now on bbc news, political thinking with nick robinson. hello and welcome to political thinking, a conversation with, rather than the news interrogation of, someone who shapes our political thinking about what has shaped theirs. faith and politics shouldn't mix, many argue. but not my guest this week. shabana mahmood, the most senior muslim labour mp and now labour's shadowjustice secretary. in the weeks since october the 7th, she and so many people she represents have found the events in gaza particularly painful. but what has made it particularly difficult for her is channelling the anger, the sense of frustration, that many muslims feel that keir starmer isn't saying what they want to hear said. shabana mahmood, welcome to political thinking. thank you. you have found yourself at the centre of arguments about how britain, how the labour party, should respond to the awful events now in gaza. how has it felt personally for you? a very good question. i have to say i feel uncomfortable talking about the personal side of it, if i'm very honest, because there's something a bit morally compromising about compromising something a bit morally compromising about talking about personal impact here, when the tragedy that's unfolding in gaza is so stark and so horrendous, and the events of october the 7th as well, this huge loss of life. i sort of feel it's not really about me. i know why you're asking the question, i am a politician and we have to make political decisions, and they have a personal impact. i ask partly because you put a statement out soon after the hamas attacks on october the 7th. you talked about being deeply concerned by rising anti—semitism and islamophobia. you said we must never allow hatred to flourish. and then you appealed to everyone to stand together and extend an arm of friendship to neighbours and across all faiths. so it affects you because, like it or not, you're seen partly through the prism of your faith. absolutely. and that impacts on the politics of it, both at home, for me, and also the approach to what's happening abroad. i believe so strongly in the need for communities to stand together. and as somebody of a faith minority, and a faith minority that has a sense of personal connection to the events that are unfolding in gaza, it's really important to me to be able to advocate for what people are feeling, why it means so much to them, why the absolute desperation we all feel, to see an end to the fighting, is felt so strongly. but also to try to hold communities at home together as well, because, just as british muslims are feeling a very strong sense of pain at what's unfolding, so too are britishjews, and we are all british citizens together. it's interesting to hear you use that word, pain. i want to ask a deliberately naive question. because there will be some people who say, "why? why is this a cause of such pain?" why isn't the loss of life in syria or in yemen, the abuse of human rights in saudi arabia, all over the arab world? why this? i think it is the holy land, i find myself having to explain this to many of my own friends and colleagues who have known me for a long time, who know that these issues are important but maybe don't necessarily understand what sits behind it. i guess the best i can tell you is, for the people of the three abrahamic faiths, christianity, judaism and islam, this place, this part of the world, holds some of our holiest sites. you know, the al aqsa mosque, that compound is the third holiest site in islam. things that happen over there feel very close. there's a very deep sense of religious heritage, cultural heritage. people have friends and family in the region. now, the problem with choosing to act, and perhaps you have not much choice in truth, but as a spokesperson for people of muslim faith, and particularly in your constituency, is of course then you're criticised for not going far enough, for not feeling the pain enough. there were protests outside your constituency office your constituency office with placards saying you've got blood on your hands because you've not voted for a motion in the commons calling for a ceasefire. that must be, to use your word, painfulforyou. oh, it is difficult. and it's... it's very difficult when you feel a wider sense of responsibility to yourfaith community in the broadest sense. at the end of the day, i'm elected by the people of ladywood. they are my first and foremost concern as a politician. but there is no denying, and i have never sought resile and i have never sought to resile from or delegitimise the sense that a broader range of people have a sense of connection to me and to other british muslims in public life. whether you want to or not, you end up just having to accept that you have this broader role to play, and it is something that i've accepted. it means a lot to me. and then it's very difficult to find yourself in a position where you're making quite challenging and difficult decisions and actually it's not enough. if you like, you are letting people down, even though that is absolutely not your own intention. and that's a personal challenge. but there's hatred as well, isn't there, that has been unleashed in this conflict, on all sides. a conservative mp, mike freer, who represents a constituency with a big jewish population in finchley, essentially concluded it was all too much for him, that he had been threatened too often, that the hatred and anger that he was subject to, even if he could cope with it, he didn't want his husband to have to cope with it, and his family and friends. do you empathise with that? do you understand why he took that decision? i was heartbroken, reading his statement. we all have families, we are all human beings, we all have our places of sanctuary and safety, and it's very difficult as working politicians if you feel like you can't do yourjob because your security situation has taken a turn for the worse, and also if your family are affected. i mean, on a human level i felt nothing but heartbreak for the situation he's found himself in, and i know that that is not unique to him. unfortunately there are many members of parliament, i think, who have in the last few months faced really quite severe security challenges. it's completely unacceptable, and, you know, the people that are doing that, they are not people that are interested in a peaceful resolution. they are not people that really have the best interests of either of these two communities at heart. they are, as i've described it in recent weeks, every baddie in town hasjumped on this bandwagon and they are manipulating this issue, this war, this cause for their own ends. and it's completely unacceptable. politicians have to be able to make decisions and do theirjob properly. what i found shocking, when i interviewed him for the today programme, is hearing him describe his life, the advice that he got, which is that he should check for an escape route, he should look under the car. he chose to wear a stab vest. is that what politics has come to? is that what mps, notjust him, are having to do now? i'm afraid for a shockingly large number of members of parliament, that is now daily life. the sense of, i guess, almost invasion, that you can't move around as safely and securely as you need to. that is very challenging. i hope there's a way of getting back to something like normality, but i fear that in this sort of era, social media, the ability to amplify extremism so readily, it might not come back. let's talk about you and your roots and what shaped your values. your parents came from pakistan... we're kashmiri in origin. ah! laughter. important distinction. i won't get into partition politics, as it were. talking of controversial international stories. that's a whole other podcast series. but we are kashmiri in origin, but we find ourselves in pakistan administered kashmir. yeah, and was politics talked much about at the kitchen table or on the sofa? yes, ifeel like politics has always been part of my life. not in the context of something i wanted to do. my life's dream was to be kavanagh qc. i wanted to be a barrister, that was my thing. but politics was something that was normal in our household. my dad in particular was very involved with the local labour party. and for quite a long time, actually, almost a decade, he was the chairman of the birmingham labour party. and he was, he is, someone who many people in our local community where we live, often turn to for resolution of personal disputes. he is seen as a bit of an honest broker and pragmatic. so you had an apprenticeship, in effect! laughter. i feel like i've definitely been shaped by those aspects of my dad's character and personality, but also my mum too. your route to becoming kavanagh qc was to go to oxford. and how different a world did that feel, when you arrived, the city of dreaming spires? oh, ithinkifelt like a bit of an alien. i felt really different. birmingham is a very diverse city. we actually lived in saudi arabia for the very early part of my life because of my dad's job. and when we returned to the uk i was in a junior school where there was only one other black student, who was my best friend at school. and my twin brother, who was the only other asian. and so i got very used to thinking there's not very many of us here, and that was different and something to get used to. my secondary school actually was full of people that looked just like me. so it was totally different. it was the absolute flip side of that experience. but when i got to oxford, it was my first ever experience in life where, for some of the people i met, i was literally the first muslim that they had ever met. and it occurred to me that for those people, everything they know about muslims will come from me. and as an 18, 19—year—old, honestly, i felt that as extreme pressure. i thought that was a real burden. that's fascinating. you already took a sort of responsibility, to be a symbol of, not a spokesperson for, but a symbol of the muslim community. yeah, i didn't ask for it, but when you are the only one of your kind in a room, you suddenly, you know, you are alive to it immediately. but how was that met? was it met with curiosity — "oh, i don't know people like you." or hostility? mostly curiosity. and mostly my experience was people never asked with malicious intent, but with a huge lack of knowledge. and around that time you follow your dad into politics. you decide you're going to run for parliament. and when you get there, a familiar face follows you into the house of commons from your oxford days. yes, i think you're referring to the man who is now prime minister. yeah. so, you were at college together? we were, we were both at lincoln college oxford. he was the year above me at lincoln. and is it true that he voted for you? i knew you were going to ask that! yes, i believe it is. you were running for effectively the student union president. yes, jcr president, that's right. what's called thejcr president. that's right. and rishi sunak was on my target list of voters in that election. i was mobilising the geek vote and he and i were both very firmly of the geek extraction at college. and i had him down in my yes column, and i'm pretty sure he voted for me. i want to be clear, there was actually a category called the geek vote, was there? for me, yes. i was up against some very popular candidates in that election and i thought the quiet geek is going to win the day, that was my entire election strategy back then. of course, you're now a leading figure in the campaign to get him out of downing street, to get keir starmer into downing street. but at the last election you had effectively chosen to sit this out. you were campaigning for labour of course, you were campaigning for yourself, but not for your then leaderjeremy corbyn. what made you sit that out? well, i sat it out in terms of front bench politics. jeremy called me after the election. i had just been running yvette�*s campaign, i was co—chair of that leadership campaign. yvette cooper, yeah. yvette cooper's campaign. and i had a call and he offered me a position in the shadow cabinet. i think he wanted me to keep going with the shadow chief secretary to the treasury role. and i hadn't really thought about it but my instinctive answerjust kind of captured it, ijust said to him that i'd be miserable, i'd make him miserable, and it was probably better for both of us that i don't serve. we had differences on the economy and other policy issues. i just felt that the whole of that project, i couldn't in all conscience be a serving member and say the direct opposite of what i think. everybody makes compromises in politics, you have to, that's how politics works, but i felt that that compromise would mean every day saying the direct opposite of what i think needs to happen. and i didn't think that was going to work out well for anyone. it's fascinating that you say that because it seems to me too rarely do people acknowledge that serving in the front line of politics is inevitably a compromise. you're working with a team of people, you're not necessarily going to agree on everything with them. how painful is that? i mean, these last few months for you must have been very difficult. everyone knew that you felt incredibly passionately about gaza, that your constituents felt passionately about gaza. and there was a lot of criticism of the labour leader for not echoing that passion. has it been difficult? yes, of course. at the top end of politics, in the shadow cabinet or in the cabinet, there has to be room, i think, both for honest conversations, but then also it is incredibly important to have a sense of collective responsibility. that matters both in government and in opposition as well. it's a doctrine i believe in. i don't think that collective responsibility requires everybody�*s neurons in their brain to fire in exactly the same way always. i think diversity of thought and perspective is really important. politics is richer and better for it. but fundamentally, obviously once a decision is made, if you're in the shadow cabinet or you're serving on the front bench, you need to be able to fall in line behind the overall decision. you say you believe in honesty. and it was widely reported that you were indeed very honest in the shadow cabinet, that after keir starmer gave an interview i suspect he regrets, in which he stated, maybe implied that israel had the right to withhold power and water from gaza, you said he had caused huge offence in the muslim community. well, i'm not going to lift the veil on private discussions in shadow cabinet. i don't think that's appropriate. but it wasn't a good time. no, and there's no getting away from the fact that it is true objectively, and on every other measure, that that was not a good moment. and keir of course did then go on to clarify his comments. i think miscommunications in politics do happen. it's important to offer that clarification. and there's policy behind this too, as well, of course, which, as well, of course, which is, you and others wanted to call for a ceasefire. and labour didn't call for a ceasefire. look, i wanted a ceasefire then. i want a ceasefire now. i think it's impossible to look at footage of dead children being pulled from the rubble, knowing that they were crying out and nobody could get to them, and not want this nightmare to stop, not want the fighting to stop. the death toll i think speaks for itself, the sheer number of children, 11,000 children have died in gaza. i think that tells its own story. so you can call it a ceasefire or a truce. you can use the words permanent or sustainable or immediate. in the end what you're describing is a desire to see the fighting stop. and that is a desire i and millions of people share and believe in. the question is not so much, do you just call for it, but how you actually deliver one. and i wish it were possible simply by calling for it that you could immediately deliver one. i think calling for something has power, by the way. i don't want to suggest that it's not a legitimate thing to do. it has power, it can try and create moral and political pressure to try and bring a ceasefire about, but i think if you are in the actual government or if you are in the shadow government, what you actually have to grapple with and think about is how you deliver a ceasefire, and that is a delicate, difficult diplomatic process and i felt that is what we needed to get behind. if we can get a hearing about what our position is, i think our position is strong and it's in line with notjust calls from the british muslim community, but from people across our community, of every community. is getting a hearing a problem now? i mean, in otherwords, are prices being paid for the earlier position, which means now people have shut their ears to you? i think that there has been a sense of a loss of trust, and i think that needs to be rebuilt. again, that's something that we are all very cognisant of and want to make sure we put that right. we aspire to be a party that can get votes from every part of our country and every community in our country. that has always been the labour way, and that is still the labour way. the new statesman recently wrote that labour has been outflanked by david cameron. that ss foreign secretary he'd gone a lot further, saying that the recognition of palestine as a state should come sooner rather than later. actually, i think david cameron moved on to territory that had been labour party policy for a long time. had been but wasn't now. it is now. and actually david cameron was prime minister in 2014 when under ed miliband we adopted our state recognition policy for the palestinian people. and david cameron was dead against it. so over the years, and i guess from negotiations that have been taking part as a result of this conflict, he has moved on to our position. i think the broadest range of support for the position of recognition of a palestinian state, as a recognition of their inalienable right to self—determination, a right of theirs to be realised that is not in the gift of their neighbour or in the control of their neighbour, i think it's important now that actually, you know, in the tory party and the labour party and across the world there is a growing consensus that we support that right, we will recognise that right in office and we will work with other partners to make it meaningful in the delivery of a 2—state solution. but can it, because we know that the israeli prime minister says forget it, we are not having a 2—state solution. israel's security depends on not having an armed palestinian state next door, either in gaza or in the west bank. it is not going to happen. and at the moment, despite the fact he was a deeply unpopular figure going into this conflict, despite the fact that opinion polls are not good for him, there doesn't seem much challenge to that. well, look, it's obviously an extremely challenging environment in which to make the case for a 2—state solution. and what we lack at the moment i think are partners for peace. so you have on the one hand hamas, who envisage the destruction of 9 million people in israel. and you have, frankly, the prime minister, benjamin netanyahu, ruling it out as well. what i would say is, neither of these are partners for peace as things stand. and we have to urgently find partners for peace because a one—state solution does not make the people of israel safe. it actually condemns them to insecurity and concerns for their safety in perpetuity. and it is an outrage to adopt a position that says that the people of israel can have self—determination but the people of palestine cannot. that is not acceptable and we cannot allow the continued degradation and denigration of the fundamental human rights of the palestinian people. now, you've been clear that you have been pushing, helping, call it what you like, keir starmer, to take a tougher stance on this than he certainly did right at the beginning of this. some people say, look, this is part of a pattern. keir starmer seems to want to define himself by what he is not going to do, by what he doesn't believe in, whether it's gaza, whether it's changing his position on the transgender issue versus women's rights, whether it's 28 billion. we are recording this on the morning that he's about to formally dump that £28 billion promise. what is it about keir starmer that seems to want to keep changing his position? i think we don't want to be making promises that are not deliverable because the circumstances have changed. and i think we have lived through a period of huge political turbulence and i think people forget the economy crashed when liz truss had her short period as prime minister. people felt that in their household incomes and that changed both the economic reality and also the political reality that we would face if we were to win a general election. and when you're faced with a changing situation, you either stick to everything you said before the situation changed and try to say, well, this means i don't change and i am firm on my course. but then you are ultimately proven wrong because you can't do the thing you said you were going to do because the reality has changed. or you level with people, you are honest with them, and you say what you can still do and what you want to deliver, and try and show a path for how you're going to do that, which obviously keir will be setting out very shortly. now, i want to end in a way where we began, which is — yes — politics, but how important is faith to you day to day? what you do, what you say, what you believe. my faith is the most important thing in my life. it's deeply personal. it affects my... i think it affects my disposition in politics rather than the position i take on particular issues. so i don't really see a connection between day to day politics and policy and faith specifically, but faith, you know, shapes my disposition. i was brought up to believe your life is a gift and it's also a test from god. and if you have been lucky and privileged, as i have been, to have a great education, to be able to do a really amazing job, you don't just sit back and think, "oh, great for me, lovely. i won a bit of a life lottery there." you have a duty, you have to account for it, you have to say what you did with it, before god. and that's really important. and that's what calls me to public service. that's how i feel i am trying to show that these things i have been granted and given can be used for good for other people. it's fascinating. it shapes my political disposition, i suppose. it's fascinating to hear you talk about that, because for so long, that phrase that alastair campbell famously used after tony blair talked a bit about his christianity, was, "we don't do god." have we grown out of that? can we now do god again? well, i don't think it was right then, and it's definitely not right now. some of us do god. i always joke with people, don't let the lack of a headscarf fool you, i am in the god squad brigade. i was raised by muslim parents, but i feel like i properly grew up when i knew in my heart, in my soul, that i was no longerjust a muslim because my parents were muslim, but i'm a muslim for myself, because my conscience calls me to god, not my upbringing alone. and that will always be, on a personal level, something that... well, it means the most to me of anything else. shabana mahmood, shadowjustice secretary, thank you so much forjoining me on political thinking. thank you very much. it's fascinating to hear someone talk so openly not just about faith, but the need for compromise in politics. it is a reminder too, that to hold office, with the inevitable compromises that involves, is a whole lot harder than writing 180 characters on social media or painting a slogan on a placard and holding it outside someone�*s constituency office. thanks for watching. hello there. there were some spells of sunshine around on saturday, but hopefully a good bit more of it to come on sunday. but also some outbreaks of rain, so a bit of a mixed picture. and beyond the weekend, it's a fairly mixed picture into next week, with low pressure systems tending to dominate. and after monday, temperatures actually tending to climb. but let's look at all of that in detail. first of all, through the overnight period, we can see we've got fairly wet weather towards parts of eastern england, in towards eastern scotland. elsewhere, a little bit drier with some clear skies. where it's clear we could see some mist and fog. and still a number of showers pushing in towards the west and the south. that wet weather, though, across parts of the north—east of england, into north—eastern scotland, with us first thing on sunday and tracking its way northwards into the northern isles. elsewhere, though, sunday is an improving picture with some decent spells of sunshine and also a few showers coming in on a westerly wind. so by mid—afternoon, much of that heavy rain has cleared. although lingering across parts of the north—east of aberdeenshire and in towards the northern isles. elsewhere, though, avoid the showers and you will see some sunshine and temperatures up to around 10 or 11 degrees. and then through sunday evening and sunday night, we start to see largely dry and clear conditions, and that means it will be colder than overnight saturday into sunday. so this is tomorrow night, sunday night. you can see temperatures there in towns and cities but across parts of northern england and scotland, a touch of frost in the countryside. to monday, low pressure situated to the north—west, and we are dragging in some rather cool air from the north—west. so showers pushing in through parts of scotland, could well be wintry on higher ground, a number of showers in towards northern ireland as well. but elsewhere for much of england and wales, it's a dry and a fine day. it will be a chilly start, mind, a touch of frost here and there, but by the afternoon, temperatures up to 9 or 10 celsius. cooler further north. and then from tuesday onwards we start to see a shift, because the wind is changing direction to more of a south—westerly, so we are dragging in cloudier skies and some outbreaks of rain, but the temperatures will be on the rise. on tuesday it should still be largely dry and sunny across scotland, some showers in the north, but the general trend from tuesday onwards is for cloudier conditions with outbreaks of rain. but you can see on the outlook there, the temperatures will begin to climb and certainly for some reaching the low to mid—teens. that's the forecast for now. n live from washington, this is bbc news. animalfeed and rice — gaza residents resort to desperate measures for food, as the un warns of a looming famine. a missing six—year—old girl is found dead in a bombed—out car in gaza city, days after her pleas for help, drew international attention. and republican rivals for president, donald trump and nikki haley, hit the campaign trail in south carolina, two weeks out from the state's critical primary. hello, i'm carl nasman. we begin in gaza, where the humanitarian crisis is deepening. residents tell the bbc they are surviving on animal feed and rice as food stocks dwindle. the un says 300,000 people living in the isolated north of gaza are largely cut off from aid. more than half the aid missions to northern gaza were denied access last month. that's according to the un's humanitarian coordination agency. mahmoud shalabi from medical aid for palestinians says — the situation there is dire. when it comes to the flour, people are actually using animal feed. however, even the animal feed is starting to get scarce