Here in scotland. So challenges plenty. 0pportunities plenty as well. And thats why, probably, because of that success, the last two polls that have come out, of course, have shown the snp in lead position come a general election, whenever that may be. What about, if i may, the shadow and the uncertainty that comes with, i have to say, an Extensive Police investigation into quote Potential Embezzlement And Fraud at the heart of the snp. Its an investigation which has, of course, involved your predecessor, nicola sturgeon, and her husband, peter murrell, who was the former Chief Executive of the snp. Theyve been arrested, theyve been released. The police havent charged them, theyve denied any wrongdoing. But would you at least accept this is a massive cloud now hanging over your party . Ive never denied that the Police Investigation will clearly have issues, have challenges, present us with challenges, and voters will undoubtedly be concerned about the Police Investigation thats ongoing. Im being really upfront and honest with you. Those. That issue is not in my control. And one of the best bits of advice i got when i became First Minister was, youre only in control of what youre in control of. Everything else, youre going to have to do your best to try to eitherjust deal with it when it comes up or, frankly, where appropriate, ignore. And the Police Investigation is not in my gift to determine when it concludes. That, rightly, is in the hands of the police, and they should take the time they need and they require to thoroughly investigate that particular issue. Ultimately, ive got to stand on the track record of this government. Whatever my predecessors legacy and record is is an important record in government. Ive got to build on that and ive got to make sure that were trusted on the issues that matter to people. You were Health Minister here in scotland between 202i and 2023. When it comes to health, the snp, given the context it knows about, its relationship with westminster, its set certain targets, important targets for child and Adult Mental Health treatment, for emergency waiting times, for Cancer Treatment waiting times, for the intake of new staff and you have routinely missed all of these targets. So lets talk about two things. First of all, lets talk about the context, cos context is exceptionally important. Well, lets just talk about your record. Well, indeed, lets talk about the record. But the record is in a context. And that context, of course, is the global pandemic. So when it comes to the Health Service in scotland, run by the snp and ill talk to scotlands record injust a second or whether its the Health Service in wales, which is run by labour, or the Health Service in england, run by the conservatives, or the Northern IrishHealth Service, every single Health Service in the uk and i suspect a number of them across the world have suffered significant challenge because of the global pandemic. The pandemic. And the welsh people will ask for an accountability with their government. I will absolutely. The english people with theirs. When it comes to health. I will talk to this. The Scottish People hold you to account. And i will talk about the scottish record. My point is, to suggest somehow that this is unique to scotland would be absolutely incorrect. I never said that. But there are some things that are unique to scotland. When one looks at the number of people who die as a result of drug abuse, scotland is far out in front of any other of the uk nations. Its also far out ahead of other nations in europe. When one looks at longevity, scotland has a much worse record, with actual average lifespan going down in scotland at a rate that is not seen in other parts of the United Kingdom or other parts of europe. These are scottish problems. Well, lets talk about the scottish challenges, cos there are some unique challenges in scotland but also unique opportunity in scotland. We have the best performing a e departments anywhere in the uk for the last eight years. In scotland, of course, were the only nation in the uk that averted both nhs nursing strikes and, indeed, Junior Doctor strikes. We are, of course, the part of the uk where we have Record Health spending, front line spending, per head of the population. In terms of those unique challenges, im not going to argue with you. The level of drugs deaths in scotland is still far too high. And youre right to quote the statistics in comparison to the rest of the uk. And youre the First Minister who says that you want to decriminalise all personal use of drugs. Am i right . Yes. The party policy and the policy of the government is that we produced a paper based on evidence. And you think thatll help this problem in scotland . Well, if you look at the issue and how thats helped, for example, in portugal, theres been a significant decrease in drugs deaths because of decriminalisation for possession. And that is the point. Lets look at radical approaches, because the approaches that weve taken in the past clearly havent worked. How do you think the Scottish People felt when they learned, thanks to the scottish covid inquiry, that you sent a Whatsapp Message to the National Clinical director, jason leitch, cheerfully admitting that you as Health Minister were quote winging it and you worried youll get found out sooner rather than later. Youve described that as jocular. Do you think the Scottish People feel that way about it . I think people understand that private messages were intended to be that. Youre far more flippant, colloquial in private messages between colleagues. But winging it. Or between friends. In a pandemic where thousands of Scottish People. . It was talking about one interview, stephen, so lets not overhype. I mean, ive chapped a number of doors, talked to a number of people on the doorsteps, and, amazingly, not a Single Person has referenced the whatsapp conversations. Well, its sort of interesting you say that, cos, again, i know as a politician, you keep an eye on polling on specific matters. According to polling on health, 56 of scots say that the snp has done a poor or a bad job on health, 22 saying they have positive feelings about. And the point is that you were Health Minister, so this is very relevant to you. So a few things to say. First and foremost, of course, were the most trusted in terms of the Pandemic Response. And what was shown time and time again is our Trust Ratings when it came to the Pandemic Response were far better than Trust Ratings of other governments across the uk. The second point about the Health Service and i dont doubt that this is probably the most significant issue, alongside the cost of living crisis. Mm hm. For most people but the nhs, we stand on a proud track record of what weve been able to achieve. But the context of this is, of course, the pandemic has been the biggest shock that our Health Service has faced in its 75 year existence. Im not going to pretend to the scottish public that its going to take anything other than a number of years to recover through that. But we can demonstrate that recovery by the fact that we have, as i say, more Junior Doctors joining the nhs, the best paid staff not going on strike, of course, unique to scotland in comparison to other uk Health Services. Heres whats interesting to me. Weve discussed already significant challenges facing scotland, and yet as we speak to each other right now, what is actually consuming the headlines in this country and, actually, international headlines, too, and its a piece of legislation which you Asjustice Minister a few years back championed. Its known as the hate crime and public order act, something which seems to have got scots at war with each other for no clear purpose. Do you regret being one of the architects of that piece of legislation . No, im very proud of that legislation. Are you . Absolutely. That legislation. Lets just again provide some context. The stirring up offences against racial hatred have protected me as an individual since 1986, so most of my life i was born in 1985. Sure, but this extends the act. Well, exactly. And changes it. Thats exactly the point. Now, because im protected as a person of colour against racial hatred being stirred up against me, why should somebody not be protected because of their disability, or because theyre gay, or because theyre transgender, or because theyre jewish . Well, they absolutely should be protected in the same way that im protected because of my colour. So, for me, the extension of that protection, where the threshold is unbelievably high. So the criminal threshold to meet the new stirring up offences, your behaviour has to be threatening or abusive and it has to be intended to stir up hatred. And, of course, for all of that, there are a whole bunch of safeguards in place. Its complicated. The police in scotland have now pledged and they have to, they have a duty to investigate every hate crime complaint. Youve just indicated there are all these different categories it can come under now. The police now have a massive job. The general secretary of the Police Federation says it is a recipe for disaster. He says officers havent been properly trained on how to deal with this, the police dont have time to deal with it. And hes pointed out that theyre really struggling to deal with crime in scotland as it is, and this is a massive new burden on top. It doesnt make sense. Well, lets look at the stats and the figures. Crime is at one of its lowest levels in a0 years. Thats the record of the snp in the last 17 years that weve been in charge. So, record levels, one of its record low levels of crime. Secondly, Record Investment in Police Scotland thanks to the budget that we announced for � 24 � 25. And lets look at the fact that, of course, when it comes to complaints that come in around hate crime, the police are exceptionally well trained, in terms of how to deal with. Well, they say theyre not. Theyve already had thousands. It only came on april 1st theyve already have thousands of complaints. Thats not what the Chief Constable has said. The Chief Constable has made it really clear that officers have been trained, officers will continue to receive training. But, of course, dealing with hate crime is not something new for the police. They know how to deal with hate crime. Your own party colleague, joanna cherry, westminster mp, says that the Hate Crime Laws are being weaponised to silence gender critical women. It is a thought echoed by many feminists they would describe themselves as across scotland. Are you too now worried about what this is going to do to Freedom Of Speech on one very important social issue . No, i dont. And i see no evidence of people being silenced in terms of their gender critical views. Any cursory glance at any Social Media Platform would suggest to you that those views are not being silenced. Are you talking Aboutjk Rowling . Neither. Of course, the famous writer, she lives in scotland. She, in the last few days, has made a point of using her Social Media Platform to once again say to scotland and to the world that transgender women are not women, they are men. She says, Freedom Of Speech and belief are at an end in scotland if the accurate description of biological sex is deemed criminal, and she has invited the police to investigate her. Now, the police say theyre not going to. Well, thats exactly the point exactly. But you know what the real point is . There are now hundreds of transgender activists in your country who say that if this law is to mean anything. You cant have it both ways. Thenjk rowling must be investigated. Im afraid you cant have it both ways, stephen. So Whatjk Rowling has managed to prove, if anything, is, of course, that simply putting out tweets that may well be ones that i absolutely disagree with, and they may be offensive, hurtful. Do you disagree with them . Yes, i do Disagree Withjk Rowling On A lot of her tweets. And do you think shes Peddling Hate . Can ijust. . Can you just let me finish my point here . The point is that she then invited police to explore and examine her tweets. And the police made the obvious point and it would be obvious to anybody who read the legislation that they werent going to meet the criminal threshold of the stirring up offences that are in the act. So shes just. But, with respect, it isnt obvious to many transgender activists in scotland. No, no. Who say that if this act is to mean anything, then there has to be a proper investigation. This act. There was a proper investigation by police. The point of the act is to stop these stirring up offences, stirring up of hatred against a number of protected groups. We also, of course, have the common statutory aggravator framework, which has been consolidated and also been extended within the act as well. Butjk rowling has managed to prove the point that for anybody who actually reads the legislation, there is a high threshold for criminality. So i wasnt at all shocked. I dont know anybody, really, who read the legislation that was shocked that Police Scotland would not. Let me just ask you, if i may, a very simple question, cos youre First Minister of scotland, your voice matters. Is very publicly misgendering trans people as those trans people would see it misgendering trans people, is it threatening, abusive or insulting . Look, im not going to be caught into this binary. Its deeply offensive. Well, its not binary. No. Im trying to understand what this legislation which youve championed actually means. For the stirring up of hatred, your behaviour has to be either threatening or abusive and intended to stir up hatred. Misgendering somebody is unlikely to end up to meet those high criminal thresholds. The thresholds are deliberately very high. Misgendering somebody whos transgender, i think, is deeply offensive and upsetting, but the legislation isnt dealing with upsetting or offensive. Its dealing with behaviour thats threatening or abusive and intended to stir up hatred. Rightly, parliament agreed to a very high criminal threshold because that is what is required. Interestingly, you too have also been reported under the new hate crime legislation. And it actually, for many scots whove reported you, goes back to a speech you made in 2020, where you went through a whole series of important senior public posts in scotland which are held by white people. And you made a very powerful point about how white, white, white so many important positions in scotland are. And you said, its not good enough. Now, scotland is 96 white, and there are some very active people particularly on social media who are saying, humza yousaf� s message was essentially racist, it was anti white, and i, for one, feel that this is stirring up hatred against me as a white person. The police arent interested. They say its nonsense. Theyre certainly not going to investigate. Of course it is. But. But under the new legislation, the police also have to, as i understand it, record it as a non criminal hate incident and you will be named. How do you feel about that . So a couple of points to make. The description of those who reference that speech as hatred, ive not seen anybody who has described it in that way that isnt, frankly, part of the far right. The speech was in support of black lives matters. I was making the point, of course, that people of colour need to be better represented in senior roles. And im proud to be the first person of colour whos now First Minister and the first muslim leader of any western nation. The second point id make around non crime hate incidents being reported. Or recorded thats a matter for Police Scotland. But remember the reason for non crime hate incidents being recorded is part of, of course, the recommendation from the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. It was part of the macpherson report. So its really for the police to decide how they record it. Youve seen another spike in hate directed towards you, and, as you say, youre the first muslim leader of a government in western europe. I just wonder whether you worry about the degree to which you and yourfamily right now are being targeted by hate in this country . I worry about hatred towards my family in particular. 0bviously, im somewhat used to it. And thats not necessarily meaning that its acceptable in any way, shape or form, but any cursory glance at social media would show to you Death Threat