Transcripts For BBCNEWS Political 20240704

At the age ofjust 28 of causing trouble for causes that she believes passionately in. She is shaped also by her experience, an experience shared by so manyJunior Doctors, of working on the front line of the nhs during the pandemic, of seeing so many people die so traumatically. Emma runswick, welcome to political thinking. Thank you for having me. You are called many things and have been since you took up this post. Militant is one that keeps coming up. Is that a badge of pride or is it an insult from the tabloid press . In some ways, its a badge of pride, because what they mean by militant is organised, consistent. It means that i am one of the many standing up for doctors and patients in this country against a government and an nhs situation which is very, very difficult. So its not something that i might necessarily choose for myself, but im not offended by it in any way. There are other phrases. Ringleader of a cabal of far left medics. Hmm, interesting. I mean, i dont think thats necessarily true. Am i left wing 7 definitely. Are there many of us . Yes, of course there are. Is it surprising that many of us who want to make the world a better place gravitate towards Our Trade Union and professional association, the purpose of which is to enable us to improve our lives and the lives of our patients . I dont think thats surprising. So, yeah, again, im not really bothered by these ideas if thats what the right wing press are going to use to attack me. Welcome. The other is leader of a coup. Now, i suspect you dont like the word coup, but there was a conscious decision, wasnt there, you and a group known as the broad left decide that you can run the bma better than its been run before. You do it under a label, you call yourself red runswick. Emma runswick is your name, but the red is now obvious what you mean. To change it to what . To be what . Yeah, i mean, isay red in hair and red in politics for a reason, because we have learned our lessons from the rest of the Labour Movement that if you organise together, if you collaborate, if you take things that put your negotiating partners under pressure, you do partners under pressure to shift their position, then you are more effective. And that could be anything. So at local level, weve had some success with just causing nuisance, you know, on issues such as making sure that youve got facilities for hot food. At the other end of the spectrum, obviously, weve got nationwide Strike Action to shift the governments position on pay, and unions can act right between those different ends of the spectrum, at every level, in order to improve our lives and improve the lives of the patients we look after. Now, its interesting you talked about causing a nuisance as being one way of getting an important objective. And youve been doing this all your life, havent you . And partly because your parents were trade unionists, are trade unionists. Now retired. Yeah. But very much so. So i was raised in a trade union family. My mum was for a time Deputy President of the pcs union. Both my parents were active, both locally and nationally. Pcs is a civil servants, a Public Officials union . Yes, absolutely. Whats the youngest do you think you were at a protest or a picket line . 0h, in a buggy. You know, i went on the dockers marches when i was in a buggy and there are pictures of me doing that. I was taken to trade union conferences, in some cases actively to be disruptive when they were having arguments about Creche Facilities and allowing parents to be involved. You know, i was crawling down the aisle because they were making the point that they didnt really want children to be there, and they should provide facilities so that parents could be involved. Let me just get this right, your parents sort of let you loose, if you do that to a child. Yeah. In order to make a point. Absolutely. You obviously didnt know you were making a point, presumably, at that age. Yeah, but it was part of the campaign to shift the position in their union, much in the way that ive shifted the positions in mine. Do you have a first memory, then . Because obviously, you wouldnt remember being a toddler. Whats your first memory of being involved in protest or politics . Probably a picket line outside a job centre. There was a dispute going on around Safety Ofjobcentre workers, with screens. Theyd had screens put in because thered been a lot of abuse, a lot of, in some cases, violence. So i went with my parents to that picket line and i was, i dont know, five ish. And i, you know, participated in asking people not to go to work. Did they understand what the. . You know, dont you know theyre on strike today . You know, so i was doing that from very young, just copying, really. You started to organise at school, im told, even in primary school. Yeah, even in primary school. So we had a School Council in primary school, which i was on, but we also had, you know, occasionally issues would come up. So i remember i must have been in year 5 or 6, so 10 or ii, there was an argument on a rainy day. So no kind of premise to this, no Forward Thinking of this event, on a rainy day that we should be let back inside. There were people who hadnt prepared for that, no coats, cold, etc. But we were being fed into lunch in the same way as usual, leaving some people wet and cold. And people were beginning to argue about that. They were getting into arguments with the, you know, dinner support staff, and about three of them got into trouble. They were put on the wall, which was a kind of, you know, a punishment for lunch time. So you did what, aged 10 or ii . Aged 10 or ii, i organised for everybody to also go on the wall and to refuse to go into lunch until they let the three people who had been punished go in as well. We werent. I wasnt about to stand there and let people who were standing up for us and standing up for us all be individually picked out. Now, youve just come from a lgbt event. Youre wearing a t shirt. Yes, a pits and perverts t shirt that recognises lesbians and gays support the miners. Yeah, and was that something that you had to battle about when you were at school . Yeah, so school was a very hostile environment for me from a sexuality perspective. And the shadow of section 28 is a long one. And whilst it had been well repealed by the time i got to secondary school, it was still prominent in the attitudes of teachers and parents. So youre just 28 years old and therefore, you know, thatcher, that section 28 was a long, long time in the past. Well, it was repealed in 2003. This is really recent history. So i went to school, secondary school, in the immediate aftermath of that, in reality. And that policy, you know, the policy of we must not talk about this, was still very prominent. And we had, i mean, not very long after i came out, a parent complained about me and my girlfriend, and the school responded by separating us, banning us from each other� s forum rooms and moving my girlfriend down a maths set so we didnt share any classes, and generally enforcing that, you know, no, you must not spend any time together in school. It must not be at all clear that there is any of that nonsense here. You know, it was an approach that said, no, we must shut this down. Did you win your battle on that . I didnt fight. So my parents, who were always very supportive, were gearing to go to support me. And i decided not to, because homophobia and biphobia was such a prominent problem that frankly, the attitude of the school, the institutional attitude of the school was not the only problem or indeed the primary problem. That brings us to the strikes that youre very heavily involved in at the British Medical Association now. Can we just begin with the ethics of this . Way back in the bmas past, when it was just a professional association, i think the word that was used about strikes and industrial action was unthinkable. It actually said that. How do you think about them now, given that what used to always be called the Hippocratic Oath, i think its now called the declaration of geneva, given that Pledge Doctors make that the health and well being of my patient will be my first consideration. Hmm. So i think the health and well being of my patients and our patients is our first consideration. Were experiencing a Health System in collapse. System where we cannot give the care that patients deserve. And we have choices. We either continue to let that happen around us and we make the individual decisions to leave medicine or the country, as thousands of us are doing, or we make the decision to fight back. And i think the decision to fight back is the much more ethical position. During Strike Action, we ensure the safety of patients who need urgent emergency and critical care. But on the ethics, arent you just redefining that oath . You see, i think what that oath means is the health and well being of my patient, the person in front of me, not the collective. Thats what politics is for. If you want to change the collective, how much money the nhs gets, what sort of Health System we have, thats why we vote in elections. The Hippocratic Oath says, the person in front of me, i will put before anything. So we talk about the principles of Medical Ethics being non maleficence, doing as little harm as possible. Theres always harm associated with health care. All of our drugs have side effects, all of our operations and so on. So doing the least possible harm, doing the most possible benefit, promoting autonomy, and then the fourth principle of Medical Ethics is justice. Right, thats the fourth principle of Medical Ethics. We try and ensure the best care for the vast majority of people, you know, for the largest number of people. And we have choices to make when we are in a situation where actually the care that we give to the person in front of us is never the quality that i would like them to receive. But if theyre in front of you, they want that appointment now. They do, they do. But if we dont do something, then neither they nor the thousands and thousands upon thousands of people who need treatment in the future will have access to it. So we have some choices to make. I agree its a choice, right . But i would rather make the choice that benefits more than benefits one. And you cant leave that to the electorate . I mean. Isnt that what elections are for . So, you know, is that going to happen immediately . Are we going to, you know, since we started this dispute in october 2022, forJunior Doctors, we have shifted the government really significantly. But i dont think we should have to wait till Election Year to try and rescue the service that we provide to patients. 35 was a mistake, wasnt it . Going into a negotiation, asking for something you must have known you hadnt possibly got a chance of getting . I dont think its a mistake to ask for what youve had stolen from you back. You havent had it stolen, have you . Its. I mean, its a pay loss, a progressive pay loss. Are you saying anybody whos had a pay freeze has had their money stolen from them . Why are they worth less than they were in 2008 . Well, because the economy is smaller. But there are some people doing very well out of that. So theres huge numbers of people who have paid for the crisis who never caused it. Theyre not worth any less. They shouldnt be poorer. Do you think 35 was a sensible thing to ask for . I think Pay Restoration� s a completely reasonable ask. Just explain what you mean by Pay Restoration, then, because that was where you began this dispute. It remains something that you dont expect straight away, but you want to make steps towards. Yeah. And never have expected straight away, by the way. What is it and how much would it cost . What is it . So, its the reversal of about 26 real terms pay cut since 2008. Thats been progressive over time. And we think that it would cost about £1. 1 billion in england for Junior Doctors. Other people have calculated it slightly differently. Weve said the real cost is about 1. 1 billion because the government receives some of it back in tax and so on. They would say its about double that. About double. And ive got to be honest, i think thats worth it for maintaining the health care of your country. You once talked about getting nhs Pay Restoration for everybody. Mm, i think that would be ideal. Nurses, doctors, porters. How much would that cost . Oh, significantly more, because there is. Tens of billions, you were once quoted as saying. Yeah, possibly because there are. What, 50 odd billion . And again, none of these people are worth any less than they were worth in 2008. But do you think 50 billion is a realistic sum for pay . I think it would be fine. In other words, if emma runswick, now deputy chair of the bma, i made you Health Secretary, youd say, right, lets go to the chancellor, lets go and ask for £a0 50 billion to restore pay in the nhs. Well, i cant speak for the other groups of staff, but i dont think. Im sure theyd like the money if you did. I dont think it would be unreasonable. You know, why is it in society that we have decided that its acceptable to make working people, people who are running one of the most Essential Services in the country, for those people to be poorer . Why . It doesnt have to be that way. We could make a different choice. We could politically make a different choice. Well, we come back to why we have elections, then, rather than why we have trade unions, which is, we vote for people who make it. Now, in many ways, youd like us to do that, wouldnt you . I mean, theres a reason you call yourself red runswick. You regard yourself, i think the phrase you used at one stage is unashamedly socialist. What does that mean . It means that im happy to talk about the ideas that working people deserve their share. Id like to see a society in which the people who actually run society have far more control over it. Thats what id like to see. Is there anybody in politics that represents that set of ideas . Wasjeremy corbyn someone who represented that set of ideas, and john mcdonnell, when he was chancellor . I mean, much closer. But, you know, im not, you know, fan girling over anybody in the labour party. But is that sort of. . I take your point, these arent personalities you want about, but its that kind of politics that you want to see. You must be horrified by the labour party now, then. I mean, i think were getting certainly some progress from the labour party. I mean, Wes Streeting is now talking about Pay Restoration being a journey. Were happy to hear that. The labour party in wales, not so much. You know, theres Strike Action now from Junior Doctors in wales as well. You mentioned Wes Streeting, Labours Shadow Health secretary. Hes described the bma as hostile and blind to the something for nothing culture. Yeah. It doesnt sound like youve quite got him under your thumb. Hes rowed back a bit more recently, but yeah, definitely, he has some interesting ideas that we disagree with. But equally, you know, were talking to streeting and the Labour Partyjust in the same way that we talk to the conservatives. What do you disagree with . What do i disagree with Wes Streeting on . Oh, many things. So, you know, for example, he had some attacks on General Practice last year. Attacks . Yeah, absolutely. So hes saying things like, oh, well, wejust need better access. We should have patients having direct Referral Processes through. We dont really need as many gps and so on. But you know, General Practice is currently falling apart at the seams and i think the approach was not very helpful. But again, you know, he has moved back from some of those statements and we are now having more productive discussions with streeting. And, you know, im kind of assuming now that he will be the next Health Secretary and well have. You know, unless the tories change again, and well have more discussions with him then, and whoever else is in charge in any of the four nations. We havent talked yet about you as a doctor. Mm. You qualified as a doctor, and along comes covid. Yeah. It feels a long, long time ago, doesnt it . Emotionally, politically, the status of doctors, the way theyre perceived in public. 0k. Yeah, when you said it feels a long time ago, it doesnt. It doesnt feel a long time ago at all. The pandemic is still raging. We still see covid patients, people still die of covid. And, you know, these things are present, and more so, the experiences that we had during the first couple of waves of the pandemic. Do you feel. . Are still very present. Do you feel scarred by that . Because i know lots ofJunior Doctors. Yeah. Who may never really forget, certainly wont forget, but may not recover, frankly, emotionally from what they had to witness. Yeah. And in some cases, physically. You know, weve had lots of doctors who were repeatedly infected. Repeat infections raise your risk for long covid and long term symptoms from that. And of course, some of our colleagues died. I dont think we should forget those colleagues that we lost. So what was it like . Youre now i know in Community Mental health care, but then, like allJunior Doctors, you were, as it were, working on the front line, youre in hospital. What was that like . So the things that i will never forget in reality are. What became termed happy hypoxics. So normally, when people are on their way towards death, in the process of dying or they are losing oxygen through whatever condition they have, people become drowsy, people become less aware. Often we assist people in that by giving them pain relief, by giving them relaxants and so on, to ease the process of natural death. In covid, we had a lot of people who maintained full awareness despite the fact that their Oxygen Levels were falling quite dramatically. So you were able to have, we were able to have full conversations with people who i knew would imminently die. And that is something. Because. Ooh. That is something thats really difficult because. Difficult to recall as well, isnt it . Yes. Because the fear that. Like, i have and they have is not ameliorated by the fact that you are providing them some level of comfort. Did they know . Sometimes, no. But often, yes. This is death on a scale that i was not prepared for, and people, you know, previous to my generation had not seen it that way, and indeed, since, now we dont get it in the same way. Its a very particular generational occurrence. Do you think that explains the anger, because there clearly is anger amongst Junior Doctors. Hmm. What you described as the emotional scarring, the physical scarring sometimes, that. Well, the first word we used in this interview, that word militant, that militancy has some of its roots in the trauma. I think its possible. People like you have lived through. I think its possible, because if you are in an environment where you are, you know, risking your life and being very genuine about that, risking your life to look after others, and you are being applauded, you know, on the streets for doing so, and simultaneously, you are receiving shoddy ppe and another pay cut and another pay cut and continuing infantilisation, in the case particularly ofJunior Doctors. Infantilisation in the way youre treated . In the way were treated, in the way that our rotas are designed, in the way that our lives are not respected, picked up and moved across the country with no choice, you know, changes constantly, last minute changes like you dont have any life, they expect you to not have any wider life. Then, yeah, thats very difficult because it doesnt fit, right, with the work that youre doing. And it really emphasises how politicians do not care and how we have to act to get them to care. Whats striking, though, is that after that overwhelming public support, the clapping, the pots and pans being banged, youve still got some public support for doctors strikes. Oh, very much so. But its dropping and its dropped quite a long way, hasnt it . Do you fear that youre reaching a point at which the public are saying, enough now . So the polling shows still that more of the public support us than oppose the strikes, which is, i mean, ithink pretty incredible. Most trade unions dont receive that level of backing from the public. And whats even more interesting is that when you survey patients, the support is greater than amongst the general public. And i think thats because they see what we do. Although the reason for these strikes is simply because your mandate was about to run out. Youve got five more days of strikes, not because somethings fallen apart in a negotiation, but because if you dont, your mandate runs out. This is. Ive had it put to me by Senior Managers in the nhs, this is sort of trade union convenience. It isnt a response to whats happening in a negotiation, because youre not even in a negotiation at the moment. We are talking to the government. I mean, you know, the promise of talks within 20 minutes turned into 20 days. The promise of, ive got a final offer up my sleeve, that hasnt materialised. You know, weve had no further offer put to us that we can put to members, which is a real shame. And we set internal deadlines so that we dontjust go nowhere. So were in a space where, you know, we would much prefer not to be taking Strike Action. And indeed, we offered, we asked for the government and nhs employers to extend the mandate so that talks could continue further. If they think that were close to a deal, excellent, well give them more time. They asked you to put the pay negotiation to your members and you said you wouldnt do that. So theres. People make arguments on both sides. Nick, we would put something if theyd put something to us. Yeah. They said theyve offered you 3 more than they did originally. And right now, were re balloting. So if, you know, members have not at all told us that, oh, well, we would like 3 additional and were re balloting right now. If they think that 3 is enough, they can vote no. And i 100 guarantee you, nick, they will not vote no. Members will give us another mandate. Doctors will give us another mandate to take further Strike Action. These strikes will go on beyond the election . They might do. I hope not. I hope not every day that we will have, you know, further progress in negotiations. But if they want to put something to us that we are able to put to members, that might be accepted by members, then well put it. I mean, we have done in scotland. We did do for consultants. You know, we are not an unreasonable party to negotiate with. Emma runswick, deputy chair of the bma, the British Medical Association, thank you forjoining me on political thinking. Thank you for having me. Emma runswick personifies the transformation of the bma, once seen as a comfortable professional association, into a fighting trade union. She, along with colleagues, believed they were being let down in negotiations with the government. They took over the bma. Theyre now taking on the government. And whats clear, shes not planning to back down any time soon. Thanks for watching. Hello. It was a very soggy night across many parts of the uk and especially wet in the south earlier on today. But heres the good news. If you want some dry and bright weather, well, its arriving this afternoon. There will be a few showers around, though. Heres the Weather Front on the Satellite Picture as it clears from west towards the east, a definitive clearance behind this Weather Front. But even when the sunshine does come out in east anglia, and the southeast, there could be some showers following behind. Now, the temperatures on the mild side once again, were used to this now 13 in aberdeen, about 11, though, in liverpool and in the south and the southeast, 14 or 15. A clear evening, and then later tonight, another Weather Front moves in. This ones quite narrow, though. Could be quite heavy, but i dont think the rain is going to last for very long in any one location. Again, a relatively mild night eight in belfast, six or seven, i think for the most part, maybe a little bit cooler there in aberdeen at three degrees. In the morning, that Weather Front clears east anglia in the southeast. Then this ridge of High Pressure moves in. That means lighter winds, clearer skies, plenty of sunny spells. And again, temperatures typically double figures across the board. So thats mondays weather forecast. Lets see whats happening on tuesday. Another Weather Front moves in. So spells of rain for northern ireland, the north quite cloudy around the irish sea and pretty cloudy elsewhere with that also generally winds coming out of the west southwest so mild across the board. Double figures expected on tuesday. Up to about 12 to maybe 14 degrees. And then on wednesday, a more substantial dollop of rain heads our way. This big low pressure there dominating the North Atlantic and its Weather Front sweeping across the uk. We think the heaviest of the rain will be in the first half of the day. So that means the afternoon is looking a little bit brighter, but breezy, i think, with frequent showers, especially here in the northwest, and typically around 12 celsius. Towards the end of the week, well see that milder air pushing towards the east of the continent. A shot of not necessarily cold air, but cooler air arriving. So that means that the temperatures will ease from whats very mild at the moment to something closer to the seasonal norm, and a mixed bag with that as well. Bye bye. Live from london. This is bbc news after setbacks for ukraine in the war against russia President Biden vows to make sure a new package of Military Support is delivered to kyiv. The idea that now theyve run out of ammunition, we walk away, ifind itabsurd, ifind it unethical, ifind itjust contrary to everything that we are as a country. The World Health Organisation says gazas Second Biggest Hospital is now completely out of Service Following an israeli raid. The family of Alexei Navalny call on russian authorities to release his body accusing them of concealing evidence. And its british films big night later oppenhemier has the most bafta film award nominations, but will it win big . Hello. Welcome to bbc news. We start with the latest on the war in ukraine. President biden has blamed russias capture of a Frontline Town in Eastern Ukraine on the failure of us lawmakers to approve a huge package of military aid for kyiv. President biden spoke to ukraines president zelensky after Ukrainian Forces pulled out of avdiivkar. Mr biden told him he was confident politicians in congress would approve the billions of dollars in additional war aid. President putin has congratulated the soldiers who captured the town. Our correspondent simon jones has this report. Withdrawal. Ukrainian soldiers forced to retreat from avdiivka, a key town in the east of ukraine. Although they are still fighting, a shortage of supplies and ammunition has been blamed for giving russia one of its biggest