government had recently passed. few days later, metro metropolitan police commissioner issued a statement saying... let's bring in our home affairs correspondent, daniel sandford, in the newsroom for us. a lot has been said about this being a unique event and i suppose whether it called for unique actions, there's going to be a lot of defending those actions in the next hour or so, isn't there? talk us through what you are expecting. i talk us through what you are “petting-— talk us through what you are exectina. .,, ., ., ., . ., expecting. i was there on coronation mornin: , expecting. i was there on coronation morning. at — expecting. i was there on coronation morning, at 6.00 _ expecting. i was there on coronation morning, at 6.00 when _ expecting. i was there on coronation morning, at 6.00 when the - morning, at 6.00 when the anti—monarchy protesters arrived to start their protest. they're obviously had been a lot of concern in the days building up to the coronation that groups likejust stop oil might disrupt the coronation and the horses might become frightened because of that. so the police were worried but the anti—monarchy group republic had an arrangement with the police that where they were going to stand, the police were fully aware of where they were going to be and just before 7.00, some went off to meet a van that was bringing some placards down to the protest and they simply didn't come back. we realised they weren't coming back when the today programme told me their guest, graeme smith, the ceo of republic, had answered his phone for that interview he was doing with them. then we were shown a picture of their van surrounded by police officers. so we went to go and see what had happened and we found that some of the people had already been arrested and taken away and others were being held there in handcuffs at the bottom of scent martins lane, near trafalgar square. they were telling us even then that the police seemed to be expressing an interest in some luggage straps they were using to hold the placards together and that the police had mentioned the phrase locking on. the context of that is just three days earlier, a bit of legislation had come into force making it an offence to go equipped for locking on. that legislation was designed to stop protests where people use things like bike locks and heavy chains to chain themselves to bits of equipment. bits of street furniture, and that legislation was obviously rushed through to prevent disruptive protests at the coronation but ended up protests at the coronation but ended up with members of the group republic spending 16 hours in custody for having what essentially was bits of seat strapping, which could easily be cut with a knife or anything that police officers carry in their vans for cutting people out of their cars after road accidents. eventually, those people were released that evening, after 16 hours in custody. they were then told two days later that they wouldn't be charged. they got personal apologies by police officers attending their homes to apologise. the force has not exactly apologised, saying only that it regrets that they were unable to attend the demonstration and mark rowley has defended the actions of his officers, describing it as a unique event. so the big questions for this home affairs select committee are going to be around the new law, what guidance comes with that new law, whether the new law is drawn too broadly, whether the police were using it appropriately and also, can you have a unique event like a coronation where somehow the rules about protesting are different to any other events? because although the coronation was of course incredibly important for hundreds of thousands of people who turned out for the coronation, it was actually also very important for the anti—monarchy protesters, who had a once in a generation opportunity to say at the moment of the coronation, we don't believe in theirs, we don't like the idea of theirs, we don't like the idea of the monarchy and he is not my king, which is the phrase they were using on the streets. so there is a lot for the home affairs committee to pick apart this morning with matt twist from the metropolitan police. that is who we expect to hear from furs. there were a lot of conservatives in the last couple of weeks who have been talking about how this was an unprecedented security operation, not least because there were hundreds of world leaders here, weren't there? so it wasn'tjust leaders here, weren't there? so it wasn't just that the public safety, that element that they metropolitan police talked about but the issue of having to keep 312 world leaders in london that weekend, keeping them safe. , ., ., , .,, london that weekend, keeping them safe. , ., ., , ., safe. there is no doubt it was an immensely _ safe. there is no doubt it was an immensely successful _ safe. there is no doubt it was an immensely successful security . immensely successful security operation. they had done it all for their queen's funeral and they had more officers working on the day of the coronation and they did manage to protect 312 world leaders, dignitaries, members of the royal family in a sort of security bubble around the abbey and moving them to and from the abbey. they kept safely hundreds of thousands of people who were lining the streets. the coronation itself went off almost completely without incident, and some protesters from groups like just stop oil were allegedly arrested with bottles of paint. so it does seem as if possibly some disruptive protests were prevented but overhanging it is this slightly difficult question of why it is that people who really turned up to wave and shout "not my king" would end up in a rather grimy police cell in a police cell in south london for 16 hours, essentially for having done nothing at all. i was there at the protest after the arrest and certainly some of the people watching the coronation were very annoyed by the anti—monarchy protesters who were shouting very loudly throughout the coronation procession, throughout the service, which was being relayed over speakers and throughout the procession back. but it is not really the job of the police to stop people being annoyed. there is sort of a public order aspect there, in terms of we don't want to have something where a fight starts. but otherwise, obviously the policing... we have a home affairs committee hearing starting right now to look into what happened.— hearing starting right now to look into what happened. exactly, and on that note, into what happened. exactly, and on that note. we _ into what happened. exactly, and on that note, we can _ into what happened. exactly, and on that note, we can take _ into what happened. exactly, and on that note, we can take you - into what happened. exactly, and on that note, we can take you right - into what happened. exactly, and onj that note, we can take you right now to westminster where the committee has just started. we will be hearing from matt twice, assistant commissioner of police operations. golden orb was one of the largest operations— golden orb was one of the largest operations in_ golden orb was one of the largest operations in the _ golden orb was one of the largest operations in the history - golden orb was one of the largest operations in the history of - golden orb was one of the largest operations in the history of the i golden orb was one of the largest i operations in the history of the met and i_ operations in the history of the met and i think— operations in the history of the met and i think it— operations in the history of the met and i think it is _ operations in the history of the met and i think it is to— operations in the history of the met and i think it is to their— operations in the history of the met and i think it is to their credit- and i think it is to their credit that— and i think it is to their credit that they— and i think it is to their credit that they kept _ and i think it is to their credit that they kept everybody - and i think it is to their credit| that they kept everybody safe and i think it is to their credit- that they kept everybody safe and without _ that they kept everybody safe and without major— that they kept everybody safe and without major incidents. - that they kept everybody safe and without major incidents. however| that they kept everybody safe and i without major incidents. however we do have _ without major incidents. however we do have a _ without major incidents. however we do have a series _ without major incidents. however we do have a series of— without major incidents. however we do have a series of questions - without major incidents. however we do have a series of questions about i do have a series of questions about the policing — do have a series of questions about the policing of— do have a series of questions about the policing of protests _ do have a series of questions about the policing of protests at - do have a series of questions about the policing of protests at the - the policing of protests at the coronation _ the policing of protests at the coronation. we _ the policing of protests at the coronation. we have - the policing of protests at the coronation. we have the - the policing of protests at the coronation. we have the twol the policing of protests at the - coronation. we have the two panels this morning — coronation. we have the two panels this morning. the _ coronation. we have the two panels this morning. the first _ coronation. we have the two panels this morning. the first panel- coronation. we have the two panels this morning. the first panel with i this morning. the first panel with the metropolitan— this morning. the first panel with the metropolitan police _ this morning. the first panel with the metropolitan police and - this morning. the first panel with the metropolitan police and the l the metropolitan police and the nationai— the metropolitan police and the national police _ the metropolitan police and the national police chiefs _ the metropolitan police and the national police chiefs council . national police chiefs council representatives _ national police chiefs council representatives and - national police chiefs council representatives and in - national police chiefs council representatives and in the i national police chiefs council - representatives and in the second panel— representatives and in the second panel we — representatives and in the second panel we will— representatives and in the second panel we will hear— representatives and in the second panel we will hear from _ representatives and in the second panel we will hear from hear- representatives and in the secondj panel we will hear from hear from those _ panel we will hear from hear from those arrested _ panel we will hear from hear from those arrested and _ panel we will hear from hear from those arrested and detained - panel we will hear from hear from those arrested and detained plusl panel we will hear from hear fromi those arrested and detained plus a lawyer— those arrested and detained plus a lawyer with — those arrested and detained plus a lawyer with extensive _ those arrested and detained plus a lawyer with extensive experience i those arrested and detained plus ai lawyer with extensive experience in the area _ lawyer with extensive experience in the area so — lawyer with extensive experience in the area so can— lawyer with extensive experience in the area so can i_ lawyer with extensive experience in the area. so can i ask— lawyer with extensive experience in the area. so can i ask our— lawyer with extensive experience in the area. so can i ask our first- the area. so can i ask our first panel— the area. so can i ask our first panel to — the area. so can i ask our first panel to introduce _ the area. so can i ask our firstl panel to introduce themselves. the area. so can i ask our first panel to introduce themselves. would ou like to panel to introduce themselves. would you like to start? _ panel to introduce themselves. would you like to start? good _ panel to introduce themselves. would you like to start? good morning - panel to introduce themselves. you like to start? good morning and thank you. my name is matt twist, the assistant commissioner for met operations. the assistant commissioner for met 0 erations. , ., , operations. chris noble, chief constable _ operations. chris noble, chief constable for _ operations. chris noble, chief constable for staffordshire . operations. chris noble, chief. constable for staffordshire police but for _ constable for staffordshire police but for this hearing i am also the nationai— but for this hearing i am also the national policing lead around the policing — national policing lead around the policing protest.— policing protest. thank you very much. policing protest. thank you very much- we _ policing protest. thank you very much. we are _ policing protest. thank you very much. we are quite _ policing protest. thank you very much. we are quite short - policing protest. thank you very much. we are quite short on - policing protest. thank you very i much. we are quite short on time policing protest. thank you very - much. we are quite short on time and we have _ much. we are quite short on time and we have quite — much. we are quite short on time and we have quite a — much. we are quite short on time and we have quite a lot _ much. we are quite short on time and we have quite a lot of _ much. we are quite short on time and we have quite a lot of members - much. we are quite short on time and we have quite a lot of members who i we have quite a lot of members who want to— we have quite a lot of members who want to ask— we have quite a lot of members who want to ask questions. _ we have quite a lot of members who want to ask questions. so _ we have quite a lot of members who want to ask questions. so if- we have quite a lot of members who want to ask questions. so if you - want to ask questions. so if you could _ want to ask questions. so if you could he — want to ask questions. so if you could be brief— want to ask questions. so if you could be brief and _ want to ask questions. so if you could be brief and your- want to ask questions. so if you | could be brief and your answers, that would — could be brief and your answers, that would he _ could be brief and your answers, that would be helpful— could be brief and your answers, that would be helpful and - could be brief and your answers, that would be helpful and if- could be brief and your answers, that would be helpful and if i - could be brief and your answers, . that would be helpful and if i could implore _ that would be helpful and if i could implore members— that would be helpful and if i could implore members of— that would be helpful and if i could implore members of the _ that would be helpful and if i couldl implore members of the committee that would be helpful and if i could - implore members of the committee to be fairly— implore members of the committee to be fairly succinct _ implore members of the committee to be fairly succinct in _ implore members of the committee to be fairly succinct in their _ be fairly succinct in their questioning. _ be fairly succinct in their questioning, that- be fairly succinct in their questioning, that wouldl be fairly succinct in their. questioning, that would be be fairly succinct in their - questioning, that would be good. could _ questioning, that would be good. could i_ questioning, that would be good. could ijust — questioning, that would be good. could ijust start _ questioning, that would be good. could ijust start with _ questioning, that would be good. could ijust start with the - questioning, that would be good. could ijust start with the first. could ijust start with the first question _ could ijust start with the first question, which— could ijust start with the first question, which is— could ijust start with the first question, which is did - could ijust start with the first question, which is did the - question, which is did the metropolitan— question, which is did the metropolitan police - question, which is did the metropolitan police feel. question, which is did the - metropolitan police feel under political — metropolitan police feel under political pressure _ metropolitan police feel under political pressure to _ metropolitan police feel under political pressure to police - metropolitan police feel under political pressure to police the coronation _ political pressure to police the coronation in _ political pressure to police the coronation in a _ political pressure to police the coronation in a certain - political pressure to police the coronation in a certain way? . political pressure to police the . coronation in a certain way? no. political pressure to police the - coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? — coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? i — coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? i think— coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? i think as _ coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? i think as is _ coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? i think as is the _ coronation in a certain way? no. no, not at all? i think as is the case - not at all? i think as is the case with any policing _ not at all? i think as is the case with any policing operation, - not at all? i think as is the case with any policing operation, the first thing to say is we would rigorously regard our independent operational powers and to be police without fear or favour and that has a ways been the case. what is clear in the case of protest are there are strongly held and differing views. in public, on social media and across politics, as to what is right and what isn't right. so our objective is very much to police the laws as they are set without fear or favour. i was grateful to you at the start for highlighting just how enormous the operation was. the coronation of his majesty king charles and queen camilla was a historic moment of huge national significance and we are proud to have successfully ensured it was delivered safely and in a secure way, despite their most challenging, fast moving and complex police picture we have ever encountered for a national celebration.— a national celebration. thank you. can i ask a national celebration. thank you. can i ask you _ a national celebration. thank you. can i ask you then, _ a national celebration. thank you. can i ask you then, were - a national celebration. thank you. can i ask you then, were you - can i ask you then, were you surprised _ can i ask you then, were you surprised the _ can i ask you then, were you surprised the home - can i ask you then, were you surprised the home office i can i ask you then, were you - surprised the home office police powers— surprised the home office police powers unit _ surprised the home office police powers unit wrote _ surprised the home office police powers unit wrote to _ surprised the home office police i powers unit wrote to organisations like republic— powers unit wrote to organisations like republic on— powers unit wrote to organisations like republic on the _ powers unit wrote to organisations like republic on the 27th _ powers unit wrote to organisations like republic on the 27th of- powers unit wrote to organisations like republic on the 27th of april, i like republic on the 27th of april, settinq _ like republic on the 27th of april, setting out— like republic on the 27th of april, setting out the _ like republic on the 27th of april, setting out the new _ like republic on the 27th of april, setting out the new provisions i setting out the new provisions within— setting out the new provisions within the _ setting out the new provisions within the public _ setting out the new provisions within the public order- setting out the new provisions within the public order act - setting out the new provisions . within the public order act which were _ within the public order act which were due — within the public order act which were due to— within the public order act which were due to come _ within the public order act which were due to come into - within the public order act which were due to come into force. . within the public order act which i were due to come into force. were you surprised _ were due to come into force. were you surprised by— were due to come into force. were you surprised by that? _ were due to come into force. were you surprised by that? that- were due to come into force. were you surprised by that?— you surprised by that? that wasn't somethin: you surprised by that? that wasn't something i— you surprised by that? that wasn't something i was _ you surprised by that? that wasn't something i was familiar _ you surprised by that? that wasn't something i was familiar with - you surprised by that? that wasn't something i was familiar with at i you surprised by that? that wasn't. something i was familiar with at the time but i think chris might have some knowledge of the letter. i don't think it is completely unusual. ., , don't think it is completely unusual-— don't think it is completely unusual. . , . , , , ., unusual. has it happened before other cases? _ unusual. has it happened before other cases? we _ unusual. has it happened before other cases? we were _ unusual. has it happened before other cases? we were not - unusual. has it happened before other cases? we were not aware unusual. has it happened before i other cases? we were not aware of unusual. has it happened before - other cases? we were not aware of it from a policing _ other cases? we were not aware of it from a policing point _ other cases? we were not aware of it from a policing point of _ other cases? we were not aware of it from a policing point of view. - other cases? we were not aware of it from a policing point of view. so - from a policing point of view. so the detail— from a policing point of view. so the detail and motive is one for the home _ the detail and motive is one for the home office and home office officials. the pc act because of the time between boilesen and commencement. my understanding is letters— commencement. my understanding is letters were sent out previously for that previous piece of legislation. on that— that previous piece of legislation. on that piece of legislation, they were _ on that piece of legislation, they were sent — on that piece of legislation, they were sent out _ on that piece of legislation, they were sent out previously? - on that piece of legislation, they were sent out previously? on - on that piece of legislation, they were sent out previously? on the pc se act there — were sent out previously? on the pc se act there as _ were sent out previously? on the pc se act there as may _ were sent out previously? on the pc se act there as may between - were sent out previously? on the pc se act there as may between royal i se act there as may between royal assent— se act there as may between royal assent and commencement, i believe letters— assent and commencement, i believe letters were sent out because of the compressed timescale. i think that has been _ compressed timescale. i think that has been replicated on this occasion for the _ has been replicated on this occasion for the public order act.— for the public order act. there was a view those _ for the public order act. there was a view those letters _ for the public order act. there was a view those letters could - for the public order act. there was a view those letters could be - for the public order act. there was a view those letters could be seen | a view those letters could be seen as intimidator— a view those letters could be seen as intimidator e. _ a view those letters could be seen as intimidator e. i— a view those letters could be seen as intimidator e.— as intimidator e. i am not familiar with the letters _ as intimidator e. i am not familiar with the letters and _ as intimidator e. i am not familiar with the letters and i _ as intimidator e. i am not familiar with the letters and i think- as intimidator e. i am not familiar with the letters and i think that i as intimidator e. i am not familiar with the letters and i think that is | with the letters and i think that is something that would have to be addressed to the home office. ianthem something that would have to be addressed to the home office. when i asked the minister— addressed to the home office. when i asked the minister he _ addressed to the home office. when i asked the minister he said _ addressed to the home office. when i asked the minister he said he - addressed to the home office. when i asked the minister he said he had - asked the minister he said he had not signed — asked the minister he said he had not signed the _ asked the minister he said he had not signed the letter— asked the minister he said he had not signed the letter i _ asked the minister he said he had not signed the letter i didn't- not signed the letter i didn't seem to know— not signed the letter i didn't seem to know very— not signed the letter i didn't seem to know very much _ not signed the letter i didn't seem to know very much about - not signed the letter i didn't seem to know very much about it - not signed the letter i didn't seem j to know very much about it either. on that— to know very much about it either. on that point, _ to know very much about it either. on that point, i— to know very much about it either. on that point, i can't— to know very much about it either. on that point, i can't help - to know very much about it either. on that point, ican't help any- on that point, i can't help any further, i'm afraid. just quickly, can i ask further, i'm afraid. just quickly, can i ask you. — further, i'm afraid. just quickly, can i ask you, assistant - can i ask you, assistant commissioner, why do you think it was reported in the newspapers that a senior source from the met said pressure had come from above? so pressure had come from above? sr honestly, i have no idea, in that i can't comment on anonymous sources that were reported in the newspapers without any detail. from my point of view, ifelt under without any detail. from my point of view, i felt under no without any detail. from my point of view, ifelt under no pressure politically. ifelt view, ifelt under no pressure politically. i felt pressure to deliver a safe and secure operation, but that was because of the fact it was a once—in—a—lifetime event for so many people and there would be hundreds of thousands of people in london to celebrate it and also and importantly, this was the biggest protection operation we have ever run. there were 312 protected people that we managed to get in and out of the abbey and across the footprint in about 90 minutes. so the stakes were enormously high. so i absolutely felt pressure but it wasn't political pressure but the pressure to do a good job. did wasn't political pressure but the pressure to do a good job. pressure to do a good 'ob. did you also take into h pressure to do a good 'ob. did you also take into account_ pressure to do a good job. did you also take into account the - pressure to do a good job. did you also take into account the fact - pressure to do a good job. did you| also take into account the fact that the police have a duty under section six of the human rights act to facilitate protest? edit six of the human rights act to facilitate protest?— six of the human rights act to facilitate protest? of course. and i have seen reporting _ facilitate protest? of course. and i have seen reporting which - facilitate protest? of course. and i have seen reporting which is - have seen reporting which is completely erroneous and false that suggests that all protest was prohibited or banned or somehow restrained. that was not the case. we are very familiar with our duties around dealing with protest, both positive duties under the human rights act and negative duties. and balancing the rights of people who wish to protest with those impacted by the process is part of the day to dayjob of policing in london. i think it's fair to say that just dayjob of policing in london. i think it's fair to say thatjust in the last 12 months, we have dealt with something like 4000 events, 500 of them protest specific and even, its a point worth noting as well, it's a point worth noting as well, since the legislation we are talking about was enacted and royal assent was given, there has been 67 protest events in london. the only time the new legislation has been used with the one—off occasion we are talking about here today. you the one-off occasion we are talking about here today.— about here today. you talked there about here today. you talked there about balance, _ about here today. you talked there about balance, getting _ about here today. you talked there about balance, getting the - about here today. you talked there about balance, getting the balance i about balance, getting the balance right. you will be aware that the european convention on human rights provides that protest can be limited in order to protect the rights of others but any restriction of that right is only lawful if it is both proportional and necessary under article ten and 11. so do you accept that when it comes to the balance, the scales are actually weighed in favour of protecting the right to protest rather than equally balanced? that was the conclusion of my committee when we looked at part three of the police, crime, sentencing and courts bill, which was the cursor of the act. edit was the cursor of the act. of course. _ was the cursor of the act. of course. we _ was the cursor of the act. of course, we are really familiar with it. part of the complexity of this area of law is that there were a number of both primary and secondary legal instruments at play. there is the human rights act and then there is case law. all of the time, there'll law was being interpreted by the courts and most recently in the case, the supreme court case, which set out the conditions that we might need to consider as part of this. but you're absolutely right, of course. articles nine, ten and 11 of course. articles nine, ten and 11 of the european convention do form a basis of an individual�*s right to participate in peaceful protest and we respect that. but as you said and i agree with, this is a qualified right and we are continuing balancing the rights of those who seek to protest with those who are impacted by it. what we have seen latterly is where there is a sort of fine line between what is peaceful protest and then what is straying into illegal activity, as we have seenin into illegal activity, as we have seen in the latter part of last year and the start of this year and the shifting of those scales sort of takes place, where the crime is committed, we need to intervene much more quickly. flan committed, we need to intervene much more quickly-— more quickly. can i put it to you that the language _ more quickly. can i put it to you that the language of _ more quickly. can i put it to you that the language of balancing, | more quickly. can i put it to you - that the language of balancing, used frequently by police officers and policing bodies is not always helpful, because if you view protest as inherently problematic and inconvenient, rather than as a necessary and important element of a free society, balance will almost always fall on the side of maintaining order and preventing crime? whereas the starting position should always be that peaceful protest should not be restricted and should be facilitated as far as possible? i should be facilitated as far as ossible? ., should be facilitated as far as ossible? . ., ., possible? i agree with that and the evidence i believe _ possible? i agree with that and the evidence i believe would _ possible? i agree with that and the evidence i believe would show- possible? i agree with that and the evidence i believe would show that i evidence i believe would show that thatis evidence i believe would show that that is what we do. getting the balance right between the qualified rights protesters and the impact is difficult and protest is by its nature designed to get attention, we understand that. but i'm very clear that there was a strong presumption in favour of the right to protest and that is important in a democratic society. but where that strays into crime, then obviously the police will deal with the laws as we find them. but this is something we are very familiar with and we understand the human rights position. d0 and we understand the human rights osition. ,, and we understand the human rights osition. i. ., ., ., position. do you want to add an hinu position. do you want to add anything to _ position. do you want to add anything to that? _ position. do you want to add anything to that? just - position. do you want to add anything to that? just a - position. do you want to add i anything to that? just a couple position. do you want to add - anything to that? just a couple of oints. i anything to that? just a couple of points. i think— anything to that? just a couple of points. i think there _ anything to that? just a couple of points. i think there might - anything to that? just a couple of points. i think there might be - anything to that? just a couple of i points. i think there might be some debates— points. i think there might be some debates around articles nine, ten and ii _ debates around articles nine, ten and ii and — debates around articles nine, ten and ii and articles two and three are pretty— and ii and articles two and three are pretty fundamental, so very often _ are pretty fundamental, so very often in — are pretty fundamental, so very often in a — are pretty fundamental, so very often in a public order event, there can be _ often in a public order event, there can be are — often in a public order event, there can be are matters of public safety which _ can be are matters of public safety which need — can be are matters of public safety which need to be effectively dealt with _ which need to be effectively dealt with to— which need to be effectively dealt with. to support matt, policing is not anti—protest. we have positive and negative obligations under human rights _ and negative obligations under human rights legislation. my it is a good thing _ rights legislation. my it is a good thing for— rights legislation. my it is a good thing for society in terms of being able to— thing for society in terms of being able to protest in a peaceful but also a _ able to protest in a peaceful but also a reasonable way. i think a lot of the _ also a reasonable way. i think a lot of the things we will probably discuss — of the things we will probably discuss today or have debates about our where _ discuss today or have debates about our where that tipping point is reached, _ our where that tipping point is reached, whether we like to call it a balance — reached, whether we like to call it a balance or not, because that is the language of the courts. where that tipping point is reached, in terms _ that tipping point is reached, in terms of— that tipping point is reached, in terms of when it becomes unreasonable and then policing without — unreasonable and then policing without any great desire to do so has to— without any great desire to do so has to intervene and ultimately allocate — has to intervene and ultimately allocate resource that they would much _ allocate resource that they would much rather allocate in other parts of the _ much rather allocate in other parts of the policing environment. so there _ of the policing environment. so there is— of the policing environment. so there is no— of the policing environment. so there is no presumption against protest. — there is no presumption against protest, it's quite the opposite. can you — protest, it's quite the opposite. can you tell us, do all police officers receive ongoing training on their human rights obligations? in terms of the sort of training environment for policing, there is an initial— environment for policing, there is an initial input and training in terms — an initial input and training in terms of— an initial input and training in terms of human rights obligations. there _ terms of human rights obligations. there is— terms of human rights obligations. there is a — terms of human rights obligations. there is a model around decision—making and national decision—making, which has key test around _ decision—making, which has key test around human rights obligations. that will— around human rights obligations. that will be reinforced in an ongoing _ that will be reinforced in an ongoing basis when new legislation is introduced. when we move into public— is introduced. when we move into public order— is introduced. when we move into public order and public safety, there — public order and public safety, there are _ public order and public safety, there are causes that are strict to attend _ there are causes that are strict to attend. there is coordination, there are regular— attend. there is coordination, there are regular cpd for more junior and specialist _ are regular cpd for more junior and specialist commanders and then there will be _ specialist commanders and then there will be access both pre—, during and post event— will be access both pre—, during and post event to specialist subjects around — post event to specialist subjects around that to test the police operation. and clearly and appropriately, the sufficient scrutiny, whether from committees like this, _ scrutiny, whether from committees like this, police and crime commissioners, iop opc and other bodies _ commissioners, iop opc and other bodies with— commissioners, iop opc and other bodies with an interest in protest as welt — as well. chief constable, ijust as wet. — chief constable, ijust wonder if you could take us through how police forces across the country prepare when a new act like the public order act is brought in. in when a new act like the public order act is brought in.— act is brought in. in terms of the preparation _ act is brought in. in terms of the preparation for _ act is brought in. in terms of the preparation for that _ act is brought in. in terms of the preparation for that new - act is brought in. in terms of the i preparation for that new legislation landing ~~ — preparation for that new legislation landing... it can be challenging. we have had _ landing... it can be challenging. we have had moving parts recently in terms _ have had moving parts recently in terms of— have had moving parts recently in terms of legislation but to be very transparent, from a policing point of view_ transparent, from a policing point of view our— transparent, from a policing point of view our ask from the home office was give _ of view our ask from the home office was give us _ of view our ask from the home office was give us current legislation, legislation which is fit for the challenges we are facing today and that is— challenges we are facing today and that is capable of being enforced. so a significant amount of the changes— so a significant amount of the changes in legislation, policing doesn't — changes in legislation, policing doesn't set the law. it is clear where — doesn't set the law. it is clear where they have identified some gaps or challenges but ultimately the making — or challenges but ultimately the making of the law is a matter for parliament, as is the timing of that law actually commencing. so on this occasion _ law actually commencing. so on this occasion i_ law actually commencing. so on this occasion, i think royal assent was granted _ occasion, i think royal assent was granted on — occasion, i think royal assent was granted on the 2nd of may at about 2pm in— granted on the 2nd of may at about 2pm in the — granted on the 2nd of may at about 2pm in the afternoon and commenced at midnight _ 2pm in the afternoon and commenced at midnight technically on the 3rd of may— at midnight technically on the 3rd of may and within ten hours we had briefing _ of may and within ten hours we had briefing documents across the country — briefing documents across the country to chief constables, to our gold commanders, which are the most senior— gold commanders, which are the most senior public— gold commanders, which are the most senior public order commanders, and it was— senior public order commanders, and it was cascaded down as well. matt might— it was cascaded down as well. matt might want to talk about how that happened in london but putting that information in officers' hands. we couldn't— information in officers' hands. we couldn't pre—empt what would come out of— couldn't pre—empt what would come out of the _ couldn't pre—empt what would come out of the legislation is that we were _ out of the legislation is that we were not— out of the legislation is that we were not going to do anybody's job for them — were not going to do anybody's job for them. we didn't want to put a version _ for them. we didn't want to put a version out — for them. we didn't want to put a version out in advance which would have _ version out in advance which would have to _ version out in advance which would have to be — version out in advance which would have to be amended. whilst timing was compressed, we had discussions in advance _ was compressed, we had discussions in advance about how to do that and getting _ in advance about how to do that and getting the — in advance about how to do that and getting the information into the hands _ getting the information into the hands of— getting the information into the hands of people who needed it. from a london perspective _ hands of people who needed it. from a london perspective of _ hands of people who needed it. fr'rrrn a london perspective of course we got the correspondence from the couege got the correspondence from the college guidance at got the correspondence from the college guidance— got the correspondence from the college guidance at the time shine. this was circulated _ college guidance at the time shine. this was circulated to _ college guidance at the time shine. this was circulated to all _ college guidance at the time shine. this was circulated to all public - this was circulated to all public order commanders within the met, at all levels, as well as the public training staff and tactical advisors on the same day. there was a specific briefing by the silver commander in one of our most experienced officers who trains public order officers for the command team, who took place in operation golden orb. then there were constraints on the use of that legislation that it would only be usedif legislation that it would only be used if they were notified and consulted in advance. so whilst it was short notice between the operation and the timing of it is a matterfor parliament, operation and the timing of it is a matter for parliament, we operation and the timing of it is a matterfor parliament, we believe operation and the timing of it is a matter for parliament, we believe we were in good shape in terms of the briefing and officers knew what they had to do. ., ~ briefing and officers knew what they had to do. ., ,, i. briefing and officers knew what they had to do. ., ,, had to do. thank you. so in the case of golden orb. _ had to do. thank you. so in the case of golden orb, we _ had to do. thank you. so in the case of golden orb, we know _ had to do. thank you. so in the case of golden orb, we know and - had to do. thank you. so in the case of golden orb, we know and we'll. had to do. thank you. so in the case j of golden orb, we know and we'll be hearing from some of the other witnesses later on this, but you had beenin witnesses later on this, but you had been in communication with some of the protest groups who were planning to attend. obviously this is something new for you to understand how to implement this legislation, how to implement this legislation, how to implement this legislation, how to use it appropriately. it's also something new for them. could you take us through some of the detail in those communications and in that dialogue. what would that look like, if they have questions, do they come back to you question what do you just point them at the bill? i what do you 'ust point them at the bill? ~' what do you 'ust point them at the bill? ~ , ., ., what do you 'ust point them at the bill? ~ , , , bill? i think in the broader sense, it alwa s bill? i think in the broader sense, it always works _ bill? i think in the broader sense, it always works best _ bill? i think in the broader sense, it always works best when - bill? i think in the broader sense, it always works best when groups| it always works best when groups that are looking to protest engage with the police and this is something that's been going on now for many years, where we have a protest liaison team, where people that want to conduct large protests make contact with that team. that is not for us to constrain what they want to do but we can provide advice, we can be clear on what responsibilities the organisers might have. this is a tried and tested process for many, many protest groups that will engage with our gateway team, who will then get notified about what they want to do and what that helps with it it helps us provide a proportionate policing response, which at times may be nothing at all. depending on what the matters are at hand. there are some groups who don't engage at all, which makes things much more challenging, both in resourcing terms and in terms of what their intentions are and where they might go. so groups likejust intentions are and where they might go. so groups like just stopped intentions are and where they might go. so groups likejust stopped oil do not engage, despite repeated attempts by us to do so. so it leads to greater abstractions from local police and, frankly, as we have to continually manage an unknown sort of risk. in terms of this case, if we are talking about the republic protest, not making, they did engage with the liaison team in advance via multiple means, in terms of letters earlier in the year and then there was further correspondence in the run—up. i don't know whether there were specific engagement on the point of the new legislation. i suppose that is what i am trying to get to. the nub of this and some of my colleagues will pick up on this later, there were straps used to hold placards together which were interpreted as potentially being potentially used for devices for locking on. i'm just trying to understand whether there would be a dialogue around that sort of granularity around whether a strap in the back of than might be considered as something that would be of concern to you or if it is just pointing towards legislation and saying you need to understand this yourselves. i and saying you need to understand this yourselves.— this yourselves. i think our view, our start point — this yourselves. i think our view, our start point was _ this yourselves. i think our view, our start point was always - this yourselves. i think our view, our start point was always to - this yourselves. i think our view, our start point was always to try | our start point was always to try and be as helpful as we could be. i don't know whether or not a discussion was had about any such straps in advance of the coronation. i've seen various descriptions of what those straps are but we can touch on that if needed. i don't know if that actual discussion was had in advance.— had in advance. thank you, thank ou, had in advance. thank you, thank you. chair- _ had in advance. thank you, thank you, chair. moving _ had in advance. thank you, thank you, chair. moving on _ had in advance. thank you, thank you, chair. moving on now. - had in advance. thank you, thank you, chair. moving on now. i- had in advance. thank you, thank| you, chair. moving on now. iwant had in advance. thank you, thank i you, chair. moving on now. i want to ick u- you, chair. moving on now. i want to pick up on — you, chair. moving on now. i want to pick up on the _ you, chair. moving on now. i want to pick up on the kind _ you, chair. moving on now. i want to pick up on the kind of— you, chair. moving on now. i want to pick up on the kind of objects - you, chair. moving on now. i want to pick up on the kind of objects that i pick up on the kind of objects that would be covered by the new offence of being equipped to lock on, what is your understanding of that? i think it is contextual. i think in terms of, we need to look at... you need to look at what the person's intent might be. you need to look at what the object is and then meet that with an intent or a likelihood of doing it, because clearly something like a d lock could be used to lock on. it something like a d lock could be used to lock on.— used to lock on. it could also be used to lock on. it could also be used to lock on. it could also be used to secure _ used to lock on. it could also be used to secure your _ used to lock on. it could also be used to secure your bicycle. - used to secure your bicycle. exactly, that's the point i was making. wearing a just stop oil t—shirt and cycling along the wire road, how would you interpret it? a seemingly innocent item code in the right context be something that would be considered to be going equipped for locking on. what we would do is base it on intelligence. we would base it on actions. we would base this on the group and clearly at the time, what we were talking about if we take this back to golden orb is a situation where we had very clear evidence that was deeply concerning, sufficiently so that we ended up briefing the home secretary and the mare late at night on the friday and senior stakeholders on friday and early on the saturday that there was a concerted attempt, there was going to be a concerted attempt to disrupt the coronation procession and that officers were asked to be extremely vigilant and extremely proactive in dealing with theirs. so in the wider threat context, that would have played into some of the decision making, i think. but there is no history of the public ever having locked on, yet members were arrested and presumably items that were securing the placards were taken by your officers? ~ ., �* ,, ., , officers? we don't know they were securin: officers? we don't know they were securing placards, _ officers? we don't know they were securing placards, that _ officers? we don't know they were securing placards, that was - officers? we don't know they were securing placards, that was what i officers? we don't know they were i securing placards, that was what was said. the items themselves were in clear plastic bags which were sealed, so they hadn't been used for that purpose so far as we could see in the van. officers have to make a difficultjudgment. at the time, in the moment, based on what they are faced with them based on the information they have. they have to form reasonable grounds for an arrest and as the committee will know, reasonable grounds is actually quite a low threshold and is much lower than actually where you would need grounds to meet the evidential test, to charge on a public order charge. what was found with 12 heavy duty material straps with combination locks on them, which officers were told were for securing placards but at the time the officers were operating in a threat environment where they believed, taking into account the time, location and proximity to the root and what they had in front of them, those officers believed those could be items that could be used for locking on and that was why the arrest was made. if you look more widely at such an item as a luggage strap, there must be thousands of people that go through central london every day with a luggage strap. how reasonable is it to assume that kind of thing is it to assume that kind of thing is a threat? i is it to assume that kind of thing is a threat?— is a threat? i think it takes it straiaht is a threat? i think it takes it straight back _ is a threat? i think it takes it straight back to _ is a threat? i think it takes it straight back to the - is a threat? i think it takes it straight back to the context, i is a threat? i think it takes it i straight back to the context, in that it was both in terms of the intelligence that we had, the once—in—a—lifetime, once in a generation event, the proximity to the event itself and to where we thought the threat was likely to manifest itself and the time. there was not much time between these officers stopping the van and the actual ceremonial procession taking place. so you are quite right, these items on their own in heathrow airport are not going to be something that might cause concern. if someone was walking around with 12 of them, there might be some questions asked. but this is in something, you need more thanjust the item. i think the officers would need to show there is some sort of intent or intelligence that would lead us to believe in the context that these could be items that would be used for locking on. this vagueness _ be used for locking on. this vagueness is _ be used for locking on. this vagueness is in _ be used for locking on. this vagueness is in legislation now. going forward, away from something like the coronation, a one—off event, that can be used at any point in any time to question somebody�*s ability to have something like a d lock or luggage strap or a cable tie or anything of that kind, couldn't it? i or anything of that kind, couldn't it? 4' or anything of that kind, couldn't it? ~ , or anything of that kind, couldn't it? 4' , ., it? i think it is then for the officers to _ it? i think it is then for the officers to show _ it? i think it is then for the officers to show they - it? i think it is then for the officers to show they have | it? i think it is then for the - officers to show they have acted both proportionately and reasonably. it is then to show that if someone is arrested at the threshold of reasonable suspicion to then meet that evidential threshold is a completely different step. then if you get to that evidential threshold and the cps or the police believe there is sufficient to charge, then there is sufficient to charge, then the courts will interpret that and we'll look at the circumstances. at the moment, you are right, there is no case law on this but my point is officers still need to act proportionately and reasonably and that their actions need to be necessary in order of the circumstances. so i think that saturday we are talking about, whilst it was the first time this legislation was used, it also, i don't think legislation we will be seeing used day in and day out or week in and week out. on the basis of that, since it has been passed, there have been 68 other demonstrations that have taken place and we have not used this legislation on any of them. what does it mean _ legislation on any of them. what does it mean to _ legislation on any of them. what does it mean to attach _ legislation on any of them. what does it mean to attach for- legislation on any of them. what does it mean to attach for the purposes of locking on? locking on would be to secure yourself to something else, we have to take the ordinary extra definition.— definition. but to attach specifically? _ definition. but to attach specifically? i— definition. but to attach specifically? i don't - definition. but to attach | specifically? i don't have definition. but to attach - specifically? i don't have the definition. _ specifically? i don't have the definition. does _ specifically? i don't have the definition. does that - specifically? i don't have the definition. does that cover i specifically? i don't have the - definition. does that cover locking ourself to definition. does that cover locking yourself to somebody _ definition. does that cover locking yourself to somebody else? - definition. does that cover locking yourself to somebody else? my i definition. does that cover locking i yourself to somebody else? my view on this is i would _ yourself to somebody else? my view on this is i would sort _ yourself to somebody else? my view on this is i would sort of— yourself to somebody else? my view on this is i would sort of look- yourself to somebody else? my view on this is i would sort of look at - on this is i would sort of look at the common—sense definition, in terms of what securing yourself to someone else... there may be a national approach on this. the someone else. .. there may be a national approach on this.- national approach on this. the i would give _ national approach on this. the i would give as — national approach on this. the i would give as it _ national approach on this. the i would give as it is _ national approach on this. the i would give as it is the - national approach on this. the i would give as it is the one - national approach on this. the i would give as it is the one i - national approach on this. the i would give as it is the one i shared with the _ would give as it is the one i shared with the bill— would give as it is the one i shared with the bill scrutiny committee is that the _ with the bill scrutiny committee is that the g7 event there is a scenario— that the g7 event there is a scenario policing encountered, they had information, individuals would be coming — had information, individuals would be coming down to create divide and a lock— be coming down to create divide and a lock on— be coming down to create divide and a lock on anti—protest and at one point _ a lock on anti—protest and at one point they— a lock on anti—protest and at one point they were in the road in various— point they were in the road in various bamboo poles and things were discovered, _ various bamboo poles and things were discovered, policing essentially had to let _ discovered, policing essentially had to let that _ discovered, policing essentially had to let that run until eventually became — to let that run until eventually became a _ to let that run until eventually became a substantive offence and they had — became a substantive offence and they had intervene and ultimately impacted — they had intervene and ultimately impacted much more on the rights of other— impacted much more on the rights of other people as well. from an operational perspective, even though this may— operational perspective, even though this may be very rarely used and there _ this may be very rarely used and there is— this may be very rarely used and there is a — this may be very rarely used and there is a degree of breath and the framing _ there is a degree of breath and the framing of— there is a degree of breath and the framing of it, absolutely, you can have _ framing of it, absolutely, you can have over — framing of it, absolutely, you can have over somebody sitting down and potentially _ have over somebody sitting down and potentially committing an offence, but people walking towards them with bicycle _ but people walking towards them with bicycle locks, that were not clear what _ bicycle locks, that were not clear what exactly what was going on, and police _ what exactly what was going on, and police may— what exactly what was going on, and police may not have the ability to intervene. — police may not have the ability to intervene, so there are challenges around _ intervene, so there are challenges around interpretation, the concern about— around interpretation, the concern about is— around interpretation, the concern about is this too broadly framed? the imaginations of protest groups are very— the imaginations of protest groups are very broadly framed and if the law is— are very broadly framed and if the law is too— are very broadly framed and if the law is too narrow, that is much more easily— law is too narrow, that is much more easily circumvented for individuals looking _ easily circumvented for individuals looking to — easily circumvented for individuals looking to be unreasonable in the protest _ looking to be unreasonable in the protest and cause serious disruption, but it has to be handled carefully _ disruption, but it has to be handled carefully i— disruption, but it has to be handled carefull . , ., disruption, but it has to be handled carefull . , . ., carefully. i understand the maximum enal for carefully. i understand the maximum penalty for looking _ carefully. i understand the maximum penalty for looking on _ carefully. i understand the maximum penalty for looking on is _ carefully. i understand the maximum penalty for looking on is a _ carefully. i understand the maximum penalty for looking on is a fine. - penalty for looking on is a fine. it's detaining people appropriate? that is a matter for parliament, in terms of where the powers of arrest are drawn, and a matterfor the courts. this offence may not sit in isolation as well because where we have seen is as chris has alluded to the may well be other offences that come into play in those circumstances, potentially causing a statutory public nuisance under section 78, so this is a preventative measure, were at the moment, as chris has alluded to, there was not the power to stop people who we had intelligence were going to lock on until they did so in that then led to a much greater destruction of other people's rights because it takes a long time to remove someone who is locked on. so this enables us to have that proactive power to prevent that in the right circumstances. flan proactive power to prevent that in the right circumstances. can i proactive power to prevent that in the right circumstances.— proactive power to prevent that in the right circumstances. can i ask a cuestion? the right circumstances. can i ask a question? i— the right circumstances. can i ask a question? i think _ the right circumstances. can i ask a question? i think earlier _ the right circumstances. can i ask a question? i think earlier on - the right circumstances. can i ask a question? i think earlier on the - question? i think earlier on the assistant commissioner said in certain circumstances there had to be a referral to bronze command, in terms of the public order, if there is going to be use of that. did that happen in this particular case, then? can you assured us bronze command were told these people were going to be detained? this command were told these people were going to be detained?— going to be detained? this is not oli , going to be detained? this is not policy. this _ going to be detained? this is not policy. this is _ going to be detained? this is not policy, this is something - going to be detained? this is not policy, this is something that - going to be detained? this is not policy, this is something that we | policy, this is something that we did given the short notice, we were not sure every inspector and surgeon would have fully understood it, it was a constraint we put on for this one operation. in terms of the specific question, yes, the bronze command for the sector was notified of the arrests under this. bid command for the sector was notified of the arrests under this.— of the arrests under this. did that bronze command _ of the arrests under this. did that bronze command to _ of the arrests under this. did that bronze command to have - of the arrests under this. did that bronze command to have the - bronze command to have the information about the engagement with republic? did they know what had been agreed and what was said? i don't know of the top of my head, my expectation would be yes, the whole command team would have been alert to engagement that had been taking place with the public because we would have been notified of that process, so we would have been expecting it, buti process, so we would have been expecting it, but i don't know what was in her mind at the time. you don't know— was in her mind at the time. you don't know what _ was in her mind at the time. you don't know what was _ was in her mind at the time. you don't know what was in their mind? was in her mind at the time. you - don't know what was in their mind? i camp myself... whilst my expectation was the bronze was aware... i’m was the bronze was aware... i'm surprised — was the bronze was aware... i'm surprised that _ was the bronze was aware... i'm surprised that today you have come today to explain what's happening but you don't seem to know who knew what. ok. assistant commissioner, you said that the placards that were from the republic group, which were component parts or whatever, there were luggage straps with combination locks with them. a nude experience, have you seen other placards that have you seen other placards that have been attached using luggage straps with combination locks? ih have been attached using luggage straps with combination locks? in w; straps with combination locks? in my exnerience. — straps with combination locks? in my exnerience. no. _ straps with combination locks? in my experience, no, but— straps with combination locks? in my experience, no, but it _ straps with combination locks? in my experience, no, but it does - straps with combination locks? in my experience, no, but it does not - straps with combination locks? i�*i �*hy experience, no, but it does not mean that has not happened.— experience, no, but it does not mean that has not happened. rate, but few would be unusual, _ that has not happened. rate, but few would be unusual, by— that has not happened. rate, but few would be unusual, by the _ that has not happened. rate, but few would be unusual, by the sounds- that has not happened. rate, but few would be unusual, by the sounds of. would be unusual, by the sounds of a? ., ., ., , , ., a? for me it would have been unusual because normally _ a? for me it would have been unusual because normally we _ a? for me it would have been unusual because normally we see _ a? for me it would have been unusual because normally we see the - a? for me it would have been unusual because normally we see the packers| because normally we see the packers are attached using cable ties or string or rope or something like that. these are heavy duty things, and the combination lock is part of them. it would have been unusual, which i think is why it would have aroused suspicion of the officers. usually use a combination lock to stop... usually use a combination lock to sto - . .. ~ ., usually use a combination lock to sto...~ . ., ., usually use a combination lock to sto... . ., ., ,, stop... we are here today to speak about democracy... _ stop... we are here today to speak about democracy... come - stop... we are here today to speak about democracy... come on, - stop... we are here today to speak. about democracy... come on, officer. we are not — about democracy... come on, officer. we are not having _ about democracy... come on, officer. we are not having this. _ about democracy... come on, officer. we are not having this. they - about democracy... come on, officer. we are not having this. they have - we are not having this. they have 'ust we are not having this. they have just blocked _ we are not having this. they have just blocked the _ we are not having this. they have just blocked the feed _ we are not having this. they have just blocked the feed for- we are not having this. they have just blocked the feed for the - just blocked the feed for the moment, but let's take a moment to recap on the newsroom about what has been said. they have focused a lot on this idea of locking on and the concerns of some day walking down the street with a dealer, but to get on the bike, the possibility of men facing arrest. —— with a d lock. tell us about the placards and devices they found with them. slightly inevitable that those just stop oil protest are sitting by the police officers during the committee were likely to disrupt the proceedings. they were sitting there in their t—shirts. the police were insisting there that they were not under any political pressure in the build—up to the coronation, but did feel under pressure because of the once—in—a—lifetime event nature of the event, and because of running the event, and because of running the biggest protection operational vips they had ever run, but the focus today a bit more on the detail of what those luggage straps were, described them as heavy duty straps with combination locks on, and... aye aye heater and structure, but they are resuming. it is unusual to use the in order to assemble a placard... fir it is unusual to use the in order to assemble a placard. . ._ it is unusual to use the in order to assemble a placard... or any other bits of wood- _ bits of wood. it seems a bit odd, does a non—? think that is how you could read that, and i suspect that was part... this was unusual.— this was unusual. back to the early conversation _ this was unusual. back to the early conversation about _ this was unusual. back to the early conversation about someone - this was unusual. back to the early| conversation about someone having this was unusual. back to the early i conversation about someone having a d lock, where defence would be cut if somebody is at a demonstration without their bicycle, presumably they would have left that the lock on the bicycle in order to secure it? so is unusual to be carrying a lock without the bicycle... ahead of the coronation, the met tweeted it is tolerance for any disruption, whether through protest or otherwise, it would be low, and it would deal robustly with anyone intent on undermining the celebration, so notwithstanding the fact this was the largest event properly ever comedy largest assembly of world leaders that was there, how did you approach the policing of this event differently to justify that statement and sort of warning, effectively? i to justify that statement and sort of warning, effectively?— of warning, effectively? ithink what's important _ of warning, effectively? ithink what's important is _ of warning, effectively? ithink what's important is the - of warning, effectively? i think i what's important is the difference between protest and disruption, and what we were talking about they are, we said our tolerance of disruption would be low, but to be clear, it was not zero, we did say we would have zero tolerance of any breaches of safety or security, and that was part of what was driven by the fact we had 312 protected people on the large security operation had ever run. what's clear is on the day some disruption did happen, in that the tens of thousands of people that came to watch the coronation and peacefully enjoy a once—in—a—lifetime event, there were large numbers of not miking and other protest groups that were there shouting, making a noise, —— large numbers of not my king. i thought officers struck the right balance, we were able to be in the crowd with very large signs and banners and peacefully coexist with the overwhelming majority of people who had come to enjoy the celebration. can you edge out that there was a big recognise, organise group of protesters in trafalgar square, i gather, and various other groups. roughly, where there are scattered in one place... where there are several groups that were recognised and it was all fine? how many protesters roughly where there? and where were they?— protesters roughly where there? and where were they? there were several hundred in and _ where were they? there were several hundred in and around _ where were they? there were several hundred in and around trafalgar - hundred in and around trafalgar square that were originally sort of near to the corner where the procession was going to turn, and at one point naming moved away and came back again. and this is where we found... there were other people protesting at various points in small numbers across the route and we move into those who were considering presenting a criminal threat to the procession, so in this case the just stop oil activists who we stopped both in whitehall and at the bottom of the duke of york steps were a large number of them are present and we had intelligence and we honestly believe those people were going to seek to disrupt the coronation procession. my thinking, that point, this was a conspiracy to commit public nuisance at the very least, so we dealt with those from the criminal ends, not protest lines. in the criminal ends, not protest lines. . the criminal ends, not protest lines. , ., , ., , , ., lines. in terms of protest is that reli . ious lines. in terms of protest is that religious and — lines. in terms of protest is that religious and any _ lines. in terms of protest is that religious and any group - lines. in terms of protest is that religious and any group in - lines. in terms of protest is that i religious and any group in trafalgar square, there is no problem, none of those were arrested? flat square, there is no problem, none of those were arrested?— those were arrested? not the ones that were there, _ those were arrested? not the ones that were there, as _ those were arrested? not the ones that were there, as far _ those were arrested? not the ones that were there, as far as - those were arrested? not the ones that were there, as far as i - those were arrested? not the ones that were there, as far as i am i that were there, as far as i am aware. , . that were there, as far as i am aware. , , ., .., that were there, as far as i am aware. , , ., _, .., that were there, as far as i am aware. , ., i. aware. just for context, can you tell us how — aware. just for context, can you tell us how many _ aware. just for context, can you tell us how many people - aware. just for context, can you tell us how many people were i aware. just for context, can you | tell us how many people were in central london that day, roughly, in terms of numbers? taylor hundreds of thousands. in terms of the footprint itself, the numbers were constrained just through the organisers maintaining public safety, but across the oh footprint there would have been hundreds of thousands of people in central london. the exact numbers i don't know. you've given us an idea of that, when you're replacing any number of people, or that size of population, then the safety and security of those people and everyone else in the area where they are is paramount. riff the area where they are is paramount-— the area where they are is| paramount._ and the area where they are is i paramount._ and it the area where they are is - paramount._ and it does paramount. of course. and it does not matter — paramount. of course. and it does not matter what _ paramount. of course. and it does not matter what your _ paramount. of course. and it does not matter what your background i paramount. of course. and it does | not matter what your background is what you're doing, you don't differentiate on that, the safety and security of people is what is the core of the policing. i and security of people is what is the core of the policing.- the core of the policing. i think this touches _ the core of the policing. i think this touches on _ the core of the policing. i think this touches on human - the core of the policing. i think this touches on human rights i the core of the policing. i think i this touches on human rights point that chris highlighted earlier, there is a hierarchy in terms of her duties and right to life, which is more important than some of the other rights, so because public safety and also the security of those people we are protecting is critical. ., ., . ., critical. you gave evidence to say that the home _ critical. you gave evidence to say that the home secretary - critical. you gave evidence to say that the home secretary and i critical. you gave evidence to say i that the home secretary and london mayor were briefed. give us an idea of what intelligence was that you passed on to them.— of what intelligence was that you passed on to them. clearly, clearly i can't no passed on to them. clearly, clearly i can't go into _ passed on to them. clearly, clearly i can't go into the _ passed on to them. clearly, clearly i can't go into the details _ passed on to them. clearly, clearly i can't go into the details of- i can't go into the details of intelligence for what i can say is that during the course of friday fifth and into the saturday on the evening of the friday i was significant, concerned enough that the home secretary was briefed late in the evening, as was the london mayor, on the growing intelligence picture, and subsequent ministerial briefings happened in the morning. we were absolutely concerned that there were people who overnight were seeking to deface and spray historic monuments. we were concerned there were people who are going to inquire onto the route, we were concerned there were people who are seeking to disrupt the coronation through loud noise, the use of rape alarms has been previously mentioned, and the intelligence that we had was real and a threat that we had that we believed at that time was sufficiently serious that we need to prove those key sort of ministers. tells the relationship when we started speaking we talked about pride of duty, for the safety of both people, and in the circumstance, horses and other animals that were part of the coronation. could you tell us the link, please, between intelligence and that duty to protect people that were there in central london that they? riff were there in central london that the ? , . , , they? of course. we were deeply concerned _ they? of course. we were deeply concerned in _ they? of course. we were deeply concerned in the _ they? of course. we were deeply concerned in the event _ they? of course. we were deeply concerned in the event of - they? of course. we were deeply concerned in the event of people | concerned in the event of people encoding onto the and members may have seen the conditions for the horses were tricky enough as it was with the rain and everything else, there was a very real risk that had people incurred onto the roof had been played sort of sudden loud amplified music, that could have literally scare the horses, which could have led to significant safety risk and potentially serious injury. on the day, how many people were arrested in total for activity related to the coronation? ih arrested in total for activity related to the coronation? in total, 52 out of 64 — related to the coronation? in total, 52 out of 64 arrests _ related to the coronation? in total, 52 out of 64 arrests and _ related to the coronation? in total, 52 out of 64 arrests and some i related to the coronation? in total, 52 out of 64 arrests and some of. 52 out of 64 arrests and some of them were sort of not link, they were picked up on on the footprint, having been wanted for other matters, as an example. in terms of... we matters, as an example. in terms of. -- we are — matters, as an example. in terms of... we are going _ matters, as an example. in terms of... we are going to _ matters, as an example. in terms of... we are going to hear - matters, as an example. in terms of... we are going to hear from i matters, as an example. in terms i of... we are going to hear from the of... we are going to hearfrom the representative of the public. it appears from the briefing that i've seen from some shall we say, the met statement on this, that the position that the might take is that the arrest of the six people was lawful. though i understand that correctly? there may be challenging for civil proceedings later all sorts of means. in terms of the position of the met, was it that those arrests were lawful? �*i�*es. that those arrests were lawful? yes. i'm not that those arrests were lawful? yes. i'm not asking _ that those arrests were lawful? yes. i'm not asking you — that those arrests were lawful? yes. i'm not asking you to _ that those arrests were lawful? fies i'm not asking you to repeat but that those arrests were lawful? .23 i'm not asking you to repeat but can you say why the met thought they were lawful. that you say why the met thought they were lawful-— you say why the met thought they were lawful. . ., ., .,, were lawful. at that moment those officers form _ were lawful. at that moment those officers form regional— were lawful. at that moment those officers form regional grounds i were lawful. at that moment those officers form regional grounds to i officers form regional grounds to believe people they had detained for committing the offence. and it's for those officers and the state taking into account the overall intelligence picture, the briefings they had, to justify why there is reasonable grounds formed, but from what i've seen, my belief and we've touched on the difference between reasonable grounds to suspect on the evidential threshold needed to charge, and to prove, but i believe they are lawful. charge, and to prove, but i believe they are lawful-— they are lawful. perhaps if you could... the _ they are lawful. perhaps if you could... the point _ they are lawful. perhaps if you could... the point has - they are lawful. perhaps if you could... the point has been i they are lawful. perhaps if you i could... the point has been made to you, i think, could... the point has been made to you, ithink, why could... the point has been made to you, i think, why should people who he put into custody if they're being arrested for an offence that there is not a custodial offence at the end of actress—mack perhaps you can confront us, there are many offences are occasions where people are arrested where they will not receive arrested where they will not receive a custodial sentence, but are taken into a custodial environment to allow for the circumstances. that's correct. i have _ allow for the circumstances. that's correct. i have some _ allow for the circumstances. that's correct. i have some more - allow for the circumstances. that's correct. i have some more detail i allow for the circumstances. that's | correct. i have some more detail on the arrest that may help the committee. i mention 64 in total across the weekend, 52 were linked to activist for potential direct action protest in these included proactive arrest to breach the police and public nuisance. we found a group of people and position of white paint and plastic bottles waiting high vis jackets that could have easily been construed as stewarding jackets but had animal writing logo on the sleeves. these were arrested for going equipped to cause criminal damage. and related tojust boil in cause criminal damage. and related to just boil in terms of attempting to just boil in terms of attempting to stop the procession. there is a result in 23 arrests. eight further arrests including possessing an offensive weapon, drugs, facial recognition deployment at locations led tattoo arrests, one suspect wanted for breaching the six—year—old friends prevention order, one going to steal. —— the sexual offences prevention order. for the people involved in that, if these arrests were lawful, if the behaviour from the police's perspective was absolutely correct, why apologise? i perspective was absolutely correct, why apologise?— why apologise? i think what we haven't said — why apologise? i think what we haven't said is, _ why apologise? i think what we haven't said is, an _ why apologise? i think what we haven't said is, an apology, i why apologise? i think what we i haven't said is, an apology, what i said was we regret that those that were detained and subsequently no further action was taken, we regret that they miss the opportunity to protest, a human thing to do. we don't want to get into the sort of dancing on, will you apologise, won't you? i believe the arrests were lawful but of course, once we conducted further investigation and inquiries, we find out more details of the engagements that have taken place and we pulled all the circumstances they together, its quite a human thing to do to do to say we regret they miss the opportunity to protest, but what was also very clear was many hundreds did not miss the opportunity and continued on that process, which is quite contrary to some of the reporting we've seen that all protest was banned, which clearly was not the case.— protest was banned, which clearly was not the case. overall it was an excellent day. _ was not the case. overall it was an excellent day, and _ was not the case. overall it was an excellent day, and the _ was not the case. overall it was an excellent day, and the police - was not the case. overall it was an excellent day, and the police did i was not the case. overall it was an excellent day, and the police did a| excellent day, and the police did a really good job, but this incident has probably been the big takeaway for a lot of people, and has marred what was otherwise an excellent day. what would you have done retrospectively, what could you have done differently to have stop this happening? done differently to have stop this ha enin: ? done differently to have stop this happening?— done differently to have stop this haulenin? ., ., , happening? soul, as always with any bi event, happening? soul, as always with any big event, there _ happening? soul, as always with any big event, there will _ happening? soul, as always with any big event, there will be _ happening? soul, as always with any big event, there will be a _ happening? soul, as always with any big event, there will be a debrief i big event, there will be a debrief that we always do and we all seek to improve. my initial takeaway from this would be had we been better able to connect, those officers that were making the arrests and sort of forming the reasonable grounds where the protest liaison teams that were also deployed elsewhere on the footprint, that may and i stress may have led to a different outcome, however, what is also very clear is that even if the protest liaison teams i confirmed there had been engagement with those individuals, that does not mean arrest is impossible because clearly people engage and do not tells the truth and clearly people engage with other nefarious motives in mind. to give you a sense of the scale, though, as to why that was typical and to why we were look into seeing how we can do better, on the day itself, the policing operation whispers across nine geographic sectors with additionalfunctional nine geographic sectors with additional functional commands dealing with things like protection or traffic or security or firearms, we had 51 active radio channels across nine sectors, that not including the protection channels which added another 80 or so in the context, a fast—moving environment, in the context of a very high threat, as we saw, i can see why that did not happen, but in terms of a debrief point, i think that would be one of the things i would focus on. in be one of the things i would focus on. . be one of the things i would focus on. , ., ,., . be one of the things i would focus on. , on. in terms of the police officers involved, where _ on. in terms of the police officers involved, where the _ on. in terms of the police officers involved, where the overzealousl involved, where the overzealous spice where they nervous of the fact that it was such a high—profile event and they did not want to be seen to be doing something which was not overly precocious? i seen to be doing something which was not overly precocious?— not overly precocious? i don't know if that is the — not overly precocious? i don't know if that is the case, _ not overly precocious? i don't know if that is the case, everybody - not overly precocious? i don't know if that is the case, everybody knew| if that is the case, everybody knew the significance of the event and officers were briefed as to the intelligence and we put in place measures ready bronze commander would be briefed if we were going to use specific legislation. we all knew the importance of the safety and security that we have touched on already, because that was... whilst ensuring those who wish to peacefully protest could do so. so i don't think overzealous is the right word, i think of course we were cautious, but in the context of the larger security operation we have ever run comedy once in a generation once event, no second chance to to get it right. once event, no second chance to to get it right-— get it right. thank you very much. first of all. _ get it right. thank you very much. first of all. my — get it right. thank you very much. first of all, my own _ get it right. thank you very much. i first of all, my own congratulations for how the operations were run on the day and the preparations for them as well. would i be correct in saying that the reasonable... the reasonable grounds for believing that the person's arrest being necessary and that threshold being met for the 52 that the police in theirjudgment decided it was necessary on the day, could potentially include for the fact that other members of the public, the members of the forces parading, the members of the forces parading, the procession could have come to harm? ~ the procession could have come to harm? ,, ., �*, the procession could have come to harm? 4' ., �*, the procession could have come to harm? ,, ., �*, ., harm? so, i think that's part of the overall context, _ harm? so, i think that's part of the overall context, i— harm? so, i think that's part of the overall context, i don't _ harm? so, i think that's part of the overall context, i don't think - overall context, i don't think that's part of the reasonable grounds are self, that could be linked to the necessity test, but for me, the reasonable grounds is based on what the officers see the individual is doing but taking into account the wider context. ii a account the wider context. if a consequence _ account the wider context. if a consequence of _ account the wider context. if a consequence of a _ account the wider context. if a consequence of a potential destructive act is that others could come to harm, with the police be duty—bound to take action? if the duty-bound to take action? if the individual is _ duty-bound to take action? if the individual is committing - duty-bound to take action? if the individual is committing an - duty—bound to take action? if tri2 individual is committing an offence and there was a power attach with it, then, yes, absolutely. one of the things to consider in terms of the things to consider in terms of the necessity to make an arrest would be the harm to others or the continuing harm to others. but would be the harm to others or the continuing harm to others.- continuing harm to others. but you 'ust said continuing harm to others. but you just said every _ continuing harm to others. but you just said every person _ continuing harm to others. but you just said every person is _ continuing harm to others. but you | just said every person is committing an offence, i think police can make an offence, i think police can make an arrest if they believe that they may be a risk that offence might be committed. ., . may be a risk that offence might be committed. . , ., may be a risk that offence might be committed._ as i i committed. that is also true. as i was walking _ committed. that is also true. as i was walking into _ committed. that is also true. as i was walking into parliament - committed. that is also true. as i was walking into parliament this i was walking into parliament this morning, i was walking across westminster bridge and these people who were sat behind you just a few moments ago where walking very slowly and there was an enormous amount of traffic behind, potentially with ambulances being prevented from getting to people who might have needed help quickly. would it not be in the place was my judgment in those circumstances that harm could come to people? i can hel- harm could come to people? i can hel with harm could come to people? i can help with that _ harm could come to people? i can help with that specifically. - harm could come to people? i can help with that specifically. this was a just stop oil protest on westminster bridge that started at 8:42 hours when they started marching towards parliament, our first public order officers were there at 8:46, a commander there at eight: 51, conditions imposed at eight, 56 and the removal of the road. while weeping saturn committee, the same group moved on to parliament square breaching those conditions and officers started an engagement process with a view to moving to enforcement. because i've been sat here, i don't know what the outcome of that is, but in terms of 14 minutes from start to finish conditions being imposed on the road clear, i think that's quite a good performance this morning. thank you chair and assistant _ performance this morning. thank you chair and assistant commissioner i performance this morning. thank you chair and assistant commissioner for| chair and assistant commissioner for coming here today. i think you did a greatjob on the day, thank you for that answer your officers. but the cynical amongst us, and i'm not cynical amongst us, and i'm not cynical by the way, the more cynical amongst us may think you have just turned up on these day because it was a special occasion, big occasion and did a really good job. what can you say to the public and committed to say that's not the case, you take the job seriously and we will do this any more regular basis now in london because we see these photos in almost a daily basis and i think the public and some of us have lost a little bit of but regained that during the coronation.- a little bit of but regained that during the coronation. getting the balance right _ during the coronation. getting the balance right between _ during the coronation. getting the balance right between the - during the coronation. getting the| balance right between the qualified rights of processors and the impact we have is difficult, directly where they are using destructive tactics —— protesters. if i can reassure you, in terms of the just stop oil activity we've seen, in the pre—christmas period where we were dealing principally with conspiracy to stop the motorway or people sitting there in the road, we made 754 arrests, those are progressing through the criminaljustice system, most of them are. that was an abstraction of 12,500 officers shifts which still continues in those people abstracted from community policing. since thejust stop oil action started a few weeks ago, this is the 12 weeks of action, so far we've seen 36 low marches, info section 12 public order conditions in 40 of those that lead to 29 arrest because the use of conditioning has worked. because this is bigger the more disparate this is bigger the more disparate this is bigger the more disparate this is already used over 300 officers shifts so the community are right to be concerned of the amount of time and effort that we are spending having to deal with disruptive protest. also, i think members of the committee should be reassured that we have a good operational plan and as is evident from this morning's activity, we are dealing robustly where people are just effectively hell—bent on causing disruption to the overwhelming majority of others going about their lawful business. i'm going to return tojoanna sherry for a short question. i'm a bit troubled by the statement you made about the fact you were booed by the crowd when you are arresting people, suggested you got the balance right? it arresting people, suggested you got the balance right?— the balance right? it was the other way around. _ the balance right? it was the other way around, the _ the balance right? it was the other way around, the crowd _ the balance right? it was the other way around, the crowd when - the balance right? it was the otherj way around, the crowd when filling the protesters. by ok, sorry. forgive me, that's my sloppy question. my question is this. share question. my question is this. are ou question. my question is this. are you seriously _ question. my question is this. are you seriously suggesting as a senior police officer that the fact that the protesters were being booed by other people, and then you went ahead and arrest them, the fact they were being booed suggest you got the balance right? it is that really your evidence to this parliamentary committee?— your evidence to this parliamentary committee? . , ., ., ., committee? that is not what i meant at all, that committee? that is not what i meant at all. that was _ committee? that is not what i meant at all, that was an _ committee? that is not what i meant at all, that was an observation, - committee? that is not what i meant at all, that was an observation, as i at all, that was an observation, as part of our evidence. when we talk about the people arrested, to be clear, the people arrested in terms of those in larger groups where those we believe were part of the criminal conspiracy to disrupt the procession. no sweat that where arrested if we are talking about the republic protesters were done at a van in st mark and slane which was not part of where the large crowds were, so that was not relevant to that at all, so in my evidence, if i mentioned, what i said was there was a large group of protesters that was in trafalgar square and they were at various points period by the crows, but that was evidence we were striking the balance right, they were left there and able to chant whatever they wanted about not my king and the crowd were able to do them if they wanted to but that did not lead to police intervention. i’m not lead to police intervention. i'm lad ou not lead to police intervention. i'm glad you clarified because the reason i'm asking is, the commission pointed out that celebrating crowds applauded and cheered as arrests were made in the mall area and i think someone we will hear from later suggested they met were not taking the human right to protest seriously. i'm worried about the idea that it is a good thing to arrest people if the crowd don't like them? so of the essence of our constitutional democracy, minority rights are protected or unfashionable views are protected? do you accept that? i unfashionable views are protected? do you accept that?— do you accept that? i don't think that's what _ do you accept that? i don't think that's what happened, _ do you accept that? i don't think that's what happened, i - do you accept that? i don't think that's what happened, i don't i do you accept that? i don't think. that's what happened, i don't think that's what happened, i don't think that's what happened, i don't think that's what we are saying, i think we are saying this was an observation, and i think from a policing duty point of view, it is our duty to enforce the law without fear or favour, our duty to enforce the law without fear orfavour, while1% our duty to enforce the law without fear or favour, while1% of the population supported because 99% of the population supported colours. thank you. have you issued an apology to the australian who got arrested by mistake? that apology to the australian who got arrested by mistake?— arrested by mistake? at this time there is an _ arrested by mistake? at this time there is an ongoing _ arrested by mistake? at this time there is an ongoing complaint, i arrested by mistake? at this time | there is an ongoing complaint, i'm aware of the circumstances of miss chambers, and there is an ongoing complaint which is going to be investigated in the properfashion, and once that's been done we will consider what correspondence we need to have with her. flan consider what correspondence we need to have with her. can i consider what correspondence we need to have with her.— to have with her. can i 'ust asked two very quick h to have with her. can ijust asked two very quick questionsdid i to have with her. can ijust asked two very quick questionsdid it i to have with her. can ijust asked. two very quick questionsdid it take 16 hours for those arrested on suspicion of being equipped to lock on to be released? it suspicion of being equipped to lock on to be released?— suspicion of being equipped to lock on to be released? it does seem like lona time. on to be released? it does seem like long time- the _ on to be released? it does seem like long time. the process _ on to be released? it does seem like long time. the process of— on to be released? it does seem like long time. the process of custody i on to be released? it does seem like long time. the process of custody is | long time. the process of custody is quite rigorous, quite formulaic, in this case circumstances such as five of the suspects had the same legal advice, they would need to be a process of that lawyer engaging with the individual, then going into interview, so it would be done in sequence, not in parallel, where there is only one legal adviser. what happened, they had one legal advisor? for what happened, they had one legal advisor? ., ., what communications did you have with westminster commune accounts and in relation to night stars? quite extensive communications, actually. on the night at the

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