time i got to - has questions to answer? i would agree. by the time i got to the i has questions to answer? i would i agree. by the time i got to the end of the documentary last night but there were lots of mentions of freedom of information requests that had sort of full on stony ground and not gone anywhere. what i think there wider debate about the documentary at the end of it will be met will other people come forward who have worked within the industry, who have worked within the industry, who will say i made a complaint at the time and it was covered up? that will be across all mainstream media. there have been a few other cases recently and across various industries as well, if you look at what is happening over at bp. i think, yes, as he correctly said, where there is a division of power now, times have changed. there needs to be very strict procedures and due process in place. if somebodyjunior comes forward and says, i have had this issue, rather than going, never mind that we will sort something out, whatever, and nothing ever comes from it but there needs to be a due process where it is investigated at the time. this will be interesting minutes documentary, in terms of whether anybody else comes forward to add their story because they felt at the time they were not listened to. it is important _ were not listened to. it is important to _ were not listened to. it is important to have - were not listened to. it is important to have these l were not listened to. it is important to have these procedures in place _ important to have these procedures in place and the culture of the organisation as important as well. at the _ organisation as important as well. at the bbc, we had the jimmy savile dramatisation side there for ages because — dramatisation side there for ages because it — dramatisation side there for ages because it obviously involves people in power _ because it obviously involves people in power. we need to make sure people _ in power. we need to make sure people feel comfortable and it is an environment where people can be listened _ environment where people can be listened to. do environment where people can be listened to-_ listened to. do you think we have seen change _ listened to. do you think we have seen change here? _ listened to. do you think we have seen change here? it _ listened to. do you think we have seen change here? it was - listened to. do you think we have seen change here? it was a - listened to. do you think we have seen change here? it was a few i listened to. do you think we have - seen change here? it was a few years ago we had the opening up of the #metoo conversation and yet these things seem to be opening up. hope things seem to be opening up. how has it changed? _ things seem to be opening up. how has it changed? it _ things seem to be opening up. how has it changed? it has changed and changed _ has it changed? it has changed and changed for the better. women feel more comfortable coming forward and there is— more comfortable coming forward and there is a _ more comfortable coming forward and there is a culture, a bigger environment. too much of it seems to kind of— environment. too much of it seems to kind of go— environment. too much of it seems to kind of go around, take place on a kind of go around, take place on a kind of— kind of go around, take place on a kind of a _ kind of go around, take place on a kind of a pitchfork social media atmosphere. the women come forward and make _ atmosphere. the women come forward and make complaints and they are demonised. the recipients of the complaint — demonised. the recipients of the complaint are demonised as well. this takes— complaint are demonised as well. this takes place and i do not think anyone _ this takes place and i do not think anyone is— this takes place and i do not think anyone is in— this takes place and i do not think anyone is in favour. he this takes place and i do not think anyone is in favour.— this takes place and i do not think anyone is in favour. he spent a long time working _ anyone is in favour. he spent a long time working on _ anyone is in favour. he spent a long time working on these _ anyone is in favour. he spent a long time working on these issues, - anyone is in favour. he spent a long | time working on these issues, trying to combat violence against women and girls. == to combat violence against women and uirls. , ., , , ., to combat violence against women and uirls. ,, ., girls. -- you spend. the whole point is we are having _ girls. -- you spend. the whole point is we are having conversations - girls. -- you spend. the whole pointj is we are having conversations about public figures. the real point is there is sexual violence and a high percentage of rapists never go to prison or get prosecuted. we need to have that conversation. i do not want to sit here and demonise all men but the point is, most men do not know someone who has rape someone but most women know someone who has been raped. what someone but most women know someone who has been raped-— who has been raped. what is the broader conversation _ who has been raped. what is the broader conversation about? - who has been raped. what is the i broader conversation about? better prosecutions- _ broader conversation about? better prosecutions. we _ broader conversation about? better prosecutions. we need _ broader conversation about? better prosecutions. we need to _ broader conversation about? better prosecutions. we need to set - broader conversation about? better prosecutions. we need to set up i prosecutions. we need to set up special courts to make sure victims and those accused get to the criminaljustice and those accused get to the criminal justice system and those accused get to the criminaljustice system so we are seen to be doing something. at the moment there is a minimum of 82—macro to three year wait before anything is done. the rapist, there is a curious, are out with the victims and the victims drop out. we need to take the issues more seriously. need to take the issues more seriously-— seriously. there is a lot of narrative _ seriously. there is a lot of narrative at _ seriously. there is a lot of narrative at the _ seriously. there is a lot of narrative at the time - seriously. there is a lot of narrative at the time and l seriously. there is a lot of| narrative at the time and a seriously. there is a lot of - narrative at the time and a lot online — narrative at the time and a lot online with people saying, why didn't— online with people saying, why didn't they say anything at the time? — didn't they say anything at the time? they did go to the police and the people — time? they did go to the police and the people they worked for and nothing — the people they worked for and nothing happened. in the end, you end up— nothing happened. in the end, you end up with — nothing happened. in the end, you end up with this being put out in the media, — end up with this being put out in the media, the only way they get attention— the media, the only way they get attention brought to what they allegedly went through. you have another series _ allegedly went through. you have another series of _ allegedly went through. you have another series of your _ allegedly went through. you have another series of your big - allegedly went through. you have another series of your big tv - allegedly went through. you have i another series of your big tv drama coming soon. abuse is one of the major themes in that. why do you think institutions are still failing to confront these problems? basically because they are male dominated and it is a very... saying there is no culture for men to address these issues. there is also the kind of, the anonymity of it almost. people do not present in that way two other men. you have people who are loyal friends and then you may be get talking to women and they will say, that guy is completely dodgy, there is something... you know? something they never present to you in that is why, it is not about really say much about men colluding and not identifying as sexual predators that sexual predators get identified by men. they tend to be ostracised very quickly. it is a cloak of invisibility around it. i quickly. it is a cloak of invisibility around it. i have four brothers and — invisibility around it. i have four brothers and i _ invisibility around it. i have four brothers and i said _ invisibility around it. i have four brothers and i said if _ invisibility around it. i have four brothers and i said if any - invisibility around it. i have four brothers and i said if any of - invisibility around it. i have four| brothers and i said if any of your friends — brothers and i said if any of your friends are — brothers and i said if any of your friends are making rape jokes, they are either— friends are making rape jokes, they are either rapist or looking for accomplices. as women we are vigilant — accomplices. as women we are vigilant it— accomplices. as women we are vigilant. it is passing out onto the male _ vigilant. it is passing out onto the male counterparts in families. the arena in which _ male counterparts in families. iie: arena in which some male counterparts in families. tie: arena in which some of male counterparts in families. “iie: arena in which some of the conversations are happening is online. it can get very bitter and very vitriolic. the 0nline safety bill, which has been dragging on for a long time will become law. in a couple of minutes we'll be talking to ian russell, father of molly russell. you describe yourself as a millennial, nimco do you think any government can crack this problem? every young women every young man, talks about the dark side of the internet? ,,., , . talks about the dark side of the internet? , �* , internet? the online safety bill is a step forward _ internet? the online safety bill is a step forward and _ internet? the online safety bill is a step forward and that _ internet? the online safety bill is a step forward and that is - internet? the online safety bill is a step forward and that is what i internet? the online safety bill is| a step forward and that is what we need to do. we need to be able to take that step and start to address the issues. my generation was lucky enough to be on dial up to the internet was not as prolific as it is. it internet was not as prolific as it is. . , internet was not as prolific as it is. ., , ., ., , , ., it is. it was there and it was slow. it was there — is. it was there and it was slow. it was there and _ is. it was there and it was slow. it was there and slow _ is. it was there and it was slow. it was there and slow and _ is. it was there and it was slow. it was there and slow and limited. i is. it was there and it was slow. it i was there and slow and limited. the vast majority of young people are online and we had this misunderstanding from analog settings, thinking online presence is separate from a physical existence. people are leading a dual life online and physical as well and we have to make that as safe as possible just as we tell them how safe is to cross the road. —— how safely to cross the road. i5 safe is to cross the road. -- how safely to cross the road.- safe is to cross the road. -- how safely to cross the road. is part of a much bigger— safely to cross the road. is part of a much bigger problem. - safely to cross the road. is part of a much bigger problem. the - safely to cross the road. is part of| a much bigger problem. the whole concept _ a much bigger problem. the whole concept of— a much bigger problem. the whole concept of addiction, people are addicted — concept of addiction, people are addicted to dopamine hits. it is an addiction — addicted to dopamine hits. it is an addiction. it is like, a book was written — addiction. it is like, a book was written by— addiction. it is like, a book was written byjohn king, a story about kind of— written byjohn king, a story about kind of young kids who had nothing other— kind of young kids who had nothing other than— kind of young kids who had nothing other than that online lives and they— other than that online lives and they are — other than that online lives and they are addicted to everything, they are addicted to everything, they are — they are addicted to everything, they are sexualised through online pornography and do not know how to operate _ pornography and do not know how to operate with a 3d person. they can sit and _ operate with a 3d person. they can sit and order— operate with a 3d person. they can sit and order delivery and eat horribly— sit and order delivery and eat horribly addictive foods full of salt and — horribly addictive foods full of salt and sugar. it horribly addictive foods full of salt and sugar.— horribly addictive foods full of salt and sugar. it was about the whole existence. _ salt and sugar. it was about the whole existence. the _ salt and sugar. it was about the whole existence. the children i salt and sugar. it was about the i whole existence. the children were educated. we had to understand the digital world has changed and become part of that existence. it digital world has changed and become part of that existence.— part of that existence. it also has to become _ part of that existence. it also has to become a _ part of that existence. it also has to become a pincer— part of that existence. it also has to become a pincer movement. i part of that existence. it also has| to become a pincer movement. in certain— to become a pincer movement. in certain sections— to become a pincer movement. in certain sections of— to become a pincer movement. in certain sections of society, - certain sections of society, parental— certain sections of society, parental influence - certain sections of society, parental influence does - certain sections of society, | parental influence does not certain sections of society, - parental influence does not come in for that— parental influence does not come in for that they — parental influence does not come in for that they need _ parental influence does not come in for that they need to _ parental influence does not come in for that they need to be _ parental influence does not come in for that they need to be protected i for that they need to be protected by this— for that they need to be protected by this bill — for that they need to be protected by this bill. there _ for that they need to be protected by this bill. there are _ for that they need to be protected by this bill. there are a _ for that they need to be protected by this bill. there are a lot- for that they need to be protected by this bill. there are a lot of- by this bill. there are a lot of parents — by this bill. there are a lot of parents out _ by this bill. there are a lot of parents out there _ by this bill. there are a lot of parents out there who, - by this bill. there are a lot of parents out there who, all i by this bill. there are a lot of| parents out there who, all our by this bill. there are a lot of- parents out there who, all our lives but we _ parents out there who, all our lives but we say, — parents out there who, all our lives but we say, do _ parents out there who, all our lives but we say, do not _ parents out there who, all our lives but we say, do not talk _ parents out there who, all our lives but we say, do not talk to - but we say, do not talk to strangers. _ but we say, do not talk to strangers, make - but we say, do not talk to strangers, make sure - but we say, do not talk to strangers, make sure you but we say, do not talk to - strangers, make sure you get a cab home, _ strangers, make sure you get a cab home, whatever~ _ strangers, make sure you get a cab home, whatever. sometimes- strangers, make sure you get a cab home, whatever. sometimes at - strangers, make sure you get a cab| home, whatever. sometimes at the strangers, make sure you get a cab- home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, _ home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we _ home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we had — home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we had a — home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we had a child _ home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we had a child a _ home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we had a child a device - home, whatever. sometimes at the age of nine, we had a child a device to- of nine, we had a child a device to -ive of nine, we had a child a device to give access— of nine, we had a child a device to give access to _ of nine, we had a child a device to give access to every _ of nine, we had a child a device to give access to every sort - of nine, we had a child a device to give access to every sort of - of nine, we had a child a device to give access to every sort of bad i give access to every sort of bad person — give access to every sort of bad person in— give access to every sort of bad person in the _ give access to every sort of bad person in the world _ give access to every sort of bad person in the world to - give access to every sort of bad person in the world to get - give access to every sort of bad person in the world to get at i give access to every sort of bad i person in the world to get at them through— person in the world to get at them through this — person in the world to get at them through this phone. _ person in the world to get at them through this phone. parents - person in the world to get at them through this phone. parents are i through this phone. parents are ignorant— through this phone. parents are ignorant of— through this phone. parents are ignorant of that _ through this phone. parents are ignorant of that and _ through this phone. parents are ignorant of that and need - through this phone. parents are ignorant of that and need to - through this phone. parents are - ignorant of that and need to educate themselves — ignorant of that and need to educate themselves. white _ ignorant of that and need to educate themselves. white and _ ignorant of that and need to educate themselves. white and parent - ignorant of that and need to educatel themselves. white and parent sitting on their— themselves. white and parent sitting on their own — themselves. white and parent sitting on their own fans _ themselves. white and parent sitting on their own fans telling _ themselves. white and parent sitting on their own fans telling children - on their own fans telling children to get— on their own fans telling children to get off— on their own fans telling children to get off their— on their own fans telling children to get off their phones. - on their own fans telling children to get off their phones. —— - on their own fans telling children to get off their phones. —- find i to get off their phones. -- and arents. to get off their phones. —— parents. government plans to get off their phones. ——- parents. government plans have to get off their phones. ——_ parents. government plans have taken a long time to get through with all sorts of interesting arguments and debates about it. thank you will. back later in the show. managing what happens online sometimes feels like the challenge of a generation, felt by almost every family. the response from you to kate winslet�*s call for action after making a drama, i am ruth, about what can go wrong, was huge. the people who know that they could do better to protect our children should just be doing that. whoever those people are, they know who they are, they should just step up and do better. the government's online safety bill, which campaigners have been fighting for, is at last in its final stages. but do the families who have worked so hard to make it happen think it does the job? we're privileged to have ian russell with us today, the father of molly russell, who ended her life aged just 1a after seeing images of self—harm online. welcome to the programme. thank you, laura. will welcome to the programme. thank you, laura- will this — welcome to the programme. thank you, laura. wau this bill— welcome to the programme. thank you, laura. will this bill makes _ welcome to the programme. thank you, laura. will this bill makes the _ laura. will this bill makes the onune laura. will this bill makes the online world _ laura. will this bill makes the online world safer— laura. will this bill makes the online world safer for - laura. will this bill makes the online world safer for kids - laura. will this bill makes the - online world safer for kids online? this bill weld make the online world safer. i'm convinced it's not perfect, i should say, they were saying that in the commons on tuesday when it was debated there, but it's an important step and it's a step that has been needed for years to counter this new technology, to counter these changes that are happening so fast that society doesn't quite know what to do with. �* . society doesn't quite know what to do with. . ., ., , , do with. and where are the gaps thou . h? do with. and where are the gaps though? is _ do with. and where are the gaps though? is a _ do with. and where are the gaps though? is a gaps _ do with. and where are the gaps though? is a gaps in _ do with. and where are the gaps though? is a gaps in the - do with. and where are the gaps though? is a gaps in the bill- do with. and where are the gaps though? is a gaps in the bill will| though? is a gaps in the bill will come out- _ though? is a gaps in the bill will come out- l _ though? is a gaps in the bill will come out. ithink— though? is a gaps in the bill will come out. i think the _ though? is a gaps in the bill will come out. i think the gaps - though? is a gaps in the bill will come out. i think the gaps are i though? is a gaps in the bill will. come out. i think the gaps are all to do with how fast tech changes. there's been a lot of talk change any over new technologies like ai, for example. the bill is designed to be future proof. it's not intended to be technology specific. it doesn't deal in the internet as we doesn't deal in the internet as we do it —— as we know it today. it's trying to set protocols for future tech who is to say what might happen in the future and as new technologies emerge they will be emerging harms that come with them. you've worked so hard and for such a long time along with other campaigners. will the measures that have been put forward actually stop the kind of images that molly saw being seen by other children? that is the test of _ being seen by other children? that is the test of the _ being seen by other children? “irisgt is the test of the bill. there are many other families, is the test of the bill. there are many otherfamilies, it's notjust me, who have been campaigning for better online safety and the bereaved families for online safety group for example, have too many tragic stories to tell. some like molly's and some quite different. but if the bill fails to stop online harms that all our children saw then it will have failed. so it has to go further. and now, once this becomes law, we are in a new phase, we are ina new law, we are in a new phase, we are in a new phase where 0fcom is the regulator appointed by the government to police the internet if you like, to regulate the tech industry, has to get out of the blocks really fast. it can't waste time. it has to move fast and be bold and enact the clauses set out in the bill in order to make the online world saferfor in the bill in order to make the online world safer for children but i 0fcom becomes a policeman, really, don't they? are you confident they've got the expertise to do it, that they've got the knowledge to do it? 0fcom have a really tough job. it? 0fcom have a really toughjob. they are going up against some of the biggest, most well funded corporations on the planet, but they've already been stuffing up stop they've got hundreds of people working on online safety already. —— they've already been increasing staff. those people are drawn from all kinds of society, people have been trying to police the digital world, former police people, former tech people, and of course former legal people as well to advise them about how they can go about making the world safe. d0 about how they can go about making the world safe.— the world safe. do you think it's realistic, the world safe. do you think it's realistic. if _ the world safe. do you think it's realistic, if you've _ the world safe. do you think it's realistic, if you've got _ the world safe. do you think it's realistic, if you've got a - the world safe. do you think it's. realistic, if you've got a regulator based in london with a few hundred staff doing their best, i'm sure, up against google, twitter, x we should call it these days, these huge tech platforms. it's david and goliath, isn't it? it platforms. it's david and goliath, isn't it? . . . platforms. it's david and goliath, isn't it? , ., , ., isn't it? it is a bit david and goliath, — isn't it? it is a bit david and goliath, that's _ isn't it? it is a bit david and goliath, that's not - isn't it? it is a bit david and goliath, that's not a - isn't it? it is a bit david and goliath, that's not a reasonj isn't it? it is a bit david and i goliath, that's not a reason for isn't it? it is a bit david and - goliath, that's not a reason for not doing it. the fact this bill has been a long time through parliament has been really frustrating for those of us who have lost children, who's been affected, but that length of time has allowed it to be scrutinised hugely. the political process has been really, really thorough and i think 0fcom have a really good platform. the legislation seems to me, it's a draft framework, there needs to be secondary legislation, 0fcom needs to draft codes of practice, there is still much to do, but the base where we are now is the important first step and along with countries like australia, in europe and even the us, online safety is a bigger, more public aware priority. that is what will change the world, when the world gets together. the will change the world, when the world gets together.— will change the world, when the world gets together. the first step has been taken _ world gets together. the first step has been taken and _ world gets together. the first step has been taken and it _ world gets together. the first step has been taken and it is _ world gets together. the first step has been taken and it is a - has been taken and it is a significant step, what would the next one be that you would like to see? there are conversations about jail terms for tech bosses who refused to follow the rules. what would you want to do? so refused to follow the rules. what would you want to do? 50 i refused to follow the rules. what would you want to do?— refused to follow the rules. what would you want to do? so i think i thou~ht would you want to do? so i think i thought always — would you want to do? so i think i thought always that _ would you want to do? so i think i thought always that jail _ would you want to do? so i think i thought always that jail terms - would you want to do? so i think i thought always that jail terms for| thought always that jail terms for tech bosses was important, not because tech bosses will ever be end “p because tech bosses will ever be end up going to jail but it focuses their minds and what is really needed is a change of corporate culture at these big institutions. two decades of social media, nothing has really changed, from the dorms to the board rooms they've run their companies and things need to change. i see the harm is that molly saw. 0ne i see the harm is that molly saw. one of the problems with telling this story is it's really hard to communicate. i can't show you those harms on television, you are not allowed to show them, papers can't print them, but i've seen them, the coroner saw the harms during the inquest, and every single person there thought they were appalling with one exception and that was the witness that came from silicon valley, that matters and give evidence under oath and she was the only person i've ever come across who barring a couple of exceptions said the content that molly had seen was safe. while there are executives in big tech platforms who still think that then children are still in danger when they are online. that in danger when they are online. at the start of this you were rather a lone voice and it's been a long journey. what has it been like for you and what has it been like for you and what has it been like for you as a family? it’s you and what has it been like for you as a family?— you and what has it been like for you as a family? it's been difficult but it was always _ you as a family? it's been difficult but it was always going _ you as a family? it's been difficult but it was always going to - you as a family? it's been difficult but it was always going to be - but it was always going to be difficult because at the heart of this story is the loss of our lovely, adorable molly will stop but there have been so many other people who have supported this. so many people who think it's important that the world should be safer for children. if you think of nspcc research that was commissioned last year, the university of swansea studies showed that three quarters of young people had seen online harms by the time they were 1a, and 83% of those, this is the significant thing, 83% of young people who had seen those online harms didn't go searching for it, it found them. while the platform algorithms are feeding harms to our children we have to do something. you've taken on an extraordinary and terrible loss and turned into concrete action. do you think molly would be proud of what you have achieved? i would be proud of what you have achieved? ., , a, , ., would be proud of what you have achieved? .,, a, , ., , achieved? i hope molly would be roud but achieved? i hope molly would be proud but there _ achieved? i hope molly would be proud but there are _ achieved? i hope molly would be proud but there are so _ achieved? i hope molly would be proud but there are so many - achieved? i hope molly would be i proud but there are so many other voices who arejoining proud but there are so many other voices who are joining this because sadly in the main because they've also lost children and we hope that this step in the online safety bill will mean there are fewer of those families fewer stories like molly's in the future.— in the future. ian, thank you so much for _ in the future. ian, thank you so much for coming _ in the future. ian, thank you so much for coming and _ in the future. ian, thank you so much for coming and sharing i in the future. ian, thank you so i much for coming and sharing your story and talking about your tireless campaigning in the studio this morning. tireless campaigning in the studio this morning-— now, this week keir starmer�*s been on his travels, trying to show the world that he's notjust a leader of the opposition, he's an international statesman and a prime minister—in—waiting. in the middle of the week he was in the hague, to push his plans to crack down on immigration, with strong vows to "smash the gangs", by working more closely with the eu. this weekend he's been in canada, hanging out with like—minded leaders on the left. there's the kodak moment with justin trudeau. tomorrow he's in france to meet president macron. well, today, i'm joined by pat mcfadden, who's just got a newjob as labour's shadow minister for the cainet 0ffice, which means he can be a general mr fixit man for keir starmer — and run his election campaign. a very big job. i said at the start of the programme you've been described as the most powerful labour politician no one had really heard of. i hope you don't take offence to that. but do you think you are? i offence to that. but do you think ou are? ., �* ~' offence to that. but do you think ouare? .,�* ~'., , you are? i don't think anybody in opposition _ you are? i don't think anybody in opposition is _ you are? i don't think anybody in opposition is powerful. - you are? i don't think anybody in opposition is powerful. the - you are? i don't think anybody in j opposition is powerful. the point you are? i don't think anybody in i opposition is powerful. the point is to change that. in opposition is you can only talk. in government you can do so. i don't mind who has heard of me or not but it's the notion of somebody being in opposition and powerful that i struggle to get kozai 0k, powerful that i struggle to get kozai ok, let's talk about what you might do if you do wind power. labour has been talking a lot about the eu in the last couple of days and working with institutions to try to combat particularly the problem of migration but was a voter who chose to leave the eu meant to think when they here your shadow foreign secretary say closer links with the eu are a priority for labour? brute secretary say closer links with the eu are a priority for labour? we are not aoian eu are a priority for labour? we are not going to — eu are a priority for labour? we are not going to rerun _ eu are a priority for labour? we are not going to rerun the _ eu are a priority for labour? we are not going to rerun the brexit - not going to rerun the brexit argument. we left the eu. the task of the country is to make the best future we can outside the eu but that doesn't mean everything stays as it is. so we want to have an aduu as it is. so we want to have an adult and positive relationship with the eu. we want britain to be as powerful as it can around the world. we are leading members of nato and we are permanent members of the un security council. we've got considerable soft power, cultural power, around the world. we've got to use all these things for the best benefit of the country and the things that we believe in. truth? benefit of the country and the things that we believe in. why does that mean making _ things that we believe in. why does that mean making the _ things that we believe in. why does that mean making the eu _ things that we believe in. why does that mean making the eu a - things that we believe in. why does that mean making the eu a top - that mean making the eu a top priority to come to use david lammy�*s face. to win a majority you have to win seats like bolsover, dudley north, where the leave vote was about 70% and voters will hear you say the eu is a top priority, closer links with the institution they wanted to leave. doesn't that send people a message that actually you are snubbing their desire? it shouldn't. we are not going to rerun the argument. i’m shouldn't. we are not going to rerun the argument-— the argument. i'm asking what impression _ the argument. i'm asking what impression that _ the argument. i'm asking what impression that gives - the argument. i'm asking what impression that gives to - the argument. i'm asking whatl impression that gives to voters, the argument. i'm asking what i impression that gives to voters, if labour wants closer links with the eu, rightly or wrongly brexit voters might think you are going against what we told our politicians to do. we are not doing that but we still have important values that coincide with those countries. if you look at russia's invasion of ukraine, some of the things we were arguing about in recent years seem pretty pale by comparison. we've got an important trading relationship. we've got some common problems. it makes sense to have an adult and positive relationship. let's give an example from just a few days ago. the uk has just decided to rejoin the horizon university research project. that's a sensible thing to do. it doesn't mean you have to rejoin the european union but it does mean there are areas where you can work together for site but with working together normally in politics and diplomacy there is a quid pro quo, you know that very well. keir starmer this week has been pushing an immigration plan saying he would get a returns deal with the eu and that might involve the uk accepting a share of migrants that arrive on the continent.— migrants that arrive on the continent. ., ,., ., , . continent. labour has re'ected the tories' continent. labour has re'ected the torres- claims * continent. labour has re'ected the tories' claims that i continent. labour has rejected the tories' claims that means - continent. labour has rejected the | tories' claims that means 100,000 extra people would come. but would you put a limit on the number of extra migrants from the continent that labour would be prepared to accept? brute that labour would be prepared to acce-t? ~ that labour would be prepared to acce-t? . ., that labour would be prepared to accet? . ., ., , accept? we said two important things in recent days- _ accept? we said two important things in recent days. keir— accept? we said two important things in recent days. keir starmer- accept? we said two important things in recent days. keir starmer and i accept? we said two important things in recent days. keir starmer and my i in recent days. keir starmer and my colleague yvette cooper the shadow home secretary went to visit euro poll and the first thing was we need better international crime—fighting cooperation on people smuggling gangs that organise this operation. the second thing was we need to do something to tackle this backlog. we are spending £2 billion a year on hotel accommodation all over the country, these are the... mr; country, these are the... my question _ country, these are the... my question this _ country, these are the... my question this morning is whether you put a limit on the number of migrants that a labour government would be willing to accept from the continent as part of a returns deal, the returns deal that your party says you want, in order to be able to better confront the problem. would you put a limit on the number? there are limits and controls right now, people smugglers are basically half running the asylum system by deciding who comes on these boats so we've got to crackdown on that. in terms of discussions with the eu, there's been a lot of nonsense talked about this in recent days, we are not going to be taking part in an eu wide scheme involving eu member states because we are not a member states because we are not a member states because we are not a member state state. that member states because we are not a member state state.— member state state. that you have said ou member state state. that you have said you would _ member state state. that you have said you would negotiate _ member state state. that you have said you would negotiate with i said you would negotiate with individual countries and i'm asking a clear question, you can say the tories' claims were nonsense and that's your prerogative but i'm asking a clear question, what a labour government a limit on the number of migrants that you might be willing to accept negotiations? iam not i am not sure it will work like that. you imply there is negotiation about numbers and quotas. what my colleague, the shadow home secretary, has talked about is family reunion, children who may have strong links with people here. those people may or may not have a legitimate claim. they are coming on small boats. that is the kind of thing we are talking about, rather than taking part in an eu wide quota scheme. for than taking part in an eu wide quota scheme. ., ., , ., ., , ., scheme. for a return steal, do you acce at scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that — scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that there _ scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that there will _ scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that there will be _ scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that there will be a - scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that there will be a quid i scheme. for a return steal, do you accept that there will be a quid pro quo? the was we'll be hearing you saying you will not put a limit on numbers. . . saying you will not put a limit on numbers. , , ., numbers. -- viewers will be hearing. we are talking _ numbers. -- viewers will be hearing. we are talking about _ numbers. -- viewers will be hearing. we are talking about a _ numbers. -- viewers will be hearing. we are talking about a child - numbers. -- viewers will be hearing. we are talking about a child with i we are talking about a child with strong family links. not we will take that many can you take that many. that is not the kind of negotiation we want to have. we have had a taster — negotiation we want to have. we have had a taster of — negotiation we want to have. we have had a taster of the _ negotiation we want to have. we have had a taster of the election _ had a taster of the election campaign. you will be in charge of the election campaign for labour. we have been able to get us sticky pulls on the document you will use as a menu to get proposals for the manifesto. let's see if we can get you to say if some of them might make the cut. in the document you have committed to delivering hs2 infill. the government appears to be wobbling that with the labour manifesto explicitly commit to the full original route of high speed rail being built? brute full original route of high speed rail being built?— full original route of high speed rail being built? full original route of high speed rail bein built? . ., ., , rail being built? we want to see the railway being _ rail being built? we want to see the railway being built. _ rail being built? we want to see the railway being built. it _ rail being built? we want to see the railway being built. it looks- rail being built? we want to see the railway being built. it looks as i railway being built. it looks as though the government is questioning this. share though the government is questioning this. �* , ., there though the government is questioning this.- there are _ though the government is questioning this.- there are revised i this. are you? there are revised costs. this. are you? there are revised costs- when _ this. are you? there are revised costs. when it _ this. are you? there are revised costs. when it started _ this. are you? there are revised costs. when it started a - this. are you? there are revised costs. when it started a price i this. are you? there are revised| costs. when it started a price tag of £30 billion was put on it. those prices have not been raised since 2019. we have had quite a lot of information since then. i want to see what happens in the coming months. we want to see the railway being built. like everything else we have to look at the cost. you being built. like everything else we have to look at the cost.— have to look at the cost. you will not commit _ have to look at the cost. you will not commit right _ have to look at the cost. you will not commit right now _ have to look at the cost. you will not commit right now to - have to look at the cost. you will not commit right now to building j have to look at the cost. you will i not commit right now to building the full route on hs too, that is clear. i want to see the costs and make the commitment after that. b, i want to see the costs and make the commitment after that. b. lat i want to see the costs and make the commitment after that.— commitment after that. a lot of aeo . le commitment after that. a lot of people are _ commitment after that. a lot of people are truly _ commitment after that. a lot of people are truly desperate i commitment after that. a lot of | people are truly desperate about commitment after that. a lot of i people are truly desperate about the holes in social care for the elderly and most vulnerable in a country. can you permit the manifesto will have a publicly funded and free at the point of use national care service which the shadow health secretary says he wants? irate service which the shadow health secretary says he wants? we want a national care — secretary says he wants? we want a national care service _ secretary says he wants? we want a national care service but _ secretary says he wants? we want a national care service but i _ secretary says he wants? we want a national care service but i am i secretary says he wants? we want a national care service but i am not i national care service but i am not sure you have described it in the way i would. this is about standards across a very varied industry, not about nationalising everything in the care industry but ensuring it operates to good standards with properly paid staff who are treated well so people in that care service are looked after as well as possible. that is what we mean by a national care service. i possible. that is what we mean by a national care service.— national care service. i would love to see publicly _ national care service. i would love to see publicly owned, _ national care service. i would love to see publicly owned, publicly i to see publicly owned, publicly funded, free at the point of use. i do not think he will funded, free at the point of use. i do not think he will go round and rationalise every care home. interesting you say that. what about a triple lock on pensions? it keeps pensions rising either with inflation earnings or 2.5%, whichever is higher. it will be very expensive for the government this year. you'll colleague angela rayner did not commit to keeping this earlier this week. will the triple lock be in the labour manifesto? mi lock be in the labour manifesto? all of lock be in the labour manifesto? fill of these things, the triple lock, the pension is quite a lot over the last decade or so, all of the big ticket items will depend on the state of the economy at the time. the manifest will take into account when the election comes, probably in about a year's time.— about a year's time. labour is not committed _ about a year's time. labour is not committed to _ about a year's time. labour is not committed to keeping _ about a year's time. labour is not committed to keeping the - about a year's time. labour is not committed to keeping the triple l about a year's time. labour is not i committed to keeping the triple lock at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock at this stage-— at this stage. committed to keeping the tri - le at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock _ at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock now. _ at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock now. what _ at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock now. what we - at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock now. what we had . at this stage. committed to keeping the triple lock now. what we had to | the triple lock now. what we had to say about their future parliament will depend when we make the manifesto. will depend when we make the manifeste— manifesto. the labour party conference _ manifesto. the labour party conference is _ manifesto. the labour party conference is next _ manifesto. the labour party conference is next month. i manifesto. the labour party conference is next month. a manifesto. the labour party - conference is next month. a big week for the party, especially given where things are in the runway to the general election. members around the general election. members around the country will be packing their backpacks to go. they have been starting to receive conference programmes through the post this week, we understand. i want to show people the cover of the conference programme. there is your leaderjust fair. where did keir starmer get inspiration for the cover of the programme? i inspiration for the cover of the programme?— inspiration for the cover of the programme? inspiration for the cover of the rouramme? . , ., ~ . programme? i really cannot. a nice photograph. _ programme? i really cannot. a nice photograph. i _ programme? i really cannot. a nice photograph, i think _ programme? i really cannot. a nice photograph, i think he _ programme? i really cannot. a nice photograph, i think he looks - programme? i really cannot. a nice photograph, i think he looks good l programme? i really cannot. a nice | photograph, i think he looks good in that. do photograph, i think he looks good in that. ~' photograph, i think he looks good in that. ~ ., . that. do you think it was from a similar thing — that. do you think it was from a similar thing with _ that. do you think it was from a similar thing with their - that. do you think it was from a similar thing with their 1997 - similar thing with their 1997 manifesto with tony blair on the front? you used to work for him. there has been mischief made about the blairites controlling keir starmer. i am sure you will say that is not the situation. you have worked for them both, what is the difference?— difference? they are different --eole. i difference? they are different people- i find _ difference? they are different people. i find all— difference? they are different people. i find all this - difference? they are different people. i find all this thing . difference? they are different. people. i find all this thing about blairite stomach i think after 16 years, it a new lexicon is needed. keir starmer is his own man. if that stuff is wrong. _ keir starmer is his own man. if that stuff is wrong, what _ keir starmer is his own man. if that stuff is wrong, what is _ keir starmer is his own man. if that stuff is wrong, what is the - stuff is wrong, what is the difference between the two men? different people for different times. ., different people for different times. . , ~ different people for different times. . , ,, . , ., . times. that sounds like a slogan. who is more _ times. that sounds like a slogan. who is more fun? _ times. that sounds like a slogan. who is more fun? they _ times. that sounds like a slogan. who is more fun? they are - times. that sounds like a slogan. who is more fun? they are both. times. that sounds like a slogan. - who is more fun? they are both very aood who is more fun? they are both very good man- — who is more fun? they are both very good man- i— who is more fun? they are both very good man. i have _ who is more fun? they are both very good man. i have worked _ who is more fun? they are both very good man. i have worked closely - who is more fun? they are both very| good man. i have worked closely with them both. what they have in common is more important than their differences. what they have in common is they really want a party thatis common is they really want a party that is facing the public rather than talking to itself. it has not always been true in recent years. it will be a change labour party and in the nick of time. the thought of a fixed term with the conservatives after their mess of the last 13 years does not bear thinking about. we have got to —— we have got our act together considerably. keir starmer has change the focus of the labour party to look more outlets. what he wants answered at conference is, if not the tories then why us? that is what this year's conference will be bad. taste that is what this year's conference will be bad-— that is what this year's conference will be bad. we will be speaking to keir starmer _ will be bad. we will be speaking to keir starmer at _ will be bad. we will be speaking to keir starmer at the _ will be bad. we will be speaking to keir starmer at the party _ keir starmer at the party conference. well, it's getting close to 10 o'clock. remember at the start of the show we asked the foreign secretary his response to the russell brand scandal. we have to be particularly careful when we listen to the voices of people who are relatively powerless, because we, i think, collectively have missed opportunities to do the right thing and intervene much, much earlier. and lots of you have been getting in touch. jonathan evans says he no longer believes the tories. he says, we have increased migrants crossing in boats. there is no growth in our economy. the country wants an election now. martin axford got in touch about libya. he said, all european countries have a responsibility to sort this or suffer the consequences, ie migrants crossing the med. and on foreign aid, trevor davis says, i'm sorry but charity begins at home — let's get our own house in order before we try and sort the world out. all sorts of things on your minds. really interesting responses to our conversations this morning. jane, what to you think of what pat mcfadden was saying? it is a big political autumn, conferences coming fast. labour has been ahead for ages. people are angry about things but is labour really on course, do you think? this but is labour really on course, do you think?— you think? as ever with all politicians, _ you think? as ever with all politicians, you _ you think? as ever with all politicians, you do - you think? as ever with all politicians, you do not - you think? as ever with all| politicians, you do not ever you think? as ever with all - politicians, you do not ever get a straight answer to anything. i understand why they are getting into an election when they do not want to frighten the horses, feeling that somebody might not vote for them because of it. there was a poll today that a third of adults are now classed as the pedis justice. —— super distrusters. the challenge for both parties next year will be voter apathy. d0 for both parties next year will be voter apathy-— for both parties next year will be voter apathy. for both parties next year will be voteraath . ,, , ., voter apathy. do you think people do not trust? people _ voter apathy. do you think people do not trust? people do _ voter apathy. do you think people do not trust? people do not _ voter apathy. do you think people do not trust? people do not trust. - voter apathy. do you think people do not trust? people do not trust. they| not trust? people do not trust. they are riaht not trust? people do not trust. they are right not — not trust? people do not trust. they are right not to. _ not trust? people do not trust. they are right not to. you _ not trust? people do not trust. they are right not to. you have _ not trust? people do not trust. they are right not to. you have seen - not trust? people do not trust. they are right not to. you have seen the. are right not to. you have seen the government feathering the nest of its cronies during covid. they are looting taxpayers money. this is the phenomenon. we have set up global financial systems. phenomenon. we have set up global financialsystems. it phenomenon. we have set up global financial systems. it does not matter which party comes into power, there is no difference between the parties. there is no difference between the arties. ., ~' , . there is no difference between the arties. ., ~ , . . parties. you think they are all the same? they _ parties. you think they are all the same? they cannot _ parties. you think they are all the same? they cannot be _ parties. you think they are all the same? they cannot be anything l parties. you think they are all the - same? they cannot be anything other than the same- _ same? they cannot be anything other than the same. that _ same? they cannot be anything other than the same. that is _ same? they cannot be anything other than the same. that is the _ same? they cannot be anything other than the same. that is the whole - than the same. that is the whole issue. ~ ., than the same. that is the whole issue. ~ . . ,, ., . issue. what about the snp? you are on the side — issue. what about the snp? you are on the side of _ issue. what about the snp? you are on the side of scottish _ on the side of scottish independence.- on the side of scottish independence. on the side of scottish inde endence. ,, , independence. the snp is the same. the t to independence. the snp is the same. they try to do _ independence. the snp is the same. they try to do a _ independence. the snp is the same. they try to do a social _ independence. the snp is the same. they try to do a social democratic i they try to do a social democratic thing and still trying to keep alive with prescriptions and education policy. they are being pushed into that model by the dictates of the whole kind of financial structure. you have been around politics a lot. you have been around politics a lot. you describe yourself as a last millennium. to think it is fair that the parties are the same? iunlith the parties are the same? with the first ast the parties are the same? with the first past the _ the parties are the same? with the first past the post _ the parties are the same? with the first past the post system - the parties are the same? with the first past the post system they i the parties are the same? with the | first past the post system they have to agree _ first past the post system they have to agree on the same kind of issues. we need _ to agree on the same kind of issues. we need more election reform. as opposed _ we need more election reform. as opposed to — we need more election reform. as opposed to talking about different politicians. labour is getting its act together. keir starmer is my local_ act together. keir starmer is my local mp — act together. keir starmer is my local mp. ~ ., , act together. keir starmer is my local mp. ~ ., local mp. mine as well. i saw him in a tracksuit- — local mp. mine as well. i saw him in a tracksuit. apparently _ local mp. mine as well. i saw him in a tracksuit. apparently not. - local mp. mine as well. i saw him in a tracksuit. apparently not. he i a tracksuit. apparently not. he has a tracksuit. apparently not. he has a doppelganger, i understand. summer in camden is— a doppelganger, i understand. summer in camden is a— a doppelganger, i understand. summer in camden is a keir— a doppelganger, i understand. summer in camden is a keir starmer— in camden is a keir starmer doppelganger. i in camden is a keir starmer doppelganger-_ in camden is a keir starmer doppelganger. in camden is a keir starmer do melaner. ., . , doppelganger. i would abolish the lottery system- — doppelganger. i would abolish the lottery system. 650 _ doppelganger. i would abolish the lottery system. 650 names i doppelganger. i would abolish the lottery system. 650 names are i doppelganger. i would abolish the i lottery system. 650 names are drawn out of _ lottery system. 650 names are drawn out of the _ lottery system. 650 names are drawn out of the hat but that is your mps. another_ out of the hat but that is your mps. another lottery, 40 names and another— another lottery, 40 names and another lottery from that, the prime minislen _ another lottery from that, the prime minister. that would crash the lobby syslem _ minister. that would crash the lobby system and crush all the nepotism, all the _ system and crush all the nepotism, all the networks. you would have to have an _ all the networks. you would have to have an education system. do all the networks. you would have to have an education system.— all the networks. you would have to have an education system. do you put ourself have an education system. do you put yourself forward _ have an education system. do you put yourself forward for _ have an education system. do you put yourself forward for the _ have an education system. do you put yourself forward for the lottery? i yourself forward for the lottery? no, no. everybody would have a lottery— no, no. everybody would have a lottery ticket. that would make it incumbent on society to have a proper— incumbent on society to have a proper education system. it sounds like -- _ proper education system. it sounds like —— things like science and specifics _ like —— things like science and specifics |_ like -- things like science and specifics-— specifics. i do not necessarily think that _ specifics. i do not necessarily think that is _ specifics. i do not necessarily think that is the _ specifics. i do not necessarily think that is the best - specifics. i do not necessarily think that is the best way. i specifics. i do not necessarily| think that is the best way. we specifics. i do not necessarily i think that is the best way. we have all won a lottery — think that is the best way. we have all won a lottery ticket _ think that is the best way. we have all won a lottery ticket by - think that is the best way. we have all won a lottery ticket by having i all won a lottery ticket by having the three of you with us at the table this morning. your next series of crime is on when?— of crime is on when? thursday, i believe. huge thanks to my gang at the desk this week — irvine welsh, jane moore, and nimco ali. and thanks most of all to you for watching, after a week when our politicians have been reminded that it is hard to control events at home, it is even trickier to respond to and shape events further afield. and there's been a definite taste in that battle on immigration of the fights in the election to come. we'll be here every week doing our very best to make sense of it all. in a second, i'll be joining paddy o'connell. iam hoping i am hoping he will waive today. we will be together shortly for our weekend newscast. you can catch that on bbc sounds. you can always catch up on anything you missed here on iplayer. and if that isn't enough, the next episode of our series, state of chaos, is on iplayer, and bbc two from tomorrow. plenty to be getting on with. thanks for being with us. i look forward to being with you next sunday, same time, same place. goodbye for now. good morning. it's sunday, it's ten o'clock. welcome back to politics north west. live from london. this is bbc news. the british actor and comedian russell brand is accused of rape, sexual assault and emotional abuse. he denies the claims. these are live pictures from derna, where rows among survivors in libya's flood—ravaged city as authorities in the east of the country blame nature for the disaster. the president of the european commission, ursula von der leyen and italy's prime minister, giorgia meloni, visit the italian island of lampedusa, as thousands of migrants arrive on the island. the comedian russell brand has been accused of rape, sexual assaults and emotional abuse over a seven—year period at the height of his fame. the details are contained in a joint report by the sunday times, the times and the channel 4 programme dispatches. mr brand denies all the allegations. our correspondent lizo mzimba has the latest — and a warning some viewers may find details in his report upsetting. over the course of the evening, some of my accoutrements could make their way onto your body. laughter. in the late 20005 and early 2010s, russell brand was one of britain's best—known faces... announcer: russell brand! ..famous as a comedian and presenter on both sides of the atlantic...

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