Now, its time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. The Chinese Government began this year by intensifying its crackdown on the pro democracy opposition in hong kong. Beijing seems determined to snuff out organised dissent in the territory in 2021. Amid the mass arrests, the surveillance of the media and academia, is there any safe space left for those fighting for hong kongs political autonomy . My guest is kenneth chan, a founder of hong kongs civic party and a former member of the Legislative Council. Is the fight for freedom in hong kong lost . Professor chan, in hong kong, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. Pleasure to be here. Professor chan, right now in hong kong, is it possible to operate as a pro democracy political activist . It is increasingly difficult because of the introduction of the National Security law and the arbitrary implementation of the law that we have seen so far. So, a lot of people are very concerned. I would say we increasingly succumbed to a feeling of helplessness and pervasive fear, as well. So, its become harderfor me, for example, to reach out to talk freely with people. I attended a small discussion just a couple of evenings ago with a small group of local activists. We had to put away our phones. We were very concerned about the meeting itself, although there was nothing really special that we would like to talk about, just about sharing feelings. So, i think thats a kind of a concern that a lot of people, notjust in hong kong but all over the world, will have about hong kongs future and its fight for democracy. You talk about fear. Are you fearful talking to me right now . Because i dont think either of us is so naive that we believe the authorities, if i can put it that way, will not be tuned in to this conversation. Well, i am sort of an optimist, and i must remain hopeful, and i do not follow the logic of inevitability, that means hong kong is inevitably going to be shut down by an autocracy, that i am inevitably going to jail. So, i try to live a day, or every day, in full. I think a lot of people are in agreement with me in that sense. We try to function as normally, as freely as we ought to be in hong kong. Now, of course, we would not have the crystal ball to tell what is going to happen to me or to you after this interview but today i decided that i should be free and able to talk with anyone that i would like to about hong kongs difficulties. Right but surely the lesson ofjanuary 6th in hong kong and the arrest of more than 50 pro democracy activists of one stripe or another, the lesson of that is that any political expression which involves dissent from the Hong Kong Government and the beijing line is now regarded as subversion, and subversion carries with it, under the new National Security law, the potential for something approaching, i believe, a life sentence in prison. So, i come back to this point for you. Its personal. Are you not fearful of everything that that law entails . Among those 55 people arrested on the 6th of january that you mentioned, we call it the mass arrest of democracy activists in hong kong, five of them are with me from the civic party. All they tried to do last summer was to win as many seats as possible. So, for us, its about winning seats, its about winning elections, its about gaining control in the september Legislative Council elections, which eventually was postponed and may even be cancelled eventually for a long, long time to come but, for beijing, its subversive. So, where exactly is the line . I dont know, because they keep changing the line. You know, for me as a pro democracy person, when ijoined the Pro Democracy Movement as a Student Activist some 30 years ago, to me its very clear. We, the democrats, we, the Freedom Fighters in hong kong, also we have to tell china, beijing and the rest of the world we also need our space to operate. Now, if beijing doesnt like it and turn anything that beijing doesnt want to see, doesnt want to have in hong kong as subversive, the whole hong kong population would be in trouble. So, this is the thing. I mean, they try to intimidate us, they try to terrify people, they try to terrorise the Pro Democracy Movement. I think we are going through a very tough time. However, i think sooner or later they will see that more and more people will get really upset and be ready to express their views again through peaceful and other means available. At the moment, a Carrie Lam Administration is not really as strong and legitimate as they try to pretend to be. According to the latest Opinion Survey that ive come across, only 18 , only 18 supported her, and 69 against her. So, is it a strong government or is it very, very weak and illegitimate government that the people should not be fearful about . It should be the government fearing the people rather than the other way round. This is the way i see it. Right. Maybe this government is not one that you can measure by the strength of opinion polls, but simply by the strength of the commitment made by beijing, the sovereign power here, to make sure the government runs, whether people like it or not and the reality, it seems, right now is that beijing has decided that opponents of the Hong Kong Government will not be allowed to run in Legislative Council elections, will not be allowed to win a majority in that council, and will not be allowed to challenge the authority of chief executive carrie lam. So, what are people like you, in opposition parties like the civic party, going to do this year . Because there are supposed to be legco elections in september. Will you go ahead and fight a campaign . Will you try to win a majority . And if you do, do you have any hope that you will avoid arrest . Basically, no one can tell what the future holds for myself and for the rest of us in the Pro Democracy Movement and, to be honest, we even dont know whether that will be an election at all. Now that there have been some news coming from various sources saying that the government of hong kong or beijing would like to change the electoral rules again, to basically stamp out the democrats to control the electoral process from the beginning to the end. So, we have seen such authoritarian elections in which the dictators and autocrats will control the whole process from the beginning to the end. So, this is what we are getting into. I think, for democrats, whats interesting is that we should not just look at the elections. We really have to stand with the people and for the people. We have to start from scratch, if possible, coalition with like minded groupings and individuals in civil society. This is what we still can do in hong kong and for hong kong, and to remind ourselves and the rest of the world the fight for hong kongs democracy is not over. Well. And it will notjust end with the National Security law. Right. You say the fight isnt over, but isnt the reality that the entire premise upon which hong kongs government was set up post the return of sovereignty to china, the entire premise was one country, two systems. The two systems part of that equation is dying, if not already dead. Its a very interesting observation and hong kong is not dead, even though the policy of one country, two systems is less and less convincing, especially among young people, among students that i see every day. To them, the policy of one country, two systems makes no sense to them and this is, of course, dreadful. So we have to turn around and say, ok, forget about one country, two systems for the time being, because the autonomous status of hong kong is no longer guaranteed by the mainland chinese policy. So, what hong kong people must do to stand up for hong kong and to sort of guarantee that we have some sort of freedom to operate, to express our own view and the will of the people altogether. So, without elections, what we could do is to organise ourselves among ourselves in civil society. Weve seen autocrats or dictatorships before in different parts of the world, and, of course, through resilience, through a bit of a resilience in opposition, we might be able to soldier on and linger on for a long time to come. Right. Professor chan, you are a respected professor of government and politics. You must therefore be a realist about the way politics works, and is it not time for you to acknowledge that the Pro Democracy Movement in hong kong has overplayed its hand over the last couple of years . If one thinks back to 2019 and the raft of street protests, the mobilisation of hundreds of thousands of people against what was then the putative National Security law and then the fight you took to the regime in hong kong in the local elections of late 2019, when you, in the opposition, won a huge number of seats, took control of local councils across the territory, you overplayed your hand. You frightened beijing to the point where beijing became absolutely determined to stamp out this scale of dissent. If you had your time again, would you do things differently . Interestingly, you are saying that we have a superpower, which is the peoples republic of china, which is afraid of the people, afraid of the people speaking up. This is an irony. Its a paradox, indeed. So, as far as im concerned, what we do in hong kong is really trying very hard to do what we have been promised, which is a smooth and gradual progress towards democracy, election for the chief executive and all lawmakers by universal suffrage. I think we exercise our right to say no to ideas and packages or legislative proposals that are not acceptable as far as hong kong is concerned, because of what weve been promised under one country, two systems. And i think hong kong people have always been very moderate, always been trying to be patient. And it was beijing, first of all, which started to deny the right to democracy for hong kong people back in 2007 and 2008. Even the pro beijing camp back then thought there would be democracy by 2007 and 2008. So its beijing not once, but many times kept violating human rights and, well, taking back the promises made to hong kong people. So i hope we can put things into context. Im sure you can do that. Everybody can see that were up against a battle. Were up against an increasingly aggressive and bullying country, notjust for us in hong kong, but you can see that is happening to other countries and other peoples as well. Here you sit still in hong kong and you have a choice to make and many others do, too. You can either back off a little bit, like the leader of your civic party has suggested that he is now very careful about who he speaks to, what forums he speaks in. He says its time perhaps to create a little bit of calm. Others say, no, we need to be back on those streets. Which camp are you in . It takes two to tango, put it that way. I mean, on the one hand, of course, if beijing is interested in negotiating, or discussing with anyone among us in hong kong about hong kongs democracy, about restoring that track, leading hong kong to democracy, i suppose a lot of people would be quite willing to do that, but that track has been lost, taken away from us. Right now, that is not what is happening. So you have a choice, you and others go back onto the streets and make this a popular protest, try to occupy those streets again or make it look to the outside world as though, frankly, youve been defeated. I think weve been really badly hurt by the National Security law. I think as far as hong kong is concerned, as far as hong kong people are concerned, i think a lot of people still would like to exercise our rights and Civil Liberties in a peaceful and non violent manner. Meaning we mayjust go back to the street. Weve seen those activities or movements from around the world and lately in lukashenko� s belarus. Why cant we exercise our right as well . I mean, frankly, just talking to dictators and talking to tyrants, saying that, hey, well back down a little bit. Would you be nicer to us . Really is really not, i understand, as a true and fair and a decent fight for democracy. This is what we try to do for hong kong and to show the rest of the world. Very, very interesting point. Let me put to you the words of fergus leung, a pro democracy councillor. I suspect you know him. He has been arrested. He said this recently. He said that the Chinese Communist partys latest moves around the National Security law mean that the what he calls burnism in hong kong is inevitable. And by that he means the phrase burnism captures the idea that if we burn, you burn with us. Is that your message to the Chinese Communist party today . It would not be my message, but obviously china is quite determined to wipe out the hong kongs Pro Democracy Movement and the support if possible. Lets look at the International Context on the very day, january 6th, that more than 50 pro democracy activists were being rounded up by the hong kong police, you know what was happening in washington, dc, that crowd of pro Trump Supporters launched a violent assault on the us capitol. Now, the Chinese Government has used that and so indeed, has chief executive carrie lam in hong kong, for rhetorical purposes. This is what carrie lam said afterwards. She said, some overseas commentators were condoning or encouraging these sort of activities under the guise of democracy in hong kong. But when the same thing seemed to happen in their own country, they immediately took a very different approach and condemned the violence. And some said that this was verging on sedition, the very arguments that beijing has been using to justify its National Security law. So what happened in the United States onjanuary 6th has become a massive problem for you, hasnt it . No, not at all. I think hong kong people are quite clear minded. We understand that what we are what were doing here, were fighting a dictatorship, we are fighting for democracy. And also after millions of people taking to the streets. Yeah, but people taking to the streets, lobbing rocks at policemen, challenging authority. You know, we saw it in the United States. We saw it in washington, dc, and it was condemned by democrats is absolutely outrageous. The chinese authorities are now going to say the very same thing next time you and your people take to the streets of hong kong and start hurling rocks at the hong kong police. It pains me and everybody supporting democracy to see that sort of thing happening in a democracy, that means the United States of america, when differences and deep divisions could have been resolved through the ballot papers, through the ballot boxes. Now, in the case of hong kong, to be honest, i am a moderate. I dont support violence for the sake of supporting violence, put it that way. But then at the end of the day, what i would try to say was that moving away from the rhetorical reasons, you know, for carrie lam and for beijing spokesperson to talk about americas situation, in hong kong a lot of people want a peaceful resolution. I think a lot of moderates were really driven into despair when carrie lam herself refused to retract the most controversial extradition law in the summer of 2019. Now, this is really dreadful. I mean, we are talking about accountability. We should be talking about. We should be both responsible for what and, of course, those involved in actions and activities against the legislature, against the police are being arrested, facing trials, facing long sentences. And what happened to the government who started all this . They are still in charge, they are still in power, and now theyre armed with the National Security law and do all these arbitrary arrests and intimidating people across hong kong. I think we should be very concerned about these developments as well. But i talk to you of the International Context. We see the United States going through a very difficult transition of power. Indeed. We also see it hindered by covid, economic crisis, political disarray. We see the European Union also hit very hard by covid, but also very eager to push an investment deal with beijing forward. So thats clearly a deep concern for them. Overall, we see a china which, post covid, is already in economic recovery and which appears to see a window of opportunity to exert its power in many different areas, whether it be internally, and we know what theyre doing to the weaker people inside the chinese mainland, also in hong kong, also in diplomatic relations, china appears to feel that it has the room, the space to pursue its interests ruthlessly. The International Community doesnt appear willing or able to stop them. I think the International Community need to really reflect very deeply about chinas rise to supremacy, notjust in this part of the world, but on other International Forums as well. I thinkjoe biden, the incoming president , would like to have a democracy summit, would like to rebuild multilateralism, would like to put human rights back to foreign policy. I think these are very important signals. And of course, i really dont know what exactly will unfold eventually. But as far as im concerned, as far as hong kong is concerned, we never walk alone in the fight for democracy. We are not democracy� s orphans. I think we have always enjoyed international attention, focus, and, of course, its notjust for the sake of getting the attention, its because we mean it. We mean to enjoy fully our democratic rights. And those rights should not be violated easily. And of course, im very concerned that the eu agreeing an investment deal with china and i have yet to see the substance. I do very much hope to see more mentioning about human rights conditions in that deal as well. Do you feel somewhat ignored and abandoned right now . I think quite the contrary. In the last few years or since 2014, during the Umbrella Movement in which i was arrested three times for my participation in Illegal Assembly and so on, ive seen increasing attention and concern about hong kongs situation. I think the world has finally come around to acknowledge that its not enough just to listen to what the government or the official propaganda would say about the state of one country, two systems. We are we are turning to a more realistic understanding about the lack of autonomy or the declining autonomy of hong kongs situation and have a more evidence based approach to understand hong kongs situation. This is what im pleased to see. Let me ask you one final question, which is more personal and connected to yourjob. Im guessing from the background that i see that youre perhaps talking from your university. Yes. The truth is that the National Security law comes with a whole raft of sort of new security measures about sedition and terrorism and clamping down on everything that the chinese now regard as subversion in hong kong. But it comes with other measures, too, including the ability of the authorities to reach deep into the education system, to control what is being taught in universities, even in schools as well. And isnt the truth that the next generation of Young Hong Kongers is going to grow up with a very, very different perception of what the relationship between hong kong and beijing should be, what the National Security law represents, and you and the older generation are going to be disconnected from these young people . I dont think so. Quite the contrary. It would give me an advantage, i would say, an opportunity, to say the least, to really talk about Academic Freedom and its importance to myjob, to their education and to hong kongs younger people in many years to come. In the past, i basically didnt feel the need to talk about Academic Freedom because we just took it for granted that we enjoyed that, but now because its under threat its important for us to talk about the basic principles and practices of Academic Freedom in classes, in tutorials, in debates, in writing papers and so on. But, professor, the more you insist on doing that, the likelihood is that you are going to be fired before we next speak again. I would beg to disagree with those who would like to threaten me with that. I would say that, basically, as long as ijust exercise my freedom of speech, freedom of thought and Free Exchange of ideas, i mean, i uphold the idea that we should enjoy a free market of ideas for hong kong because its the only right thing to do for hong kong. Behind me, behind these windows behind me, is actually the Peoples LiberationArmy Barracks right here next to my campus. Either i shut up or urge everybody to practise self censorship and pretend nothing happened, nothing bad has happened to hong kong, or wejust simply openly address those concerns of ours. So its important for us to tell the world how we feel, our concerns and fears, as i started this programme with you at this today. I think its also important to tell the people how to overcome the fear, how to really speak truth to power. Kenneth chan, i thank you very much for joining me on hardtalk. Thank you. Hello there. Storm christoph will bring disruptive weather over the next 48 hours. The rains been falling through the day on tuesday, already mounting up to over an inch in places, and theres a lot more rain yet to come. And as it bumps into the cold air in the north, potential for snow as well. Lets focus on the rain because in some parts of england and wales, we could have around 150 200 mm of rain falling over the hills onto ground thats already saturated. River levels are already high. So, this amber warning from the met Office Highlights those areas particularly saturated at the moment with the high river levels plus the snowmelt to take account of as that also runs into the River Systems but its as i mentioned, its wet right the way up into Northern Ireland and southern scotland with the added potential of several centimetres of snow falling on some parts of the southern uplands, possibly even the Central Lowlands through the night, and ice, too. Furthersouth, its milder, its windier, and that south westerly wind, that moist south westerly wind, keeps pumping that rain up onto the hills and mountains of england and wales through the day but therell be some heavier rain elsewhere as well. So, a fairly grey, wet, windy sort of day and with some risk of snow as well as further rain across some northern areas. A contrast in our temperature and that comes into play later in the day on wednesday because as colder air digs southwards as that low pressure, storm christoph, moves out into the north sea and cold air digs in, it will turn the rain progressively to snow. At lower levels, potentially 5 10 cm through wednesday night and into thursday. More over the hills. Notjust scotland but, exclusively, some across the hills of northern england, too. The winds by that stage as the low pressure, storm christoph, moves out into the north sea get towards gale or even severe gale force winds. Blowing that snow around, blizzard conditions at least theyre blowing that rain away by that stage. By that stage, we will have seen significant amounts of rainfall, as i say, and flood risk really escalates in the next 12 24 hours. Then the cold air digs in and things slowly start to quieten down but between now and then, weve got that heightened flood risk across england and, wales persistent rain and several hundred millimetres in places, then that snow risk heavy snow with drifting and blizzards in the north. Weather warnings and the flood warnings all on the website. This is bbc news. Im ben bland with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Paying tribute joe biden and Kamala Harris lead a ceremony to honour the 400,000 americans whove died during the pandemic. To heal, we must remember. Its hard, sometimes, to remember. President trump releases a farewell video on his last day in office before issuing his president ial pardons, including one for a key former aide. And this is the scene, live, in washington wherejoe biden will be sworn in as the 46th president