ministerjan lipavsky, an ardent supporter of ukraine in a country facing a deepening energy and economic crisis. is europe's pro—ukraine stand sustainable? foreign ministerjan lipavsky in prague, welcome to hardtalk. hello and thank you for having me. it's a pleasure to have you on the show, foreign minister. i'm sure you as well as i have been watching the pictures coming out of ukraine, the swarms of kamikaze drones, so—called, which are now targeting ukraine's civilian infrastructure, leaving millions of people without heat, power, and looking at a very dangerous, alarming scenario through the winter. is this a signal that europe needs to do much more to offer ukraine military assistance? sadly, yes. we need to do more in terms of sending more air defence to ukraine to solve this, let's say, very specific issue of russia terrorism against ukraine's population. and it is a clear decision of vladimir putin to send drones, iranian drones to bomb civilian infrastructure and also to bomb civilians and such, and he's openly admitting it. so, it's a horrendous crime. those are horrendous war crimes, and we need to stand behind ukraine to be able to defend its territorial integrity and sovereignty. well, you call them war crimes, and of course, this is a war crime that is being aided and abetted by iran. so, before we get to what you want to see happen next in ukraine and toward russia, let's talk about iran. is it time for the european union to impose a new round of punitive sanctions on iran? yes, it is. and i have information that the eu is already working on such measures and i hope that there will be soon agreement in the eu and that will be announced. and can you tell me what the measures will be? i don't want to specify sanctions before they are presented and agreed on, but the measure is in regard of iran and drones. why is it, minister, that after weeks and months of ukraine pleading for better, more sophisticated air defence systems from countries like germany as well as the united states, why is it that ukraine still doesn't have what it needs? this is a very complex matter. and of course, many countries are doing 100% job and the czech republic is sending quite a lot of support to ukraine, speaking militarily, humanitarian, and in many other ways. and sometimes, sadly, we need such events like now that russia is bombing ukrainians�* civilian infrastructure to push politicians to make the final decisions. and i'm glad that certain countries made more faster decisions and they are sending specific, especially, and assistance to ukraine. right. you say some countries are acting with greater speed. some countries are clearly not. the two most powerful military states in the european union are france and germany. if one looks, for example, at france, it has given less than a tenth of the military assistance judged per capita that a tiny country like estonia has given. how can you explain that? and what is your message to france? i don't want to go in bashing germany or france. i would like to say that they are doing a good job, too, and they are sending a lot of military help too. of course, estonia, with a0 years of occupation by soviet union, as well as czechia. we have also our lengthy experience with being part of the soviet satellite, soviet empire. so, we have our own approach, and let's say that the whole population is quite quick in making such decisions. but in the end of the day, france and germany are part of the eu. the eu made a significant turnaround in policy in regard of russia. we have eight packages of sanctions we are discussing and other packages of sanctions. we are doing quite a lot of... ..on energy issues, on economic sanctions. so, in the end of the day, i'm happy that we have this european unity and we are not alone. we have important allies. we have allies like britain. we have allies like the united states, canada, japan and other countries joining us in these measures. and everyone is doing what is in their capabilities. i'm afraid one thing you just said is patently not true. that is that everybody is acting according to their capabilities. i mean, that clearly isn't true, because the united states aid and assistance, both military and economic, to ukraine, dwarfs that of the european union by five or six times at least. so, clearly, europe, which, of course, has overall a larger economy than the united states, could be offering much more, certainly much more economic assistance. but it isn't. we are still having this debate. it's eu 27, and until it's all agreed, the big measures cannot happen. and the big theme for the next year will be another package of macro—financial help to ukraine. so, even the eu will do and is doing a lot. of course, you can do always a little bit more, but in the end of the day, we are doing enough so ukraine can survive. ukraine is surviving. i am happy to see that. and i definitely, as czech minister of foreign affairs, i am not in a position to openly and heavily criticise any of the partners helping ukraine, too. the head of the imf, kristalina georgieva, says that over the next year, ukraine is so close to economic collapse, it will need between $34; billion a month just to stay afloat. now, in the united states, the republicans are saying that if they take the house of representatives, they will ensure that there's no longer, as they put it, a blank cheque going from the us to ukraine. so, europe is very probably going to have to step up in a way it hasn't before. do you think europe is capable of doing that? i'm sure that europe will need to do so if the stance of the united states will be such as the republican party is proposing to have it. but i don't think that the usa would move in a direction that would strip them of having such kind of influence in europe. and in the end of the day, the united states, they have an understanding of global policy, global politics and how things work. so, let's see what happens after midterms in the usa, and then see how the europe will react. i guess one big card that vladimir putin believes he still can play, even at a time when his forces on the front lines are suffering reverses, the card is his energy dominance, domination of europe. he believes that that will ensure that europe, in the end, cannot sustain its current levels of support to ukraine. has he got a point? no, he has not. he has not got a point, because he miscalculated in his understanding of our society, our western civilisation, that we are very resilient and we are able to survive even such situations. and the war in ukraine, russian aggression against ukraine, has caused many effects. the czech republic, 10 million country, we have hosted over 400,000 war refugees, and many other european countries did so, and we are now in the middle of energy crisis. the energy prices spiked in whole europe, also in great britain. and we need to find a solution in a way that we won't be blackmailed by any totalitarian regime, and the answer is diversification. the answer lies in lng projects, and there is a lot of lng gas coming to europe. the market price for gas is continuously falling. we are doing a set of measures to spend less gas and also for oil. so, in the end of the day, this winter won't be easy, but we will come through it. we will come through it successfully and that will make us stronger. and i mean stronger... ..the whole stronger europe. well, i dare say it's a little easier for you to be confident that you'll come through it than some of your own people, who are experiencing massive hikes in their energy bills, an overall inflation rate of i7%... many of them are having to choose between whether to heat their homes or feed their children, and it is feeding a new level of discontent inside your country, and frankly, vladimir putin sees thatjust as well as i do. vladimir putin tries to sow a disagreement into our societies — into czech society, into german society, into british society. we as politicians need to act in a way that we won't allow it. and the right answer, which is now happening and the czech government is doing that, is to have a proper social package and cap energy prices and compensate for that. and that's exactly what the czech republic is doing. and as i see, many other countries in europe are having the same recipe, more or less, because every country is solving that issue differently. we have a strong european consensus on that. so, in the end of the day, i am optimistic that we will be able to come through this winter as a europe successfully. but how sustainable is your policy? as i understand it, it's costing you almost 3% of gdp to cushion your population from the reality of the energy price rises. your budget deficit is rising alarmingly, and you've got thousands of people already taking to the streets, waving banners, saying, "you give everything to ukraine "and tell us to wear two jumpers." so, politically, your government is clearly running into trouble. i would disagree and i'm so confident because i know what oui’ measures. . . the demonstration you are referring happened in the middle of autumn, and then we presented our energy package and this demonstration hasn't repeated in a scale as you are referring to. and even local elections went through with quite, let's say, positive results, even for government. so, our point is to take care of society, and it's an extraordinary measure. and we are agreeing that this cannot be long—term policy. this is policy for a time, which we need to switch to other resources to make proper energy savings and find new sources of energy, which are projects which could take up to two to three years, and exactly this policy is designed in this way, to cushion in a time of crisis. interestingly, you in the czech republic currently hold the presidency of the european union. many people are calling it a crisis presidency of the european union. how confident can you be that the forces, the political forces that we've just discussed working in the czech republic won't actually change the minds of governments and leaders in other european nations who are feeling the pressure and might feel the need to back off on some of the support for ukraine and may try to find ways to get gas and oilflowing again from russia? you've got a right point, and therefore we need a strong european solidarity. we need to be interconnected. we need to cooperate. we need to take care for each other. you know, czechia, we have no sea, so we are dependent on our neighbours, that the energy resources will flow to us freely. so, for us, european project is a very important one. so, how do you explain hungary, for example? hungary, which in the midst of the summer crisis, where putin was ramping up and escalating in ukraine, the hungarians went to moscow and signed a new gas deal. they are so determined to stay in a warm relationship with moscow that they've refused to send any weapons to ukraine. they won't even let weapons cross their territory to go into ukraine. it makes a mockery of your talk of unity and a coherent european position. i wouldn't say it makes a mockery of our european position because all common european positions are happening with agreement of hungary in the end of the day. so, that needs to be said in the very beginning. but on the other side, i am...i agree that this is concerning. it concerns me. and i am not alone in europe, who is concerned with the hungarian stance in terms of hungarian—russian relationship. let us be explicit about what putin is doing in europe. do you believe he is using disinformation techniques, other forms of political interference to try and shape a more favourable political context inside the european union? i'm thinking of perhaps influence he can wield in countries like slovakia, bulgaria. we've already seen the triumph of the far—right in italy, where some of the key leaders, like salvini and berlusconi, have very warm relationships in moscow. do you think russia is actively trying to shape the landscape in the european union? russia is waging a hybrid war against europe and we have many fronts of this hybrid war. so, a political landscape and support to extremism, a left or right wing, it doesn't matter, it's one of these fronts. the other fronts are migration orchestrated from belarus. we've seen it last summer and last year. energy war is another one, and also the disinformation war. so, we have many fronts of this hybrid war, which is from russia against europe. to be clear, you're saying that, in that sense, you feel you are at war with russia? in hybrid war. yes, we are. we are in hybrid war with russia. definitely. right. well, hybrid war these days is a form of conflict. and i'm just wondering whether you can assure me that the european union has the means to fight, and fight effectively on this hybrid front. the eu is trying to grasp it. the eu is successful, more or less, on different issues, but in the end of the day, it's the responsibility of national states to protect its territorial sovereignty and integrity and integrity of their societies, so the eu can help, but in the end of the day, it's up to states. many in europe are already wondering what the endgame is, how this terrible war in ukraine comes to some sort of resolution. now, back in the summer, french president emmanuel macron said that key to this was not humiliating russia in any settlement. do you agree? i would disagree because there is no way how to humiliate russia. even they...they can... their propaganda can exploit anything. they have... they were as successful attacking kyiv and then leaving snake island and calling that a gesture of goodwill. so, i wouldn't really be caring about russia in this matter. but what we need to care is the future settlement, that the future settlement will reflect the integrity, territorial integrity of ukraine and the independence. right, but you know as well as i do that putin has declared the illegal annexation of four regions of ukraine. indeed, he hasjust declared martial law in those regions, and his spokesman, peskov, has said that russia retains the right to defend that territory, "sovereign territory," as he calls it, by any means necessary, which of course leads everyone to worry about the possibility of russian first use of nuclear weapons. you don't have a border with russia or ukraine, but you live in the neighbourhood. how worried are you by nuclear war? this is very dangerous rhetoric which we hear time from time from moscow. and we, the czech republic, great britain, we are a member of nato, and nato has also a component of nuclear deterrence. we have a plan, plans for such situations, and we need to send strong signals to moscow that they shouldn't be speaking about such things. would a russian first use of nuclear weapons inevitably, in your view, lead to a nuclear response? i don't want to go any details, how nato would react. definitely, there would be reaction because it would endanger nato as such. see, it's hard to imagine anything but more escalation, given what you have said about a resolution needing to recognise ukraine's sovereignty over all of its territory, and of course that includes crimea. put that against what the russians are saying about their determination, by all means, to keep their control over chunks of ukrainian territory, we are on course, are we not, for that most dangerous escalation? i think we have seen, even during this war, that even russia, a dedication to hold on something, has its own limits. we have seen it in the very beginning when the russian invasion wasn't able to invade kyiv. we have seen it in kherson 0blast when russia left the whole khers... ..kharkiv. sorry, kharkiv, kharkiv 0blast, due to the successful ukrainian offensive. so, i think ukrainians, they have a strong will to fight for their freedom. we need to provide them with help. and in the end of the day, russia will understand that international recognised borders are international recognised borders, and the charter of un is quite clear that those borders shouldn't be changed by brute force. i want to end again by sort of tapping into your perspective as holding the presidency of the european union. i want to think about the longer—term legacy of what europe has done in response to the ukraine—russia war. it seems to me that emmanuel macron�*s vision of, quote—unquote, "strategic autonomy" — where europe projects its own independent military and security power on the global stage — that's pretty much dead. what we've seen is that europe remains utterly reliant on the massive power of the united states. i would say that europe needs to enhance own security and defence capacities, and... but we are... europe consists of national states and we have national armies, and the war in ukraine, the russian colonial war against ukraine, shows us that if we join our forces together, we are much, much stronger. so, to build autonomous europe, for me, would be luxury. i think we need to focus on cooperation between the eu, nato and other countries like great britain and partners in indo—pacific. let's build a broader, broader coalition of states having same values — values of liberal democracy, freedom of speech, open and free elections — and let's protect this...this realm of...of this part of world, because unless that, there are major and big forces which will always try to dissolve it. minister, it seems to me what you're saying, in a very diplomatic way, is that right now, you in prague and many of you in eastern europe see more in common with london and washington than you do with paris and berlin. i wouldn't say so, and i understand your attempts to find disagreements, but in the end of the day, czechia is happy member of the eu, and france and germany are our most important partners in the eu, and in the nato, we are happy to cooperate with the uk and with the us. so, we need to cooperate and we need to be looking for ways how we agree. all right. well, foreign minister jan lipavsky in prague, i thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. thank you. hello there. thursday was a stormy day, rumbles of thunder, rain heavy at times moving its way steadily north. and that unsettled picture will continue for the next few days to come, with low pressure centring itself always to the southwest, throwing these weather fronts around that low, driving in plenty of frequent showers. but the wind direction coming from the south, so still relatively mild, a mild start to friday morning. plenty of showers from the southwest and some of these heavy, possibly even thundery once again, first thing in the morning. now they'll start to drift out of cornwall, up into wales, and gradually towards the midlands as we go through the morning rush hour, eventually moving their way steadily north. fewer showers into the far north of scotland, but nowhere maybe will escape those showers as we go through the afternoon. at least they'll rattle through at quite a pace because of that strong southerly wind — the strongest of the gusts close to the centre of the low during the afternoon, 50 mph not out of the question into the southwest. but always coming from a southerly direction, a mild source. so in between, with the sunshine coming through, temperatures still likely to peak into the high teens, which is pretty good for this time of year. now, as we move into the early hours of saturday morning, the centre of the low will move up into northern ireland, northwest england, and southwest scotland — that's where the frequent sharp showers are likely to be. we may well see some mist and fog forming behind as the winds become just that a little bit lighter, because we've got this little ridge of high pressure building for the start of the weekend. however, won't be long before another low starts to move in for sunday. so saturday, certainly the better of the two days through the weekend will have showers into northern ireland and much of central and southern scotland. clearer skies behind some sunshine coming through, lighter winds. and so it will feel quite pleasant in the sunshine with highs once again, 18—19 celsius somewhere where the best of the sunshine is. moving out of saturday into sunday, here's the next low, then pushing in from the southwest, the isobars once again squeezing together, the winds, strengthening, throwing those weather fronts and those showers right across the country. so once again, we could see some sharp thundery downpours on sunday and that story will continue as we head into monday. welcome to newsday, reporting live from singapore, i'm mariko 0i. the headlines. after weeks of chaos, liz truss leaves office, becoming the shortest—serving prime minister in british history. i cannot deliver the mandate on which i was elected by the conservative party. i have therefore spoken to his majesty the king to notify him that i am resigning as leader of the conservative party. the race is now on to find a successor, with a new prime minister due to move into downing street by the end of next week. we'll examine whether the conservative party can find a person capable of repairing the damage, and all the latest reaction. also on the programme.