Transcripts For BBCNEWS Nicky 20240705 : comparemela.com

and here is the news, from bethan holmes. a report by a cross—party group of mps into nhs dentistry is calling for "urgent and fundamental reform", describing the lack of access to dental care as "totally unacceptable". last year a bbc survey found the majority of practices were refusing to accept new adult nhs patients. the government says it invests more than £3 billion a year in dentistry. hollywood actors are walking off set in their biggest strike in a0 years after talks with major studios and streaming services broke down. the screen actors guild wants increased fees for repeats and assurances about the use of artificial intelligence. it has been confirmed that lisa marie presley died of a bowel obstruction which was caused as a result of adhesions from weight—loss surgery which she underwent several years ago. she died injanuary at the age of 5a. india's space agency is preparing to launch a mission to the moon — it should be lifting off in about an hour's time. the mission should get there by the end of august and it will deploy a rover to explore the moon's south pole. good morning. smile though your tooth is aching. easier said than done. the commons health and social care committee are saying that the government need to fix this, and quickly. in lancashire, norfolk, devon and leeds, not a single practice was accepting new adult patients. we've heard about people driving hundreds of miles for treatment or even resorting to pulling out their own teeth. now the commons health and social care committee has told the government it needs to do more to fix the crisis — and quickly! how are you doing, khalid? i am nood, how are you doing, khalid? i am good. thank _ how are you doing, khalid? i am good. thank you. _ how are you doing, khalid? i am good, thank you, nicky, - how are you doing, khalid? i —n good, thank you, nicky, how are you? i am for. it is desperate for people, eddie crouch as well, chair of the british dental association, good morning to you, eddie. goad good morning to you, eddie. good mornin: good morning to you, eddie. good morning to — good morning to you, eddie. good morning to you. — good morning to you, eddie. good morning to you, nicky. _ good morning to you, eddie. good morning to you, nicky. khalid, - morning to you, nicky. khalid, ardon morning to you, nicky. khalid, pardon my _ morning to you, nicky. khalid, pardon my strong _ morning to you, nicky. khalid, pardon my strong language, i morning to you, nicky. khalid, i pardon my strong language, what morning to you, nicky. khalid, - pardon my strong language, what the heckis pardon my strong language, what the heck is going on here?— heck is going on here? nicky, it is heartbroken. _ heck is going on here? nicky, it is heartbroken, actually, _ heck is going on here? nicky, it is heartbroken, actually, it- heck is going on here? nicky, it is heartbroken, actually, it really - heck is going on here? nicky, it is heartbroken, actually, it really is. i heartbroken, actually, it really is. there _ heartbroken, actually, it really is. there is_ heartbroken, actually, it really is. there is an — heartbroken, actually, it really is. there is an enormous amount to unpack— there is an enormous amount to unpack here. as a dentist, as a primary— unpack here. as a dentist, as a primary care dentist who really has dedicated — primary care dentist who really has dedicated their life to the nhs, honestly it breaks my heart to have to now _ honestly it breaks my heart to have to now distance myself from the nhs, because _ to now distance myself from the nhs, because fundamentally, the nhs, nhs dentistry— because fundamentally, the nhs, nhs dentistry is flawed, the way that is set up. _ dentistry is flawed, the way that is set up, with the units of dental activity. — set up, with the units of dental activity. is— set up, with the units of dental activity, is flawed, it means me as activity, is flawed, it means me as a clinician. — activity, is flawed, it means me as a clinician, especially with the demand — a clinician, especially with the demand that we have at the moment, i am unable _ demand that we have at the moment, i am unable to— demand that we have at the moment, i am unable to look after my patient in what _ am unable to look after my patient in what i _ am unable to look after my patient in what i believe is a safe manner, and instead — in what i believe is a safe manner, and instead i— in what i believe is a safe manner, and instead i am constantly firefighting, constantlyjust trying firefighting, constantly just trying to deal— firefighting, constantlyjust trying to deal with emergencies without being _ to deal with emergencies without being able to deal holistically with my patients. the government did trial some — my patients. the government did trial some kind of preventative type dentistry, _ trial some kind of preventative type dentistry, they put these kind of, what _ dentistry, they put these kind of, what do _ dentistry, they put these kind of, what do you call it, pilot studies together, — what do you call it, pilot studies together, and they did those for several— together, and they did those for several years, together, and they did those for severalyears, my together, and they did those for several years, my practice was part of that, _ several years, my practice was part of that, where the focus was on prevention, on looking after the patients, — prevention, on looking after the patients, but sadly, they were scrapped — patients, but sadly, they were scrapped a couple of years ago. and went back— scrapped a couple of years ago. and went back to the udas because i think— went back to the udas because i think the — went back to the udas because i think the udas are just easy for the government to try and put together. expiain _ government to try and put together. expiain the — government to try and put together. explain the udas?_ explain the udas? sorry, so, those are units of— explain the udas? sorry, so, those are units of dental _ explain the udas? sorry, so, those are units of dental activity, - are units of dental activity, basically, the government pay dentists — basically, the government pay dentists by how many units of dental activity— dentists by how many units of dental activity they do every year, and that means that we as dentists, as clinicians. — that means that we as dentists, as clinicians, have to see so many patients — clinicians, have to see so many patients and do so much treatment in order— patients and do so much treatment in order to _ patients and do so much treatment in order to fulfil our contract. now, if you _ order to fulfil our contract. now, if you can — order to fulfil our contract. now, if you can bear with me, what that means— if you can bear with me, what that means and — if you can bear with me, what that means and why this is fundamentally flawed _ means and why this is fundamentally flawed is _ means and why this is fundamentally flawed is because if we get patients who have _ flawed is because if we get patients who have a lot of high demand, like mynhs _ who have a lot of high demand, like mynhs practice, which is in north manchester, the demand is very high, if i manchester, the demand is very high, if i am _ manchester, the demand is very high, if i am dealing with my patient as i should _ if i am dealing with my patient as i should he — if i am dealing with my patient as i should be in dealing with them to make _ should be in dealing with them to make them dental e—fit and healthy, it takes— make them dental e—fit and healthy, it takes time, especially if they need _ it takes time, especially if they need a — it takes time, especially if they need a lot— it takes time, especially if they need a lot of treatment. —— dentale fit. need a lot of treatment. —— dentale fit~ if_ need a lot of treatment. —— dentale fit~ if i _ need a lot of treatment. —— dentale fit~ if i don't — need a lot of treatment. —— dentale fit. if i don't fit my units of dental— fit. if i don't fit my units of dental activity by the end of the year. _ dental activity by the end of the year. the — dental activity by the end of the year, the nhs will find me massively, really stringent fines, and so _ massively, really stringent fines, and so every year we are pushing and pushing _ and so every year we are pushing and pushing and _ and so every year we are pushing and pushing and pushing because we have to literally... people talk about conveyor — to literally... people talk about conveyor belt of nhs dentistry, this is what _ conveyor belt of nhs dentistry, this is what it— conveyor belt of nhs dentistry, this is what it is, and it is a horrible ptace _ is what it is, and it is a horrible place to— is what it is, and it is a horrible place to he. _ is what it is, and it is a horrible place to be, quite honestly, which is why. _ place to be, quite honestly, which is why, nicky, i've made the difficult _ is why, nicky, i've made the difficult decision that actually i want _ difficult decision that actually i want to— difficult decision that actually i want to practise dentistry which has values. _ want to practise dentistry which has values, which has values for me as a clinician. _ values, which has values for me as a clinician. has— values, which has values for me as a clinician, has values for my patient. _ clinician, has values for my patient, and the only way that i feel that — patient, and the only way that i feel that i — patient, and the only way that i feel that i can do that now properly and safety— feel that i can do that now properly and safely is by going private. and ou texted and safely is by going private. 35qu you texted me this morning to say, i need to come on and talk about this, and i appreciate that. some of the recommendations... out the backlog, ring—fence dentistry budgets, what else, fundamental reform of the dental contract is essential, must be urgently implemented. a workplace survey is required to figure out exactly how many staff we have working in nhs dentistry, some of the recommendations there. so interesting, that, from khalid. we are going to take it to the people right now, i will be with you presently, eddie, karen in east barton, joe in london, and some in weston—super—mare, karen, what is your situation? weston—super—mare, karen, what is yoursituation? i weston-super-mare, karen, what is your situation?— your situation? i have actually not seen a dentist _ your situation? i have actually not seen a dentist since _ your situation? i have actually not seen a dentist since october- your situation? i have actually not| seen a dentist since october 2019, my dentist went back home, i'm still registered with the practice but the practice has not replaced that the dentist. ~ .. .. . practice has not replaced that the dentist. ~ ., ., , , ~ practice has not replaced that the dentist. . ., ., , , ~ ., dentist. what has it been like for ou? dentist. what has it been like for you? luckily. _ dentist. what has it been like for you? luckily. i— dentist. what has it been like for you? luckily, i have _ dentist. what has it been like for you? luckily, i have had - dentist. what has it been like for you? luckily, i have had no - dentist. what has it been like for you? luckily, i have had no pain| dentist. what has it been like for. you? luckily, i have had no pain but i am concerned _ you? luckily, i have had no pain but i am concerned that _ you? luckily, i have had no pain but i am concerned that i _ you? luckily, i have had no pain but i am concerned that i have - you? luckily, i have had no pain but i am concerned that i have no - i am concerned that i have no preventative treatment, i have a small crack in a tooth that needs some care but i've got no dentist to deal with it. i am just worried about the overall health of my teeth, i have been lucky, with no pain, but if that changes, it really worries me, people driving miles to find a dentist at the moment. exactly, and it is so important for general health as well, and if you've got a crack in your tooth, you're on tenterhooks, thinking it is going to get worse. when you tried to register with an nhs dentist, what happened? there are no nhs dentists — dentist, what happened? there are no nhs dentists taking _ dentist, what happened? there are no nhs dentists taking on _ dentist, what happened? there are no nhs dentists taking on around - dentist, what happened? there are no nhs dentists taking on around my - nhs dentists taking on around my area, so i stayed registered with my practice, there was no dentist there, in the hope that a dentist will turn up, but it is not looking very helpful. will turn up, but it is not looking very helpful-— will turn up, but it is not looking very helpful. good morning, 10, in east london- _ very helpful. good morning, 10, in east london. tell _ very helpful. good morning, 10, in east london. tell us about - very helpful. good morning, 10, in east london. tell us about your i east london. tell us about your struggle. east london. tell us about your stru: ule. .. ,., east london. tell us about your strut i le, ., , ., ., , struggle. yeah, so, i have been auoin to struggle. yeah, so, i have been going to a _ struggle. yeah, so, i have been going to a private _ struggle. yeah, so, i have been going to a private dentist - struggle. yeah, so, i have been going to a private dentist for. struggle. yeah, so, i have been going to a private dentist for a i going to a private dentist for a white. — going to a private dentist for a while, just needed regular care, and preventative, but i had a feeling two months ago and since then i have been in _ two months ago and since then i have been in a _ two months ago and since then i have been in a lot— two months ago and since then i have been in a lot of pain, a lot of sensitivity— been in a lot of pain, a lot of sensitivity keeping me up and night and so _ sensitivity keeping me up and night and so i _ sensitivity keeping me up and night and so i went back again and they said that — and so i went back again and they said that i — and so i went back again and they said that i should get root canal treatment which is about £1400, which _ treatment which is about £1400, which i _ treatment which is about £1400, which i can't afford. but the cheaper— which i can't afford. but the cheaper option is to get the tooth out even — cheaper option is to get the tooth out even though it doesn't really need _ out even though it doesn't really need to— out even though it doesn't really need to come out, that would just sotve _ need to come out, that would just solve the — need to come out, that would just solve the problem quickly and cheaply — solve the problem quickly and cheaply. which ijust really, really don't _ cheaply. which ijust really, really don't want. — cheaply. which ijust really, really don't want, i have had a bad experience of that before and just don't _ experience of that before and just don't want — experience of that before and just don't want it if i don't have to. and _ don't want it if i don't have to. and we — don't want it if i don't have to. and i've been calling around locally to try _ and i've been calling around locally to try and _ and i've been calling around locally to try and go on even just a waiting list but _ to try and go on even just a waiting list but have — to try and go on even just a waiting list but have not managed to be added _ list but have not managed to be added to— list but have not managed to be added to a waiting list for where is the tooth? — added to a waiting list for where is the tooth? it is right at the back. i'm the tooth? it is right at the back. i'm actually— the tooth? it is right at the back. i'm actually putting my fingers in my mouth. how much would it cost to get it extracted? still my mouth. how much would it cost to get it extracted?— get it extracted? still a few hundred pounds. _ get it extracted? still a few hundred pounds. but- get it extracted? still a few _ hundred pounds. but comparatively... £1400. _ hundred pounds. but comparatively... £1400. that _ hundred pounds. but comparatively... £1400, that is... and the pain? yeah, so, i've had antibiotics and that seems— yeah, so, i've had antibiotics and that seems to have calmed it down a little bit. _ that seems to have calmed it down a little bit, the pain was really bad, i little bit, the pain was really bad, i was _ little bit, the pain was really bad, i was taking painkillers every few hours _ i was taking painkillers every few hours. even in the night i was having — hours. even in the night i was having to _ hours. even in the night i was having to wake up and take them. but that the _ having to wake up and take them. but that the moment i am just kind of waiting _ that the moment i am just kind of waiting to — that the moment i am just kind of waiting to see every time i have a hot drink— waiting to see every time i have a hot drink or— waiting to see every time i have a hot drink or a cold drink or... the pain— hot drink or a cold drink or... the pain is— hot drink or a cold drink or... the pain is there _ hot drink or a cold drink or... the pain is there. so, i am hot drink or a cold drink or... the pain is there. so, lam reminded hot drink or a cold drink or... the pain is there. so, i am reminded of it on— pain is there. so, i am reminded of it onan— pain is there. so, i am reminded of it on an ongoing basis. my goodness me. sam it on an ongoing basis. my goodness me- sam in — it on an ongoing basis. my goodness me. sam in weston-super-mare,, l it on an ongoing basis. my goodness - me. sam in weston-super-mare,, good me. sam in weston—super—mare,, good morning. are you joining the bandwagon of frustration, what's happening?— bandwagon of frustration, what's haueninu? .. . happening? yeah, well, i almost died even 'ust happening? yeah, well, i almost died even just waiting _ happening? yeah, well, i almost died even just waiting to _ happening? yeah, well, i almost died even just waiting to try _ happening? yeah, well, i almost died even just waiting to try and _ happening? yeah, well, i almost died even just waiting to try and get - happening? yeah, well, i almost died even just waiting to try and get an - even just waiting to try and get an nhs dentist. because i have got a chipped tooth and i have been trying to sort out and i have got previous medical health conditions, the tooth, where it was, it got infected and that caused me to have sepsis, which, that put me in hospital and out of hospital several times, to the point where i was defibrillator twice, and it was really traumatic. i've still got the issue with the tooth, still can't get on any waiting list with a dentist. goodness me. argue 0k, apart from everything else and the desperate wait for a dentist, how is your general health?— wait for a dentist, how is your general health? general health is not treat. general health? general health is not great- i _ general health? general health is not great. i am _ general health? general health is not great. i am now _ general health? general health is not great. i am now under - general health? general health is not great. i am now under the - not great. i am now under the palliative care team in bristol. so, they are just trying to make my life a bit more comfortable before i can see a dentist, i guess. fill. a bit more comfortable before i can see a dentist, i guess.— see a dentist, i guess. oh, my goodness _ see a dentist, i guess. oh, my goodness me. _ see a dentist, i guess. oh, my goodness me, sam, _ see a dentist, i guess. oh, my goodness me, sam, thank - see a dentist, i guess. oh, my goodness me, sam, thank you see a dentist, i guess. oh, my. goodness me, sam, thank you so see a dentist, i guess. oh, my- goodness me, sam, thank you so much. jan in glasgow. hi, how are you? i am fine, how are you, jan, i am i am good. lucky you! i rang up... i had a fall and basically broke my teeth and a lot of them got pushed up into the gum and basically i have got a mouth like a broken fence, that is the only way i can describe it. but i was the only way i can describe it. but i was meant _ the only way i can describe it. but i was meant to _ the only way i can describe it. but i was meant to go to a dental hospitat— i was meant to go to a dental hospital and basically get put to steep _ hospital and basically get put to sleep to— hospital and basically get put to sleep to get them out and i was just walking _ sleep to get them out and i was just walking down the street one day to id walking down the street one day to go to— walking down the street one day to go to the _ walking down the street one day to go to the chemist and the dentist had shut— go to the chemist and the dentist had shut and he had gone and nobody knows _ had shut and he had gone and nobody knows anything. and you're just left in limbo. _ knows anything. and you're just left in limbo, really, i can't get into a dentist — in limbo, really, i can't get into a dentist at— in limbo, really, i can't get into a dentist. at all.— dentist. at all. listen, the situation _ dentist. at all. listen, the situation is _ dentist. at all. listen, the situation is slightly - dentist. at all. listen, the situation is slightly better| dentist. at all. listen, the l situation is slightly better in scotland than it is in england, wales and northern ireland. nelson, listening to all of this, chair of the british dental association, eddie, how do we fix nhs dentistry? well, i think the report that has come out to date is probably a manual for saving come out to date is probably a manualfor saving nhs come out to date is probably a manual for saving nhs dentistry. manualfor saving nhs dentistry. but i gave evidence to the helcelet bitty 15 years ago when i thought that as well. and nothing has happened. and it is frustrating when you hear these awful stories, and i hear them daily, weekly, from patient groups that i mix with and liaise with to try and lobby to get serious reform, and urgent reform. this report is asking for that. but you get platitudes from the prime minister at prime ministers question time saying we've got more dentists, we've got 3 billion invested in the nhs... and that urgency needs to change, from that platitude, because i heard steve brian this morning on radio talking about this report, i think this is the last chance for nhs dentistry. aha, think this is the last chance for nhs dentistry.— nhs dentistry. a last chance? absolutely. — nhs dentistry. a last chance? absolutely, if _ nhs dentistry. a last chance? absolutely, if this _ nhs dentistry. a last chance? absolutely, if this is - nhs dentistry. a last chance? absolutely, if this is not - nhs dentistry. a last chance? j absolutely, if this is not acted upon, i can't see a or in encompassing nhs dental service in the future. .. . encompassing nhs dental service in the future. ., , ., encompassing nhs dental service in thefuture. ., , , . the future. khalid is a public sirited the future. khalid is a public spirited man _ the future. khalid is a public spirited man that _ the future. khalid is a public spirited man that i - the future. khalid is a public spirited man that i know- the future. khalid is a publicj spirited man that i know you the future. khalid is a public - spirited man that i know you are, you must be listening to all these poor people and thinking you wish you could help them?— poor people and thinking you wish you could help them? nicky, the care has one you could help them? nicky, the care has gone out — you could help them? nicky, the care has gone out of _ you could help them? nicky, the care has gone out of the _ you could help them? nicky, the care has gone out of the nhs, _ you could help them? nicky, the care has gone out of the nhs, honestly. i has gone out of the nhs, honestly. and it _ has gone out of the nhs, honestly. and it is _ has gone out of the nhs, honestly. and it is so — has gone out of the nhs, honestly. and it is so sad. it is heartbreaking, and what they say is absolutely — heartbreaking, and what they say is absolutely spot on but it is not something that is new, we have been saying _ something that is new, we have been saying this _ something that is new, we have been saying this for years and years and years _ saying this for years and years and years and — saying this for years and years and years. and sadly every government that comes — years. and sadly every government that comes injust pays lip service to correcting the problem. it is fundamentally flawed and it means that people are doing their own dentistry— that people are doing their own dentistry or people are going abroad to do dentistry. and it means that the people — to do dentistry. and it means that the people who need it the most, the people _ the people who need it the most, the people that we are there to really serve _ people that we are there to really serve in _ people that we are there to really serve in the nhs, can't access it because — serve in the nhs, can't access it because there isjust not enough space _ because there isjust not enough space. and it fundamentally needs fixing _ space. and it fundamentally needs fixing. and the trouble is that whenever health service policy is talked _ whenever health service policy is talked about, delivered or done, dentistry— talked about, delivered or done, dentistry is more than oftenjust a footnote — dentistry is more than oftenjust a footnote. and so it is easily pushed aside. _ footnote. and so it is easily pushed aside. and — footnote. and so it is easily pushed aside, and it's really sad to see that _ aside, and it's really sad to see that l— aside, and it's really sad to see that. .. aside, and it's really sad to see that. ., ., ., i. that. i want to ask you something else in just _ that. i want to ask you something else in just a _ that. i want to ask you something else in just a second _ that. i want to ask you something else in just a second but - that. i want to ask you something else in just a second but some . that. i want to ask you something | else in just a second but some use just coming in, almost 1000 workers at gatwick airport including baggage handlers and check—in staff will stage days of strikes from later this month in a dispute over pay. the unite union hasjust announced that. more on the bbc news website an app throughout the day and on radio 5 live. i think a lot of people listening to this and indeed watching will be thinking, hang on, thatis watching will be thinking, hang on, that is when i was going to go away. anyway, that is what we have just heard. seamus in whithorn, hi, in just a second. i was going to ask you, khalid, we heard there, it was jo in east london, about looking at going private to sort out root canal work and showers told £1400, is that standard? .. ~ work and showers told £1400, is that standard? ., ,, ., work and showers told £1400, is that standard? ., ~ ., . work and showers told £1400, is that standard? . ~ ., . , standard? yeah,. like that which is a back tooth _ standard? yeah,. like that which is a back tooth kind _ standard? yeah,. like that which is a back tooth kind of— standard? yeah,. like that which is a back tooth kind of treated - standard? yeah,. like that which is a back tooth kind of treated with i standard? yeah,. like that which is a back tooth kind of treated with al a back tooth kind of treated with a root canal and then probably a crown on top, that is a lot of involved treatment. 0ften on top, that is a lot of involved treatment. often if not specialist care than it is going to be somebody who has spent a very long time doing some intricate work that requires a lot of training to be able to do. so, yeah, that is probably not far off probably what you would do. and some people will do that treatment, can do that treatment, on the nhs, but often it requires somebody who has got a little bit more than who has got a little bit more than who has done a little bit more training thanjust your has done a little bit more training than just your standard dental training, to be able to do that, which is why the cost is, you know, kind of in that sort of ballpark. but yes, the nhs should be there to help pay shut like that, and it is notjust help pay shut like that, and it is not just about the treatments, the order treatments here and there, this is about looking after our patients holistic. it is about saying, when we're talking about making somebody dentally fit, what does that mean? for me it also means about their quality of life, and also about how they perceive their oral health and how we can help make sure that problems don't occur in the future. and it takes time to do that you can listen to us on radio 5 live and on bbc sounds watch us on bbc news and the iplayer as well. talking about quality of life, seamus, in whithorn, what is yours like at the moment?— like at the moment? well, it's really bad- _ like at the moment? well, it's really bad. i've _ like at the moment? well, it's really bad. i've got _ like at the moment? well, it's really bad. i've got ten - like at the moment? well, it's really bad. i've got ten teeth l like at the moment? well, it's i really bad. i've got ten teeth left and i_ really bad. i've got ten teeth left and i can't — really bad. i've got ten teeth left and i can't eat any more, i have to eat with _ and i can't eat any more, i have to eat with my— and i can't eat any more, i have to eat with my finger to push against another— eat with my finger to push against another tooth. and i can't get any help from — another tooth. and i can't get any help from the nhs. you another tooth. and i can't get any help from the nhs.— another tooth. and i can't get any help from the nhs. you can't eat, it is too painful? _ help from the nhs. you can't eat, it is too painful? it's _ help from the nhs. you can't eat, it is too painful? it's really _ help from the nhs. you can't eat, it is too painful? it's really painful, . is too painful? it's really painful, eah. is too painful? it's really painful, yeah- l've _ is too painful? it's really painful, yeah- we got — is too painful? it's really painful, yeah. i've got infections - is too painful? it's really painful, yeah. i've got infections all- is too painful? it's really painful, yeah. i've got infections all over| yeah. i've got infections all over my gums — yeah. i've got infections all over my gums at the moment. and i'm running _ my gums at the moment. and i'm running out — my gums at the moment. and i'm running out of options. there is no help _ running out of options. there is no help. basically if iphone a dentist they say. — help. basically if iphone a dentist they say, no, we're not interested. and you've — they say, no, we're not interested. and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, i've found and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, we found quite _ and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, i've found quite a _ and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, i've found quite a few. _ and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, i've found quite a few. i've _ and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, i've found quite a few. i've got - and you've phoned quite a few? yeah, i've found quite a few. i've got ten - i've found quite a few. i've got ten teeth— i've found quite a few. i've got ten teeth left — i've found quite a few. i've got ten teeth left and i've got infections all over— teeth left and i've got infections all over the place and i don't know where _ all over the place and i don't know where to— all over the place and i don't know where to turn next. i'm pulling my own teeth — where to turn next. i'm pulling my own teeth out.— where to turn next. i'm pulling my own teeth out. what is that like. . . ? just on own teeth out. what is that like. . . ? just on that. — own teeth out. what is that like. . . ? just on that, nicky, _ own teeth out. what is that like. . . ? just on that, nicky, for _ own teeth out. what is that like. . . ? just on that, nicky, for people - own teeth out. what is that like. . . ? just on that, nicky, for people who | just on that, nicky, for people who are in pain, there is supposed to be an nhs emergency service which you can usually access from nhs or local done dental practices will kind of advise you of the local emergency service, which is designed there for people who are unable to access nhs dentistry but are in pain, need an emergency appointment, it's not great but it should pick up those people that need quite urgent treatment. people that need quite urgent treatment-— people that need quite urgent treatment. ,, . , ., ., people that need quite urgent treatment. ,, ., , ., ., treatment. so, seamus, what are you auoin to treatment. so, seamus, what are you going to do? _ treatment. so, seamus, what are you going to do? i— treatment. so, seamus, what are you going to do? i don't _ treatment. so, seamus, what are you going to do? i don't know— treatment. so, seamus, what are you going to do? i don't know what - treatment. so, seamus, what are you going to do? i don't know what i'm i going to do? i don't know what i'm auoin to going to do? i don't know what i'm going to do- _ going to do? i don't know what i'm going to do. basically _ going to do? i don't know what i'm going to do. basically all— going to do? i don't know what i'm going to do. basically all i'm i going to do? i don't know what i'm going to do. basically all i'm going| going to do. basically all i'm going to do is pull my own teeth out. i have got a pair of players and that is the only thing i can do. haste have got a pair of players and that is the only thing i can do. have you ulled is the only thing i can do. have you pulled some _ is the only thing i can do. have you pulled some teeth _ is the only thing i can do. have you pulled some teeth out? _ is the only thing i can do. have you pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've| pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've ulled pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've pulled some _ pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've pulled some teeth _ pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've pulled some teeth out _ pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've pulled some teeth out already, i pulled some teeth out? yeah, i've i pulled some teeth out already, yeah. i've pulled six teeth out, yeah. and i've pulled six teeth out, yeah. and i've got one more that needs to be pulled out. so, i'm going to do that today. pulled out. so, i'm going to do that toda . �* ., ., i. ., pulled out. so, i'm going to do that toda . �* ., ., ., ., ., today. and how do you go about that, how do you — today. and how do you go about that, how do you prepare — today. and how do you go about that, how do you prepare yourself, - today. and how do you go about that, how do you prepare yourself, i'm i how do you prepare yourself, i'm trying to think what i would do? well, it's really painful but the thing is, the tooth i've got at the moment, it is pinching my gums, so, it's really painful, so i'm just going to get a pair of pliers and i'm going to pull it out. because i can't get any help anywhere. desperate. can't get any help anywhere. desperate-— can't get any help anywhere. deserate. . �* , , ., desperate. yeah, i'm desperate, eah, desperate. yeah, i'm desperate, yeah. i'm — desperate. yeah, i'm desperate, yeah, i'm desperate. _ desperate. yeah, i'm desperate, yeah, i'm desperate. eddie i desperate. yeah, i'm desperate, i yeah, i'm desperate. eddie crouch, what do you — yeah, i'm desperate. eddie crouch, what do you say? — yeah, i'm desperate. eddie crouch, what do you say? there _ yeah, i'm desperate. eddie crouch, what do you say? there is - yeah, i'm desperate. eddie crouch, what do you say? there is hardly i what do you say? there is hardly an hint what do you say? there is hardly an him i what do you say? there is hardly anything i can — what do you say? there is hardly anything i can say. _ what do you say? there is hardly anything i can say. that - what do you say? there is hardly anything i can say. that is - what do you say? there is hardly anything i can say. that is so i anything i can say. that is so shocking _ anything i can say. that is so shocking that we've got to the point wherem _ shocking that we've got to the point wherem ive— shocking that we've got to the point where... i've met many people, sadly. _ where... i've met many people, sadly. who _ where... i've met many people, sadly, who have taken their own teeth— sadly, who have taken their own teeth out — sadly, who have taken their own teeth out. and... it is so awful. that— teeth out. and... it is so awful. that we — teeth out. and... it is so awful. that we haven't got a national health — that we haven't got a national health service that extends to provide — health service that extends to provide care for people exactly like your caller~ — provide care for people exactly like your caller. and we've been campaigning for this for a long, long _ campaigning for this for a long, long time. _ campaigning for this for a long, long time, and as i said earlier, unless— long time, and as i said earlier, unless this _ long time, and as i said earlier, unless this report is acted upon, and we're — unless this report is acted upon, and we're entering that terrible period — and we're entering that terrible period before a general election where _ period before a general election where you worry that something isn't going _ where you worry that something isn't going to _ where you worry that something isn't going to be _ where you worry that something isn't going to be done, and then any new government will then reassess, and we've _ government will then reassess, and we've lost— government will then reassess, and we've lost further to people exactly like that _ we've lost further to people exactly like that caller, the urgency that is called — like that caller, the urgency that is called for in this report, that it will— is called for in this report, that it will not— is called for in this report, that it will not be acted upon. 30, is called for in this report, that it will not be acted upon. so, what should seamus _ it will not be acted upon. so, what should seamus do? _ it will not be acted upon. so, what should seamus do? i _ it will not be acted upon. so, what should seamus do? i agree - it will not be acted upon. so, what should seamus do? i agree with i it will not be acted upon. so, what. should seamus do? i agree with my colleaaue should seamus do? i agree with my colleague from _ should seamus do? i agree with my colleague from manchester, - should seamus do? i agree with my colleague from manchester, 111 i colleague from manchester, 11! should — colleague from manchester, 11! should be able to find seamus someone _ should be able to find seamus someone to take that tooth out. not today. _ someone to take that tooth out. not today, maybe tomorrow. that service should _ today, maybe tomorrow. that service should be _ today, maybe tomorrow. that service should be available. it�*s today, maybe tomorrow. that service should be available.— should be available. it's not 'ust one should be available. it's not 'ust tooth. fl should be available. it's not 'ust one tooth, it's i should be available. it's not 'ust one tooth, it's alli should be available. it's not 'ust one tooth, it's all ofi should be available. it's not 'ust one tooth, it's all of them, i should be available. it's notjust one tooth, it's all of them, i i should be available. it's notjust i one tooth, it's all of them, i need them all out. i one tooth, it's all of them, i need them all out-— them all out. i understand that, seamus, them all out. i understand that, seamus. and — them all out. i understand that, seamus, and then _ them all out. i understand that, seamus, and then obviously i them all out. i understand that, i seamus, and then obviously once you've _ seamus, and then obviously once you've lost — seamus, and then obviously once you've lost all those teeth you are going _ you've lost all those teeth you are going to _ you've lost all those teeth you are going to something in there to replace. — going to something in there to relace. .. .. . going to something in there to relace. ., ., , , ., replace. yeah, false teeth, yeah. and that should _ replace. yeah, false teeth, yeah. and that should be _ replace. yeah, false teeth, yeah. and that should be available i replace. yeah, false teeth, yeah. and that should be available to i replace. yeah, false teeth, yeah. i and that should be available to you, that is— and that should be available to you, that is exactly what the bb! have been _ that is exactly what the bb! have been campaigning about. how that is exactly what the bdi have been campaigning about. how much would it cost. _ been campaigning about. how much would it cost, ballpark, _ been campaigning about. how much would it cost, ballpark, khalid, i been campaigning about. how much would it cost, ballpark, khalid, to i would it cost, ballpark, khalid, to fix seamus? i would it cost, ballpark, khalid, to fix seamus?— would it cost, ballpark, khalid, to fix seamus? i mean, nicky, that is really difficult _ fix seamus? i mean, nicky, that is really difficult to _ fix seamus? i mean, nicky, that is really difficult to say, _ fix seamus? i mean, nicky, that is really difficult to say, and - fix seamus? i mean, nicky, that is really difficult to say, and whether| really difficult to say, and whether it is on the nhs or whether it is privately. but to take a tooth out, really, especially in... i think... any nhs dentist would have caused be able to do that pretty quickly and of course on the nhs, some patients have to pay certain amounts for treatments, some don't have to pay for treatments at all, so, i agree with eddie that this is something... i can't believe this is britain in 2023, ijust can't believe it. it's... you know, if we were talking about an impoverished country in the third world or whatever like that, we would be shocked. and this is britain in 2023, and as a clinician, this doesn't surprise me. and that is even more kind of heartbreaking, shocking, as somebody as i said at the beginning, i have grown up in the beginning, i have grown up in the nhs, i've been surrounded by the nhs, i've loved the nhs, and the nhs isjust not fit nhs, i've loved the nhs, and the nhs is just not fit for purpose at the moment. ~ .. is just not fit for purpose at the moment. ~ ., ., , ., is just not fit for purpose at the moment. ~ ., ., ,~. ._ isjust not fit for purpose at the moment. ~ ., ., ,, ., moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah, i moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah. i love — moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah, i love the _ moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah, i love the nhs, _ moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah, i love the nhs, the _ moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah, i love the nhs, the nhs- moment. what do you say, seamus? yeah, i love the nhs, the nhs is- yeah, i love the nhs, the nhs is brilliant. — yeah, i love the nhs, the nhs is brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will ou brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will you keep _ brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will you keep in — brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will you keep in touch _ brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will you keep in touch with - brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will you keep in touch with us i brilliant, but i need help. seamus, will you keep in touch with us and l will you keep in touch with us and tell us what is happening and will you also take advice to maybe try the ill? i you also take advice to maybe try the iii? i can't do anything else but wish you well but i can also thank you so much for calling in. nicky, i love you and i what your programme every day office that is so kind _ programme every day office that is so kind of— programme every day office that is so kind of you and i will be thinking _ so kind of you and i will be thinking about you, seamus. john, peter— thinking about you, seamus. john, peter and — thinking about you, seamus. john, peter and claire, dental nurse, claire. — peter and claire, dental nurse, claire. give _ peter and claire, dental nurse, claire, give us your expertise, goodness _ claire, give us your expertise, goodness me!— claire, give us your expertise, noodness me! ., . goodness me! good morning. well, i have been working _ goodness me! good morning. well, i have been working as _ goodness me! good morning. well, i have been working as a _ goodness me! good morning. well, i have been working as a dental - goodness me! good morning. well, i have been working as a dental for i goodness me! good morning. well, i have been working as a dental for 12| have been working as a dental for 12 years now in the gentl sector and it is an absolute shambles, it is extremely sad to see. we are seeing patients that are coming in —— in the dental sector —— that can't afford dental treatment, they are entitled to the free nhs treatment and they are having to pay privately to have treatment. for me, that is really sad and a scene to see. what really sad and a scene to see. what is the staffing _ really sad and a scene to see. what is the staffing like? _ really sad and a scene to see. what is the staffing like? terrible. - is the staffing like? terrible. there are — is the staffing like? terrible. there are dentists _ is the staffing like? terrible. there are dentists and i is the staffing like? terrible. | there are dentists and dental is the staffing like? terrible. - there are dentists and dental nurses leaving left, right and centre. dental nurses are like gold dust now, we are very poorly paid. dentists are not making money, and it's just really bad. bud dentists are not making money, and it'sjust really bad.— it'sjust really bad. and does the dental practice _ it'sjust really bad. and does the dental practice where _ it'sjust really bad. and does the dental practice where you - it'sjust really bad. and does the dental practice where you work i it'sjust really bad. and does the i dental practice where you work takes on new patients? ida. how do you feel on new patients? ijr. how do you feel about that? on new patients? no. how do you feel about that? it's _ on new patients? no. how do you feel about that? it's just _ on new patients? no. how do you feel about that? it's just really _ on new patients? no. how do you feel about that? it'sjust really sad, - about that? it's 'ust really sad, ve , about that? it's 'ust really sad, very. very — about that? it's 'ust really sad, very. very sad. _ about that? it'sjust really sad, very, very sad. residents i about that? it'sjust really sad, very, very sad. residents are l about that? it'sjust really sad, i very, very sad. residents are being neglected and itjust needs to be sorted out by the government, fast. —— patients. i sorted out by the government, fast. -- patients-— sorted out by the government, fast. -- atients. ., ., ., ., . -- patients. i want to go to waseem, a dentist in _ -- patients. i want to go to waseem, a dentist in east _ -- patients. i want to go to waseem, a dentist in east london, _ -- patients. i want to go to waseem, a dentist in east london, it _ -- patients. i want to go to waseem, a dentist in east london, it is - -- patients. i want to go to waseem, a dentist in east london, it is all i a dentist in east london, it is all yours, what would you like to say? hi, nicky how are you? i am yours, what would you like to say? hi, nicky how are you?— hi, nicky how are you? i am for. desperate _ hi, nicky how are you? i am for. desperate stuff _ hi, nicky how are you? i am for. desperate stuff here _ hi, nicky how are you? i am for. desperate stuff here from i hi, nicky how are you? i am for. i desperate stuff here from people. absolutely, it is heartbreaking. nicky at the outset of the programme you said you are registered with a dental practice, and my good friend eddie will correct me if i am wrong but actually since 2006, the nhs removed registration took over as such so patient are actually only registered with a practice for a course of treatment that they actually have, after that, the patient is left unregistered, if you like. most practices will see them for a period of 10—12 months afterwards, what has happened is basically for those who have not been for 15 months, suddenly they phone up and they say, i have been registered... and the practice actually has not got the uda capacity any more, so these residents suddenly become, if you like, unregistered. so the government has changed that model and where it was ok with having some form of system where a patient was registered with a practice, it gave that surety that they would be seen over a period of 24 months if they needed to, that has kind of gone as well. so, a lot of patients get caught out by that. the second point i also wanted to make, and again, eddie, hopefully i not wrong on this, but a net spend on nhs dentistry has not increased in 20 years, and that is the biggest problem, we have got a significant lack of funding, and whenever there is a good incentive that comes out, basically, it is because of finances, ultimately, it isjust pushed to one side and moved away. for example in london, there is a really good system, and this is one of the positives which should actually help one of your earlier callers, jo, in london they recognised that root canals were very, very technically challenging and time—consuming for a very busy nhs dentist to do so they created a thing called a tier 2 system where slightly enhanced practitioners who take expertise in root canals and will do it on a referral basis in london. that has worked really, really well. that is any patient whether you are private or nhs, your dentist refers you to the tier 2 system, there is an enhanced nhs dentist to see you for root canal. yes, there is a waiting list but it is better than having the tooth taken out. but the problem is the pressure on that system is now people are saying, well, the powers that be are so young, we are spending a lot of money on this. but the problem is you are going to have to spend money for people to have a solution. and then obviously you have got those who have got significant high need, and my colleague in manchester khalid said the same thing, the amount of time you actually have to spend doing treatment and everything, you are then penalised if you don't meet your uda target. so, you could help the gentleman who just called in who had, my heart went out to him because it is so bad and if the dentist now spends time sorting him out and getting him the better quality of life that let's be honest we all deserve and we should have in this country, the dentist is going to be penalised, and money is going to be penalised, and money is going to be penalised, and money is going to be taken away, and to be honest with you, people and nurses like claire, they get significantly underpaid, the dental practice as economic pressures as well and it is a very, very sorry cycle that we are living in, unfortunately. i have read around £400 million allocated for dental care went and spent this year because of a shortage of dentists willing to do nhs work, it was a record underspend which could have provided millions of extra appointments at a time when, as you know, many people are struggling to be seen. another recommendation here, the cross—party committee say this, and i quote, "the government and nhs england have not fully grasp the scale of the challenge for the workforce and need to urgently provide compelling incentives to attract new and existing dentists to undertake nhs work. john in brighton, we will talk about your son. latte work. john in brighton, we will talk about your son.— work. john in brighton, we will talk about your son. we moved to the uk last ear, about your son. we moved to the uk last year, returned _ about your son. we moved to the uk last year, returned to _ about your son. we moved to the uk last year, returned to the _ about your son. we moved to the uk last year, returned to the uk - about your son. we moved to the uk last year, returned to the uk about i last year, returned to the uk about a year ago, i've been trying to get my seven—year—old son registered at a dental practice. i've been looking at a 30 or 40 minute drive radius of our home and none of the practices are taking patients, including children, orwill only are taking patients, including children, or will only take patients transferring from another practice, so not taking patients who have immigrated into the country or returned to the country. that is where we are at. so i'm looking at just private care, really. we will be going back to thailand maybe every other year, i willjust take in to a dentist there. it is every other year, i will 'ust take in to a dentist there. it is because ou have in to a dentist there. it is because you have come — in to a dentist there. it is because you have come back, _ in to a dentist there. it is because you have come back, you - in to a dentist there. it is because you have come back, you have i in to a dentist there. it is because you have come back, you have hitj in to a dentist there. it is because i you have come back, you have hit a brick wall? mi; you have come back, you have hit a brick wall?— brick wall? my son had never been reaistered brick wall? my son had never been registered as _ brick wall? my son had never been registered as a _ brick wall? my son had never been registered as a dentist _ brick wall? my son had never been registered as a dentist in - brick wall? my son had never been registered as a dentist in the i brick wall? my son had never been registered as a dentist in the uk i registered as a dentist in the uk because we had always lived abroad. does he have a specific problem? ida. does he have a specific problem? no, 'ust need does he have a specific problem? no, just need to — does he have a specific problem? my. just need to check ups, really. exactly, which you need to have at that age. thank you, john. can't thank you all enough for getting in touch. this one is really busy, we are trying to keep up with the calls and texts. "i work for nhs, i give patients the emergency dental number and they call back in tears because there are another appointment is left is by calling when the line first opens," that is mary. "i had really bad toothache on holiday in spain and was able to visit three different dentists, gods and on the day appointments, the final one diagnosed it and improved it, each visit is less than 100 euros. i do not see a spanish person walking into a dentist here and having the same day extraction for £100, something is desperately wrong." more to come. it is rounded at the moment with people wanting to talk about this and we really appreciate it, it is so important. it is 9:33am. bethan holmes has the news. a report by a cross—party group of mps into nhs dentistry is calling for "urgent and fundamental reform," describing the lack of access to dental care as "totally unacceptable." last year a bbc survey found 90% of practices across the uk were refusing to take new adult nhs patients. the government says it invests more than £3 billion a year into dentistry. hollywood actors have started their biggest strike in 40 years after major studios and streaming services failed to agree a deal with the screen actors guild about pay and the impact of artificial intelligence. it's bringing a halt to most us film and tv productions. a strike by thousands of writers has also been taking place since may in the us. the unite union has announced almost 1,000 workers at gatwick airport, including baggage handlers and check—in staff, will stage eight days of strikes from the end of this month. it's in a dispute about pay. it's been confirmed lisa marie presley died of a bowel obstruction. it was caused as a result of adhesions from weight loss surgery she underwent several years ago. she died at the age of 54 injanuary. those were the news headlines — with the sport, here'sjohn bennett. good morning. novak djokovic will be looking to reach a record 35th grand slam singles final as he takes onjannik sinner in the first of two wimbledon men's semifinals today. in the other match, carlos alcaraz takes on daniil medvedev. coverage on 5 live from 1pm. in football, declan rice's move to arsenal for 105 million is expected to be completed today. mikel arteta's squad travel to washington on sunday for the start of arsenal's three match pre—season tour. meanwhile new promoted luton town have signed tahith chong from birmingham. at the para athletics world championships, hannah cockroft won her sixth t34 100m world title. in golf, south korea's ben an is the clubhouse leader at the scottish 0pen after his first round. rory mcilory is in tied second on 6 under and will be teeing off after 1pm. and it's back to the mountains at the tour de france today so jonas vingegaard's17—second advantage over his big rival tadej pogacher could be put to the test. —— toe touch parker girl. let me mark your card for ten o'clock, you can hear it on bbc radio 5 live, bbc sounds and also bbc two and bbc news. we will talk about the very moving, disturbing and challenging interview from dele alli. disturbing and challenging things happened in his life and he felt everything was so much better, he credits his adoptive parents with saving his life. he was adopted when he was 12. i was adopted, i have a burning interest, but back in those days it was infants who were adopted because of societal moors and the stigmas that were in society about single mothers —— societal mores. the average age for adoption now is older, about three and a half, and there are specific and particular challenges and when it works out it is just wonderful, of course, challenges and when it works out it isjust wonderful, of course, but sometimes it does not, so we want to explore older adoptions. 08085 909693 and 85058. derek in stockport, how do we fix nhs dentistry? something rotten at the heart of it and in many people's mouths, too. what is your problem? i have had gingivitis for a while, i looked after my teeth the best that i could. i have to go through a private dentist, there is no way i can get into nhs, i have tried for years and can't get in one, it is impossible. i have an emergency appointment today, i had to go to a private dentist every three months paying around £65 for a clean, which is not a massive amount. it is enough- _ is not a massive amount. it is enough- you _ is not a massive amount. it is enough. you had _ is not a massive amount. it is enough. you had to _ is not a massive amount. it is enough. you had to keep i is not a massive amount. it is i enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i— enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i will— enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i will be _ enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i will be in _ enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i will be in all- enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i will be in all sorts i enough. you had to keep doing it otherwise i will be in all sorts ofl otherwise i will be in all sorts of pain. i'm taking tablets for the pay now which were meant for a bad back ages ago, which i didn't need to take the full course —— taking tablets for the pain. it’s take the full course -- taking tablets for the pain.— tablets for the pain. it's a prescription _ tablets for the pain. it's a prescription volta - tablets for the pain. it's a prescription volta role i tablets for the pain. it's a prescription volta role or| prescription volta role or something?— prescription volta role or. something?_ that prescription volta role or- something?_ that one something? naproxen. that one doesnt something? naproxen. that one doesn't harm — something? naproxen. that one doesn't harm your _ something? naproxen. that one doesn't harm your stomach i something? naproxen. that one doesn't harm your stomach that | something? naproxen. that one i doesn't harm your stomach that you doesn't harm your stomach that you do not want to take it for too long? no, and i've been taking them on and off for a couple of months. they take £51 off me before i even got to the appointment yesterday, just in case you cancel. they are always taking money in advance so you do not miss appointments.— not miss appointments. cheers, derek. i don't _ not miss appointments. cheers, derek. i don't mean _ not miss appointments. cheers, derek. i don't mean to - not miss appointments. cheers, derek. i don't mean to be i not miss appointments. cheers, derek. i don't mean to be brisk, not miss appointments. cheers, . derek. i don't mean to be brisk, we value every call up at so many people are calling us. sally and saint all still? i people are calling us. sally and saint all still?— people are calling us. sally and saint all still? i would like to add that the circus _ saint all still? i would like to add that the circus of _ saint all still? i would like to add that the circus of 111 _ saint all still? i would like to add that the circus of 111 does - saint all still? i would like to add that the circus of 111 does not - that the circus of 111 does not work — that the circus of 111 does not work i— that the circus of 111 does not work. i had an abscess and i phoned the emergency treatment centre with an abscess _ the emergency treatment centre with an abscess and they said because my face was _ an abscess and they said because my face was not — an abscess and they said because my face was not swollen, which it wasn't, — face was not swollen, which it wasn't, because the abscess was on the front_ wasn't, because the abscess was on the front of— wasn't, because the abscess was on the front of my mouth. basically they said — the front of my mouth. basically they said they would not see me, it was hot _ they said they would not see me, it was not an— they said they would not see me, it was not an emergency. i actually called _ was not an emergency. i actually called 111— was not an emergency. i actually called 111 and theyjust said you need _ called 111 and theyjust said you need to— called 111 and theyjust said you need to get back to the emergency team, _ need to get back to the emergency team, and — need to get back to the emergency team, and then search you need to be seen _ team, and then search you need to be seen i_ team, and then search you need to be seen i did _ team, and then search you need to be seen. i did that and they still would — seen. i did that and they still would not see me, i ended up pulling the tooth— would not see me, i ended up pulling the tooth out. what was that like? it was _ the tooth out. what was that like? it was awful, i have pulled two out now, _ it was awful, i have pulled two out how. one — it was awful, i have pulled two out how. one at — it was awful, i have pulled two out now, one at the back, and i'm also in agony— now, one at the back, and i'm also in agony with— now, one at the back, and i'm also in agony with a denture that i have that is— in agony with a denture that i have that is broken. it moves around, cut all my— that is broken. it moves around, cut all my mouth. it that is broken. it moves around, cut all my mouth-— all my mouth. it is dreadful to be in this situation. _ all my mouth. it is dreadful to be in this situation. i _ all my mouth. it is dreadful to be in this situation. i have _ all my mouth. it is dreadful to be in this situation. i have two - all my mouth. it is dreadful to be in this situation. i have two back| in this situation. i have two back teeth that _ in this situation. i have two back teeth that you _ in this situation. i have two back teeth that you really _ in this situation. i have two back teeth that you really need - in this situation. i have two back| teeth that you really need seeing in this situation. i have two back . teeth that you really need seeing to before _ teeth that you really need seeing to before i_ teeth that you really need seeing to before i have to pull them out. it isjust— before i have to pull them out. it isjust unbearable, my before i have to pull them out. it is just unbearable, my quality of life has— is just unbearable, my quality of life has gone. find isjust unbearable, my quality of life has gone-— isjust unbearable, my quality of life has gone. and constant pain? yes. how life has gone. and constant pain? yes- how do _ life has gone. and constant pain? yes. how do you _ life has gone. and constant pain? yes. how do you go _ life has gone. and constant pain? yes. how do you go about - life has gone. and constant pain? yes. how do you go about pulling j life has gone. and constant pain? - yes. how do you go about pulling out a tooth in that _ yes. how do you go about pulling out a tooth in that situation, _ yes. how do you go about pulling out a tooth in that situation, do - yes. how do you go about pulling out a tooth in that situation, do you - a tooth in that situation, do you have somebody to help you? i was a tooth in that situation, do you have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain. _ have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain. i— have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain, i used _ have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain, i used part _ have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain, i used part -- - have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain, i used part -- i - have somebody to help you? i was in so much pain, i used part -- i used l so much pain, i used part —— i used appliance _ so much pain, i used part —— i used appliance with _ so much pain, i used part —— i used appliance with a cloth over. goodness me, sally. -- appliance with a cloth over. goodness me, sally.- appliance with a cloth over. goodness me, sally. -- i used liers. goodness me, sally. -- i used pliers- and _ goodness me, sally. -- i used pliers- and you _ goodness me, sally. -- i used pliers. and you have _ goodness me, sally. -- i used pliers. and you have tried - goodness me, sally. -- i used i pliers. and you have tried dentist after dentist _ pliers. and you have tried dentist after dentist but _ pliers. and you have tried dentist after dentist but they _ pliers. and you have tried dentist after dentist but they are - pliers. and you have tried dentist after dentist but they are not - after dentist but they are not taking on new patients? l after dentist but they are not taking on new patients? i came down to cornwall due _ taking on new patients? i came down to cornwall due to _ taking on new patients? i came down to cornwall due to domestic- taking on new patients? i came down to cornwall due to domestic violence| to cornwall due to domestic violence and i to cornwall due to domestic violence and i am _ to cornwall due to domestic violence and i am a _ to cornwall due to domestic violence and i am a home is now and quite happy. _ and i am a home is now and quite happy, apart from my mouth —— and i am a home is now and quite happy, apart from my mouth -- | and i am a home is now and quite happy, apart from my mouth —— i have a new— happy, apart from my mouth —— i have a new home _ happy, apart from my mouth —— i have a new home now and i'm quite happy, apart— a new home now and i'm quite happy, apart from _ a new home now and i'm quite happy, apart from my mouth. in a a new home now and i'm quite happy, apart from my mouth.— apart from my mouth. in a far better lace, but apart from my mouth. in a far better place. but then _ apart from my mouth. in a far better place, but then you _ apart from my mouth. in a far better place, but then you have _ apart from my mouth. in a far better place, but then you have this - apart from my mouth. in a far better place, but then you have this going i place, but then you have this going on. and also i am reading this morning that rural areas... i will throw this to samuel, an nhs dentist in bristol, noti million miles away from you in the great scheme of things. samuel, it is a blight, as we heard, on people's lives. welcome to the programme.— to the programme. thank you for havin: to the programme. thank you for having me- _ to the programme. thank you for having me. terrible? _ to the programme. thank you for having me. terrible? we - to the programme. thank you for having me. terrible? we hear- to the programme. thank you for- having me. terrible? we hear stories like that on — having me. terrible? we hear stories like that on a — having me. terrible? we hear stories like that on a daily _ having me. terrible? we hear stories like that on a daily basis, _ having me. terrible? we hear stories like that on a daily basis, from - having me. terrible? we hear stories like that on a daily basis, from the i like that on a daily basis, from the moment we switch on our phones in the morning, overnight via e—mail, messenger on social media sites, stories like that come up day in, day out. it is awful and horrible to see. ~ . , ., day out. it is awful and horrible to see, ~ ., , ., , day out. it is awful and horrible to see. . ., , ., , ., day out. it is awful and horrible to see-_ that - day out. it is awful and horrible to see-_ that is i day out. it is awful and horrible to i see._ that is the see. what is to be done? that is the key question. _ see. what is to be done? that is the key question, isn't _ see. what is to be done? that is the key question, isn't it? _ see. what is to be done? that is the key question, isn't it? it _ see. what is to be done? that is the key question, isn't it? it will - key question, isn't it? it will be horrible but it all comes down to funding. the government needs to put together a contract suitable for dentists which helps fund the need for patients. at the moment, patients are being priced out of being able to get the treatment that they need. they tend to come requiring emergency appointments and can only cover the cost of the emergency treatment. they do not come in for the follow—up treatment thatis come in for the follow—up treatment that is needed because of cost, they do not come and sit with the dentist and have diet and hygiene advice and get the information and the techniques that they need to maintain their good oral health when they are not sitting at the dentist and therefore prevent any problems from happening in the future. nhs dentists tend to end up firefighting and only putting out... dealing with just the page shouldn't�*s emergency and waiting until they come back with an next emergency —— the patient�*s emergency. once you have a dental emergency, your options become very limited. and dental emergency, your options become very limited.— become very limited. and very expensive- _ become very limited. and very expensive. good _ become very limited. and very expensive. good points, - become very limited. and very expensive. good points, it- become very limited. and very expensive. good points, it is. become very limited. and very l expensive. good points, it is not just treatment, it is ongoing advice. linda, i know you have to go... it advice. linda, i know you have to no... , advice. linda, i know you have to| go- - -_ aseptic go... it is absolutely fine. aseptic cum, go... it is absolutely fine. aseptic gum. goodness- _ go. .. it is absolutely fine. aseptic gum, goodness. i— go... it is absolutely fine. aseptic gum, goodness. i have _ go... it is absolutely fine. aseptic gum, goodness. i have had - go... it is absolutely fine. aseptic| gum, goodness. i have had dental treatment since _ gum, goodness. i have had dental treatment since i _ gum, goodness. i have had dental treatment since i was _ gum, goodness. i have had dental treatment since i was 16 _ gum, goodness. i have had dental treatment since i was 16 at - gum, goodness. i have had dental treatment since i was 16 at the - gum, goodness. i have had dental. treatment since i was 16 at the same dentist, _ treatment since i was 16 at the same dentist, i_ treatment since i was 16 at the same dentist, i have an amazing dentist. my dentist— dentist, i have an amazing dentist. my dentist retired and i have a new dentist— my dentist retired and i have a new dentist which is going amazingly. i have a _ dentist which is going amazingly. i have a problem, he does not do the oral problem with extractions etc but i _ oral problem with extractions etc but i have — oral problem with extractions etc but i have always had regular... hygiene — but i have always had regular... hygiene treatments, but for many years— hygiene treatments, but for many years i_ hygiene treatments, but for many years i had — hygiene treatments, but for many years i had suffered with my gums. i have a _ years i had suffered with my gums. i have a really— years i had suffered with my gums. i have a really septic tooth which is near— have a really septic tooth which is near to— have a really septic tooth which is near to the — have a really septic tooth which is near to the very front of my mouth and since — near to the very front of my mouth and since last year i have been on a list to— and since last year i have been on a list to get— and since last year i have been on a list to get the oral surgery, to have — list to get the oral surgery, to have it — list to get the oral surgery, to have it taken out. it got so inflamed _ have it taken out. it got so inflamed in october i had to go on antibiotics, — inflamed in october i had to go on antibiotics, i can't take penicillin so i antibiotics, i can't take penicillin so i was — antibiotics, i can't take penicillin so i was on _ antibiotics, i can't take penicillin so i was on the list for guy's and eastland — so i was on the list for guy's and eastland is — so i was on the list for guy's and eastland is cetera, never heard anything — eastland is cetera, never heard anything. when i am away, because i look after— anything. when i am away, because i look after my grandchildren, i had to go— look after my grandchildren, i had to go on— look after my grandchildren, i had to go on antibiotics because it was so inflamed. every time i eat, i had to wash _ so inflamed. every time i eat, i had to wash with— so inflamed. every time i eat, i had to wash with salt water to clean it because _ to wash with salt water to clean it because pus runs down all the time, from _ because pus runs down all the time, from the _ because pus runs down all the time, from the bottom of the gun —— top of the gun— from the bottom of the gun —— top of the gun through the teeth. so then i have to _ the gun through the teeth. so then i have to put — the gun through the teeth. so then i have to put on gum gel and every time _ have to put on gum gel and every time i_ have to put on gum gel and every time i eat— have to put on gum gel and every time i eat i— have to put on gum gel and every time i eat i can no longer take in food _ time i eat i can no longer take in food because once i have eaten the luiti food because once i have eaten the gum i_ food because once i have eaten the gum i had — food because once i have eaten the gum i had to put treatment on the gum. _ gum i had to put treatment on the gum, so _ gum i had to put treatment on the gum, so i — gum i had to put treatment on the gum, so i can'tjust have a snack without— gum, so i can'tjust have a snack without cleansing my mouth because it builds _ without cleansing my mouth because it builds up _ without cleansing my mouth because it builds up and gets really inflamed. this year my dentist centre. — inflamed. this year my dentist centre. i— inflamed. this year my dentist centre, i was called in on during the 12th — centre, i was called in on during the 12th to— centre, i was called in on during the 12th to guy's hospital. obviously i was seen by a trainee dentist, — obviously i was seen by a trainee dentist, priorto obviously i was seen by a trainee dentist, prior to that, obviously i was seen by a trainee dentist, priorto that, three obviously i was seen by a trainee dentist, prior to that, three or four— dentist, prior to that, three or four weeks— dentist, prior to that, three or four weeks before, i went to see a private _ four weeks before, i went to see a private dentist. by this time i had received — private dentist. by this time i had received a — private dentist. by this time i had received a letter from guy's, he said _ received a letter from guy's, he said i_ received a letter from guy's, he said i think— received a letter from guy's, he said i think it is this tooth but because — said i think it is this tooth but because it _ said i think it is this tooth but because it will be expensive for me to locate _ because it will be expensive for me to locate because there are three which _ to locate because there are three which are — to locate because there are three which are highly infected because of the pus— which are highly infected because of the pus being around all three, they could _ the pus being around all three, they could not— the pus being around all three, they could not locate the actual one so this particular private dentist said it would _ this particular private dentist said it would cost me quite a lot, he said _ it would cost me quite a lot, he said go— it would cost me quite a lot, he said do and _ it would cost me quite a lot, he said go and see them at guy's and if you have _ said go and see them at guy's and if you have a _ said go and see them at guy's and if you have a problem i can try to guide _ you have a problem i can try to guide you _ you have a problem i can try to guide you betting here it will cost you a _ guide you betting here it will cost you a of— guide you betting here it will cost you a of money. so guide you betting here it will cost you a of money-— you a of money. so did you eventually _ you a of money. so did you eventually go _ you a of money. so did you eventually go private? - you a of money. so did you eventually go private? i - you a of money. so did you l eventually go private? i went you a of money. so did you - eventually go private? i went to him rivatel to eventually go private? i went to him privately to get _ eventually go private? i went to him privately to get advice, _ eventually go private? i went to him privately to get advice, he _ eventually go private? i went to him privately to get advice, he wanted . privately to get advice, he wanted to know _ privately to get advice, he wanted to know what it was going to cost you take — to know what it was going to cost you take out the tooth. it would have _ you take out the tooth. it would have cost — you take out the tooth. it would have cost around £200 just for him to have _ have cost around £200 just for him to have a _ have cost around £200 just for him to have a look. and because i had the guy's— to have a look. and because i had the guy's letter for an appointment after all— the guy's letter for an appointment after all these months, the guy's letter for an appointment afterallthese months, i the guy's letter for an appointment after all these months, i showed him and he _ after all these months, i showed him and he said _ after all these months, i showed him and he said go to guy's and let them -ive and he said go to guy's and let them give you _ and he said go to guy's and let them give you the — and he said go to guy's and let them give you the x—ray, the 3d and he said go to guy's and let them give you the x—ray, the sd or whatever— give you the x—ray, the sd or whatever you need. give you the x—ray, the sd or whateveryou need. did give you the x—ray, the sd or whatever you need. did you eventually have to go private? yes. and i_ eventually have to go private? yes. and i will— eventually have to go private? yes. and i will tell you what guy's did. allow— and i will tell you what guy's did. allow me — and i will tell you what guy's did. allow me to skip guy's because i need to speak to others too but i value your call. how much has it cost you and might it cost you? £1700, because they have to put in a replacement because otherwise all the other— replacement because otherwise all the other teeth around it will collapse _ the other teeth around it will colla se. , ., ., ., collapse. lets me move it on. that was suitably _ collapse. lets me move it on. that was suitably and _ collapse. lets me move it on. that was suitably and properly - collapse. lets me move it on. that was suitably and properly graphic l was suitably and properly graphic and it is stuff we need to know, one of the most graphic things was £1700. jo in portsmouth, dental nurse, what are your comments? good morninu. i nurse, what are your comments? good morning- i have — nurse, what are your comments? good morning. i have been _ nurse, what are your comments? good morning. i have been a _ nurse, what are your comments? (limp. morning. i have been a dentistry for 35 or 36 years and i have seen all manner of everything from the 80s up to now and it has changed enormously through lack of funding and the contracts being wrong and not fit for purpose. but i want to put the other side, for purpose. but i want to put the otherside, nhs for purpose. but i want to put the other side, nhs dentists, the time thatis other side, nhs dentists, the time that is wasted daily of people not bothering to turn up to their appointments. we see practices with appointments. we see practices with appointments that have been allocated to nhs patients and they don't turn up. but it's time that could be on all of your callers, used effectively on all of those callers to get them out of the problems they are having, but they just don't turn up. so when derek in stockport said he pays in advance so people do not cancel or waste time, thatis people do not cancel or waste time, that is what it is for, the overhead in a dental practice is massive but most importantly it's getting patients seen and when they don't turn up it is so frustrating because we all know the list of people that need to be seen, who could be there. all of your callers could actually be seen, the units of dental activity could be fulfilled but instead we sit around and can't do anything because people to some degree take advantage. l anything because people to some degree take advantage.— degree take advantage. i want to ick u- degree take advantage. i want to pick up this _ degree take advantage. i want to pick up this point _ degree take advantage. i want to pick up this point and _ degree take advantage. i want to pick up this point and i _ degree take advantage. i want to pick up this point and i am - degree take advantage. i want to pick up this point and i am glad l degree take advantage. i want to i pick up this point and i am glad you have made it, there is a bigger point, khalid anis, a dentist, is with us, a man who is passionate about wanting to help people in manchester and chester. there are two things, there are those who do not show but there is also a personal responsibility, how much of factor is this for own teeth? today we are going to desperate situations, but a general message. i situations, but a general message. i know i have shared stories with you before, especially if i'm seeing children coming into my practice and sadly there is so much decay in their mouth the child might be three years old and when i'm pointing this out the parents are kind of shouting at the child to say why are you eating and drinking this, when it is the parental responsibility to do that. i think there is a really important notion that we as individuals take our health into our hands in the best way possible. that does not in any way detract from the awful stories we have been hearing today sometimes people just need a helping hand. i have many patients who say i have neglected my dental care but i really now want to take ownership of it and i want to move forward and be as healthy as possible. for me, it was music to my ears, when i hear that one of my patients really wants to care about their oral health, that is what i am here for. i will go out of my way to help them achieve what they want to but there is definitely a case about education, whether in schools... ever more important. the gentleman who came on earlier to talk about his child having regular access to dental care and because of the habits that the bills, the child get used to coming to the dental practice, they are not in fear of it. of course prevention is always better, always, always better than any kind of treatment we need to be doing. any kind of treatment we need to be doin. _ , ., ., any kind of treatment we need to be doin. _ ,., ., ., any kind of treatment we need to be doinu. ,., ., ., ., doing. good morning, har'eet in slou~h. doing. good morning, har'eet in slough. thank * doing. good morning, har'eet in slough. thank you t doing. good morning, har'eet in slough. thank you for_ doing. good morning, harjeet in slough. thank you for having - doing. good morning, harjeet in. slough. thank you for having me. doing. good morning, harjeet in i slough. thank you for having me. i have been going — slough. thank you for having me. i have been going through _ slough. thank you for having me. i have been going through this - slough. thank you for having me. i have been going through this pain| have been going through this pain for the _ have been going through this pain for the last couple of months, trying — for the last couple of months, trying to— for the last couple of months, trying to get an appointment from dentists~ — trying to get an appointment from dentists. it is shocking that i could — dentists. it is shocking that i could not— dentists. it is shocking that i could not get an appointment because i am could not get an appointment because i am an— could not get an appointment because i am an nhs patient and they don't want to— i am an nhs patient and they don't want to see me. no i am an nhs patient and they don't want to see me.— i am an nhs patient and they don't want to see me. no one wants to see ou? no, want to see me. no one wants to see you? no. they — want to see me. no one wants to see you? no. they are — want to see me. no one wants to see you? no, they are not _ want to see me. no one wants to see you? no, they are not taking - want to see me. no one wants to see you? no, they are not taking new- want to see me. no one wants to see | you? no, they are not taking new nhs atients. you? no, they are not taking new nhs patients- the — you? no, they are not taking new nhs patients. the dentist _ you? no, they are not taking new nhs patients. the dentist i _ you? no, they are not taking new nhs patients. the dentist i am _ patients. the dentist i am registered with, they do not have appointments, so i went to a different— appointments, so i went to a different sentence, an emergency appointment, and that cost £80 just to -o appointment, and that cost £80 just to go and _ appointment, and that cost £80 just to go and see. if i go private eye would _ to go and see. if i go private eye would see — to go and see. if i go private eye would see a dentist the same day or next day— would see a dentist the same day or next day because the root canal you suggested _ next day because the root canal you suggested i need to have, because i have an _ suggested i need to have, because i have an infection, it will cost me maybe _ have an infection, it will cost me maybe £1400, £1500, it will be over £1000 _ maybe £1400, £1500, it will be over £1000 but— maybe £1400, £1500, it will be over £1000 but you get 0% finance. i don't _ £1000 but you get 0% finance. i don't want — £1000 but you get 0% finance. i don't want to have this on finance, 0% interest — don't want to have this on finance, 0% interest. it is a lot of money for us _ 0% interest. it is a lot of money for us and — 0% interest. it is a lot of money for us and i_ 0% interest. it is a lot of money for us and i can't afford to pay £1400 — for us and i can't afford to pay £1400 i— for us and i can't afford to pay £1400. i am living with the pain because — £1400. i am living with the pain because i— £1400. i am living with the pain because i can't afford to pay this much _ because i can't afford to pay this much. ~ . , ., because i can't afford to pay this much. . ., , ., ~' because i can't afford to pay this much. ., , ., ~ ., because i can't afford to pay this much. . , ., ,, ., ., much. what is that pain like on a daily basis? _ much. what is that pain like on a daily basis? i— much. what is that pain like on a daily basis? i cannot _ much. what is that pain like on a daily basis? i cannot eat - much. what is that pain like on a daily basis? i cannot eat on - much. what is that pain like on a daily basis? i cannot eat on my l much. what is that pain like on a i daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side, i daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side. i have — daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side. i have to _ daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side, i have to be _ daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side, i have to be very _ daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side, i have to be very careful, - daily basis? i cannot eat on my left side, i have to be very careful, i'm| side, i have to be very careful, i'm eating _ side, i have to be very careful, i'm eating on — side, i have to be very careful, i'm eating on the _ side, i have to be very careful, i'm eating on the opposite side. they .ave eating on the opposite side. they gave me — eating on the opposite side. they gave me antibiotics when i had my emergency appointment at the beginning of this month, just after the antibiotics the pain was a bit less _ the antibiotics the pain was a bit less i_ the antibiotics the pain was a bit less liust— the antibiotics the pain was a bit less. ijust take paracetamol or ibuprofen — less. ijust take paracetamol or ibuprofen but it is not good on your stomach— ibuprofen but it is not good on your stomach when you are taking painkillers. i don't know what to do. painkillers. i don't know what to do i_ painkillers. idon't know what to do i can't— painkillers. i don't know what to do. i can't afford this much money. i do. i can't afford this much money. i don't _ do. i can't afford this much money. i don't know— do. i can't afford this much money. i don't know what to do, i can't afford this much money, that is a refrain throughout the calls from our brilliant viewers and listeners. thank you so much, harjeet. i wish everybody well in their battle to be seen. louise, we have two and a half minutes. you have had to pay? to minutes. you have had to pay? if? enable me to get the children under nhs i have had to go at the same practice private, so i'm paying for private and they basically told me before she would see the children, i have had to pay £49.60 just to be seen, just to go there, and i had to be very regular with my appointments. the children under nhs will be seen twice a year, so because i am paying, my teeth are now more important over birds and to me it should not be like that, it is not fair. ibis me it should not be like that, it is not fair. �* , . me it should not be like that, it is not fair. . , . ., , me it should not be like that, it is not fair. . , . .,, me it should not be like that, it is not fair. . , ., ., ., not fair. as khalid was saying, oral health for children _ not fair. as khalid was saying, oral health for children is _ not fair. as khalid was saying, oral health for children is a _ not fair. as khalid was saying, oral health for children is a necessary l health for children is a necessary habit to get into and know about and realise the importance of. yes. habit to get into and know about and realise the importance of.— realise the importance of. yes, i 'ust think realise the importance of. yes, i just think it _ realise the importance of. yes, i just think it is _ realise the importance of. yes, i just think it is terrible, _ realise the importance of. yes, i just think it is terrible, just - just think it is terrible, just because you are private. bond just think it is terrible, just because you are private. and i right in sa inc because you are private. and i right in saying you _ because you are private. and i right in saying you are — because you are private. and i right in saying you are another— because you are private. and i right in saying you are another person i because you are private. and i right. in saying you are another person who had to pull your own tooth out? filth. had to pull your own tooth out? 0h, m aosh, had to pull your own tooth out? oh, my gosh. yeah- _ had to pull your own tooth out? oi my gosh, yeah. that had to pull your own tooth out? ©“i my gosh, yeah. that was had to pull your own tooth out? ©“i. my gosh, yeah. that was terrible. had to pull your own tooth out? cannot fit you in. filth. wrong -- if you are under nhs, they cannot fit you in.— cannot fit you in. oh, my goodness, a screwdriver. _ cannot fit you in. oh, my goodness, a screwdriver. don't _ cannot fit you in. oh, my goodness, a screwdriver. don't do _ cannot fit you in. oh, my goodness, a screwdriver. don't do it. _ cannot fit you in. oh, my goodness, a screwdriver. don't do it. how i cannot fit you in. oh, my goodness, a screwdriver. don't do it. how do i a screwdriver. don't do it. how do you get treated? thank you all very much indeed, thanks to our dentists too, always great to talk to you, khalid anis. let's try to get screwdrivers and pus out of our heads and talk about something amazing, adoption, and something which is very challenging, ultimate option. —— older adoption. so there has been an extraordinary interview with dele alli on gary neville's podcast, extraordinarily moving as well. he has revealed that he was abused at the age of six, smoking at the edge of seven, dealing drugs at the age of eight, hung off a bridge by the man from the next estate at the edge of 11, at 12, adopted, and he credits his adopted parents with saving his life. 12 years old, order adoption, in our day and age, it happens more and more for reasons that it is not too hard to work out, where there are fewer and fewer infants, very, very young children, being adopted, which means the situation for me in my day back in the '60s, and there are huge challenges because sometimes it is recommended that a relationship is maintained with biological parents, that was the case with him but that relationship broke down, there can be problems with bonding, people who adopt are amazing people and the authorities are keen to keep children with their biological parents wherever possible. all sorts of stuff goes on, it is very complex, we are complex creatures, human beings, it means it can be even more difficult when it finally becomes untenable, impossible. so if you have adopted, fostered, taken on that responsibility of raising a child, tell us about the challenges and problems and successes. and how it can change everybody�*s life. and here is the news, from bethan holmes. the chair of the british dental association, eddie crouch, has told nicky campbell on 5 live that this is the "last chance for nhs dentistry" if a report by a group of mps is not acted on. the cross—party report is calling for "urgent and fundamental reform". last year a bbc survey found 90% of practices across the uk were refusing to take new adult nhs patients. the government says it invests more than £3 billion a year into dentistry. the unite union has announced almost 1,000 workers at gatwick airport will stage eight days of strikes from the end of this month in a dispute about pay. the workers who don't work for the airport but at four firms include baggage handlers and ground staff. hollywood actors are walking off set in their biggest strike in 40 years after talks with major studios and streaming services broke down. the screen actors guild wants increased fees for repeats and assurances about the use of artificial intelligence. india's space agency is preparing to launch a mission to the moon. it should be lifting off in a couple of minutes' time. the mission should get there by the end of august and it will deploy a rover to explore the moon's south pole. i love you to the moon and back. this is about love, what we are going to talk about in the next hour, and i really want you to talk about it, because you have incredible experiences to share. in my day, nine years old i was when i was adopted, taken to a baby home for the next three months, that may probably have had an effect in the long term, that is between me and my therapist, but the social worker arrived at the boardinghouse in portobello in edinburgh and i was then taken nine days old from my birth mother. and then i had the most wonderful adoption and my real mum and dad are my adoptive mum and dad. and goodness only knows, i would have been a different person otherwise. but modern adoption, very different, we live in a different world, it is not frowned upon to have a child out of, to use that dreadful word, wedlock, it is not stigmatised, thank goodness, but the children adopted self—evidently have had different experiences and awareness, acute awareness, of everything that has happened and why, very often, and at three years old, a deep sense of, three years old, a deep sense of, three years old is the average age of children adopted now, massive challenges to surmount but with massive rewards as well. we are discussing this because of an extraordinary interview with the footballer dele alli who was adopted at 12 years old. craig and bromfield coming up, jill in ipswich, alison woodhead, director of public affairs at adoption uk. good morning, alison. so, those particular problems i say problems, but challenges won't as we have got to say, alison, being a parent anyway is a massive challenge, remember doing a programme on adoption and people were talking about, to me, interviewing parents talking about adoption, of children may be four, five, six years old, sibling groups and they were saying, we're really worried about what happens when there children are teenagers, they may reject me. and i said, listen, i have got teenagers, and they are my biological children, but there is a lot of that anyway! but anyway, tell us about the situation with older children in our day and age? 50. situation with older children in our day and age?— day and age? so, as you said, the averaue day and age? so, as you said, the average age _ day and age? so, as you said, the average age is _ day and age? so, as you said, the average age is about _ day and age? so, as you said, the average age is about three - day and age? so, as you said, the average age is about three years i day and age? so, as you said, the i average age is about three years and three months for adoption at the moment in the uk, and so my own daughter came to me when she was five, that was not considered old, but it goes without saying that by the time a child is three or five, they have lived a lot of life, three years or five years is a long time to have a bunch of traumatic and very challenging experiences. my own daughter had, i was herfifth family, so she had had three different foster families before she came to. that has lasting impacts, thatis came to. that has lasting impacts, that is absolutely inevitable, that despite the fact that adoption was the right choice for her, being firstly separated from her birth family and then moved around in foster care so much has had a lasting impact on her relationships, the way that she attaches or doesn't attach to people, her trust in adults and her mental health, to be honest. and that is incredibly common, we find that about 70% of adoptees have sought help for their mental health at some point in their lives, which is exponentially greater than the average. now, with older adoptions it is incredibly unusualfor a child to be adopted older adoptions it is incredibly unusual for a child to be adopted as old as 12. as was the case with dele alli. almost unheard of, actually. and that is because the system seeks to place children in permanent families as quickly as possible, because then that stability is the thing that gives them the right foundations to have the best chance to thrive. far foundations to have the best chance to thrive. . ., , . to thrive. far more difficult with ethnic minority _ to thrive. far more difficult with ethnic minority children - to thrive. far more difficult with ethnic minority children as i to thrive. far more difficult with j ethnic minority children as well, because it is important, seen by the professionals, if you think it through rightly and properly that there is an ethnic match, and that is more difficult? it there is an ethnic match, and that is more difficult?— is more difficult? it is. there is a bunch of children _ is more difficult? it is. there is a bunch of children who _ is more difficult? it is. there is a bunch of children who wait i is more difficult? it is. there is a i bunch of children who wait longer, who spend longer in foster care waiting for placement, older children is one of them, aged five and above, children from ethnic minority backgrounds, children with disabilities, all of those groups of children wait longer to find a family, and that is something that the system is trying to address at the system is trying to address at the moment, getting people to come forward to a willing to take on those potentially more, go to children, but equally, joys and rewards with every individual child, of course. �* , rewards with every individual child, of course. . , ,., rewards with every individual child, ofcourse. . , , . of course. and it is so difficult because people _ of course. and it is so difficult because people are _ of course. and it is so difficult because people are damned l of course. and it is so difficult because people are damned if of course. and it is so difficult i because people are damned if they of course. and it is so difficult - because people are damned if they do and damned if they don't. there is the accusation that if the child is not kept with the birth family long enough, they are taken away too soon, and then there is the other side of the coin, isn't there, that they were not taken away soon enough. they were not taken away soon enou:h. . they were not taken away soon enouih. . ., ., ., they were not taken away soon enoth. ., ., ., ., ., ., enough. yeah, and who would want to be a social worker? _ enough. yeah, and who would want to be a social worker? it _ enough. yeah, and who would want to be a social worker? it is _ enough. yeah, and who would want to be a social worker? it is an _ be a social worker? it is an incredibly difficultjob, and particularly those social workers who are making that decision to remove the child from the birth family, it is not something anybody wants to do and not something anybody takes lightly and it is only done when it is not considered safe for the child to continue to live in the birth family. that separation from the birth family is in itself traumatic and it's really important we remember that. but often by the time a child is given an adoption order, that decision is taken that it is the right choice for them, that family will have had several years of intervention, of help and support, the child may have been in and out of care during that time, it is not something that is taken lightly. it is not something that is taken liihtl . , ,., is not something that is taken liihtl. , ,�* is not something that is taken liihtl. , , ,�* lightly. it is so complex, isn't it? we will get _ lightly. it is so complex, isn't it? we will get other _ lightly. it is so complex, isn't it? we will get other voices - lightly. it is so complex, isn't it? we will get other voices on, i lightly. it is so complex, isn't it? we will get other voices on, but | lightly. it is so complex, isn't it? | we will get other voices on, but it is so interesting and in sporting important to speak to you at the top, alison. you could be in a situation, and there have been many situations, where the birth mother is in a terrible situation and people look at what is going on in her life and think of the child needs to be adopted, and then she gets her life together. and then she gets her life together. and then she gets her life together. and then she gets her life together and we think, goodness me, we are heading in the right direction, and then, i don't want to stereotype, but then, a new boyfriend comes along, or a new partner, and he is bad news, and so it gets into another situation. you kind of get that to—ing and fro—ing, and it is so difficult to make that decision. it and it is so difficult to make that decision. , ' . and it is so difficult to make that decision. , , . ., ., decision. it is difficult and of course, decision. it is difficult and of course. the _ decision. it is difficult and of course, the exceptions i decision. it is difficult and of course, the exceptions to i decision. it is difficult and of| course, the exceptions to the decision. it is difficult and of i course, the exceptions to the rule are wonderful stories and i was talking to a birth man the other day who had two of her children removed and has turned her life around and has a birth child that she was able to keep and is living a rich and rewarding life with that child and thatis rewarding life with that child and that is uppishly what we want to happen. but multiple removals of children is really common. we are talking about families, generally speaking, with generational inequality and poverty and disadvantage. birth mums with children who, often that has happened elsewhere in theirfamily, often they are repeating patterns of abuse and trauma that they themselves have experienced, so, it is very sad, and obviously the other side of this picture is that we have to do more to support birth families tuesday together in the first place so that their children don't end up having to be removed, but that when they are removed, for their own safety, then we also need a better system of support for things like obtaining lifelong links with their family, and that is another subject that we might want to get into, because increasingly, maintaining contact with birth family after adoption is considered to be an incredibly important part, where it is safe, for a child chooses ability to understand their story, their background, their life story. age—appropriate. background, their life story. ai-ie-aro-riate. �* . age-appropriate. age-appropriate, but my own — age-appropriate. age-appropriate, but my own daughter— age-appropriate. age-appropriate, but my own daughter has _ age-appropriate. age-appropriate, but my own daughter has contact, i but my own daughter has contact, direct relationships, with all four of her... ., ., ,., direct relationships, with all four of her... ., ., ., of her... how do you feel about that? i of her. .. how do you feel about that? i will— of her... how do you feel about that? i will tell _ of her... how do you feel about that? i will tell you _ of her... how do you feel about that? i will tell you why, i of her... how do you feel about i that? iwill tell you why, because i that? i will tell you why, because i was chatting many times about this before my mum died, she was a social worker, but talking about that contact, although she gave me all the details and age—appropriate time and she showed me how to trace them, later on in life, but she said to in a very candid situation, i'm not sure i would have been, if we, you and your dad, would have been comfortable with that. has its challenges for adoptive parents? it does, it is incredibly complicated, highly emotional. a couple of years ago my daughter said to me i really want to meet my birth mum and i really struggled with it, i will be honest, and most people do. i think there is a difference between contact with siblings and birth parents, because the reality is that those birth parents, they have the responsibility to keep your child safe and they didn't, and so if you have got anger and resentment and distress towards birth parents, not towards siblings and wider family, erm... towards siblings and wider family, erm. .. r . , towards siblings and wider family, erm. .. ~ . , . erm. .. anger and resentment and distrust, that _ erm. .. anger and resentment and distrust, that is _ erm. .. anger and resentment and distrust, that is interesting, i erm. .. anger and resentment and distrust, that is interesting, threej distrust, that is interesting, three very interesting words. i distrust, that is interesting, three very interesting words.— very interesting words. i think it is inevitable, _ very interesting words. i think it is inevitable, you _ very interesting words. i think it is inevitable, you take _ very interesting words. i think it is inevitable, you take the i very interesting words. i think it is inevitable, you take the child | very interesting words. i think it i is inevitable, you take the child on love them, you see the damage that was done to them in their early years, at the same time you can sympathise with the circumstances that the birth family were in, and their own disadvantage and whatever circumstances lead them to not be able to care for their children and have those multiple, five kids removed from them, and at the same time you can feel very angry about that, these are complex emotions that, these are complex emotions that we all as doctors feel, i think. , , , . ., think. gill in ipswich, hello. i believe you _ think. gill in ipswich, hello. i believe you used _ think. gill in ipswich, hello. i believe you used to - think. gill in ipswich, hello. i believe you used to be i think. gill in ipswich, hello. i believe you used to be a - think. gill in ipswich, hello. i. believe you used to be a foster carer, tell us about the specific challenges of older children, whether they be in a foster home or in a forever home?— in a forever home? basically, as our in a forever home? basically, as your guest _ in a forever home? basically, as your guestiust _ in a forever home? basically, as your guestjust mentioned, - in a forever home? basically, as| your guestjust mentioned, there in a forever home? basically, as i your guestjust mentioned, there is always— your guestjust mentioned, there is always going to be trauma of some sort, _ always going to be trauma of some sort, becausejust always going to be trauma of some sort, because just leaving their birth_ sort, because just leaving their birth family is a huge, in itself without— birth family is a huge, in itself without anything else having happened around it, and generally a lot of— happened around it, and generally a lot of horrible stuff has happened around _ lot of horrible stuff has happened around it — lot of horrible stuff has happened around it. we specialise in teenagers, people whose placement has broken down because they have -ot has broken down because they have got to— has broken down because they have got to the _ has broken down because they have got to the stage where people couldu't— got to the stage where people couldn't deal with their emotional upset, _ couldn't deal with their emotional upset, plus growing into adults. fortunately we had had five teenagers ourselves in very quick succession — teenagers ourselves in very quick succession so we were geared for it, but nevertheless, the challenge you face is, _ but nevertheless, the challenge you face is, you — but nevertheless, the challenge you face is, you don't know what kind of reaction _ face is, you don't know what kind of reaction they are going to have to your home, — reaction they are going to have to your home, and they are, if you like. _ your home, and they are, if you like. large — your home, and they are, if you like, large children who can actually— like, large children who can actually do quite a lot of damage initially. — actually do quite a lot of damage initially. if— actually do quite a lot of damage initially, if they get upset, that anger, — initially, if they get upset, that anger, that resentment, that distress. _ anger, that resentment, that distress, is going to come out, and it might _ distress, is going to come out, and it might come out in your home. did that it might come out in your home. that happen? it might come out in your home. did that happen? on — it might come out in your home. did that happen? on several _ it might come out in your home. did that happen? on several occasions, | that happen? on several occasions, es. what that happen? on several occasions, yes- what did _ that happen? on several occasions, yes. what did happen? _ that happen? on several occasions, yes. what did happen? i _ that happen? on several occasions, yes. what did happen? i continue . that happen? on several occasions, | yes. what did happen? i continue of a ounu yes. what did happen? i continue of a young gentleman _ yes. what did happen? i continue of a young gentleman who _ yes. what did happen? i continue of a young gentleman who got - yes. what did happen? i continue of a young gentleman who got very - yes. what did happen? i continue of l a young gentleman who got very cross with us _ a young gentleman who got very cross with us one _ a young gentleman who got very cross with us one day because we tried to enforce _ with us one day because we tried to enforce a _ with us one day because we tried to enforce a curfew on him and he found a paving _ enforce a curfew on him and he found a paving stab— enforce a curfew on him and he found a paving slab laying about in the street _ a paving slab laying about in the street so — a paving slab laying about in the street so he smashed all the windows on nry— street so he smashed all the windows on my husband's car and then tried to do— on my husband's car and then tried to do mine, — on my husband's car and then tried to do mine, and mine was a little stronger— to do mine, and mine was a little stronger and it wouldn't go and he told everybody at school when i worked — told everybody at school when i worked that i had bullet—proof windows— worked that i had bullet—proof windows the next morning. then he came _ windows the next morning. then he came in— windows the next morning. then he came in and — windows the next morning. then he came in and threatened to actually do it in— came in and threatened to actually do it in the — came in and threatened to actually do it in the conservatory, at which point, _ do it in the conservatory, at which point, iry— do it in the conservatory, at which point, by then, the social worker was there — point, by then, the social worker was there and the police were there, they took— was there and the police were there, they took him away and they said, we will bring _ they took him away and they said, we will bring him back to apologise the next day _ will bring him back to apologise the next day. and we said, well, what is the plan? _ next day. and we said, well, what is the plan? they said we are going to put him _ the plan? they said we are going to put him in _ the plan? they said we are going to put him in emergency care overnight and then— put him in emergency care overnight and then we — put him in emergency care overnight and then we will have to look for another— and then we will have to look for another placement, and i said, why? and they said, well, surely you won't _ and they said, well, surely you won't have _ and they said, well, surely you won't have him back now? and we said, _ won't have him back now? and we said. well, — won't have him back now? and we said, well, there is a reason why he has done _ said, well, there is a reason why he has done that, let's hear what he has done that, let's hear what he has got _ has done that, let's hear what he has got to— has done that, let's hear what he has got to say. and he came in the neck— has got to say. and he came in the neck day— has got to say. and he came in the neck day and — has got to say. and he came in the neck day and he didn't apologise because — neck day and he didn't apologise because it — neck day and he didn't apologise because it wasn't in his nature to, and i_ because it wasn't in his nature to, and i knew— because it wasn't in his nature to, and i knew that, but he did look suitably— and i knew that, but he did look suitably chastened and we said, what happened? _ suitably chastened and we said, what happened? he said, iwas suitably chastened and we said, what happened? he said, i was really, really— happened? he said, i was really, really angry, you were trying to control— really angry, you were trying to control me. so we said, we can talk about— control me. so we said, we can talk about that, — control me. so we said, we can talk about that, but you have just had three _ about that, but you have just had three really good months with us, do you want— three really good months with us, do you want to _ three really good months with us, do you want to go somewhere else? and he said _ you want to go somewhere else? and he said no, _ you want to go somewhere else? and he said no, he didn't. and he said, canwe— he said no, he didn't. and he said, can we forget _ he said no, he didn't. and he said, can we forget this, then? and go forward _ can we forget this, then? and go forward from here? actually, he is a loveiy— forward from here? actually, he is a loveiy tad _ forward from here? actually, he is a lovely lad now, obviously well into his 30s _ lovely lad now, obviously well into his 30s family and he's doing a reaity— his 30s family and he's doing a really good job, and the high hope he recognises himself because i have -ot he recognises himself because i have got every— he recognises himself because i have got every respect for him. but that is perhaps— got every respect for him. but that is perhaps an extreme example, you have had _ is perhaps an extreme example, you have had other examples of hurling coffee _ have had other examples of hurling coffee tables across the room and hurting _ coffee tables across the room and hurting a — coffee tables across the room and hurling a biscuit to at me, but that is by— hurling a biscuit to at me, but that is by no _ hurling a biscuit to at me, but that is by no means the most common reaction — is by no means the most common reaction. others go very quiet, teenagers _ reaction. others go very quiet, teenagers try very hard to please my husband _ teenagers try very hard to please my husband said to ii—day, do you know what. _ husband said to ii—day, do you know what. i_ husband said to ii—day, do you know what. ithink— husband said to ii—day, do you know what, i think if you could just get past something that he was doing wrong. _ past something that he was doing wrong, you could do really well in life, wrong, you could do really well in life. and — wrong, you could do really well in life. and he — wrong, you could do really well in life, and he burst into tears and said. _ life, and he burst into tears and said, nobody has ever told me i could _ said, nobody has ever told me i could do— said, nobody has ever told me i could do well before, they have always — could do well before, they have always said i will never amount to anything — always said i will never amount to anything. so, i mean, you see all sorts— anything. so, i mean, you see all sorts and — anything. so, i mean, you see all sorts and regardless of what it says on the _ sorts and regardless of what it says on the paperwork, you have got to expect— on the paperwork, you have got to expect whatever and run with the person _ expect whatever and run with the person concerned and learn to know that child _ person concerned and learn to know that child i— person concerned and learn to know that child. i have immeasurable respect — that child. i have immeasurable respect for. parents, i think you are special— respect for. parents, i think you are special people. and respect for. parents, i think you are special people.— respect for. parents, i think you are special people. and you dealt with that situation _ are special people. and you dealt with that situation superbly. - are special people. and you dealt with that situation superbly. i've | with that situation superbly. i've got to say. i suppose experience helps. riff got to say. i suppose experience hels. .., , got to say. i suppose experience hels. , ., , a got to say. i suppose experience hels. , .,, a helps. of course it does. as i say, we had come _ helps. of course it does. as i say, we had come ourselves _ helps. of course it does. as i say, we had come ourselves from - helps. of course it does. as i say, we had come ourselves from two| we had come ourselves from two broken _ we had come ourselves from two broken marriages and teenagers who all had _ broken marriages and teenagers who all had their own problems, some of which _ all had their own problems, some of which we _ all had their own problems, some of which we dealt with well and some of which _ which we dealt with well and some of which we _ which we dealt with well and some of which we didn't, is the truth. but you learn— which we didn't, is the truth. but you learn from that and you move forward _ you learn from that and you move forward. . . you learn from that and you move forward. , , ,., you learn from that and you move forward. , , ., forward. yes, it is parenting. you aet it forward. yes, it is parenting. you get it right. _ forward. yes, it is parenting. you get it right. you _ forward. yes, it is parenting. you get it right, you get _ forward. yes, it is parenting. you get it right, you get it _ forward. yes, it is parenting. you get it right, you get it wrong. - get it right, you get it wrong. yeah, exactly. and another thing i would _ yeah, exactly. and another thing i would say. — yeah, exactly. and another thing i would say, especially your dealing with older— would say, especially your dealing with older teenagers, is be honest. if with older teenagers, is be honest. if you're _ with older teenagers, is be honest. if you're not — with older teenagers, is be honest. if you're not sure, then say. we had one teenager — if you're not sure, then say. we had one teenager once who quite inadvertently tapped into the same kind of— inadvertently tapped into the same kind of bullying that i had had in a previous— kind of bullying that i had had in a previous relationship, and i was beginning — previous relationship, and i was beginning to respond to it, unfortunately we work for an agency and they— unfortunately we work for an agency and they provided therapy for me. we never— and they provided therapy for me. we never kept _ and they provided therapy for me. we never kept that secret from any of the children, we said you know, we have _ the children, we said you know, we have our— the children, we said you know, we have our own — the children, we said you know, we have our own problems sometimes, so we go _ have our own problems sometimes, so we go and _ have our own problems sometimes, so we go and get therapy. it is not abnorniak _ we go and get therapy. it is not abnormal-— we go and get therapy. it is not abnormal. �* . ~ we go and get therapy. it is not abnormal. �* ., ,, , ., abnormal. and what it like when you have wanted — abnormal. and what it like when you have wanted and _ abnormal. and what it like when you have wanted and they _ abnormal. and what it like when you have wanted and they leave? - abnormal. and what it like when you have wanted and they leave? , - abnormal. and what it like when you have wanted and they leave? , the l have wanted and they leave? , the same as when _ have wanted and they leave? , the same as when your _ have wanted and they leave? , the same as when your own _ have wanted and they leave? , the same as when your own children leave. _ same as when your own children leave, really. you get that sense of loss and _ leave, really. you get that sense of loss and disappointment but at the same _ loss and disappointment but at the same time you're really pleased that they're _ same time you're really pleased that they're moving on. what is harder is when _ they're moving on. what is harder is when social— they're moving on. what is harder is when social services remove them before _ when social services remove them before they are ready to go. that is quite _ before they are ready to go. that is quite difficult. but there are various— quite difficult. but there are various reasons for that happening, so i various reasons for that happening, so i am _ various reasons for that happening, so i am not — various reasons for that happening, so i am not being accusatory in anyway. — so i am not being accusatory in anyway, but that is hard, when you know _ anyway, but that is hard, when you know that — anyway, but that is hard, when you know that they actually don't want to go _ know that they actually don't want to go. they think that you're turfing — to go. they think that you're turfing them out and you're really not, turfing them out and you're really not. and — turfing them out and you're really not, and the only thing you can do, and we've — not, and the only thing you can do, and we've done a lot of that, with preparation — and we've done a lot of that, with preparation for new placements, the only thing _ preparation for new placements, the only thing you can do is say to them. — only thing you can do is say to them, look, this is deemed to be your— them, look, this is deemed to be your best — them, look, this is deemed to be your best opportunity, best chance, for you _ your best opportunity, best chance, for you to _ your best opportunity, best chance, for you to have a good life let's prepare — for you to have a good life let's prepare for it, and that is what we do. prepare for it, and that is what we do we _ prepare for it, and that is what we do we go— prepare for it, and that is what we do. we go through all the things that they— do. we go through all the things that they might need, all the things they might be able to do, what skills— they might be able to do, what skills might be helpful in the new placement, and try and prepare them for moving _ placement, and try and prepare them for moving on. placement, and try and prepare them for moving on-— placement, and try and prepare them for moving om— for moving on. because re'ection is art of for moving on. because re'ection is part of this. — for moving on. because re'ection is part of this, isn't h for moving on. because re'ection is part of this, isn't it? _ for moving on. because re'ection is part of this, isn't it? the _ for moving on. because rejection is part of this, isn't it? the absolute l part of this, isn't it? the absolute worst. part of this, isn't it? the absolute worst- and _ part of this, isn't it? the absolute worst. and with _ part of this, isn't it? the absolute worst. and with that _ part of this, isn't it? the absolute worst. and with that in _ part of this, isn't it? the absolute worst. and with that in mind, - part of this, isn't it? the absolute - worst. and with that in mind, weaved often _ worst. and with that in mind, weaved often been _ worst. and with that in mind, weaved often been the last stop because we have looked after teenagers, help them _ have looked after teenagers, help them through to independence, we have kept— them through to independence, we have kept in touch with all of those who want _ have kept in touch with all of those who want to, really. sometimes it is because _ who want to, really. sometimes it is because they don't have a functioning family to go back to, and sometimes it isjust because they want— and sometimes it isjust because they want to keep in touch and remember a they want to keep in touch and remembera time when they want to keep in touch and remember a time when they felt reasonably safe, you know? so, yeah, we are _ reasonably safe, you know? so, yeah, we are still— reasonably safe, you know? so, yeah, we are still in— reasonably safe, you know? so, yeah, we are still in touch with lots of them. — we are still in touch with lots of them, facebook is wonderful for that _ them, facebook is wonderful for that. . them, facebook is wonderful for that. , ., that. yes, the positive and wonderful— that. yes, the positive and wonderful side _ that. yes, the positive and wonderful side of - that. yes, the positive and wonderful side of social. that. yes, the positive and - wonderful side of social media do exactly. we have got but. haifa wonderful side of social media do exactly. we have got but. how are ou exactly. we have got but. how are you doing? — exactly. we have got but. how are you doing? how — exactly. we have got but. how are you doing? how are _ exactly. we have got but. how are you doing? how are you _ exactly. we have got but. how are you doing? how are you doing? i you doing? how are you doing? interesting. _ you doing? how are you doing? interesting, isn't _ you doing? how are you doing? interesting, isn't it? _ you doing? how are you doing? interesting, isn't it? isn't- you doing? how are you doing? interesting, isn't it? isn't it, . interesting, isn't it? isn't it, amazing. i am going to come to you in one second, i havejust amazing. i am going to come to you in one second, i have just got some breaking news which i am going to tell people. this is from the metropolitan police in the last few minutes, a man has been charged with the murder of two women and will appear in court today, carl cooper, charged with the murder of hunter who was 41 and 48—year—old fiona home. naomi was found dead last year, she had been stabbed, the owner was reported missing injune this year and was initially treated as a missing person investigation. searches are going on to find the body of fiona addresses and some open areas in south—east london. the families of naomi and fiona have been updated on this development and have been supported by specially trained officers. more on bbc news and radio 5 live throughout the day. we are talking about adoption, after an extraordinary interview with footballer dele alli who was adopted at 12, and the specific challenges of adopting older children, very much the norm, as compared with ancient history, my life, my time. but, you have got an incredible story, did you hear gill in ipswich, wow, yes, i did, it was a fantastic lesson and from my point of view... my lesson and from my point of view... my story is quite different. to support these children, give them a voice, because they need to be seen and heard and held and not onlyjust the children but also adoptees and foster carers as well, it is quite important for me to be able to support, because i spent the first 14 support, because i spent the first iii years of my life in children's homes, so it was pretty. 14 years of my life in children's homes, so it was pretty.- 14 years of my life in children's homes, so it was pretty. what was it? his strimmer, _ homes, so it was pretty. what was it? his strimmer, someone - homes, so it was pretty. what was. it? his strimmer, someone outside. it alwa s it? his strimmer, someone outside. it always happens — it? his strimmer, someone outside. it always happens when _ it? his strimmer, someone outside. it always happens when you - it? his strimmer, someone outside. it always happens when you least i it always happens when you least need it. but getting back to listening to both allison and jill, i mean, iam listening to both allison and jill, i mean, i am 100% in support of these foster carers and adoptees, they need the support, vital support, as much as our young children and teens. i work with action for children now, in alignment with them, i am trying to build a platform to help rejuvenate the care system. because it seems to be still in the dark ages in terms of how it is held and viewed, it is either the tracy beaker orchids are having fun, or it is, these kids are naughty and that is why they find themselves in care. i mean, for me, i spent the first iii years of life in children's homes because i was abandoned as a baby. what in children's homes because i was abandoned as a baby.— abandoned as a baby. what was it like ultimately, _ abandoned as a baby. what was it like ultimately, abandoned, - abandoned as a baby. what was it like ultimately, abandoned, is- abandoned as a baby. what was it l like ultimately, abandoned, is quite a word, isn't it? yeah. i am involved in a project on foundling. left, like leaving a bag in a supermarket, you forgot it. but abandonment means so much more, especially to the children, because the sense of emotional trauma, it is very hard for young kids to process that. and to actually express it, and that is why i have reached the grand old age of 62. hie! in my early grand old age of 62. no! in my early ares grand old age of 62. no! in my early ages i was too young and emotionally disturbed to step forward, especially when when i was competing, in my adopted family, and we conquered the world, if you don't know the story, my mother adopted me at the age of ia, someone said i was too institutionalised to be adopted, mother success stories, too. she was our mum mother success stories, too. she was your mum for — mother success stories, too. she was your mum for she _ mother success stories, too. she was your mum for she was, _ mother success stories, too. she was your mum for she was, and _ mother success stories, too. she was your mum for she was, and my - mother success stories, too. she was your mum for she was, and my two i your mum for she was, and my two brothers only have me has big sets. greg and kirk, and they were four. and when mum asked me to come and live with the family, i mean, it was unbelievable. i live with the family, i mean, it was unbelievable.— unbelievable. i had already started feelin: , unbelievable. i had already started feeling. what _ unbelievable. i had already started feeling, what is _ unbelievable. i had already started feeling, what is going _ unbelievable. i had already started feeling, what is going to _ unbelievable. i had already started feeling, what is going to happen i unbelievable. i had already started j feeling, what is going to happen to me, what is going to happen to my life? like so often you hear these older children say they are frightened, they fear what the future holds for them, and for me it was no different. sport was my saviour at school, without sport i don't think i would have survived going through my earlier childhood, and i also had a very special auntie help us kids in the home, auntie ray, and she humanised me and she taught me a really important lesson in life, and one day i asked her, i picked some flowers locally and i went and knocked on the door where she lived and when she opened the door i held the flowers out and i asked her, will you be my mummy? she said, look, fat, she said, we need to talk about this. come round the back and let's have a cup of tea, she said. she said, i can'tjust be money to you because i have to be mum to all the other children in the children's home. she said, but here is the thing, i am not always there, and you are, but you can help you can be their mummy, she said. and in giving, you will receive. and what that taught me, nicky, was that it swivelled the lens from looking within myself and being stuck in my head emotionally traumatised, in sharing love with those other children that were going through their difficulties, abandonment, neglect, rejection, call it whatever you want, it is a terribly emotionally traumatising for a youngster, to be left, because you start to think why me, what have i done? and so for me i was able to give a lot of love and support to these youngsters and i was only five or six myself. it was a big lesson that i learnt and i grew up not being a victim, i grew up learning to help others and i feel that the age of ia, it was 11, actually, i saw mary peters competing in the munich olympics and i suddenly realised, having been told constantly, when you're 16 we are going to move you up to boarding schools in london, you will amount to nothing, it is all prostitution and marijuana, you will end up on the streets, and i was petrified, so of course thought was the thing that i loved and when i saw mary peters winning the olympics in the pentathlon... winning the olympics in the pentathlon. . ._ winning the olympics in the pentathlon. .. yes, winning the olympics in the pentathlon... yes, i pentathlon. .. that big smile. yes, i suddenly realised, _ pentathlon. .. that big smile. yes, i suddenly realised, this _ pentathlon. .. that big smile. yes, i suddenly realised, this is _ pentathlon. .. that big smile. yes, i | suddenly realised, this is something i can do. it was a long way from being a champion, mind, from 11 years old, but at the age of 13 i started training and by god i met my mother when playing a netball match with my school against her school, it was a tough net format, i was... how old were you when you met your mother? ~ . . how old were you when you met your mother? ~ ., ., ., , how old were you when you met your mother? a, ., ., , " mother? margaret? i was 11. the thin . mother? margaret? i was 11. the thin isi mother? margaret? i was 11. the thing is i didn't _ mother? margaret? i was 11. the thing is i didn't know _ mother? margaret? i was 11. the thing is i didn't know her - mother? margaret? i was 11. the thing is i didn't know her then i mother? margaret? iwas11. the| thing is i didn't know her then she didn't know me, and the process of how it is, the story is documented but i willjust give you an outline so you understand how this all came together. i was quite loud on the pitch, i was captain, together. i was quite loud on the pitch, iwas captain, i together. i was quite loud on the pitch, i was captain, i was trying to motivate my team, and everybody was getting, it was a league match, final, and the whistle went and the lady said, young lady, keep the noise down or you will be off. and i sort of muttered and carried on and it got to 11—11, sort of muttered and carried on and it got to 11-11, 12-12, sort of muttered and carried on and it got to 11—11, 12—12, and i started raising my voice and elevating my team again and of course the whistle went again and she said i told you once i will not tell you again. long story short, after the match, it was donna, her team captain, fats, she said, she's quite strict, be quiet, she will send you off. so i behaved little bit. when i say behaved, when you are involved in a passionate affair like i was with my sport, the one true thing which gave me confidence, self—esteem, respect from my peers, whereas academically these kids are in care, they find it hard emotion tojust in care, they find it hard emotion to just concentrate, to study, so, this was my way of expressing myself and feeling good about myself you know, that is why i was so motivated. and i went on to a local athletic club with one of the girls who lived in the children's home. i said let's 9°. in the children's home. i said let's go, the athletics season has started. she went off to the sprinters and i saw a nice, tall spear. i went to pick it up, he said, you can't do that. he spoke to the coach treated shoppers who was directly behind the runner and he said, come, young lady, wait in the stand for the chaplain coach. i sat waiting and toe—tapping. —— wait at the stand for the javelin coach. lots of these kids are survivors, you have to be. i waited patiently for somebody to arrive and he said, here comes the coach. and this mini pulled up in the car park, i did a double take when i saw the person come out, it is the netball umpire. he went to introduce me and she said, i know who you are, you are fatima. let me tell you, young lady, any of that cheeky showed on the netball court, you will not be throwing anyjavelins. i cupped my hands that i said, i promise you, i will behave. after a couple of weeks she said, you have talent, why not ask your mum and dad to come and we can talk about getting uk to add it to a competition programme. ijust nodded my head and she said to the coach, what is wrong with fatima's hearing? every time i speak to her shejust nods her hearing? every time i speak to her she just nods her head. hearing? every time i speak to her shejust nods her head. he said, don't you know, she has no mum and dad, she lives in the children's homes. when i came back she gave me some boots, she said there are two sizes to be, but stuff them with paper and he is the javelin, you can start throwing. —— they are two sizes too big. in the summertime german students came to look after the kids in the children's homes, house parents were away on holidays and all of the children who could go home went home, there of us, long stay, who did not have parents, with state throughout. i said to ingrid, come into the garden, i will show you howl come into the garden, i will show you how i throw this javelin. i took a couple of throws to get up the garden when i turned around, i said, move out of the way, i will give it a really good throat. i did and it went right through the french windows. ingrid was shaking her head. she said, you will be in trouble with the house auntie. i got a month's ban and that word started getting back, this is whitbread thinks you bunked off with the chaplain and the boots, you are not interested any more, you sold it. —— mrs whitbread. i got an airmail envelope out, i said, sorry i can't come to javelin training, i smashed a french window so i have a month's mrs, but one day i would like to be the bestjavelin thrower in the world. i posted the envelope the next day, within two weeks i thought, she probably has not got this, but in two weeks she phoned up and the house auntie said, she has been naughty, she can't come. in the end i was allowed, mrs whitbread must have been very persistent. within two weeks she asked whether i would like to visit the family had had something to eat with them. i met the family, john, my dad, and my brothers, they only ever knew me as mrs because they were two wonderful. i was very good with children and i still am —— they only ever knew me as big sis. every child wants somebody to feel connected with, they want to feel loved, no matter their age, they want to feel loved, no matter theirage, every they want to feel loved, no matter their age, every child deserves a happy. their age, every child deserves a happy, safe and secure home life. this is what kids need. basically there are some tough ones and it is no wonder, they have gone through some big, traumatic times of abandonment and some abuse. i went through sexual, physical and mental abuse in my time as a child. it takes an extraordinary amount of hard work for any family, whether it be adoption orfoster hard work for any family, whether it be adoption or foster care, for families to work. we all have issues, we all have problems within our own families, it does not necessarily mean because you are going to foster or adopt a child that you will have trouble, i think it could be a very rewarding job, these children not only survive but they will thrive, given the opportunity. they will thrive, given the opportunity-— opportunity. your story is incredible, _ opportunity. your story is incredible, fatima. - opportunity. your story is incredible, fatima. i- opportunity. your story is| incredible, fatima. i know opportunity. your story is - incredible, fatima. i know people are being inspired by your story and you have said so many nuggets of truth from your own experience. it has been a privilege having you on and hearing from you this morning. fatima whitbread, what a story. thank you, fatima. hang on a minute! you get the idea. thanks again to fatima. let's get your thoughts, we come to call as soon but first bethan holmes has the news. eddie crouch, the chair of the british dental association, has told nicky campbell on 5 live if a report by a group of mps is not acted on, this is the last chance for nhs dentristry. the cross—party report is calling for urgent and fundamental reform. the government says it invests more than £3 billion a year into dentistry. but last year a bbc survey found 90% of practices across the uk were refusing to take new adult nhs patients. the unite union has announced almost 1,000 workers at gatwick airport will go on strike for eight days, starting from the end of the month. the walkout over pay affects baggage handlers and ground staff, who don't work for the airport but for four different firms. india's space agency has launched a mission to the moon. lift off, which took place about half hour ago, was described as normal. the mission should get there by the 23rd or 24th of august. if successful, india will become the lifourth nation to have landed on the moon. tens of thousands of hollywood actors are going on strike in a move that will shut down the vast majority of american film and television productions. their union — the screen actors guild — has concerns about the industry's use of artificial intelligence — and wants studios and and streaming giants to commit to a fairer split of profits. those were the news headlines, now john bennett has the sport. at wimbledon, jannick sinner says his semifinal against the seven—time winner novak djokovic will be a tactical battle. sinner was two sets to love up against djokovic at last year's championships before djokovic made a comeback to win in five. djokovic has called him a "complete player". in the other semifinal, carlos alcaraz takes on another former us open winner daniil medvedev. coverage on slive from 1pm. in football, arsenal are expected to confirm declan rice's move to the club from west ham today. and former southampton boss ruben selles has been confirmed as the new reading manager. in golf, south korea's ben an is still the leader at the scottish open with many players out for their second round. rory mcilory is in tied third on six under and will be teeing off at lunchtime. and in rugby union premiership clubs will take on championship sides for the first time in 18 years in a revamped premiership rugby cup. the pool stages of the competition will take place during the rugby world cup in france. fatima whitbread, what an amazing woman. what a response to her. "i listen while working, fatima's story stopped me dead." "i am crying listening to fatima, what an inspiration. beautiful lady." that is from frida. "wow, what a programme. i never respond to these things but i am knocked sideways by listening to that wonderful lady chill from ipswich and fatima." "what a lovely lady fatima is, good to hear a positive story after all the navel—gazing that has been going on this week." we are talking about ultra adoption because of an interview with dele alli this week. thank you for reaching out to us, trevor and alyssa. if anyone is watching, we have got you on the telly as well so you can hear and you can watch. older adoptions, tell us your story. it is you can watch. older adoptions, tell us your story-— us your story. it is not alyssa, it is alicia- — us your story. it is not alyssa, it is alicia. first _ us your story. it is not alyssa, it is alicia. first mistake, - us your story. it is not alyssa, it is alicia. first mistake, carry - us your story. it is not alyssa, it | is alicia. first mistake, carry on. look u- is alicia. first mistake, carry on. look up we _ is alicia. first mistake, carry on. look up we get _ is alicia. first mistake, carry on. look up we get it _ is alicia. first mistake, carry on. look up we get it always. - is alicia. first mistake, carry on. look up we get it always. we - is alicia. first mistake, carry on. - look up we get it always. we adopted al ssa look up we get it always. we adopted alyssa when — look up we get it always. we adopted alyssa when she _ look up we get it always. we adopted alyssa when she was _ look up we get it always. we adopted alyssa when she was six, _ look up we get it always. we adopted alyssa when she was six, but - look up we get it always. we adopted alyssa when she was six, but is - alyssa when she was six, but is still quite old, really. —— we adopted alicia when she was six. it has been a real roller—coaster. we are standing here today, alicia 22, she can speak for herself, she is 22 and it's going to have a baby at any time, could be in the next hour. mr; time, could be in the next hour. my goodness me, we will stay with you throughout the day on bbc news, radio 5 live the... congratulations. thank you. tell]! radio 5 live the... congratulations. thank you-— thank you. tell us about your famil , thank you. tell us about your family, forever _ thank you. tell us about your family, forever home - thank you. tell us about your family, forever home you - thank you. tell us about your family, forever home you 19. | thank you. tell us about your| family, forever home you 19. i thank you. tell us about your - family, forever home you 19. i don't really remember _ family, forever home you 19. i don't really remember much _ family, forever home you 19. i don't really remember much from - family, forever home you 19. i don'tj really remember much from before. family, forever home you 19. i don't i really remember much from before. -- really remember much from before. == forever really remember much from before. forever home really remember much from before. » forever home you came into. really remember much from before. -- forever home you came into. you i forever home you came into. you already had _ forever home you came into. you already had a _ forever home you came into. you already had a child, _ forever home you came into. you already had a child, my sister, which — already had a child, my sister, which was _ already had a child, my sister, which was a hard adjustment for us both _ which was a hard adjustment for us both she _ which was a hard adjustment for us both she is— which was a hard adjustment for us both. she is three years older than me, both. she is three years older than me. she _ both. she is three years older than me. she was — both. she is three years older than me, she was about nine when i came into the _ me, she was about nine when i came into the family, so being alone for nine years— into the family, so being alone for nine years and having some six—year—old annoying doncaster child _ six—year—old annoying doncaster child in— six—year—old annoying doncaster child in your face all the time is quite _ child in your face all the time is quite a — child in your face all the time is quite a lot— child in your face all the time is quite a lot to deal with. so we didn't— quite a lot to deal with. so we didn't particularly have the best relationship at the start, obviously it has— relationship at the start, obviously it has changed a lot now, we are best— it has changed a lot now, we are best friends and it is great, but it was a _ best friends and it is great, but it was a lot— best friends and it is great, but it was a lot for us both to deal with fans get— was a lot for us both to deal with fans get used to. i had a younger brother. — fans get used to. i had a younger brother. i— fans get used to. i had a younger brother, i was used to being the oldest. — brother, i was used to being the oldest, she was used to being the only child. — oldest, she was used to being the only child, it was a lot to wrap your— only child, it was a lot to wrap your head _ only child, it was a lot to wrap your head around, and also i was a pain. _ your head around, and also i was a pain. it— your head around, and also i was a pain. ittook— your head around, and also i was a pain. it tooka— your head around, and also i was a pain, it took a while to get used to. pain, it took a while to get used to i_ pain, it took a while to get used to i don't — pain, it took a while to get used to. i don't really remember much. i to. idon't really remember much. i think— to. i don't really remember much. i think being — to. i don't really remember much. i think being adopted or in foster care or— think being adopted or in foster care or anywhere where you are not with your _ care or anywhere where you are not with your biological parents, it is a lot— with your biological parents, it is a lotto _ with your biological parents, it is a lot to wrap your head around that to understand the feelings you are feeling _ to understand the feelings you are feeling it— to understand the feelings you are feeling. it is normal to feel like that but— feeling. it is normal to feel like that but you sort of feel like no one feels— that but you sort of feel like no one feels like that, if that makes any sense — one feels like that, if that makes any sense. you feel alone with your feelings _ any sense. you feel alone with your feelinas. . v . . , any sense. you feel alone with your feelinas. ., �*, , ., , , feelings. that's beautifully put, i do lona feelings. that's beautifully put, i do long lost _ feelings. that's beautifully put, i do long lost family— feelings. that's beautifully put, i do long lost family and - feelings. that's beautifully put, i do long lost family and i- feelings. that's beautifully put, i do long lost family and i had i feelings. that's beautifully put, i i do long lost family and i had spoken to people who were in care and went into a loving home and have absolutely no memory of their first five years in care, it has just been raised. it is really psychologically interesting. can i ask, are you still in touch with your brother? yes, i see my brother and my birth mum~ _ yes, i see my brother and my birth mum~ i_ yes, i see my brother and my birth mum~ ithink— yes, i see my brother and my birth mum. i think i saw them last christmas? mum. ithinki saw them last christmas?— mum. ithinki saw them last christmas? ., , [m christmas? your birthday in may. not this one, christmas? your birthday in may. not this one. my — christmas? your birthday in may. not this one. my last _ christmas? your birthday in may. not this one, my last one. _ christmas? your birthday in may. not this one, my last one. it _ christmas? your birthday in may. not this one, my last one. it was - christmas? your birthday in may. not this one, my last one. it was before l this one, my last one. it was before or after— this one, my last one. it was before or after christmas i went up and saw them _ or after christmas i went up and saw them i_ or after christmas i went up and saw them. i speak to my brother every day. them. i speak to my brother every day he _ them. i speak to my brother every day he is — them. i speak to my brother every day. he is 19, which is weird, because _ day. he is 19, which is weird, because when i left he was three years— because when i left he was three years old — because when i left he was three years old and coming back to bed he has grown _ years old and coming back to bed he has grown up and is now a teenager, grumpy— has grown up and is now a teenager, grumpyand— has grown up and is now a teenager, grumpy and all this. it is has grown up and is now a teenager, grumpy and all this.— grumpy and all this. it is a roller-coaster, _ grumpy and all this. it is a roller-coaster, like - grumpy and all this. it is a roller-coaster, like i i grumpy and all this. it is a roller-coaster, like i say. l grumpy and all this. it is a | roller-coaster, like i say. it grumpy and all this. it is a i roller-coaster, like i say. it was roller—coaster, like i say. it was like a well went when alicia joined us. we were quite arrogant, we thought we had a better chance and we were doing quite a good job and we were doing quite a good job and we had the time and we could do this thing —— it was like a whirlwind. and it was really, really, really, really tough. and probably tough until about three years ago, something like that.- until about three years ago, something like that. what was the tou . hest? something like that. what was the toughest? you _ something like that. what was the toughest? you don't _ something like that. what was the toughest? you don't mind - something like that. what was the toughest? you don't mind me i something like that. what was the i toughest? you don't mind me saying? alicia ran away — toughest? you don't mind me saying? alicia ran away from _ toughest? you don't mind me saying? alicia ran away from home, _ toughest? you don't mind me saying? alicia ran away from home, she i toughest? you don't mind me saying? alicia ran away from home, she was . alicia ran away from home, she was expeued alicia ran away from home, she was expelled from school at 15, she went back to her birth family. that did not work out. she came back, then went back to her birth family. she got into a bad crowd locally with some drugs and what have you. but, you know, wejust kept some drugs and what have you. but, you know, we just kept in touch, thatis you know, we just kept in touch, that is all we did. we always said, tomorrow, we start again. we have always said that. it has not been easy. it is a miracle to us she is now living in a flat with her boyfriend in our town, we arejust on her nursery right now, just putting the cart it together, trying to get stuff ready. —— just putting the cot together. there have been bumps along the way because early trauma is traumatic, who knows when it will crop up again? but we are so proud of her. we are so excited, and what can i say? this proud of her. we are so excited, and what can i say?— what can i say? this is your initiation — what can i say? this is your initiation into _ what can i say? this is your initiation into being - what can i say? this is your initiation into being a i what can i say? this is your- initiation into being a grandparent? how does that feel? my goodness. we how does that feel? my goodness. , had to be completely honest, when we found out we thought that is... going to be difficult for you. you have all these hopes and dreams and that kind of stuff but it has been an amazingly positive experience for alicia and us. we are so excited. it is a complex situation because we have us, we have the boyfriend's family and the birth family. it will be tricky to blend all that, not as tough for you because you have to try to keep everyone happy —— i suppose it is tough for you. that happens a lot in blended families, i suppose. you don't mind me saying this, we have gone through lots of therapy and support and things like having a baby for a looked after child can be a massive switch that gets turned on and it changes everything. alicia has created a nest for her baby which she never had. we will not go into the ins and outs but her started life was chaotic, ratherthan outs but her started life was chaotic, rather than anything else, and i don't think you ever had a space like we are standing it with a cot and a baby bath, and she has done it all herself. it is amazing. go back five years, we didn't see her, if we did she would be in and out and her room was just a tip and now she has turned into a mother, it is just awesome. the now she has turned into a mother, it is just awesome.— isjust awesome. the room being a ti is... isjust awesome. the room being a tip is... familiar. _ isjust awesome. the room being a tip is... familiar. it— isjust awesome. the room being a tip is... familiar. it is. _ isjust awesome. the room being a tip is... familiar. it is. and - isjust awesome. the room being a tip is... familiar. it is. and that. tip is... familiar. it is. and that is an interesting _ tip is... familiar. it is. and that is an interesting thing. - tip is... familiar. it is. and that is an interesting thing. as i tip is... familiar. it is. and that is an interesting thing. as we . tip is... familiar. it is. and that. is an interesting thing. as we were going through the preteen and teenage years, we would always let off steam to our friends about what was going on and we would always get, yeah, iwasjust like was going on and we would always get, yeah, i was just like that. was going on and we would always get, yeah, iwasjust like that. it is different. you join a new tribe when you become an adopted family and only others in that tribe understand those rules to any degree. as parents we found that really tough, you find out who your friends are because lots of people have lots of advice with absolutely no experience. that was tough but we got through it. hand no experience. that was tough but we got through it— got through it. and i wasn't easy. but who is? _ got through it. and i wasn't easy. but who is? that _ got through it. and i wasn't easy. but who is? that is _ got through it. and i wasn't easy. but who is? that is true. - got through it. and i wasn't easy. but who is? that is true. if i got through it. and i wasn't easy. but who is? that is true. if my i got through it. and i wasn't easy. i but who is? that is true. if my mum was still with — but who is? that is true. if my mum was still with us _ but who is? that is true. if my mum was still with us and _ but who is? that is true. if my mum was still with us and part _ but who is? that is true. if my mum was still with us and part of - but who is? that is true. if my mum was still with us and part of this i was still with us and part of this conversation, she would like to fly upon invitation to do so, you know? and teenagers in birth families can be tricky. and teenagers in birth families can betric , and teenagers in birth families can be tricky-_ i _ and teenagers in birth families can be tricky._ i think i and teenagers in birth families can be tricky._ i think that l be tricky. absolutely. i think that is a truism- _ be tricky. absolutely. i think that is a truism. it _ be tricky. absolutely. i think that is a truism. it is _ be tricky. absolutely. i think that is a truism. it isjust _ be tricky. absolutely. i think that is a truism. it isjust brilliant i is a truism. it is just brilliant you got in touch with us. alicia, good luck. you got in touch with us. alicia, good luck-— you got in touch with us. alicia, good luck-_ it - you got in touch with us. alicia, good luck._ it is i you got in touch with us. alicia, | good luck._ it is some good luck. thank you. it is some experience... _ good luck. thank you. it is some experience... i'm _ good luck. thank you. it is some experience... i'm told. - good luck. thank you. it is some experience... i'm told. thank i good luck. thank you. it is some | experience... i'm told. thank you both so much. just wonderful to talk to you both, trevor and alicia. stay there and listen to lauren in south—east england. there and listen to lauren in south-east england.- there and listen to lauren in south-east england. hello. can you hear me? yes- _ south-east england. hello. can you hear me? yes. how _ south-east england. hello. can you hear me? yes. how old _ south-east england. hello. can you hear me? yes. how old was - south-east england. hello. can you hear me? yes. how old was your. hear me? yes. how old was your dauuhter hear me? yes. how old was your daughter when _ hear me? yes. how old was your daughter when you _ hear me? yes. how old was your daughter when you adopted i hear me? yes. how old was yourj daughter when you adopted her? hear me? yes. how old was your- daughter when you adopted her? she was daughter when you adopted her? sue: was seven. adoption daughter when you adopted her? su2 was seven. adoption was something i had always wanted to do, there were a few positive stories of adoption around me, one of my cousins was adopted, another cousin adopted a little girl. prior to being adopted my daughter had been in care for two years and it is important to mention that her little brother who is disabled is still in care, social services had to make the difficult decision to separate the children, which is quite unusual. i think social services are very progressive about having sibling groups adopted together, but in my daughterpossible. so many positives about adoption. —— but in my daughter puts my case it was not possible. love at first sight, we immediately had a strong bond and i immediately had a strong bond and i immediately saw her as my own flesh and blood. she is making me a better version of myself, she has created friendships, she is trying very hard at school and she has gained a set of grandparents in france, we have travelled together to sri lanka, we are doing loads. it is an incredible journey. of course it is a challenging journey, as you can imagine. in fact, challenging journey, as you can imagine. infact, we challenging journey, as you can imagine. in fact, we were recently reminiscing about the first few weeks when my daughter moved in with me and i think she was really shell—shocked, she was silent for pretty much the best part of a week and i thought, wow, this is quite new to me. i was not expecting that because my daughter is now a chatterbox. it was just an incredible amount of change that she had gone through in herfirst seven years, five years with her birth parents, two in care and then adopted by a stranger, really. it hasjust adopted by a stranger, really. it has just been incredible, adopted by a stranger, really. it hasjust been incredible, it adopted by a stranger, really. it has just been incredible, it has been fantastic. she started off being really, really silent and then i think about 18 months to two years down the line, things really started to come out. she probably felt in a safe place, ready to talk, ready to share things that had happened in the past. it was pretty cathartic. we had very few late nights when i was just listening to what she had to say. se wasjust listening to what she had to sa _ ., ., wasjust listening to what she had to sa. ., ., wasjust listening to what she had tosa. ., ., , to say. so how old was she when you had these conversations? _ to say. so how old was she when you had these conversations? at - to say. so how old was she when you had these conversations? at the i to say. so how old was she when you| had these conversations? at the time erha -s had these conversations? at the time perhaps she — had these conversations? at the time perhaps she would _ had these conversations? at the time perhaps she would have _ had these conversations? at the time perhaps she would have been - had these conversations? at the time perhaps she would have been about l perhaps she would have been about nine. ,, a, perhaps she would have been about nine. ,, i, i, i, i, nine. quite a lot for a nine-year-old - nine. quite a lot for a nine-year-old to - nine. quite a lot for a nine-year-old to be l nine. quite a lot for a i nine-year-old to be able nine. quite a lot for a - nine-year-old to be able to nine. quite a lot for a _ nine-year-old to be able to talk nine—year—old to be able to talk about? galba absolutely. she went through therapy, which i think was of great help. through therapy, which i think was of great help-— through therapy, which i think was of great help. these are things that i think schools _ of great help. these are things that i think schools should _ of great help. these are things that i think schools should really - of great help. these are things that i think schools should really offer. i think schools should really offer to children who have gone through adoption. i think any form of therapy support is so, is so important for children. and important for children. and recommended _ important for children. and recommended by _ important for children. and recommended by the adoption professionals. but those late night conversations, that was a watershed moment and something changed? absolutely. it was really incredible. again, iwas absolutely. it was really incredible. again, i was worried and i think somebody previously mentioned, i am i think somebody previously mentioned, iam not i think somebody previously mentioned, i am not quite sure whether they will like me when they are teenagers. i was always worried that things could become very tricky when she would become a teenager, but when she started opening up, fairly early on i thought, right, i've got this, because if she is able to talk to me, she will be able to carry on talking to me and sharing things.— to carry on talking to me and sharing things. lauren, i have a text which _ sharing things. lauren, i have a text which just _ sharing things. lauren, i have a text which just says. .. - sharing things. lauren, i have a text which just says. .. i'm - text which just says... i'm interjecting rather rudely but this text addresses the issue. it says, i'm a parent of 18 and it is a roller—coaster whatever the situation. —— i am a parent of a teenager. ain't that the truth?! absolutely. my daughter was adopted, but because we have this communication, because she is able to share, i think we are stronger together as a result. in terms of challenges, i'm a single parent, i may professional so it is a juggle —— | may professional so it is a juggle —— i am a professional. i have a lot on, but at the same time it is equally rewarding. i think having support networks is really important. support networks is really important-— support networks is really imortant. ., ., important. you have said some amazin: important. you have said some amazing things _ important. you have said some amazing things and _ important. you have said some amazing things and i _ important. you have said some amazing things and i want - important. you have said some amazing things and i want to i important. you have said some l amazing things and i want to pick important. you have said some - amazing things and i want to pick up one thing and put it to kate. it was a gem, you said, she has made me a better version of myself, that is what you said. hi, katie. do you get that? ., , ., what you said. hi, katie. do you get that? ., -- what you said. hi, katie. do you get that?_ -- have _ what you said. hi, katie. do you get that?_ -- have your - what you said. hi, katie. do you get that?_ -- have your kids i that? have your -- have your kids made you — that? have your -- have your kids made you a _ that? have your -- have your kids made you a better _ that? have your -- have your kids made you a better version - that? have your -- have your kids made you a better version of - made you a better version of yourself?— made you a better version of ourself? , . n ., , made you a better version of ourself? , . ., , ~ yourself? yes, i am lucky to be mum to three wonderful— yourself? yes, i am lucky to be mum to three wonderful young _ yourself? yes, i am lucky to be mum to three wonderful young ladies - yourself? yes, i am lucky to be mum to three wonderful young ladies and | to three wonderful young ladies and grandma _ to three wonderful young ladies and grandma to two very small children, definitely— grandma to two very small children, definitely a — grandma to two very small children, definitely a better version of myself _ definitely a better version of m self. ., . . , , definitely a better version of m self. ., ., ., , , m myself. how did that happen? we lonr-term myself. how did that happen? we long-term foster _ myself. how did that happen? we long-term foster emma _ myself. how did that happen? we long-term foster emma and - myself. how did that happen? we | long-term foster emma and sarah myself. how did that happen? we - long-term foster emma and sarah when long—term foster emma and sarah when they were _ long—term foster emma and sarah when they were nine and seven, they are now 29— they were nine and seven, they are now 29 and — they were nine and seven, they are now 29 and 27. sarah still lives with_ now 29 and 27. sarah still lives with me. — now 29 and 27. sarah still lives with me, and lives with her fiance and is _ with me, and lives with her fiance and is getting married in september, she has_ and is getting married in september, she has a _ and is getting married in september, she has a little girl called ireland _ she has a little girl called ireland. and if he and i came to live with — ireland. and if he and i came to live with us _ ireland. and if he and i came to live with us when she was about 15 -- and _ live with us when she was about 15 —— and athena came to live with us. she was_ —— and athena came to live with us. she was only— —— and athena came to live with us. she was only there for about 12 months. — she was only there for about 12 months, she disappeared into the ether, _ months, she disappeared into the ether, att— months, she disappeared into the ether, all sorts went on, she vaguely— ether, all sorts went on, she vaguely kept in touch via facebook, she got— vaguely kept in touch via facebook, she got back in touch two or three years— she got back in touch two or three years ago. — she got back in touch two or three years ago. "i— she got back in touch two or three years ago, "i really need to sort my life out, _ years ago, "i really need to sort my life out, can — years ago, "i really need to sort my life out, can i — years ago, "i really need to sort my life out, can i be part of your life again?" — life out, can i be part of your life again?" so— life out, can i be part of your life again?" so she came, at that point she was— again?" so she came, at that point she was living with a drug dealer, it was— she was living with a drug dealer, it was all— she was living with a drug dealer, it was all a — she was living with a drug dealer, it was all a mess, she got out of that on— it was all a mess, she got out of that on her— it was all a mess, she got out of that on her own, we did not give her particular— that on her own, we did not give her particular support, now she is getting — particular support, now she is getting on with life and i am grandma to her little boy. it is fabulous. _ grandma to her little boy. it is fabulous, really. a roller-coaster? definitely- — fabulous, really. a roller-coaster? definitely. but _ fabulous, really. a roller-coaster? definitely. but teenagers - fabulous, really. a roller-coaster? definitely. but teenagers are - fabulous, really. a roller-coaster? definitely. but teenagers are a - definitely. but teenagers are a roller—coaster and i am not sure they— roller—coaster and i am not sure they stop — roller—coaster and i am not sure they stop until they hit about 50 to be honest — they stop until they hit about 50 to be honest. i they stop until they hit about 50 to be honest. . , they stop until they hit about 50 to be honest. ., , ., ., be honest. i am still on a roller-coaster. _ be honest. i am still on a roller-coaster. how- be honest. i am still on a - roller-coaster. how absolutely roller—coaster. how absolutely amazing. and grandma, too. yes. roller-coaster. how absolutely amazing. and grandma, too. yes. and to be chosen — amazing. and grandma, too. yes. and to be chosen to _ amazing. and grandma, too. yes. and to be chosen to be _ amazing. and grandma, too. yes. and to be chosen to be there _ amazing. and grandma, too. yes. and to be chosen to be there grandma - amazing. and grandma, too. yes. and to be chosen to be there grandma is l to be chosen to be there grandma is just _ to be chosen to be there grandma is just i_ to be chosen to be there grandma is just idon't— to be chosen to be there grandma is just... i don't know, i have no words — just... i don't know, i have no words. chosen as that, none of them had to— words. chosen as that, none of them had to choose me to be that. i am well enough now. —— i had to choose me to be that. i am well enough now. —— lam had to choose me to be that. i am well enough now. —— i am willing now _ well enough now. -- i am willing now. ., , well enough now. -- i am willing now. . ., well enough now. -- i am willing now. ., now. to be chosen to be a grandmother, _ now. to be chosen to be a grandmother, that - now. to be chosen to be a grandmother, that is - now. to be chosen to be a - grandmother, that is amazing. -- i with temperatures over 40 degrees celsius. wellinu grandmother, that is amazing. -- i wellin: u- grandmother, that is amazing. -- i grandmother, that is amazing. -- i wellin: u- grandmother, that is amazing. -- i welling up now- — welling up now- — grandmother, that is amazing. -- i grandmother, that is amazing. -- i welling up now. i— grandmother, that is amazing. -- i welling up now. i did _ grandmother, that is amazing. -- i welling up now. i— grandmother, that is amazing. -- i welling up now. i did _ grandmother, that is amazing. -- i welling up now. i did privilege. - welling up now. i did privilege. - welling up now. i did privilege. welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely- — welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the _ welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little - welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely- — welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the _ welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little - welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little boy - welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little boy is - welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little boy is so| absolutely. the little boy is so happy — absolutely. the little boy is so absolutely. the little boy - welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little boy is - welling up now. i did privilege. absolutely. the little boy is so| absolutely. the little boy is so happy — absolutely. the little boy is so happy and smiley, he gave me a hug happy and smiley, he gave me a hug the other— the other— happy and smiley, he gave me a hug the other day and itjust made me happy and smiley, he gave me a hug the other day and itjust made me cry, the other day and itjust made me cry. yes — the other day and it 'ust made me cry, the other day and itjust made me cry. yes — the other day and it 'ust made me c , es. �* , y the other day and it 'ust made me c , es. �* , y the other day and it 'ust made me cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you. _ cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you, kate, _ cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you. _ cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you, kate, _ cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you, kate, thank - cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you, kate, thank you, i cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. - thank you, kate, thank you, trevor thank you, kate, thank - cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. thank you, kate, thank you, i cry, yes. absolutely wonderful. - thank you, kate, thank you, trevor and alicia, thank you lauren. thank and alicia, thank you lauren. thank you, fatima whitbread for her you, fatima whitbread for her amazing contribution this morning. amazing contribution this morning. celsius. == alison woodhead, chill in ipswich. have a good weekend. live from london, this is bbc news india launches its third mission to the moon — aiming to be the first to land near the lunar south pole. hollywood actors join a strike by screenwriters — in the largest shutdown in the us film and tv industry — for 60 years. a deadly heatwave continues in parts of southern europe — with temperatures over a0 degrees we start with a historic mission to the moon, and the launch

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