Transcripts For BBCNEWS Newsnight 20170511

That everybody wants. Many of the ideas have a popular ring on the doorstep. Will voters trust those bearing the message . David grossman has been gauging reaction. I normally vote for labour. Im a member of the labour party. But im loathe to say what i really think at the minute. Go on, tell me. No. And where does this manifesto fit into the political firmament . 0ur panel is raring to go, with our left right blackboard. Good evening. It was not so long ago we moaned about all Political Parties looking and sounding the same. Failure to offer proper choice to the voter, failure to bring anything new to the table. Well, no one looking at labours manifesto in whatever form it finally emerges can parrot that line now. If the leaked draft remains true to character, then this is a bold political treatise, and one were exploring across the show tonight. It offers a role for the state, perhaps not seen since the post war days of clement attlee. It seeks bigger National Services for both health and education, on top of the renationalisation of some rail and energy firms. You can call it backward looking, if the talk of unions and a new Department For Labour makes you think of the 1970s. You can call it forward looking, if you think it speaks to a generation emerging from britains worst economic crisis with little. It is inJeremy Corbyns words a promise to transform the lives of many people. And it involves huge quantities of new spending, not yet costed. Tonight, we will analyse the politics, the policies and the reaction so far. Nick watt, our political editor, is here now. We know that we have not got the costings in what we know today, but did this satan more in a meeting about whether leagues came from . Jeremy corbyn is furious with the leak and he has commissioned an independent commission to find out what happened and his allies believe the moderates, the people in the Labour Movement to tried and failed to dislodge him last year, that they were behind the leak. They regard this as a deeply hostile act to ensure that the manifesto was betrayed as it was on the front page of the Daily Telegraph today as a throwback to the 1970s. What these allies of corbyn are saying, they think the moderates want this to be seen as a new version of the 1983 manifesto, so that would ensure a heavy defeat for labour and they would be able to come after him again. One corbyn allies said they are utterly confident the manifesto is not like 1983 and it is a punter friendly. There are compromises but i was told if a socialist Campaign Group of labour mps have persuaded the ed miliband to do this last time, they would have been ecstatic. Any word from the moderates tonight . Perish the thought they would have reached this manifesto, of course some believe this manifesto is about turning out to the Core Labour Vote Onjune 8th soJeremy Corbyn does not suffer a heavy defeat and he can stay on as labour leader. I was told by one senior figure on the so called moderate side today that John Mcdonnell faced questioning today over what was described as the vast spending commitments in this manifesto, and he did say, it is fully costed and that will be published next week. But then a senior Labour Figure said this to me, this manifesto, will never be implemented, so it is all rather academic. So in a way, today really ended up being the unofficial launch of the Labour Manifesto. Prime minister corbyn . It has been a bruising journey. For a manifesto he believes should provide the route into number 10. Today was meant to be a relatively low key event. But the traditional pre election clause five meeting to approve the Labour Manifesto turned into a bit of a media circus after Draft Versions were leaked. IfJeremy Corbyn could wave a magic wand, he would not be producing this exact document, it commits a future Labour Government to renewing Trident Nuclear deterrent after he failed to change party policy, but the leaked versions do encapsulate his key beliefs about the need for a massive programme of Public Investment, the gradual nationalisation of hezbollah but railways and other state intervention. Labour were forced to finalise the manifesto at short notice but this did not have the feel of something scribble out on the back of a packet. The details will be set out to you including the costings for the pledges and promises that we make. Chief strategists have been working on the document sinceJeremy Corbyns election last year, after becoming convinced the Prime Minister would go to the polls. 0ne early supporter, he became disillusioned withJeremy Corbyn, was impressed. I do think the manifesto in terms of its key policies and the vision, because people generally do not vote on individual policies, a vision about realising this countrys great potential, not being held back because of vested interests and investing in Public Services and the economy, if that cuts through, labour had a chance to turn this around. 0ne veteran of the labour elections agrees this will appeal on the doorsteps, but there is a weakness. It is an extraordinary document from what we have seen, it has got everything in it. A cornucopia of ideas, everything everybody said the focus group they would like the government to do for them. The problem is, that is kind of not how it works with election pledges, that does not give you credibility. Take the and energy prices, ed miliband introduced it and promised it and they looked at him and did not believe he would deliver. The so called Labour Moderates had feared the corbyn team would produce a 21st century version of the partys 1983 manifesto, famously dubbed the longest suicide note in history. 0ne veteran of labours most recent election loss believes this comparison is only partially fair. You see quite a lot of material in this manifesto familiar to people from the 2015 manifesto. I see quite a lot in this manifesto which will be familiar for people who watched the 1983 General Election as we were heading to disaster. I think the truth the manifesto and for a general Election Campaign is we never know what it means until afterwards. The country will soon be sizing up the choice between labour and its vision of Public Investment and theresa may and have gained strong and stable leadership. Corbyn supporters believe they are on stronger ground. David cameron promised in the 2015 election stability against the chaos of ed miliband, we have not had a more chaotic period since world war ii in british history so they have not quite delivered on that. In four weeks time, britain could have a Prime Minister who for 30 years was shunned by his own party as a marginal figure on the left. We now have a chance to decide whetherJeremy Corbyns vision, with the odd revision, should entitle him to take his place in number10. Barry gardiner, who was in that meeting, joins me now. Thank you very much. The ifs says this manifesto is about the state getting deeply involved in much more of the private sector than it has been since 1970s, and perhaps since the 1940s. Is that right . No, i dont think so at all. What we are doing, we are trying to free people of from the things that are holding them back. If you look at a young couple today, they cannot get even a deposit for a rented accommodation, they cannot get a mortgage, they cannot start a family. And they are saying, why . We both havejobs, we both work, and we cannot do the things our parents easily could have done at that age. Teachers feel they are not able to be doing in schools and teaching children the way they would want. But you would not be against the state getting bigger to help . It is not about the state, it is bringing people up and letting them do the things they can do and they should be doing, innovation. It was so funny when you had the peace at the very beginning. The woman was almost criticising this manifesto. The trouble is, this offers people everything. This is ifs reading your manifesto it so far, the state getting deeply involved in much more of the private sector in a way it has not since the 1970s and perhaps the 1940s, that is wrong, we will see a smaller state . Where will we be . What we are trying to do is trying to enable people to get on with their lives and feel that they are properly rewarded for doing the things that they just simply wants to do. So is the state going to be bigger, smaller, the same . Its a very simple question. The state will regulate in terms of taxation and you have seen what the conservatives have said, they will not give a promise on vat. We talk about nationalisation and intervention, lots of ways he will spend more on infrastructure, you talk about a National Education service and National Health service, so tell us the state will get bigger and we are proud of it is it not wonderful we are talking about putting half a trillion pounds. I dont know why you seem to be embarrassed to be backing. I am not embarrassed, you are trying to put me into a form of words and i do not want the form of words, we should talk about the substance. You are talking semantics, and want to talk about the substance. The substance that says we are going to do it across three, not just a second crossrail in london, from the west coast to the east coast of the north of england. Those are big ideas. Is this a socialist manifesto and if the country votes for your Labour Government, do we become a socialist country, a social Democrat Country . You are obsessed with labels, lets talk about the issue. There is a philosophy here from a man that has believed the same things for three decades. Im trying to understand. It is notjust from a man, it is from today, there were 60 people in that room. Ed miliband said he was a socialist and proud, are you a socialist, is this a socialist manifesto . The labour party has always been a socialist Democratic Party and that is where i will always stand, but it is not about me and names, it is ensuring the people who feel they are held back in this country. Social care centres are closing, they have taken £4. 6 million out of social care because the health service, the figures today, 2. 5 Million People now waiting more than four hours to get into an accident and emergency. These are the issues. We are saying we have solutions to this and the lady said it is what everybody wants. You are right, big efforts to increase spending on social care and the nhs and education we heard from Jeremy Corbyn yesterday. Taking back the franchises on the railways. One area that will appeal to voters is immigration. Their rules and reasonable management of immigration. They have to be fair. There is not an awful lot in the pages we have seen so far about the immigration policy. We know you do not like the theresa may idea of Tens Of Thousands of a cap. Is there any. Theresa may does not like the Tens Of Thousands idea because she tried to get down to Tens Of Thousands and she promised to when she was Home Secretary and it is now 270,000. She did not do very well there. That was when she was Home Secretary. You have said do not bother with the cap . No, let me be clear, we will put our Economic Policy before our immigration policy, and we will make sure we have immigration into this country that is beneficial to our economy, that creates jobs analysis id, that allows us to be a prosperous and Innovative Society where we are growing our economy. That is the right way to do it. She is subordinating the Economic Policy to immigration control. If im a labour voter, i care about immigration and i want to know what that means in concrete terms and you say it is 270,000, would you be happy to see that go up . Let me be very clear, at the moment for the rest of the world, we have immigration controls. Tier one and two and four visas. Different types of controls. That is what we have. They have those controls in place. And talk to me broadly, would you be happy if it went up . Immigration numbers will always go both down and up according to the needs of the economy. If they go up to half a million, you are relaxed . If it is beneficial to our economy and it providesjobs and growth in this country, and if thatjobs and growth is distributed fairly through the system, because that has been a problem with the way society is run, it has not been distributed fairly through the system. It could go up to one million and you would say, thats fine, we are relaxed because it is benefiting the economy . It is silly trying to trap me into a number. It is not a trap. You are talking to voters for whom immigration is literally the central issue, it is what drove many people to vote for brexit. Is it . Do you not think theirjob is the central issue, they are not in a zero hour contract and they cant afford to even set up a home or start a family, is that not the central issue. Labours message is that immigration is not a priority. Again, you are trying to trap me into a form of words. It is not about it not being a priority or not the number one priority, we are saying the key thing in our society is to have a fair society, that is why we are talking about fair management and control about immigration. There is nothing in here about Free Movement. Of course not. Because Free Movement, when we leave the european union, and we accept we are leaving the eu, the Free Movement of people goes. The Free Movement only exists within the internal market and we are not going to be in the internal market. And you are accepting that if a Labour Government is in power in june you will accept that Free Movement goes . We have already said that that is not in your manifesto, why dont you say you dont mind Free Movement going . Forgive me, you have seen a leaked draft of a manifesto, you havent seen before manifesto. Is it in the 41 . You will see on tuesday. Keir starmer has been saying for weeks that the labour party accepts that we are leaving the eu, and, as we are leaving, we are no longer going to be a member of the eu, and therefore Free Movement of people stops because it is Free Movement within the internal market. That is not actually in the draft. Lets go to be exciting things about this manifesto. Which is about innovation, a vision for society which is creating a low carbon economy, low carbon future, doing all of the things for the environment, making sure that we protect the environment in the way that this government wants to deregulate it. This is a wonderful list of policies, there is a something for everyone, it is a catalogue of delightful things, and yet weve have this poll of people you on the back of this, saying that fundamentally people you are presumably quite friendly towards it. They are saying there is no confidence in the capability of the leadership to deliver this. It will be costed, exactly how much it will cost, and where that money is coming from, so we are absolutely clear that we can deliver all the things that we are promising. Even though a week ago today you were losing 500 counsellors in the local though a week ago today you were losing 500 counsellors in th in cal elections, you were losing it in glasgow, you were losing. Whats that got to do with money . I didnt talk about money, i talked about credibility in your party to deliver this and surely you have already been to the electorate wants this month and they dont seem to believe that you are the party that is capable of delivering. So you think we have lost the election before the vote 2 counted . We have lost the election before the vote ; counted . Egjj they want. All the things they want. All the things they think have been holding them backin they think have been holding them back in society are going to be taken away, that there will be a redress of the inequalities in this country and that is the way that people can move from what they thought about local elections in rural areas to whats going to happen on june the rural areas to whats going to happen onjune the eighth. Calls have policies. The Conservative Party next monday will not give you a single policy. They have kept their ministers stumped the whole time. Rural areas like glasgow . We have the policies to take britain forward. They dont. Thanks very much for coming in. So will this emerge as the manifesto Jeremy Corbyn has dreamed of these past decades . How radical will it look in practice . Perhaps the Standout Statement is the unashamed commitment that comes next week. We have been told it has already been sorted out. But what will Jeremy Corbyns britain look like . Here is a glimpse. The leaked Labour Ma Nifesto here is a glimpse. The leaked Labour Manifesto has proved to be fil§fifiifi¥§ manifesto has proved to be fil§fifiefi¥§ each