to court to prevent ministers being forced to hand over their messages. the government defied the covid inquiry�*s 4 o'clock deadline to hand over material from borisjohnson related to the pandemic, and countered. with the public inquiry due to start in a fortnight, we'll be asking exactly how this is in the public interest. we'll be speaking to a kc who's a veteran of public inquiries past, a conservative party watcher and a leading lawyer. also tonight: the bbc interviews the poster boy for internet misogyny andrew tate, at present under house arrest in romania under suspicion of human trafficking and organised crime. i preach hard work, discipline. i'm an athlete. i preach anti—drug, i preach religion, i preach no alcohol. i preach... no knife crime. every single problem in modern society, i'm against. we'll bejoined by a prankster who ended up with a criminal record who says andrew tate is helping him mend his ways, and laura bates, the writer and founder of the everyday sexism project. and ahead of the government's expected apology and compensation for the treatment of lgbt+ members of the military when homosexuality was banned until 2000, we speak we speak to two former servicemen about their treatment and the impact on their lives. good evening. to some it might feel a bit like a looking glass world, when the former prime minister is now happy for his whatsapp messages and documents to be handed to the covid inquiry, but the current prime minister and his government are doing their utmost to stop that happening. rishi sunak�*s government has this afternoon called instead for a judical review. at least one of his cabinet, the energy secretary grant shapps, seems not to be on board with that, saying this morning he believes the covid inquiry should be given "whatever they wa nt" as evidence—gathering begins in two weeks' time under the chairmanship of the right honourable baroness dame heather carol hallett. today's move from the government is believed to be the first time ever that ministers have taken legal action against an inquiry their own government has established. so where does all of this leave the covid inquiry? here's kate. what's relevant to the uk's pandemic response? that's the issue at the heart of the judicial review the government announced today. the cabinet office is challenging whether it should have to disclose what it considers unambiguously irrelevant material to the upcoming public inquiry, including parts of borisjohnson�*s whatsapp messages and diaries. the chair of the covid inquiry, baroness hallett, however, has previously found that the refusal to share such documents "demonstrates it has misunderstood the breadth of the investigation "that i am undertaking." it's really important that we learn the lessons of covid so we can be better prepared in the future and we are doing that in the spirit of rigour but also transparency and candour. we've cooperated, the government's cooperated thoroughly with the inquiry today, handing over tens of thousands of documents, and we will continue to comply, of course, with the law and cooperate with the inquiry. despite this promise to co—operate, the prime minister insisted the government is confident in its position. so to consider what that might mean for the covid inquiry, we need to go back to what inquiries are there for in the first place. despite being around since the 19205, the idea of an in—depth, independent investigation is more popular than ever. in the 30 years prior to 1990, there were 19 public inquiries. just this year, across all of the uk nations, there are currently 18 inquiries which have been announced or are yet to report. now, public inquiries aren't courts. they can't find people guilty or innocent or assign compensation. they're simply meant to find out what happened and make recommendations to make sure it doesn't happen again. but even those basics fundamentally rely on public trust in the process. without that trust, it becomes incredibly hard to create an undisputed record of the truth or create a sense of catharsis for those affected. one of the principal characteristics of a public inquiry is that, although it may take a very long time, may cost a lot of money, it may come up with many recommendations, unless it has the authority that allows those recommendations to be accepted, it may all be a waste of time and money. and fundamental to that is the trust of the public in the process of the inquiry, and in all sorts of different ways. take what happens after an inquiry produces a report. there is no requirement for the government to carry out the recommendations it made, no requirement even for there to be public scrutiny of which recommendations are followed and why. often it's left to the public and to the press to follow up on the recommendations that an inquiry's made as the chair goes back to the previous job and no longer has involvement in the inquiry. government would be very happy in many instances to not have to implement an inquiry's recommendations and if it's termed a whitewash, then that relieves the pressure on the government to implement then and can lead to very little change in the wake of an inquiry. history is full of what missed opportunities can mean. recommendations about emergency service radios made by the public inquiry into the king's cross fire, for example, hadn't been acted on by the time of thejuly 7 bombings almost 20 years later. but even if the public interpret this newjudicial review as the government holding something back from scrutiny rather than attempting to preserve individual privacy, some question whether it will reflect on the inquiry at all. i think you have to distinguish between the trust the public might have or not have in the participants in an inquiry, which obviously include in most cases the government, and the inquiry itself. the purpose of a public inquiry is to act fairly and proportionately in order to undertake the task it's been given. i think if it does that and it communicates clearly how it's being done, then the public ought to be able to assess what the public think about the process. it may be that it's the next steps from the covid inquiry team, not the government, which dictate how impactful its findings will become. that was kate there. we're joined now by michael mansfield kc, who's represented victims at several previous inquiries including the stephen lawrence inquiry, bloody sunday inquiry and the hillsborough inquiry. also here is henry hill, from conservative home, and down the line is kirsten sjovoll, a barrister who was involved in the infected blood inquiry that investigated historic infected blood products used to treat patients in the nhs. thank you very much all forjoining us. first of all, henry hill. when rishi sunak came to power, he promises to restore public trust in politics. is this the way to do it? it certainly is really baffling, the politics of this. ever since rishi sunak came in, one of his understandable political priorities has been drawing a really clear line between his government and that of borisjohnson. there was talk that liz truss hoped he would save her. no suggestion of that common a suggestion he would intervene in the borisjohnson vote. yet here we are seemingly with the prime minister and his predecessor on opposite sides. _, . , ., , and his predecessor on opposite sides. . , ., , sides. the concerns are, they say, riva sides. the concerns are, they say, privacy of — sides. the concerns are, they say, privacy of individuals _ sides. the concerns are, they say, privacy of individuals and - privacy of individuals and presumably precedent as well. yes. privacy of individuals and presumably precedent as well. yes, i think there is — presumably precedent as well. yes, i think there is a _ presumably precedent as well. yes, i think there is a non-cynical— presumably precedent as well. yes, i think there is a non-cynical case - presumably precedent as well. yes, i think there is a non-cynical case to l think there is a non—cynical case to make here. sirjames ely is a very qualified lawyer, and i think this reflects that the law governing public records has not kept up with new technology. the public records act, the freedom of information act, all of these things predate whatsapp. in the old days, it would have been easy to ask for papers, these things would have been on paper and they could have been handed over. now, there is nothing categorising what is personal, what is private, and how you disentangle the two, and we need to get those rules up to date.— the two, and we need to get those rules up to date. because let's face it, we are rules up to date. because let's face it. we are a — rules up to date. because let's face it. we are a lot— rules up to date. because let's face it, we are a lot of— rules up to date. because let's face it, we are a lot of government - it, we are a lot of government business is on whatsapp. yes, it seems like it, and to an extent, that make sense. there is no government version of whatsapp, and it is incredibly convenient, which is why everyone uses it. that it is incredibly convenient, which is why everyone uses it.- it is incredibly convenient, which is why everyone uses it. that is how it has happened- — it has happened. michael mansfield, you were a long—term labour supporter but now support the green party. you also know heather hallett well. i do. how determined do _ know heather hallett well. i do. how determined do you think she is? she| determined do you think she is? she is very accomplished as a high court judge _ is very accomplished as a high court judge i_ is very accomplished as a high court judge. i have been in front of her many— judge. i have been in front of her many times, and she is very good at managing _ many times, and she is very good at managing a — many times, and she is very good at managing a particular case, this being _ managing a particular case, this being one — managing a particular case, this being one of them, namely the inquiry, — being one of them, namely the inquiry, the importance of hair is, inquiry, the importance of hair is, ina sense, — inquiry, the importance of hair is, ina sense, i— inquiry, the importance of hair is, in a sense, i think, the public wish to place _ in a sense, i think, the public wish to place reliance on an inquiry. —— the importance of her. if the roof falls in. _ the importance of her. if the roof falls in, everyone is saying, how did this — falls in, everyone is saying, how did this happen, who is responsible? they want— did this happen, who is responsible? they want answers. my problem with inquiries _ they want answers. my problem with inquiries as— they want answers. my problem with inquiries as they take too long. there _ inquiries as they take too long. there should be a fast track. but in relation to... _ there should be a fast track. but in relation to... we _ there should be a fast track. but in relation to... we can _ there should be a fast track. but in relation to... we can come - there should be a fast track. but in relation to... we can come onto i relation to... we can come onto that, because that may have to happen. that, because that may have to ha en. �* . , that, because that may have to ha en, �* .,, ., that, because that may have to hauen.�* . , that, because that may have to hauen. . ,, happen. but as far as this is concerned. _ happen. but as far as this is concerned, she _ happen. but as far as this is concerned, she is _ happen. but as far as this is l concerned, she is completely happen. but as far as this is - concerned, she is completely right, and i_ concerned, she is completely right, and i must — concerned, she is completely right, and i must say, the procedure for all of— and i must say, the procedure for all of this, — and i must say, the procedure for all ofthis. i— and i must say, the procedure for all of this, i don't know what the fuss _ all of this, i don't know what the fuss at _ all of this, i don't know what the fuss at the — all of this, i don't know what the fuss at the moment is all about, because — fuss at the moment is all about, because the government, in a sense, setup _ because the government, in a sense, set up this_ because the government, in a sense, set up this inquiry, and also the inquiries — set up this inquiry, and also the inquiries act 1975, and there is in fact clear— inquiries act 1975, and there is in fact clear procedure for all of this — fact clear procedure for all of this. 2005, sorry. clear procedure. in other— this. 2005, sorry. clear procedure. in other words, you must distinguish between _ in other words, you must distinguish between disclosure, production, and also publication. the first stage is producing — also publication. the first stage is producing the documents to the chair. _ producing the documents to the chair. and — producing the documents to the chair, and the team of lawyers around — chair, and the team of lawyers around. they make the decisions. whether— around. they make the decisions. whether it — around. they make the decisions. whether it is going to go public. yes, whether it is going to go ouhlio — yes, whether it is going to go publio so— yes, whether it is going to go public. so the decision does not arise _ public. so the decision does not arise at— public. so the decision does not arise at the moment. it potentially will arise, which _ arise at the moment. it potentially will arise, which is _ arise at the moment. it potentially will arise, which is presumably - arise at the moment. it potentially. will arise, which is presumably what rishi sunak is trying to kill. but you are the experts, ki. —— kirste. first of all, tell me what are the legal options on both sides here. i suspect the courts will want to deal with the _ suspect the courts will want to deal with the judicial— suspect the courts will want to deal with the judicial review— suspect the courts will want to deal with the judicial review very - with the judicial review very quickly, _ with the judicial review very quickly. and _ with the judicial review very quickly, and there - with the judicial review very quickly, and there is- with the judicial review very quickly, and there is good l with the judicial review very - quickly, and there is good reason for it— quickly, and there is good reason for it to _ quickly, and there is good reason for it to he — quickly, and there is good reason for it to be dealt _ quickly, and there is good reason for it to be dealt with _ quickly, and there is good reason for it to be dealt with quickly, - quickly, and there is good reason for it to be dealt with quickly, forj for it to be dealt with quickly, for the reasons— for it to be dealt with quickly, for the reasons we _ for it to be dealt with quickly, for the reasons we have _ for it to be dealt with quickly, for the reasons we have already- the reasons we have already discussed _ the reasons we have already discussed. we _ the reasons we have already discussed. we don't- the reasons we have already discussed. we don't want i the reasons we have already discussed. we don't want toj the reasons we have already- discussed. we don't want to delay an inquiry _ discussed. we don't want to delay an inquiry. inquiries— discussed. we don't want to delay an inquiry. inquiries often _ discussed. we don't want to delay an inquiry. inquiries often take - discussed. we don't want to delay an inquiry. inquiries often take huge - inquiry. inquiries often take huge amounts — inquiry. inquiries often take huge amounts of— inquiry. inquiries often take huge amounts of time, _ inquiry. inquiries often take huge amounts of time, and _ inquiry. inquiries often take huge amounts of time, and there - inquiry. inquiries often take huge amounts of time, and there is. inquiry. inquiries often take huge . amounts of time, and there is often consideration— amounts of time, and there is often consideration for— amounts of time, and there is often consideration for the _ amounts of time, and there is often consideration for the public- amounts of time, and there is often consideration for the public purse. i consideration for the public purse. there _ consideration for the public purse. there must— consideration for the public purse. there must he _ consideration for the public purse. there must be consideration - consideration for the public purse. there must be consideration to. there must be consideration to reporting _ there must be consideration to reporting but— there must be consideration to reporting but i_ there must be consideration to reporting. but i also— there must be consideration to reporting. but i also want - there must be consideration to reporting. but i also want to i there must be consideration toi reporting. but i also want to say that michael— reporting. but i also want to say that michael is _ reporting. but i also want to say that michael is absolutely- reporting. but i also want to say that michael is absolutely right. | reporting. but i also want to say i that michael is absolutely right. we are considering _ that michael is absolutely right. we are considering at _ that michael is absolutely right. we are considering at this _ that michael is absolutely right. we are considering at this stage - are considering at this stage disclosure _ are considering at this stage disclosure to _ are considering at this stage disclosure to the _ are considering at this stage disclosure to the inquiry, . are considering at this stage l disclosure to the inquiry, and are considering at this stage - disclosure to the inquiry, and so the question— disclosure to the inquiry, and so the question there _ disclosure to the inquiry, and so the question there is, _ disclosure to the inquiry, and so the question there is, is - disclosure to the inquiry, and so the question there is, is it- the question there is, is it relevant? _ the question there is, is it relevant? what _ the question there is, is it relevant? what the - the question there is, is it- relevant? what the government the question there is, is it— relevant? what the government must prove _ relevant? what the government must prove in _ relevant? what the government must prove in its _ relevant? what the government must prove in itsjudicial_ relevant? what the government must prove in itsjudicial review— relevant? what the government must prove in itsjudicial review is - prove in itsjudicial review is whether— prove in itsjudicial review is whether the _ prove in itsjudicial review is whether the decision - prove in itsjudicial review is whether the decision of - prove in itsjudicial review is whether the decision of the i prove in itsjudicial review is - whether the decision of the request made _ whether the decision of the request made by— whether the decision of the request made by the — whether the decision of the request made by the chair— whether the decision of the request made by the chair of _ whether the decision of the request made by the chair of the _ whether the decision of the request made by the chair of the inquiry - whether the decision of the request made by the chair of the inquiry is i made by the chair of the inquiry is unlawful— made by the chair of the inquiry is unlawful or— made by the chair of the inquiry is unlawful or outside _ made by the chair of the inquiry is unlawful or outside her— made by the chair of the inquiry is unlawful or outside her powers, . made by the chair of the inquiry is l unlawful or outside her powers, and that is— unlawful or outside her powers, and that is a _ unlawful or outside her powers, and that is a pretty— unlawful or outside her powers, and that is a pretty high _ unlawful or outside her powers, and that is a pretty high threshold - unlawful or outside her powers, and that is a pretty high threshold for i that is a pretty high threshold for the government— that is a pretty high threshold for the government to _ that is a pretty high threshold for the government to overcome. . that is a pretty high threshold for the government to overcome. soj that is a pretty high threshold for i the government to overcome. so it that is a pretty high threshold for - the government to overcome. so it is a slightly— the government to overcome. so it is a slightly surprising _ the government to overcome. so it is a slightly surprising decision - the government to overcome. so it is a slightly surprising decision for - a slightly surprising decision for the government— a slightly surprising decision for the government to _ a slightly surprising decision for the government to judicially - a slightly surprising decision for. the government to judicially review this decision — the government to judicially review this decision on _ the government to judicially review this decision on the _ the government to judicially review this decision on the part _ the government to judicially review this decision on the part of- the government to judicially review this decision on the part of the - this decision on the part of the inguirv — this decision on the part of the inquiry. they— this decision on the part of the inquiry. they would _ this decision on the part of the inquiry. they would have - this decision on the part of the inquiry. they would have been| inquiry. they would have been options — inquiry. they would have been options open _ inquiry. they would have been options open to _ inquiry. they would have been options open to the _ inquiry. they would have been options open to the inquiry- inquiry. they would have been. options open to the inquiry itself. the inquiry— options open to the inquiry itself. the inquiry could _ options open to the inquiry itself. the inquiry could have _ options open to the inquiry itself. the inquiry could have made - options open to the inquiry itself. the inquiry could have made an. the inquiry could have made an application _ the inquiry could have made an application for _ the inquiry could have made an application for an— the inquiry could have made an application for an enforcement i the inquiry could have made an- application for an enforcement order if the _ application for an enforcement order if the government _ application for an enforcement order if the government had _ application for an enforcement order if the government had refused - application for an enforcement order if the government had refused to - if the government had refused to disclose — if the government had refused to disclose this information. - disclose this information. ultimately, _ disclose this information. ultimately, there - disclose this information. ultimately, there is - disclose this information. ultimately, there is a - disclose this information. - ultimately, there is a criminal sanction— ultimately, there is a criminal sanction attached _ ultimately, there is a criminal sanction attached to - ultimately, there is a criminal sanction attached to the - ultimately, there is a criminal- sanction attached to the refusal... a criminal— sanction attached to the refusal... a criminal sanction! _ sanction attached to the refusal... a criminal sanction! we _ sanction attached to the refusal... a criminal sanction! we are - sanction attached to the refusal... | a criminal sanction! we are talking in the realms of criminal law here. yes, i mean, we are not at that stage. _ yes, i mean, we are not at that stage. i_ yes, i mean, we are not at that stage. iam— yes, i mean, we are not at that stage. i am struggling - yes, i mean, we are not at that stage. i am struggling to - yes, i mean, we are not at that stage. i am struggling to thinkl yes, i mean, we are not at that. stage. i am struggling to think of an occasion — stage. i am struggling to think of an occasion where _ stage. i am struggling to think of an occasion where it _ stage. i am struggling to think of an occasion where it has - stage. i am struggling to think of. an occasion where it has happened stage. i am struggling to think of- an occasion where it has happened in relation _ an occasion where it has happened in relation to— an occasion where it has happened in relation to a — an occasion where it has happened in relation to a judicial— an occasion where it has happened in relation to a judicial review. - relation to a judicial review. in the — relation to a judicial review. in the way— relation to a judicial review. in the way that _ relation to a judicial review. in the way that we - relation to a judicial review. in the way that we are - relation to a judicial review. in the way that we are in . relation to a judicial review. | in the way that we are in the looking glass world to an extent, henry hill, borisjohnson, given that right at the beginning, he was adamant he would not hand over anything ever, borisjohnson has now written to the inquiry and offered to give them his whatsapps from 2021, because he had a new phone from then, straight to the inquiry. what is that about, do you think? in a sense, if you are being cynical, and it is borisjohnson, so why not, he has nothing to lose, right? he has already been burned by all of the stuff. maybe a lot of that content is embarrassing, but it was strange. when he first said, i will give everything to the inquiry, i thought ooh! and then, except things before 2021. that phone cannot be turned on because the security services state must stay switched off. so it is important to remember he is leaving out a lot of stuff that he is not handing over. but it could embarrass his predecessors. but if borisjohnson wants to hand this over, can the government stop him? i this over, can the government stop him? ~' ., this over, can the government stop him? ~ ., , , this over, can the government stop him? ~ ., , ., him? i think no, because position here, is him? i think no, because position here. is and _ him? i think no, because position here. is and l— him? i think no, because position here, is and i have _ him? i think no, because position here, is and i have just _ him? i think no, because position| here, is and i have just explained, the 2005— here, is and i have just explained, the 2005 act makes it very clear. the first — the 2005 act makes it very clear. the first stages, it is not going out to— the first stages, it is not going out to the _ the first stages, it is not going out to the public. so he can handed straight _ out to the public. so he can handed straight over. 50 out to the public. so he can handed straight over-— straight over. so there is no sanction _ straight over. so there is no sanction the _ straight over. so there is no sanction the government. straight over. so there is no - sanction the government impose on him for handing over, and as it were, defying rishi sunak you racket know, i think not, because it is all within the law.— within the law. article eight of the euro ean within the law. article eight of the european convention _ within the law. article eight of the european convention also - within the law. article eight of the european convention also makes. within the law. article eight of the | european convention also makes it very clear— european convention also makes it very clear that there is a right to privacy— very clear that there is a right to privacy is — very clear that there is a right to privacy is subject to a number of provisos. — privacy is subject to a number of provisos, one of which is protection of health. _ provisos, one of which is protection of health, protection of safety. so she is— of health, protection of safety. so she is within her rights to in fact not only— she is within her rights to in fact not only ask... he is within his rights — not only ask... he is within his rights to— not only ask... he is within his rights to say, i am handing it over, because _ rights to say, i am handing it over, because it — rights to say, i am handing it over, because it is — rights to say, i am handing it over, because it is my privacy. you _ because it is my privacy. you mentioned at the beginning a possibility that there might be a fast track inquiry. the inquiry in south you thought might take up to seven years. with a fast track inquiry actually reveal as much? would it satisfy what many people, particularly those who lost relatives, want to know? i chaired ichaired a i chaired a citizens inquiry, it doesn't — i chaired a citizens inquiry, it doesn't have the powers of a judicial— doesn't have the powers of a judicial inquiry. two years ago. people — judicial inquiry. two years ago. people wanted answers during covid because of— people wanted answers during covid because of mixed messages, spending and procurement. they wanted questions — and procurement. they wanted questions answered then in order to prevent— questions answered then in order to prevent its— questions answered then in order to prevent its continuance. there has to he _ prevent its continuance. there has to be another type of inquiry, a fast— to be another type of inquiry, a fast track— to be another type of inquiry, a fast track that is in fact focused on particular issues and the issues were _ on particular issues and the issues were very— on particular issues and the issues were very clear to the public, one of which — were very clear to the public, one of which was rule breaking. coming back to the — of which was rule breaking. coming back to the collective _ of which was rule breaking. coming back to the collective cabinet - back to the collective cabinet responsibility, grant shapps was straight out of the traps this morning saying they should be handed over, so rishi sunak isn't able to corral his cabinet. 0ur more people going to say it is problematic? thea;r going to say it is problematic? they will because — going to say it is problematic? they will because i'm _ going to say it is problematic? they will because i'm not _ going to say it is problematic? they will because i'm not a _ going to say it is problematic? iia: will because i'm not a lawyer going to say it is problematic? "iia: will because i'm not a lawyer but the politics of it is really bad. if you are producing it you want to be distancing your self from that area of cover—ups and sleaze. i imagine there are people who are deeply frustrated with this approach and unless it really is just a question of someone in the cabinet office is deeply committed to this interpretation of collective responsibility it's a mystery why they're doing it.— they're doing it. kerstin, on the ruestion they're doing it. kerstin, on the question of— they're doing it. kerstin, on the question of what _ they're doing it. kerstin, on the question of what baroness - they're doing it. kerstin, on the l question of what baroness hallett can do on this, can she start the inquiry as planned and let this play out or does this delay the start of the inquiry?— out or does this delay the start of the inquiry? she can. it's a matter for the inquiry _ the inquiry? she can. it's a matter for the inquiry whether _ the inquiry? she can. it's a matter for the inquiry whether they - the inquiry? she can. it's a matter for the inquiry whether they thinkl for the inquiry whether they think this is— for the inquiry whether they think this is material— for the inquiry whether they think this is material that _ for the inquiry whether they think this is material that is _ for the inquiry whether they think this is material that is essential. this is material that is essential and would — this is material that is essential and would so _ this is material that is essential and would so adversely - this is material that is essential and would so adversely affect . this is material that is essential. and would so adversely affect the functioning — and would so adversely affect the functioning of the _ and would so adversely affect the functioning of the inquiry- and would so adversely affect the functioning of the inquiry they'd i functioning of the inquiry they'd have _ functioning of the inquiry they'd have to — functioning of the inquiry they'd have to wait _ functioning of the inquiry they'd have to wait for _ functioning of the inquiry they'd have to wait for the _ functioning of the inquiry they'd have to wait for the outcome i functioning of the inquiry they'd have to wait for the outcome of| functioning of the inquiry they'd - have to wait for the outcome of the judicial— have to wait for the outcome of the judicial review _ have to wait for the outcome of the judicial review. in _ have to wait for the outcome of the judicial review. in principle - have to wait for the outcome of the judicial review. in principle there i judicial review. in principle there is nothing — judicial review. in principle there is nothing to— judicial review. in principle there is nothing to stop _ judicial review. in principle there is nothing to stop her— judicial review. in principle there is nothing to stop her starting i judicial review. in principle therel is nothing to stop her starting the inguirv _ is nothing to stop her starting the inguirv i— is nothing to stop her starting the inquiry. i wanted _ is nothing to stop her starting the inquiry. i wanted to _ is nothing to stop her starting the inquiry. i wanted to come - is nothing to stop her starting the inquiry. i wanted to come back. is nothing to stop her starting the inquiry. i wanted to come back on the inquiry. ! wanted to come back on the privacy— inquiry. i wanted to come back on the privacy point _ inquiry. ! wanted to come back on the privacy point if— inquiry. i wanted to come back on the privacy point if i _ inquiry. ! wanted to come back on the privacy point if i might- inquiry. i wanted to come back on the privacy point if i might very. the privacy point if i might very brieflv — the privacy point if i might very brieflv i— the privacy point if i might very briefly. i think— the privacy point if i might very briefly. i think the _ the privacy point if i might very briefly. i think the privacy- the privacy point if i might very| briefly. i think the privacy issue has been — briefly. i think the privacy issue has been raised _ briefly. i think the privacy issue has been raised but _ briefly. ! think the privacy issue has been raised but it's- briefly. i think the privacy issue . has been raised but it's important to remember— has been raised but it's important to rememberthat_ has been raised but it's important to remember that isn't _ has been raised but it's important to remember that isn't really- has been raised but it's important to remember that isn't really thel to remember that isn't really the question— to remember that isn't really the question here _ to remember that isn't really the question here. the _ to remember that isn't really the question here. the question - to remember that isn't really the question here. the question is l question here. the question is whether— question here. the question is whether they'd _ question here. the question is whether they'd be _ question here. the question is whether they'd be required...| question here. the question is - whether they'd be required... they aren't— whether they'd be required... they aren't obliged _ whether they'd be required... they aren't obliged to _ whether they'd be required... they aren't obliged to disclose - whether they'd be required... they aren't obliged to disclose anything | aren't obliged to disclose anything they wouldn't _ aren't obliged to disclose anything they wouldn't be _ aren't obliged to disclose anything they wouldn't be required - aren't obliged to disclose anything they wouldn't be required to - they wouldn't be required to disclose _ they wouldn't be required to disclose before _ they wouldn't be required to disclose before a _ they wouldn't be required to disclose before a court - they wouldn't be required to disclose before a court of. they wouldn't be required tol disclose before a court of law they wouldn't be required to - disclose before a court of law but private _ disclose before a court of law but private information _ disclose before a court of law but private information is— disclose before a court of law but private information is disclosed l disclose before a court of law but| private information is disclosed to inquiries — private information is disclosed to inquiries all— private information is disclosed to inquiries all the _ private information is disclosed to inquiries all the time. _ private information is disclosed to inquiries all the time. it's - private information is disclosed to inquiries all the time. it's not- inquiries all the time. it's not unusual _ inquiries all the time. it's not unusual the _ inquiries all the time. it's not unusual. the normal- inquiries all the time. it's not unusual. the normal course i inquiries all the time. it's noti unusual. the normal course is inquiries all the time. it's not. unusual. the normal course is if inquiries all the time. it's not- unusual. the normal course is if it is relevant, — unusual. the normal course is if it is relevant, it— unusual. the normal course is if it is relevant, it is— unusual. the normal course is if it is relevant, it is disclosed. - unusual. the normal course is if it is relevant, it is disclosed. this i is relevant, it is disclosed. this argument — is relevant, it is disclosed. this argument is _ is relevant, it is disclosed. this argument is about _ is relevant, it is disclosed. this argument is about the - is relevant, it is disclosed. this argument is about the privacy. argument is about the privacy rights — argument is about the privacy rights~ if— argument is about the privacy rights. if something - argument is about the privacy rights. if something is - argument is about the privacy. rights. if something is irrelevant then— rights. if something is irrelevant then the — rights. if something is irrelevant then the privacy— rights. if something is irrelevant then the privacy rights _ rights. if something is irrelevant then the privacy rights are - rights. if something is irrelevantl then the privacy rights are meant rights. if something is irrelevant. then the privacy rights are meant to play but _ then the privacy rights are meant to play but i _ then the privacy rights are meant to play but i think— then the privacy rights are meant to play but i think we _ then the privacy rights are meant to play but i think we should _ then the privacy rights are meant to play but i think we should be - play but i think we should be careful— play but i think we should be careful about _ play but i think we should be careful about putting - play but i think we should be careful about putting too - play but i think we should be l careful about putting too much emphasis _ careful about putting too much emphasis on _ careful about putting too much emphasis on it. _ careful about putting too much emphasis on it.— careful about putting too much emphasis on it. careful about putting too much emhasis on it. , , , , ., emphasis on it. very quickly, yes or no, do emphasis on it. very quickly, yes or no. do you — emphasis on it. very quickly, yes or no. do you think — emphasis on it. very quickly, yes or no, do you think that _ emphasis on it. very quickly, yes or no, do you think that baroness - no, do you think that baroness hallett might be minded to resign if this doesn't go her way? i hallett might be minded to resign if this doesn't go her way?— this doesn't go her way? i can't answer. this doesn't go her way? i can't answer- i _ this doesn't go her way? i can't answer. i don't _ this doesn't go her way? i can't answer. i don't know. - this doesn't go her way? i can't answer. i don't know. that's i this doesn't go her way? i can't i answer. i don't know. that's what this doesn't go her way? i can't - answer. i don't know. that's what i want to do — answer. i don't know. that's what i want to do thank— answer. i don't know. that's what i want to do thank you. _ andrew tate, the controversial british american social media personality, and to many a toxic influencer who endlessly promotes misogny, has given a rare interview to the bbc today, and immediately afterwards called it a "hitjob." he was interviewed by lucy williamson at his home in romania where he is under house arrest, undersuspicion of human trafficking, rape and organised crime. he denies all allegations. his attitudes to women have been condemned by organisations including rape crisis and bold voices, a charity which works in schools to tackle gender—based inequality and violence. formerly a kickboxer, he has talked about fighting women, saying "grip her up by the neck," in a video which has been viewed more than one and a half million times. before we talk to laura bates from everyday sexism, and the convicted tiktok prankster mizzy, who says andrew tate and his brother have offered to help him behave better, here is a flavour of today's interview. have you raped anybody? absolutely not. have you trafficked anybody? absolutely not. exploited any women for money? absolutely not. national organisations who are saying that... blaming you for increasing levels of misogyny, schools that are saying they are having an increased incidents of girls being attacked, of female teachers being harassed... if that was true... ..by pupils, because of you and your teachings, your influence. that is absolute garbage. i have never, ever encouraged a student to attack a teacher, male orfemale, ever. i preach hard work, discipline. i am an athlete. i preach anti drug, i preach religion, i preach no alcohol. i preach... no knife crime. every single problem with modern society, i'm against. with me now is bacari—bronze o'garro, a social media influencer who's recently been fined for entering someone�*s home uninvited for a prank. he goes online by the name mizzy. and laura bates, from the everyday sexism project. thanks forjoining us. first of all, mizzy, you are here to talk about your connection with andrew tate but also to apologise for your behaviour as a prankster. i know that you are now wearing a tag for a year. can i run through some of the things that happened? you entered a house, the door was opened, not knowing whether people were in, videoing as you went. you knocked a man onto a road. you ran off with an elderly woman's dog before taking it back and you said to a man on the tube platform, do you want to die? all of those things in their own way are terrifying. do you actually apologise for them? at terrifying. do you actually apologise for them? terrifying. do you actually a oloaise for them? _, , ., apologise for them? of course i do. when it happened _ apologise for them? of course i do. when it happened i _ apologise for them? of course i do. when it happened i took _ when it happened i took accountability for my actions and i went back and apologised to the woman on social media. i'm here for a reason. everyday of my life i've been doing social media, basically. i'm just reporting my experiences, documenting myjourney. you are watching myjourney right now. eome watching my 'ourney right now. some ofthat watching my journey right now. some of that journey. _ watching my journey right now. some of that journey, as _ watching my journey right now. some of that journey, as you _ watching my journey right now. some of that journey, as you say, _ watching myjourney right now. some of thatjourney, as you say, you've apologised for. i watched and you said it is easier to do the hateful stuff and get more money from the hateful stuff. do you think you have to do something different? i’m hateful stuff. do you think you have to do something different?— to do something different? i'm not doinu to do something different? i'm not doing pranks _ to do something different? i'm not doing pranks any — to do something different? i'm not doing pranks any more... - to do something different? i'm not doing pranks any more... i- to do something different? i'm not doing pranks any more... i never. doing pranks any more... i never said i'm may prankster. the media paints a picture in your brain and this is what andrew tate was trying to show you. when i was at the lowest point in my time, everyone was trying to cancel me, tristan popped up... was trying to cancel me, tristan popped ppm— was trying to cancel me, tristan| popped up- - -_ yes. popped up... tristan tate? yes, andrew's _ popped up... tristan tate? yes, andrew's brother. _ popped up... tristan tate? yes, andrew's brother. he _ popped up... tristan tate? yes, andrew's brother. he said - popped up... tristan tate? yes, andrew's brother. he said he i popped up... tristan tate? yes, | andrew's brother. he said he can popped up... tristan tate? yes, - andrew's brother. he said he can see the potential. the way i'm going at it is wrong. the potential. the way i'm going at it is wrong-— it is wrong. because he is being vilified? yes. _ it is wrong. because he is being vilified? yes. you _ it is wrong. because he is being vilified? yes. you are _ it is wrong. because he is being vilified? yes. you are being - vilified? yes. you are being vilified, the _ vilified? yes. you are being vilified, the tate _ vilified? yes. you are being - vilified, the tate others contacted you and what happened? he messaged me and said, i can see your potential. the way you are going with it. ., ., ., ., potential. the way you are going with it-_ my i with it. potentialfor what? my confidence _ with it. potentialfor what? my confidence and _ with it. potentialfor what? my confidence and my _ with it. potentialfor what? my confidence and my stride. - with it. potentialfor what? my confidence and my stride. you | with it. potential for what? my - confidence and my stride. you guys arejust confidence and my stride. you guys are just sitting here going through the strip and doing your thing, i'm just winging it, i'mjust the strip and doing your thing, i'm just winging it, i'm just saying what i'm saying. i'm a confident person. everybody needs to be confident. person. everybody needs to be confident-— person. everybody needs to be confident. , ~ ., ., , person. everybody needs to be confident. , �* ., ., confident. yes, andrew tate has that confidence in — confident. yes, andrew tate has that confidence in a _ confident. yes, andrew tate has that confidence in a different _ confident. yes, andrew tate has that confidence in a different way. - confident. yes, andrew tate has that confidence in a different way. i - confidence in a different way. i want to talk to you about some of the things he has said and i wonder if you think it's problematic to get into it with them. for example, things he's said, women belong to men. on a plane, there is a female pilot and most women can't even drive. he said, i go out and i eff somebody, it is exercise. if i catch my woman cheating, it is out with the machete. that is hate to speak. presumably you don't go along with that? {if presumably you don't go along with that? . ., , ., �* presumably you don't go along with that? _, , ., �* ., presumably you don't go along with that? , ., �* ., ., ., that? of course i don't go along with it. i that? of course i don't go along with it. i don't— that? of course i don't go along with it. i don't look— that? of course i don't go along with it. i don't look up - that? of course i don't go along with it. i don't look up to - that? of course i don't go along | with it. i don't look up to andrew tate, i don't think he's a role model. i don't look up to nobody, i am my own person. it's not even about that. he's painting a picture that the media... everybody paints a picture. it might be controversial, these things are allegations at the end of the day. innocent until proven guilty. what he's saying is wrong, i don't condone it you aren't condoning what he's saying but would you criticise him for saying these things? that doesn't matter to me. i'm not here for andrew tate, to make money from andrew tate. realistically, that's what you're doing. i realistically, that's what you're doini . ~ �* , realistically, that's what you're doini . ~' �* , ., , doing. i think there's two things. the first aim _ doing. i think there's two things. the first aim would _ doing. i think there's two things. the first aim would be _ doing. i think there's two things. the first aim would be that - doing. i think there's two things. the first aim would be that if- doing. i think there's two things. j the first aim would be that if you align yourself with andrew tate... who says i'm aligning myself? he reached out to help me and show me the ways i'm going in life. mizzy is an online social media persona. it is two different people. what an online social media persona. it is two different people.— is two different people. what is it about andrew _ is two different people. what is it about andrew tate _ is two different people. what is it about andrew tate that _ is two different people. what is it about andrew tate that appeals l is two different people. what is it | about andrew tate that appeals to you and other teenage boys? is confidence and how he talks and carries himself. i was raised by a single mum. i was living in the hood. so you guys need to understand that i'm not in any way supporting what andrew tate says about women, any of that. what andrew tate says about women, an of that. . ~ what andrew tate says about women, an of that. ., ,, , ., what andrew tate says about women, an of that. ., ,, i. ., . any of that. thank you for that. laura, any of that. thank you for that. laura. so _ any of that. thank you for that. laura, so much _ any of that. thank you for that. laura, so much misogyny and l any of that. thank you for that. . laura, so much misogyny and hate any of that. thank you for that. - laura, so much misogyny and hate in the language that andrew tate uses. who are the people who can counter that? we who are the people who can counter that? ~ . , ., . , that? we have loads of incredible role model— that? we have loads of incredible role model is _ that? we have loads of incredible role model is speaking _ that? we have loads of incredible role model is speaking out - that? we have loads of incredible role model is speaking out about| that? we have loads of incredible i role model is speaking out about so many— role model is speaking out about so many different kinds of masculinity, jordan— many different kinds of masculinity, jordan stephens, marcus rashford, the guys _ jordan stephens, marcus rashford, the guys on the england football team, _ the guys on the england football team, young men talking about mental health. _ team, young men talking about mental health, professor green and people like hirn _ health, professor green and people like hirn a — health, professor green and people like him. a lot of role models. we talk about— like him. a lot of role models. we talk about the media but dads, male carers, _ talk about the media but dads, male carers, everyone has a role to play. and yet— carers, everyone has a role to play. and yet his — carers, everyone has a role to play. and yet his traction is massive and his traction... stories of kids in primary school knowing who andrew tate is. i primary school knowing who andrew tate is. ~ ,. ., primary school knowing who andrew tate is. ~ ., . , tate is. i think part of that is because we _ tate is. i think part of that is because we are _ tate is. i think part of that is because we are here - tate is. i think part of that is i because we are here discussing tate is. i think part of that is - because we are here discussing him tonight _ because we are here discussing him toniiht. ., . tonight. you are giving him the latform. tonight. you are giving him the platform- you _ tonight. you are giving him the platform. you are _ tonight. you are giving him the platform. you are giving - tonight. you are giving him the platform. you are giving me i tonight. you are giving him the| platform. you are giving me the platform. you are giving me the platform right now. everything i am doing is bad, is what you are saying, but i wouldn't be on the news. you are playing the game. it is all in the system. i news. you are playing the game. it is all in the system.— is all in the system. i totally airee, is all in the system. i totally agree. we — is all in the system. i totally agree, we are _ is all in the system. i totally agree, we are here - is all in the system. i totally agree, we are here to - is all in the system. i totally agree, we are here to talk l is all in the system. i totally - agree, we are here to talk about it because _ agree, we are here to talk about it because the bbc have given a 40 minute _ because the bbc have given a 40 minute interview to a guy who is under— minute interview to a guy who is under investigation for trafficking. if he is _ under investigation for trafficking. if he is under investigation for these crimes, why are you giving him a platform and forecasting what he's doing? there are bigger things to worry about. doing? there are bigger things to worry about-— doing? there are bigger things to worry about._ there i doing? there are bigger things to | worry about._ there are worry about. hang on... there are strikes. worry about. hang on... there are strikes- i'm _ worry about. hang on... there are strikes. i'm someone _ worry about. hang on... there are strikes. i'm someone from - worry about. hang on... there are strikes. i'm someone from the i worry about. hang on... there are i strikes. i'm someone from the hood, i'm an 18—year—old boy, i'm just here. i'm an 18-year-old boy, i'm 'ust here. ., �* . i'm an 18-year-old boy, i'm 'ust here. . . i'm an 18-year-old boy, i'm 'ust here. ., �* . �* . . here. you're fine and you've had a chance to — here. you're fine and you've had a chance to speak— here. you're fine and you've had a chance to speak and _ here. you're fine and you've had a chance to speak and i _ here. you're fine and you've had a chance to speak and i want - here. you're fine and you've had a chance to speak and i want to i here. you're fine and you've had a chance to speak and i want to talkj chance to speak and i want to talk to laura about this. this stuff about andrew tate, he's back on twitter and tiktok and he would say that other things he says are just about dark humour and satire. sure. about dark humour and satire. sure, but all of the — about dark humour and satire. sure, but all of the jokes _ about dark humour and satire. sure, but all of the jokes in _ about dark humour and satire. sure, but all of the jokes in the _ about dark humour and satire. sure, but all of the jokes in the world don't make it ok that he's under arrest _ don't make it ok that he's under arrest on — don't make it ok that he's under arrest on those charges or he is openly advocating coercion and abuse — openly advocating coercion and abuse. people say if he says one good _ abuse. people say if he says one good thing about discipline, then the other— good thing about discipline, then the other stuff doesn't matter, doesn't — the other stuff doesn't matter, doesn't count. andrew tate isn't world _ doesn't count. andrew tate isn't world famous. he is one of hundreds, _ world famous. he is one of hundreds, it_ world famous. he is one of hundreds, it is a much bigger problem _ hundreds, it is a much bigger roblem. ., �* hundreds, it is a much bigger problem-— hundreds, it is a much bigger roblem. ., �* ., ., , problem. you're never going to stop the likes of— problem. you're never going to stop the likes of andrew _ problem. you're never going to stop the likes of andrew tate _ problem. you're never going to stop the likes of andrew tate in - problem. you're never going to stop the likes of andrew tate in the i the likes of andrew tate in the world but when kids in primary school are referencing him, where is the hope? you talk about the good role models but you are talking about children who have broad access to social media. ladle about children who have broad access to social media.— to social media. we know that social media isn't enhancing _ to social media. we know that social media isn't enhancing content i to social media. we know that social media isn't enhancing content that l media isn't enhancing content that is really— media isn't enhancing content that is really relevant, the algorithms are designed to drive people towards extreme _ are designed to drive people towards extreme content which gets the clicks _ extreme content which gets the clicks. andrew tate is forfeiting. yeahi _ clicks. andrew tate is forfeiting. yeah, the — clicks. andrew tate is forfeiting. yeah, the bbc and mainstream media are profiting, social media is profiting, _ are profiting, social media is profiting, who isn't really profiting, who isn't really profiting from it? it is teenage boys _ profiting from it? it is teenage boys and — profiting from it? it is teenage boys and women. do profiting from it? it is teenage boys and women.— profiting from it? it is teenage boys and women. do you see the damaie boys and women. do you see the damage that _ boys and women. do you see the damage that not _ boys and women. do you see the damage that notjust _ boys and women. do you see the damage that not just andrew i boys and women. do you see the | damage that not just andrew tate boys and women. do you see the i damage that notjust andrew tate but the idea of hate speech, you say that you were raised by a single mother, the damage that hate speech does to kids?— does to kids? 100%. kids shouldn't listen to does to kids? 10096. kids shouldn't listen to andrew _ does to kids? 10096. kids shouldn't listen to andrew tate. _ does to kids? 10096. kids shouldn't listen to andrew tate. they - listen to andrew tate. they shouldn't listen to somebody else who is sharing hateful stuff, whatever it is. i don't condone doing my pranks. i've never said to my pranks. i know what i do, i am sitting here, talking about my pranks, acknowledging what i've done. �* pranks, acknowledging what i've done. and as you say, you've given u i done. and as you say, you've given up pranks- — done. and as you say, you've given up pranks- l _ done. and as you say, you've given up pranks. i wonder, _ done. and as you say, you've given up pranks. i wonder, what- done. and as you say, you've given up pranks. i wonder, what laura i up pranks. i wonder, what laura says, a lot of people are doing a lot of work around kids to help them to make sure that they understand what is right and wrong. you are in a sense and influence with a lot of followers. ., ., , . followers. you need to understand, i'm iioin followers. you need to understand, i'm going to — followers. you need to understand, i'm going to help — followers. you need to understand, i'm going to help the _ followers. you need to understand, i'm going to help the youth. - followers. you need to understand, i'm going to help the youth. people think i'm the bad villain, you are thinking i'm a character but i'm this characterfor a thinking i'm a character but i'm this character for a reason. thinking i'm a character but i'm this characterfor a reason. mizzy is a character that i created. lute is a character that i created. we are talking _ is a character that i created. we are talking about role models, we need more role models now. yes but we have to — need more role models now. yes but we have to examine _ need more role models now. yes but we have to examine the _ need more role models now. yes but we have to examine the role - need more role models now. yes but we have to examine the role of i we have to examine the role of social— we have to examine the role of social media and the mainstream media _ social media and the mainstream media are — social media and the mainstream media are playing in giving a platform _ media are playing in giving a platform to certain role models over others _ platform to certain role models over others. ., ~' , ., , . a report by nationwide building society says that house prices fell at their fastest rate in 14 years in may and at the same time it warned that rises in mortgage interest rates could hit the housing market. and mortgage rates are so closely tied to the bank of england rate that another hike could further impact that market. the bank is watching inflation carefully, and the latest official figures show that uk inflation slowed in april by less than expected to 8.7%. so why is inflation in the uk so stubborn? here's our economics editor ben chu. owning a pet is expensive at the moment. we are having to increase prices every week. checking every day because you just don't know. it could be twice a week but at least once a week, once a fortnight you will have to increase the prices by £2, £3. whereas before, it might have been iop, 20p. it's a steep incline, now. the price of pets and pet—related products and services is up 16% year—on—year in april according to the office for national statistics. it's notjust pets where prices continue rising fast. despite a moderation in the headline uk rate of inflation in april, britain still has the fastest rate of price increases of any g7 country. but what's more worrying is that we also have the worst core inflation among this group, at 6.8% here in april. that's up from the previous month, so heading in the wrong direction. core inflation is a measure which excludes volatile components of the inflation basket such as energy and food. this suggests the uk has a particular underlying problem with inflation, making it stickier here than elsewhere. some have even suggested we might be the new sick man of europe, even the developed world, when it comes to rising prices. but is this right, and if so, why? the pet food industry points to a cocktail of uk—specific factors making the situation here worse. we take 80% of our raw material from the uk, so we are quite reliant on farming in the united kingdom and that has been a pressure. and then obviously there has been some challenges on getting in raw materials due to transport, you know, brexit hasn't been... so far, it hasn't caused huge problems importing that we have problems importing but we have seen export challenges around export certificates and other issues, the border checks and so forth. that's impacted on profitability as well. quite a lot of people who worked in the pet food factories have come from central and eastern european countries. obviously quite a lot have gone home. say hello to go.compare, the new way... inflation in services in the uk is a particular concern for economists. for instance, uk insurance prices were up i7% year—on—year in april, with travel insurance showing a considerablejump. some in that industry blamed the weakness of our currency, a hangoverfrom last year's mini budget, which sent sterling to a record low against the dollar. travelling to the us now is extremely expensive from the travel insurance market, and that is just because of the weak pound against the dollar. and what that means then is the medical costs are much more expensive, so when you are then looking, if you do unfortunately have to make a claim on your travel insurance, everything isjust a bit more expensive and again, the exchange rate does affect that. and it's notjust the us. we're also seeing it from the euro as well and that is causing the travel insurance to go up. in the car insurance market, that is the cost of car parts and the cost of claims themselves. so we are seeing a huge increase in the cost of claims and again, cars are more expensive to buy and fix. so this all unfortunately goes into the cost of the consumer, and it all goes into their car insurance premium. we all know about double—digit food inflation, but official data shows that inflation in uk restaurants and cafes is also still running at 9.4%. it should be said that not every economist is convinced that the uk is an international outlier when it comes to inflationary pressures. yet those that are point to two big likely culprits — brexit and the outsize and lasting impact of covid on our available workforce. and when one talks to individual businesses, one does find those two themes coming up repeatedly. labour has been an issue since brexit. obviously there's chronic staff shortage in our sector. we've been very imaginative, where we get our staff from but ultimately it's down to each company's own resources and imagination and innovation. that's led to 19, 20% inflation in labour. the last two years, we've increased prices by 5%, both aprils. so over a 24—month period we pretty much had a 10% increase, so that in no way reflects the inflationary costs that we've had hurt us and our margins have depleted as a result. the government says the uk�*s been shaken overwhelmingly by global inflationary forces, and the chancellor and prime minister have committed to halve domestic inflation this year. yet hospitality sector leaders say there are other specific factors relating to government policy during the covid period that are contributing to a uk—specific inflation problem today. it's undoubtedly tougher for the hospitality sector in the uk. during covid, they had to take out loans. the government provided unprecedented support but it did make them take out loans, so at the moment our businesses are prioritising paying down government debt rather than investing injobs and growth in their businesses and that means they've got no headroom to manage the difficult cost challenges that they've got coming through in energy and food. rather like the murder on the orient express, forfirms, there is no shortage of suspects for the cause of the uk�*s apparently stickier inflation. in truth, the economicjury is still out on whether britain is truly the global inflationary invalid. but the symptoms so far are not encouraging. then there. when the independent review into the impact that the ban on homosexuality in the armed forces between 1967, when homosexuality became legal, and 2000, when homosexuals were allowed to serve openly in the armed forces, is published shortly. it's expected to result in compensation and an official apology from the government to all the lbgt+ service personnel. ahead of that, a study by northumbria university has revealed the lifelong suffering the ban caused. for many who suffered appalling discrimination, including being hounded by the military, and the aftermath — people who lost theirjobs, homes, careers, and their health — the independent review has been a long time coming. we're joined now by andrew hastle, former raf doctor, and craig jones, the executive chair of the fighting with pride charity. thanks both very much for coming. andrew, first of all, what was your first experience in the military? you join when you are 19. what was it like early on?— it like early on? yes, not quite 40 ears it like early on? yes, not quite 40 years ago. — it like early on? yes, not quite 40 years ago. i— it like early on? yes, not quite 40 years ago. lioined _ it like early on? yes, not quite 40 years ago, ijoined as _ it like early on? yes, not quite 40 years ago, ijoined as a _ it like early on? yes, not quite 40 years ago, ijoined as a teenager, | years ago, ijoined as a teenager, and i wasn't really sure about my own sexuality. i think i knew that i was gay, but i was deeply closeted, and so joining the was gay, but i was deeply closeted, and sojoining the military didn't seem to be a problem, because i wasn't actually giving up anything that i was doing. but then, once i got into the military, and as i got older, i became very aware that i was gay, and then i was stuck. i was very aware of military policy, that homosexuality was not permitted. i was very aware that the military police found and pursued gay men and women with some enthusiasm, and that the whole process was pretty inhumane, and there was no way out, because even if you are admitted to your commanding officer that you were gay, the process of dismissal was degrading and unpleasant and prolonged. 50 was degrading and unpleasant and -iroloned. , . , prolonged. so 'ust tell me a bit about this. — prolonged. so 'ust tell me a bit about this. it i prolonged. so just tell me a bit about this. it was _ prolonged. so just tell me a bit about this. it was almost i prolonged. so just tell me a bit about this. it was almost like i about this. it was almost like hunting for gay men and women? it hunting for gay men and women? it was like living in a dystopian society~ _ was like living in a dystopian society. it was like something from a margaret — society. it was like something from a margaret atwood novel. we were at .reat a margaret atwood novel. we were at great risk, _ a margaret atwood novel. we were at great risk, and we lived a hidden existence — great risk, and we lived a hidden existence, in constant fear of the day that — existence, in constant fear of the day that the military police would tap you _ day that the military police would tap you on the shoulder and take you away. _ tap you on the shoulder and take you away, and _ tap you on the shoulder and take you away, and the fate that followed after _ away, and the fate that followed after that, away, and the fate that followed afterthat, it's away, and the fate that followed after that, it's unbelievable that in 1994. — after that, it's unbelievable that in 1994, we had people in prison for the in1994, we had people in prison for the criminal— in 1994, we had people in prison for the criminal offence of homosexuality.- the criminal offence of homosexuality. the criminal offence of homosexuali . homosexuality. so, explain, there were kind of _ homosexuality. so, explain, there were kind of interviews? - homosexuality. so, explain, there were kind of interviews? people i homosexuality. so, explain, there i were kind of interviews? people were taken in an interview to? what taken in an interview to? what happened? — taken in an interview to? what happened? they _ taken in an interview to? what happened? they were - taken in an interview to? what happened? they were taken i taken in an interview to? what happened? they were taken away and interviewed, sometimes those interviews went over to a three days _ interviews went over to a three days. people were abused during some of those _ days. people were abused during some of those interviews, the independent review— of those interviews, the independent review has— of those interviews, the independent review has heard. people were sent to military — review has heard. people were sent to military prisons for inspections that had — to military prisons for inspections that had no place alongside the hippocratic oath. it was a national disgrace. — hippocratic oath. it was a national disgrace, and then they were sent down _ disgrace, and then they were sent down and — disgrace, and then they were sent down and court—martialed for the term _ down and court—martialed for the term of— down and court—martialed for the term of six— down and court—martialed for the term of six months, and if, like me, you are _ term of six months, and if, like me, you are an— term of six months, and if, like me, you are an officer, then you served it in a _ you are an officer, then you served it in a civilian — you are an officer, then you served it in a civilian prison. and _ it in a civilian prison. and nobody, but nobody, could talk about this, within the ranks? ho. about this, within the ranks? no. no. you couldn't _ about this, within the ranks? no. no. you couldn't talk to anybody. i had to lie to friends, to family, to colleagues. even the normal rules of confidentiality, to doctors and two priests, did not apply in the military, and i discovered, once i came out, that i couldn't even tell the truth to the people i was dating or going outwith, because i couldn't trust them to not tell somebody that i was in the military, and the consequences of that would have been disastrous for me. hind and the consequences of that would have been disastrous for me. and how emotionally psychologically _ have been disastrous for me. and how emotionally psychologically damaging | emotionally psychologically damaging was this, for you and for the people who have spoken to the inquiry? l who have spoken to the inquiry? i think people have suffered a lifetime _ think people have suffered a lifetime of shame. they were dismissed from the armed forces in disgrace _ dismissed from the armed forces in disgrace. many have criminal records _ disgrace. many have criminal records. they were unable to work in the jobs _ records. they were unable to work in the jobs of— records. they were unable to work in the jobs of their choice. they lost their— the jobs of their choice. they lost their homes, their families, the jobs of their choice. they lost their homes, theirfamilies, their financial— their homes, theirfamilies, their financial security, and have lived lives _ financial security, and have lived lives completely blighted by this apparent ban. but in a remarkable act of— apparent ban. but in a remarkable act of courage, 1145 stepped forward to give _ act of courage, 1145 stepped forward to give evidence, to tell of the darkest— to give evidence, to tell of the darkest days of the armed forces, and i_ darkest days of the armed forces, and i think— darkest days of the armed forces, and i think when that report comes out from _ and i think when that report comes out from lord etherton, it will be a shock— out from lord etherton, it will be a shock to _ out from lord etherton, it will be a shock to the — out from lord etherton, it will be a shock to the public. and it is a travesty— shock to the public. and it is a travesty that that report is being held at— travesty that that report is being held at the moment by the government and it is— held at the moment by the government and it is not— held at the moment by the government and it is not being released to the public _ and it is not being released to the public at— and it is not being released to the ublic. �* , , ., �* and it is not being released to the ublic. ~ , , . ~ . public. at this stage, andrew, what difference would _ public. at this stage, andrew, what difference would an _ public. at this stage, andrew, what difference would an apology - public. at this stage, andrew, what difference would an apology make i public. at this stage, andrew, what. difference would an apology make to you? it difference would an apology make to ou? , ., difference would an apology make to ou? , . , . and, difference would an apology make to you?_ and. sorry. - difference would an apology make to you?_ and, sorry, we i you? it is a start. and, sorry, we are jumping _ you? it is a start. and, sorry, we are jumping ahead _ you? it is a start. and, sorry, we are jumping ahead of _ you? it is a start. and, sorry, we are jumping ahead of things, i you? it is a start. and, sorry, we are jumping ahead of things, we| you? it is a start. and, sorry, we i are jumping ahead of things, we do arejumping ahead of things, we do not know they will be an apology in the report. ho. not know they will be an apology in the re ort. ., . the report. no. so, i have lived with the shame _ the report. no. so, i have lived with the shame of _ the report. no. so, i have lived with the shame of having i the report. no. so, i have lived with the shame of having been| with the shame of having been dismissed by the military for 25 years. there is not a day that goes by that i don't think about what happened to me. because, you