Does that mean we can stop worrying about the deficit . The parties are not saying much about money at the moment. But taxes, spending and borrowing are what governments do. Tonight, well ask if election promises on tax and spending can really be painlessly paid for. Also tonight, the 15 year old Anorexia Sufferer who took her own life after being discharged from Mental Health care against her parents wishes. Well hear from the writer emma woolf, who suffered from the illness for ten years. What can be done about anorexia . And Cornelia Parker has been appointed the official Election Artist. Whats caught her cultured eye so far . You do like a dimpled seat. I hope i am not fixated on bottoms. Hello. However hard the parties may try to control election campaigns, they are inevitably punctuated by unpredictable events. Those prescott punch moments. Weve not had anything quite like that yet, but labour today had its most awkward moment of the campaign so far. By far. A big announcement on police numbers, and then, on lbc, The Shadow Home Secretary diane abbott faced presenter nick ferrari this is ms abbott on the daily politics listening back to that interview. How much would 10,000 Police Officers cost . Well, if we recruit the 10,000 policemen and women over a four year period, we believe it will be about £300,000. £300,000 for 10,000 Police Officers . Sorry. What are you paying them . No, i mean. Sorry. How much will they cost . They will cost. It will cost. Um, about. About £80 million. About £80 million . Yes. I have seen worse on dragons den. 0ur Political Editor nick watt is here. It was excruciating. Excruciating, embarrassing worthy adjectives thrown around today and that was the labour side. You know things are going badly when your fellow frontbenchers, in this case on the labour side, arejoking with conservative ministers on the other side about how badly you have done. Privately, diane abbott is telling friends it was a car crash into privately, diane abbott is telling friends it was a car crash interview. 0ne friend said it is a bit like a moment when you wake up and you think, was it really that bad . And the answer is yes, it was. These accidents happen and it is not the first time nick ferrari has put someone in that situation, Natalie Bennett in the last election of the green party. What does it tell us . The danger is this. It makes labour looks dysfunctional and it plays into the conservative narrative that you have certainty with them and chaos under a future labour government. Interestingly it shows there are poor relations between two of the leading members of the Shadow Cabinet who are old comrades on the left, which is diane abbott who was supposed to introduce the 10,000 officers, and John Macdonald the shadow chancellor who is meant to pay for them. I understand diane abbott until 2am this morning was poring over a Labour Document on this because she feared the weak spot for her in the interview is labour had indicated the policy areas that would be paid forfrom the pot she was using, the 2. 7 billion from reversing a cut in Capital Gains tax. She had an answer to that when she was asked on the today programme. She said this was before the manifesto and this is the manifesto but when she was asked the simple question, how much would it cost, her friend said she was thrown off her stride. Well, in most elections, everything comes back to money, which is why questions are always asked about costings. If anything, this one so far has been about brexit, and its as though the deficit, which dominated for years, has been forgotten. So the well regarded and independent Institute For Fiscal Studies has published a realty check today, helpfully telling us everything about it, and what it is that the last two parliaments have done, or not done to it. It covers the deficit, on taxes and spending. So whats the story . Chris cook has been delving inside the ifs report. 0ne topic was central to the last two General Elections. We will half the deficit over the next four yea rs. As we reduce the deficit. Our country is facing the largest Budget Deficit in modern history. And you can expect it to recur in this one. We need a credible plan for dealing with the deficit. Despite a rather different contexts. We will clear the deficit as soon as possible. The financial crisis and recession increase the deficit to the highest level since the Second World War back in 2009 10. It has generally fallen since and is back to level before the crisis, a bit above the average but not high by historical standards, so there is a case for more deficit reduction, not least because we have racked up debt over the years but not a deficit so large it is extraordinary or out of normal bounds. It stands at about 3 of national output, which is a bit high but less than the deficits of france, the us and japan. More than the deficits in germany or ireland and the permanent memento of the crisis, the debt burden is 80 , still smaller than the us, france and japan, but again ahead of germany or ireland. Since 2010 there have been some things that have not been restrained from growing, like pensions. There are things that have been relatively shielded, like the nhs. There are some things that have been boosted, Like International development. 0verall, there has been a major spending squeeze. After the financial crisis spending rose to a peak of around 45 of output and since then, it has been squeezed to the precrisis level ofjust under a0 . Now tax receipts have in recent years just started to creep up. But it is Spending Cuts that have done most of the working closing the deficit. The fiscal problem for the government is we are seven years into the Austerity Drive and the low Hanging Fruit has been plucked. It is hard to see how the nhs will stay within its budget for the next few years. It is already miles of targets and schools are planning to lay off teachers to get through the next budget round. And the Prison System is creaking. Austerity is a lot harder than it used to be. Doing Spending Cuts painlessly will become more difficult over time. The waste and low value programmes are likely to have been eliminated already and if we look at the last election, David Cameron was adamant the government could take 1 a year out of public spending the first two years but the data shows spending rose in those years. Instead of taking 15 billion out they have added 23 billion. That is why the tories have drifted into line with what were ed milibands spending plans. The tories attacked labour in 2015 for planning to spend more and we can expect that argument this time around but if the conservatives want to close the deficit by the next parliament, they need another £15 billion in tax hikes or Spending Cuts. And all the easy Spending Cuts have gone. Chris philp is a conservative mp on the treasury select committee. Mariana mazzucato is professor in the economics of innovation and public value at ucl, and sat on the labour partys Economic Advisory committee. Chris, why did the tories implement ed milibands manifesto during the parliament that is just finishing . The conservatives did what was fiscally responsible, taking down labours deficit down to 3 . That is not the question, it was why have you implemented ed milibands rather than your own goals . It is only two years. He went into the campaign with a lot of promises. You will attack the labour party in this one on the same grounds. I ask why you implemented their policy . I do not think labour had the first intention of implementing that policy. It does not matter. Every measure we have taken to get the deficit under control was opposed by the labour party, every measure. The fact we have got it down from a peak of 10 to 3 is an incredible achievement. I mean by difficult circumstances the turbulence in the eurozone. We have had an election since the turbulence in the eurozone and elected you on the basis of a manifesto and criticisms you made of ed miliband and you have implemented the ed miliband fiscal strategy. At the time many said your fiscal plans lacked credibility and you said trust us, we can do it. We have it from the ifs that you couldnt and you delivered the ed miliband plan. Public spending in real terms has been constant at. It has increased and you said you would reduce it. Your chart showed it down to 38 of gdp and it has been constant around 760 billion a year. You are quoting departmental expenditure limits. It would be ridiculous for voters to listen to what you have to say about Labour Spending and tax plans, given what you said last time will stop we have reduced labours deficit. You keep repeating. I am saying what happened at the last election is you criticised ed milibands plans and then deliver them. Why would we believe you if you make new criticisms because you might implement those. Its taken longer than we thought. Going back to 2010 we hoped to eliminate the deficit by 2015. It is heading in the right direction. Every measure we have taken the labour party have opposed. Only one party is fighting this with credibility and it is the conservative party. Does the Deficit Need Attention . It is higher than the historical average. Should getting the deficit down be a goal of the next government . First, a correction, the deficit was not an average ten, 11 under labour. Governments around the world after the crisis saved the capitalist system, Counter Cyclical stimulus obviously costs money. You are picking up a number during a year after the crisis. It was one year when governments saved the capitalist system. Deficits matter but what matters is what you are spending on. The figures you showed are telling. Italys deficit today is lower than the uk deficit. Italys deficit has been lower what matters is how you are growing. What matters and what both parties should be talking about and are not, is the big elephant in the room, the source of growth in this country continues to be private debt, consumption led growth, not investment ledw the issue of private debt to Disposable Income is back at record levels since before the crisis. What would your fiscal target be . 4 of gdp, 3 . You are obsessing. If the numbers are always going to be there. Did she learn anything from the excel sheet problem when they obsessed on this terrible number, when it went over 90, the debt to gdp, that was found to be irrelevant. It does not tell us much. I get from what you are saying that the kind of spending. Next question. Is spending more on police and welfare and more on all the things we know the labour party would like to spend more on, is that the kind of spending that gives you long term growth . You need long term growth, you want a plan for the country. Whether it is germanys energy policy, not just capital expenditure, innovation, infrastructure, it is a type of spending you could call consumption, trying cars sold in norway . They focus on a particular consumption. This dilemma, should we spend on nurses or infrastructure. People are worried if you say it is a false question. The data shows it is a false question. Plenty of weak countries have low debt to gdp ratio stats, what does that tell you . Do you think in this campaign it will be an issue . Do you think this election campaign, we will talk about brexit in europe . I think it will be an issue because the labour party are making promises that cost a lot of money, and they have no idea how to pay for it, whereas the conservatives will be responsible. The more irresponsible promises we hearfrom labour to be paid for by our children. Its going to be an issue . Spending on education. Why are headteachers all over the country protesting . Are they foolish . Crosstalk. Lets not argue about it, we know it is going down. Productivity is lagging. The increase in real incomes has gone to over 60 year olds. We have an increasingly financial economy, personal debt to Disposable Income is back to record levels. How can you call that achievement . We need to leave it there. Well, back to the issue that is dominating the campaign brexit. Jean Claude Juncker has tried to do to theresa may, what nick ferrari did to diane abbott. He appeared to try to show that she has no grasp of the complex details of her big project. Certainly, weekend lea ks about an awkward discussion at no 10 last wednesday have shown how hostile the mood might become. Nick is still with me. Politically, all these headlines about them getting together and saying the uk is deluded, how do you think it plays . Cabinet ministers believe this will play nicely put them in the General Election. One of them said, this shows the germans want to be nasty to us. So we will say to the british people, do you want asJeremy Corbyn nations german Chief Of Staff to the European Commission president jean Claude Juncker was behind this briefing in the german press. A bloody difficult woman. The irony is that was the language Point Last Year by Kenneth Clarke who of course was a Big Pro European Tory and the only 0ne senior tory said this showed these negotiations are going to be very, very tough. Amongst ministers, opinions are divided. Showed they are grand delusions within his own governmentf and he cited the apparent remarks by david davies, the brexit secretary at this dinner, saying if there is no deal and britain crashes out, we will not with a penny. This minister said that would inflict enormous Reputational Damage on the uk. 0ther ministers say these are predictable skirmishings from a well known european federalist, jean Claude Juncker. Well, someone with experience of this is with me now. With me in the studio is yanis va roufakis, on about the brexit dinner . Absolutely not, this is the way in which brussels impedes negotiations. Towards a defensive stance through leaks, distortions, and strategy of making theresa may fight for her right to negotiate. She will be negotiating on her right and opportunity to negotiate. There will be no real negotiations. You famously recorded some of your eurogroup meetings because the briefings were, you wanted to make sure the briefings were accurate at what you had heard in the meeting. Nothing strange about that, i had to report to parliament, to my Prime Minister and cabinet. Im not accusing you, they were distortion . There were no briefings . But the main issue as far as i was concerned, i was engaged in ten hour long negotiations and then would have to go to my parliament and report on what happened. After ten long, strenuous hours, the human mind slips and suddenly becomes hazy. Do you think brexit is going to work out for the uk . You were against it at the time of the referendum. A ranking of preferences, which produces a bad outcome for everyone. Their power, theresa may and jean Claude Juncker, angela merkel, is inversely proportional to the mutual what is driving the deep establishment, the european establishment youre referred to, these are not evil people, that is not your case . Everyone is trying to do their best, it is like watching king lear and you wonder how can these smart people be so deluded, the characters in the tragedy. They are playing their role and what they think they need to do in this situation. Jean Claude Juncker and The Powers That Be in brussels, stuff and possibly get out of the eu. 0n the other hand theresa may, she is locked in to this inanity of putting the end of freedom of movement above Everything Else. Above the interests of british industry, agriculture, universities. So this is a political Co Ordination failure of an immense degree. Politics these days, where are you on the liberal establishment . Because it is the most persecuted group at the moment, it has not had a great couple of years. In many respects you are talking about the liberal establishment and deep establishment as the same thing . They are, to an extent. These days they resemble a person was killed his parents and is pleading for leniency at the court on the grounds that he is an orphan. They have been extremely authoritarian in the way they have dealt with us and are now dealing with theresa may. They have been extremely authoritarian and imposing Loony Economics. The idea that you take the largest loan in Human History and give it to the most bankrupt state in europe is Loony Economics. And now they are in retreat, they are complaining about the alternative facts, distortions and lea ks and the Loony Economics. The deal backer in the uk General Election . Jeremy corbyn for sure, im a leftist. But you are a bit of a fan of Emmanuel Macron in france. In the case of the uk, i think its madness that the labour par