Transcripts For BBCNEWS Newsnight 20170823 : comparemela.com

Transcripts For BBCNEWS Newsnight 20170823



but first, gabriel gatehouse reports from phoenix, where america's increasingly polarised political debate spilled out onto the streets. voiceover: bikers for trump. they came to phoenix, to show support for their president, and, they said, to stop protesters from harassing those who wanted to attend the rally. charlottesville is still fresh in the memory. two radically opposing visions for america clashed, blood was spilt, people died. we don't want to see anybody get hurt. the bikers condemned white supremacists and neo—nazis, and so, eventually, did donald trump, but he was slow and equivocal. many saw in him a president who emboldened racist. for all of us to protect people from threats of violence by protesters. but america is in the grip of a cultural war so polarising, you might wonder whether these two sides lived on the same planet. obama for the last eight yearshas emboldened people to come out and be violent because there has been no consequences for any of it, telling people that the only person in the world that can be a racist is a white man. so, yeah, it concerns me that that is the atmosphere in the country. off—camera, one man told me he hated black people. on camera, others rejected the ku klux klan. they were more reticent, but no less angry. i think they are trying to start a civil war, to be honest. who is? the government. why? i don't know, who knows. i would be the first to take up arms, man, take up arms, for my country. if they come down on our soil, i am ready to defend it, that is the way that i look at it. all these other liberals, goody—goody, they want everybody to... this and that... nothing ever gets done, all talk, all behind doors. we need to bring more stuff out, get things more done. do you think donald trump is getting things done? slowly, yes, he's trying, i believe he is really trying, he has to clean up the mess... clean up the parking lot to make it liveable. shame on you, shame on you. in downtown phoenix, protesters gathered throughout the sweltering afternoon as they watched donald trump supporters arrive. shame on you, racist! neo—nazi sympathisers! get out of here! each side taunted the other, across a police cordon designed to prevent a repeat of charlottesville. if you have been shot by a police officer while resisting arrest... you might bleed out and die... it is really extraordinary that the sitting president, with all the respect americans have for this office, could produce this kind of reaction, that the gulf between this side and that side is so great that it is very hard to see them finding any kind of common ground at all. both sides invoke those same three letters, usa, but in trump's america, they are having trouble on agreeing what usa should actually mean? do any of you have any understanding about where the people on the other side of the barricades are coming from? you do? raise your hand, if you do. you have family... right... tell me about that. they feel very strongly that what mr trump began with the ideas about the economy, meant something, and that he can make change. and they, i don't think, are willing to now say, that is not working, it is backfiring, it is turning into a campaign of hate... and we are having trouble talking to each other. if that is happening in my own family...!... i'm pretty sure that a lot of people over there are having those same kinds of emotions. arizona has some of the most relaxed gun laws anywhere in the united states, and on both sides, weapons were paraded in plain sight. i'm an american. there were some angry confrontations, but no violence. between trump's supporters and his detractors, his presidency may be divisive but it is also invigorating political debate. trump is getting nothing done, the only thing he has signed his legislation... no, you are wrong. inside the conference centre, the president was on classic form, untethered from the teleprompter, his routine is a compelling hybrid. he didn't say it fast enough... he didn't do it on time... why did it take a day... he must be a racist... it is part stand—up comedy, part the work of a demagogue. the very dishonest media, those people right up there with all of the cameras... booing he quoted selectively from his own response to cha rlottesville, accusing the media of doing exactly that as well. this is donald trump in his element, with all his contradictions and his audience love him for it. chanting by the time it was over, night had fallen, the protesters were still there, the police presence had increased. there were more heated arguments, detailed debate about race, crime, statistics. you are holding the numbers and you are lying. percentage per capita of the representation of the united states... no... per capita! but trouble came not between supporters and opponents of the president but between protesters and the police. you have a responsibility, not to him, but to us! officers said that the anti—trump demonstrators threw rocks and bottles. they responded with tear gas, pepper spray and flash—bangs. go, go, go! the police are advancing now. all the people from the rally have been led away, and this is now between the police and the anti—trump protesters. it took several hours to clear the streets. acrid clouds of tear gas lingered, as the protesters dispersed. it was heavy—handed, but they had kept the peace. the day ended without serious violence, but with divisions as entrenched as ever. gabriel gatehouse reporting. if there's a debate about how voters see trump, there's no question over how the president sees the press. in his latest attack he said it's time to expose the crooked media deceptions and accused the journalists of fomenting divisions trying to take away america's history and heritage. so, is this bluster or a real threat to the relationship between the press, the white house and the public? and how much blame does a partisan press have to take? eugene robinson, is the chair of the pulitzer prize board and also the associate editor of the washington post, he joins us from washington. initially, then, your reaction to what we heard from the president in phoenix. it worries me, speaking with my pulitzer prize hat on, right now, that these kinds of attacks... we are used to politicians running against the media, that is a standard sort of technique, and we have thick skin. if you are a journalist, you ought to have a thick skin, that is fine. trump's rhetoric is something we have not heard, referred to the media as enemies of the american people, he has said, as he did last night, they don't love their country, they don't want to make america great again they don't want to make america great... and he has escalated the rhetoric in a way that, frankly, worries me. it could be dangerous. it is very troubling. i think it is something we need to speak out about. define dangerous. you perhaps are familiar with the story... pizzagate. .. the e—mails of the campaign chairman, john podesta, were hacked, a lot of them were about ordering pizza, because that is what political campaigns do... they order pizza, working late into the night... and spirited theorists saw these e—mails, and they deduced there must be some kind of code, and somehow lead to the conclusion that hillary clinton was running a paedophile ring out of a specific pizza restaurant, here in washington...! so, one month after the election, a man from north carolina drove to washington, went to the restaurant, carrying a loaded military style automatic rifle...! he fired a shot, and he demanded to be taken to the basement of the restaurant, so that he could free the enslaved sex enslaved children! there is no basement, of course there were no children, this is complete fabrication! it is fortunate that the customers and employees were not injured in this incident and the man was arrested. but the potential for disaster was there. a restaurant where parents take children to eat. it is not a leap to worry that such a thing could happen to a newsroom. let's ask you, we saw in the report from phoenix tensions running high on both sides, both extremes, the story you have told us about the pizza restaurant, how much is that the real america that we are seeing? my view is that, neither america is more real than the other, no one's america is more real than anyone else‘s, here is what bothers me... it seems to me... in the piece your correspondent did, at one point, there was an argument on the street over a statistic, over facts, we oughta be able to agree on facts. the pulitzer prize has been around for 101 years, all the journalists and playwrights and authors and poets, and composers, who have won pulitzer prizes, they share one thing in common, all engaged in a search for the truth. we must believe that there is truth, that truth does exist and that it can be ascertained as near as possible and we can agree on at least what the facts are, and then, let's argue about them, let's agree on what the facts are. and now, sadly, that sort of consensus about literally a chronicle of events, inside the facts, that consensus seems to have broken down. when you look at a harvard university report which studied the coverage that president trump got in his first 100 days, in print and on television, it reported the coverage was 80% negative. how fair is it to say that perhaps this is not wholly a one—way street, there is some blame from the media? i suppose it is a matter of degree... i certainly cannot or would not defend every single—storey that has been written, but this is a president who speaks in ways no president has, including a total disregard, at times, forfact. that is the truth. if he does it again and again, four times in a day, which is not uncommon!... then it will be reported four times in a day, and the fifth story will report that he said something that actually is based in fact, and so, there you have your 80% negative and your 20% positive. it is an unusual situation, granted. but, what are we to do, except report the facts, as we know them. that is what you and your colleagues must do. how much are you in and your colleagues, how much are you victims of a cultural conflict being played out? i don't think we're victims at all. we are certainly privileged to do what we do, i've done it my entire career and i think journalism is an incredible and fulfilling way of seeing the world, and i think it provides a real public service. but yes, there is a real cultural divide in the united states. i'm not sure we fully understand its dimensions and its potential staying power, but it exists and we report on it and try to understand it, and try to help americans understand it. is it in any way fuelled by bitterness? the position that the media enjoyed up until this president was pretty strong, but now we have a president who takes to twitter, who goes over the heads of you and your colleagues. how much is that the feeling from the media side? well, certainly we are in a new era when the president, who has umpteen million followers on twitter, is able to communicate directly with that many people, without the intervention of the media. that is something we all have to get used to. we also have to get used to the fact that on the web the traditional barriers of entry to be a major player in media have fallen. so you don't have to build a printing plant and buy ink by the barrel and paper by the tonne and hire press men and all of that. in fact, you set up a website and on the web we are all equivalent, basically. and so that's a new environment and we have to live by our wits, and trust that the cream rises to the top. briefly, is this sustainable? the relationship between the white house, the president and the media? well, it will be sustained because there will be the white house and the media, the relationship i hope that thaws and cools off some. we will have to, because we're not going anywhere. thank you for your time. how much jurisdiction will european judges have over our laws after we leave the eu? for the government the answer is simple — none whatsoever. but, as with all things brexit, it may be more complicated. for theresa may this is one of her red lines: having full control over the law is an essential part of the uk regaining its sovereignty. so, you'd expect that after we we leave the eu and the transition is done, that's it... well, not quite. today, the government set out a discussion document. so, when will we "take back control?" chris cook has been taking a look at what ministers want. one of the things we thought we knew about life after we leave eu was that the european court ofjustice wouldn't be part of it. but let me be clear, we are not leaving the european union today to give up control of immigration again, and we're not leaving only to return to the jurisdiction of the european court ofjustice. so we will take back control of our laws and bring an end to thejurisdiction of the european court ofjustice in britain. we want to make sure that we are ending, that we are ending the jurisdiction of the european court ofjustice. for some brexiters it was enormously important that all of our laws should be written by our parliaments and they should be interpreted by our courts, including the supreme courts. that meant ending the role of the european court ofjustice. the ec] is the body that make sure eu law is evenly applied across the whole european union. it's a thing that turns the rights and responsibilities of the treaties, into reality. let's suppose after brexit that we sign a comprehensive free trade deal that lets european businesses trade freely in the uk and vice versa. the government's plan is that here in britain our courts should enforce those rights, with no cases sent to the ec]. the thing is, though, to take a few examples, the eu's agreements with canada, singapore and the members of the european economic area contain courts. why? for the same reason our government is proposing a new uk—eu court. we need a sort of enforcement mechanism, that's really what you have to think of this as. because if we've gone to the bother of agreeing rules in some deep and comprehensive free trade agreement, the people who feel perhaps they're not getting the access they should under that agreement, want some way of getting redress. so if you've been trying to export to an eu country, you think its rules are discriminating against you, you want some way of appealing to another authority, to say — actually, these people aren't abiding by the rules. i think, overall, this is a really informative and pretty useful paper. what came through most strongly for me is the fact that so much attention is being devoted to how to ensure alignment between our legal system and the eu legal system after we've left, means the government now has one of its priorities to ensure we can keep trading, by making sure our legal system is as closely aligned to that of the eu as possible. but there may be problems, not least with escaping the ecj's influence. first, a deep relationships with the eu probably means aligning our regulations to theirs. but the more we do that, the more the ec] will matter. for example, in the field of aviation, outside the eu, if there is an arbitration panel, and these arbitrations wouldn't be at the european court ofjustice, but since all the rules and all the regulations are adopted at eu level, they continue to be interpreted by the european court ofjustice and this arbitration would really be instructed to take all that case law into account. second, the eu may want a bigger role for the ec] in its relationship with britain. for me, there are two potential sticking point. the first is to do with the ratification, because, remember, this is about the trade deal and the trade deal has to be approved notjust by the european council, but by the national parliaments of the member states, and therefore i wonder whether all parliaments will agree to setting up a bespoke new adjudication mechanism. and the big problem is, there are still some areas like the rights of eu citizens in the uk, where the eu is insisting that eu law should apply, and for that you have to have a role for the european court ofjustice. and there's no obvious or easy way round that. third, you can have enforce your eu rights at a local court, but who will get to take cases to the new eu—uk body? it's not clear to me that these proposals would allow a business which has difficulties exporting to france, for example, to actually access a court directly and make their claims under the agreement. this would all have to be done between the uk government and the european union, and so not only business, but if there rights also for people to move, or other rights, they would not be directly enforceable in the same way as they are now. our government now has a settled view on which court should be supreme, but the ec] may not go away, and businesses in particular may worry about how they enforce their rights. in 2003, two innocent girls were leaving a party in birmingham. charlene ellis and letisha shakespeare were gunned down in a gang related drive by shooting. the feuding gangs were thejohnson crew and the burger bar boys. 11! years later, west midlands police is still dealing with gang violence in the city and specifically the same two gangs which killed charlene and letisha. today, those gangs were given what police are calling the largest ever gang injunction. think of a gang injunction as similar to an asbo. it requires a lower burden of proof than a criminal conviction and is designed to disrupt and prevent gang related behaviour and violence. for the next two years, eighteen men, aged between 19—29 are banned from parts of birmingham and must register phones and vehicles with police. a little earlier i spoke to marcia shakespeare, letisha's mother and asked her... how she felt when she heard the names of the two gangs who killed her daughter again today. i felt angry and disgusted to know that 11! years on, i'm constantly hearing the same gangs, the same two names are still terrorising parts of birmingham, and i can't understand why they are not stamped out. i know when i went and did some initial research within new york, when i met some bloods and crips over there, and they seemed to be quite faded, so i can't understand why these gangs are continuously happening and continuously recruiting young people. so there's been a marked uptick in violence this year, with a number of fatal shootings, not necessarily involving any of the people who are subject to this injunction, but why do you suppose that is? what is the problem with birminham? well, i know from speaking to young people who i work with, young boys in particular, they state that the problem is what they're getting is they're walking on the streets, and when they're walking on their own, they're being attacked by people, large groups are trying to take things from them. they're been threatened with knives, and because of this a lot of the young people have decided to join gangs, because they feel safe if they're within a group, rather than walking on their own. so that is another area that also needs to be challenged, about young peoplejoining gangs, because...for protection. it's notjust the knives or the weapons, they're actually joining gangs for protection. the west midlands police and crime commissioner said in an interview today that what will help back it up is that the eyes and ears of the community will focus on these people and if they see any of these gang members in the wrong area, they will phone the police and therefore the police can take action. you'd have to be mighty brave to shop one of these gang members, wouldn't you? yes, because i know from my case, through the trial, it took a lot for people to come forward. and even when they did come forward, there were points when they actually decided they were going to turn around and not give evidence, solely because of the threat level of the gangs trying to control them, and also trying to attack them or family members. so yes, although you've got the gang injunctions and it states it that it will stop gangs going in different areas, i can't see the difference between tagging and gang injunctions. but as i said, i'm open—minded and hope. i appreciate you're not the architect of it, but isn't that where this whole idea could actually fall down? you almost need like a witness protection programme, if i'm going to shop some of these people, i want to know that my family and i are going to be guarded round the clock. yes, and that is very hard, and i know through work previously, working with the police in new york and the one thing they did state that a lot of the witness protection, many family members have had to move towns, cities and countries. so, yes, it's a big ask, and that's why i say, even though you have gang injunctions, it cannot work on its own. there have to be other things in place. now the only thing that is curious to me is, ok, you have the gang injunctions, but who is monitoring it? is this a 24—hour watch, where police are within the community, monitoring and seeing these people within the gangs? you've also got social networks where people obtain different sim cards, where they can actually make different phone calls and they can contact people. so i'm very curious to see how this is going to work. can i put it to you, you're quite close, obviously, to west midlands police. do you think they have the necessary resources? without the community, no. 0k. finally, what sustains you in your work? i would say love of letisha. love of your daughter. my faith. my faith and the young people. when you see young people, there are a lot of great young people within birmingham, however it's about opportunities and chances. a lot of them, unfortunately, don't have the opportunities and they're not educated, because unfortunately sometimes they're just grouped into one particular group and they give up on the first hurdle. so when you see hard young people, you know that you've got to keep going to allow some young people to have those opportunities. marcia shakespeare, thanks forjoining us tonight. thank you. kirk dawes used to work for the west midland police. he founded the centre for conflict transformation, which was credited with reducing gangland violence in the city between 2004 and 2012 — when it was shut. he is in birmingham tonight. the same question if i can that i put to the campaign and victim's mother, wide birmingham? i think that between 2004—12, as you say, there was a lot of great work through what was called birmingham reducing gang violence, that enabled us to reduce the number of firearms offences, knife offences and the like and the number of people in gangs. why birmingham? i think there is a resurgence, in regard to some of the youngsters coming up right now. one of the things i would say is there was a good strategy and that strategy effectively stopped in 2012. it's fair, is it not, to question whether west midlands police have the personnel and resources to implement this? it is fair. the reduction to the police services has taken away their capacity to deal with the upsurge they have now. what we are forgetting is the great work that was done at that time by community groups, specialists in the role of dealing with gangs. in essence, what you got was... if we go back to the gang injunction itself, one big part of the gang injunctions are positive requirements. that's what was utilised, with people from the community, to enable us to actually become involved in moving gangs away from their lifestyle and towards better opportunities. that's why positive requirements are there. what we have seen today, what i've read in the media, is quite simply lots of things around in enforcement, disruption and the like, but i haven't heard anything about positive requirements. what are those requirements? anything that the public authorities, with partner agencies, consider reasonable. such as... discharging a firearm means there is a conflict and with that conflict, just by saying x cannot meet y, cannot travel down a certain street, will be in a certain part, you'd do not deal with the conflict. a positive requirements was in the past, when it first came about, things like mediation, conflict management, job coaching. you have to give these people are realistic and appealing alternative from the lifestyle they are engaged in. how cost—effective will this be? you and your colleagues did some research on to the cost of police prosecuting murders? at the moment the cost of a murder is about £2 million. certainly that figure was never the amount in any particular year that was given towards the interventions that were being utilised, that brought the figures right the way down. when we started mediation, for instance, it was never expected to work but it did work we engage these people in the conflict ended up discharging a firearm. isn't this wishful thinking? set for two years, you're going to turn some of these men around in two years, pie in the sky? i don't think so. that was set in 200a. like marcia, i went to the united states and spent a lot of time in northern ireland. within two years of gang injunctions coming in and the sort of work the community were bringing in, the numbers fell dramatically. lastly, the community, the eyes and ears, shopping these gang members, you are on the front line, how likely is that? it is difficult for a lot of people to shop at them, but the challenge is for the community and for the police, but i will always say you've still got to deal with the conflicts themselves. thank you very much for your time tonight. in the niche world of staggering mathematicalfeats, the big question is ‘who can recite pi to the most decimal places?‘ a record—holder in the field is daniel tammett, who managed to recall pi to more than twenty thousand places. he's been diagnosed as a high—functioning autistic savant, and in his acclaimed books and lectures, he's shown himself to have a rare and eloquent insight into the condition. his new book, every word is a bird we teach to sing, published tomorrow, is a collection of essays about languages around the world. daniel tammett has been speaking to our culture correspondent stephen smith i kept a list of words, according to their shape and texture. words round as a 3: gobble, covered, cabbage... pointy as a 4: jacket, wide, quick. shimmering as a 5: kingdom... shoemaker... surrounded... numbers felt like my first language in a way that english never did, it felt like a foreign language, being able to recite these numbers like a poem, composed in numbers, or story, was, for me, a way of expressing myself, communicating with other people. and realising for the first time that i had a gift for communication, which is paradoxical, because i am also on the autistic spectrum, all with what we call high functioning autism today, and often people on that spectrum find language difficult, even at the highest end, but it is something i have learned how to master. voiceover: he may have started with numbers but daniel also has an intense relationship with words. he speaks several languages, his new book is part travelogue, part meditation, on the subject of how we communicate in all its variety. one of my favourite words is icelandic, it means midwife, but it literally means light mother, and this is the first ten, 12 digits of pi. the word is ljosmodur. how many bases did you manage to get to with this? 22,514. how did you do that? when somebody sees calligraphy, squiggles on a page, chinese ideograms, to have them memorise it would be impossible, but numbers, for me, they are not squiggles on a page, they have shaped and colours and textures and meanings. these meanings are intuitive, but... they are so full of poetry. in my mind, each number had a shape. complete with colour and texture and occasionally motion. a neurological phenomenon which scientists call synaesthesia, each shape a meaning. the meaning could be pictographic. 89 was dark blue, the colour of the sky. threatening storm. you are looking at, reaching some tentative conclusions, about the changing relationship between the written and the spoken word. in this age of digital communication. yes. can you tell us about that? what is fascinating is that language is merging in a way that linguists had not expected, 50, even 30 years ago. we are seeing with computers now and people writing more and more online that they are using essentially spoken language but in a way that is written. using the same abbreviations, the same slang. the same expressions that we would not have seen written in the past. and it is changing our relationship with language. there are people who say, it is a form of dumbing down. standards dropping... i am more optimistic. talking about autism, what would you say to parents, young people, who are faced with this condition and are perplexed about it, concerned about it. it brings benefit, there have been wonderful poets, autism does bring benefit, and many writers in the past, maybe that in nabokov, lewis carroll, they may have been on the spectrum. we know that there is this fantastic potential. what the barrier is in part is society, society up until very recently did not realise that people on the autistic spectrum had creativity and could create, they assumed that people could memorise, that they could be like machines, in a way, robots, calculators, but not writers, not artists, sculptors. one day, intent on my reading, i happened upon lollipop, and a shock ofjoy coursed through me. i read it as, 1,011, and i thought it was the most beautiful thing i had yet read. half number, half word. stephen smith there. from numbers to symbols... what does pound sign barcamp mean to you? not a lot i expect, but it's historic because it was the first time a hashtag, as it's now of course known, appeared on twitter, and that was ten years ago today. here's the man who came up with the idea, chris messina, telling #newsnight about how it happened. ten years ago today i was one of the first users of social media, and i saw the great potential of this platform to bring people together. the problem with early twitter, early platforms, especially in the early days of the iphone, was that it was just a mess. we needed a way of actually organising conversations effectively, simply and easily. i thought the hashtag would be a great way to do that, and i wrote up my ideas, i shared it on the web, i spent the next several years actually promoting this idea and getting it adopted. ten years later, i'm super thrilled with how much it's grown, how much it's expanded and how people are actually using it to find people who they want to connect with, have conversations with and use to understand the world around them. that's nearly all for tonight, but in tribute to chris messina's invention we thought we'd leave you with some hashtag highlights. goodnight. right, let's go and get a hashtag cup of tea then! laughter hashtag where is summer? good evening. we have some quiet weather on the way over the coming few days after a ll on the way over the coming few days after all the flooding in the heavy rain that we had earlier on in northern ireland and then first thing this morning across north yorkshire. that thundery rain, as it was, has pushed through. this was earlier on in the day and it has pushed away the last of the warm and humid airthat we pushed away the last of the warm and humid air that we have had. it left a bit of cloud over the south—east but it left us with a gorgeous sunset here in london. over the next few days we are going to enjoy some sunshine. there will be a few showers around. these are most likely, i think, showers around. these are most likely, ithink, across showers around. these are most likely, i think, across the northern half of the uk. where we have one or two showers coming into northern ireland over the irish sea, we still have this rain in the north sea and thatis have this rain in the north sea and that is moving from orkney up towards shetlands. clearer skies across many parts of the country. a cool and fresh night compared to recently. many places starting dry and sunny in the morning. there will be one or two showers dotted about. a few turning a bit wetter towards the north—west and that rain still having up towards shetland as well. the wettest weather will be across the north—west of the uk because we are the north—west of the uk because we a re closest the north—west of the uk because we are closest to an area of low pressure so are closest to an area of low pressure so a few more showers arriving in the afternoon into northern ireland western scotland. one or two sharp showers perhaps in eastern scotland and towards the north east of england. many parts of england and wales having a dry day. a little but of cloud bubbling up here and there but some good spells of sunshine. the winds will be quite light as well. temperatures about normalfor light as well. temperatures about normal for this light as well. temperatures about normalfor this time of light as well. temperatures about normal for this time of year. 18 of the north, 22 in the south—east. during the evening we have sunshine to end the day across england and wales. it will quickly turn chilly towards the north—west. still low showers keep going, close to that area of low pressure that i mentioned. the south across the uk could will be drier and fresher, because pressure will be that bit higher. more sunshine on the way across the south—eastern half of the uk. lots of sunshine here. a little bit of cloud developing in wales in northern england, probably going to be dry. more showers coming into scotla nd be dry. more showers coming into scotland and perhaps some stronger spells of rape in northern ireland. pegging the temperatures back and getting warmer as you head towards the south—east. temperatures higher than thursday, possibly into the mid—20s. we will reach those sorts of levels over the weekend. again, drier and more settled weather. maybe some showers but on the whole lot of dry weather and some sunshine. again, the showers are more likely across scotland and northern england. temperatures about 19 or 20 celsius. have a good night. i'm rico hizon in singapore. the headlines: more questions about us naval operations in the pacific after the commander of the seventh fleet is sacked. new revelations from the defeated us presidential candidate, hillary clinton, who describes donald trump as a creep. it was incredibly uncomfortable. he was literally breathing down my neck. my skin crawled. i'm babita sharma in london. also in the programme: south africa holds an online auction of rhino

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