That is it for me. The Vice President will debate comes up and just president will debate comes up andjustan president will debate comes up and just an hour. Now on bbc news, its hardtalk with stephen sackur. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. Prime minister Narendra Modis dominance of indian politics is unquestioned. His ability to deliver competent government in a crisis. Well, thats less certain. India now has the second highest official number of covid infections in the world. The realfigure is thought to be up to ten times higher. The economys in big trouble, too. My guest is a National Spokesman for the ruling bjp, narendra taneja. Maybe mr modis populist strongman act is about to come unstuck. Narendra taneja in delhi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me. Its a pleasure. Mr taneja, would you accept that over the past seven months, the Modi Governments attempts to control the coronavirus pandemic in your country have not succeeded . Not succeeded . Oh, well, i think if you look at our record in terms of, you know, coronavirus patients per million, and at the same time, overall numbers right now as we speak, the number of cases, active cases of coronavirus, active cases in india is about 960,000. Thats less than a million in a country of 1. 36 billion people. So, i dont know what basis. You know, youre saying its not successful if you look across the country and look at the economic, social, cultural life of the country, its life almost back to, more or less back to normal. Economic activities are back to normal. And you have to go by the core numbers given by, you know, doctors and scientists. The numbers, total number of cases, a little over six million, but active cases, actually less than one million. So it depends how you want to look at it. The way i look at it, i think, its a very good record on the part of both the federal government of india and also various state governments, because health is a serious subject in india under the constitution, as you know. Yeah. Mr taneja, i think you have a reputation in india as being a bit of a technocrat. You just said to me, you have to go with the numbers, follow the numbers. Isnt the fundamental problem in india that you have a Health Care System where the numbers are simply utterly unreliable . I think its a very serious statement and i refuse to accept it. I think when it comes to numbers, you see when it comes to coronavirus, you cant hide it. Wherever you are in the country, whether you are in a village. Well. Small town, a big city like delhi, you cant hide it. Exactly. You cannot hide it. You have to go to the doctors. You cant hide it. And there is. Let me stop you there. We are using technology. Let me stop you there. Let me put to you something which suggests there is a profound problem with indias numbers. The Indian Council of medical Research Conducted an in depth survey of 29,000 people across 700 villages, town and city wards. They found in this very Detailed Survey that one in 15 people above the age of ten had antibodies for the coronavirus. Now, if that were mirrored, that kind of detailed, deep, deep dive survey were mirrored across the country, that would mean that your total number of infections wasnt the six million which your government officially recognises, but would actually be over 60 million. Thats the truth in the numbers. No, no, no. You want to call it a deep dive. Its not a deep dive in a country of 1. 36 billion. You surveyed 30,000 people or even 50,000 people i wouldnt call it a deep dive. Thats not what i was taught in my school. You know, the point here is that we have to go by numbers. We are using technology and we are very good when it comes to technology, using technology for these things. Based on technology, based on Data Available at the headquarters of the indian government, number is what i shared with you and of course there are independent agencies, they want to come out with their own numbers. Its up to you whether you want to buy them or not. I certainly dont. Most scientists dont. No, no, no. Most doctors dont. No. Mr taneja, its not up to me whether i buy them or not. Its again, its about statistics and understanding statistics. Do you happen to know how many people per 100,000 in india are actually being tested for the virus per day . Do you happen to know that figure . Listen, you. You cant test every single indian. 1. 36 billion. No, answer the question. There are certain. Youre the National Spokesman for the bjp. Im answering that. How many people per 100,000 on average are being tested for the virus per day . Listen, listen. I know where you basically want to, you know, your point, i understand that. But the point here is that, you see, there are certain regions and zones, total number is about ten, thats where we are focusing. And we have done the surveys there, including the surveys you are referring to. Also, the area where therefore we dont see any reason to go, and go off on any deep dive in terms of surveys. We know those areas. No, no. Thats being done very scientifically. Mr taneja, youre misunderstanding me. Im not talking about. Thats being done very scientifically. Im not talking about surveys any more. Thats the figure. Im talking about your people, the indian people, getting tested for coronavirus. Let me give you the answer. No, no, no. Itsjust over 80. No, no. Just over 80 per 100,000. The figure in the United States is nearly 300. In the uk, its over 300. Let me answer. Unless you do the testing, unless you do the testing, you have no idea how prevalent the virus is in your national population. Let me. Let me answer it. We have done the testing. In some places, we are going for a kind of intense testing. In some areas, we have done testing in a slightly different way but we have got overall reserves because if in a community, or in a society or in a condominium or in a village, there are some cases, we immediately go for, you know, the intense testing in those areas. And that leads to the conclusion. 0verall, you see what we are precisely trying to do is that. Dont compare with the United States. Thats a different political system, thats a different society, its a developed country. In our country, we have got. We know precisely where to go because when it comes to these tests, these are. These are expensive tests. But at the same time, the government has made it clear money is not the problem. Wherever necessary we are going and doing the testing and therefore the data that i shared with you, number of active cases is about 960,000 today. This is the scientific figures. This is the exact numbers. The numbers being given by other people, its up to you whether you want to buy them. I dont. All right. Do you think the indian people have been impressed with the strategy pursued by the Modi Government . We think of your draconian lockdown in march and now, in september, where weve seen thousands of new infections across your country, we see your government easing all restrictions across the board and saying that the economy must be a priority. Do you think the indian people regard your strategy over seven months as coherent . 0h, absolutely they do. Thats precisely because in a democracy, unless you have the support of the people, i mean, you cant really move ahead. We have the support of the people. Youre calling it draconian. Its up to you. The point is, at that given time, at that given particular moment, this was the best alternative. That was taken, the decision was taken in the best interests of the health of the people. At that time the most important thing was to protect the health of every single indian. And thats precisely what we did. We put everything, you know, every other consideration, you know, at the moment, on the other side, and we decided to focus on only one thing. Right. Now, we are protecting their health at the same time we are also protecting their economy, economy of every single individual. You can understand this is pandemic time. Its not that easy. And we are an emerging economy. We are not switzerland or the United States, there are constraints and there are challenges. But given the constraints and the challenges, i think what we have managed to do, we have the full support and were getting a thumbs up from the ordinary people of the country. Nobody would. Precisely for what we have managed to do. Mr taneja, nobody would say this is easy. And weve seen governments grappling with this around the world. I do appreciate that. But in india, is it fair to say that you have decided to prioritise the economy, and that in the end, coronavirus will run through india until your population has some sort of herd immunity . Is that what its going to be . No, no, no, no, no. You see, what we have prioritised is not the economy. The people and their wellbeing, overall wellbeing their health, their economy at the same time. So thats what the priority. Priority is still the people of the country, the most important, but at the same time, they need money. They want to be. You know, they want to run their kitchen. They have theirjobs to protect, so on and so forth. So thats the kind of. Thats the kind of approach that the government is following. Its a very holistic approach, on the one hand, making sure theyre taking care of their health at the same time theyre taking care of their economic wellbeing. Well. Thats how it works. And the results are fantastic. You have to talk to the ordinary people. Talk to the ordinary people on the ground in the country. And then you will get to know the exact picture. Well, the results. People are satisfied with the efforts being put in by the government. The results are. And also by various state governments. The results, you say, are fantastic. I doubt that feeling is shared by the more than 100 million indians whove lost theirjobs as a result of the economic crisis over the last few months. And ijust wonder what indians make of this one simple fact china, which is often compared to india in terms of economic management, china has restored growth and in fact, the imf predicts that china will deliver overall growth for this year, 2020, of roughly 1. 2 . Now, it looks, according to moodys and others, that india, after a total economic meltdown in april and may, will see an overall contraction for this Financial Year of over 11 . Why the difference . Well, good question. First of all, im surprised that coming from bbc, sitting in london, you know, you are comparing india with china. Youre comparing a democracy, a very vibrant democracy where everything is transparent, including data, with a dictatorship. You are quoting this figure. I dont buy these figures about china. You may. China is. We dont know about figures and data that comes out of china. We dont know what exactly the situation there. We all know the virus came from, travelled from china, you know, from china to europe, from europe to india. Thats how it travelled. The other questions what theyve done, where the virus came from, what is happening inside china . What is happening with the economy . Whats happening in the economy of the ordinary chinese . We dont know. You seem to buy everything that china, the chinese government, say, which is an authoritarian government. I dont. Im very proud of democracy. We might have our own challenges, so on and so forth, but this is. Therefore, i will not compare, i will not compare a Democratic Society with an authoritarian society like china. Youve carefully avoided. You want to do that, please do that. Youve carefully avoided addressing what india has done wrong. No, i can answer that also. What india. I can answer that. Hang on. What india has done wrong. I can answer that. Because according to the World Bank Report that was issued injuly, because of the impact of covid 19 on your economy, around half half of your population is, quote, at risk of slipping back into poverty due to income and job losses. Thats extraordinary, isnt it . This figure. Dont buy this figure. I dont buy this figure. Its bogus. Let me tell you one thing. The figure youre quoting in terms of contraction, youre quoting the figures of month of april, may and june. That was a time when we imposed lockdown. Yes, that. That means the government basically decided to shut down. I didnt even quote that figure. No. But our audience might be interested to know that that contraction, april tojune, was roughly 24 . 2496. Yes, thats. And youre telling me that your performance has been spectacular, its been an enormous success . It is. When i say enormous success, challenges are there for everybody to see. But when i said this figure, we took the decision and thats why the contraction figure was what it was, because everything we had, we decided to shut down. Now that things are getting back to normal, let me share with you, look at power consumption, a very important indicator. Power consumption is back to normal, 100 the same figure. You know, which Means Industries have opened. The same goes for consumption of fuel. , you know, consumption of so many other things. When you look at the pictures, now that we decided to open up, things are more or less getting back to normal. And you will see by end of this year, that is by christmas time, that Economic Life in india is going to be back to normal, almost. Which means the figure you are quoting, then you can compare with china and so on, because we took the decision in the best interests of the people, because we have many challenges. We are a very vast country. The number of people who live in india is more than the total population of africa. So we know our country very well. We took the decision in the best interest of the people. There is no other country that you can compare with india. Problem is. Because our challenges, our constraints, our challenges and constraints are so unique to our country. The problem is. So you cant compare. Yeah. Problem is, mr taneja, that your sort of boss, the Prime Minister, narendra modi, has totally built his image in the country around delivering, quote unquote, the new india, a newly prosperous, efficient india, which he says will be a 5 trillion economy within, i think, three orfour years and a 10 trillion economy soon after that. All of that has gone. Well, your view. You know, when we took over power in 2014, 67 indians didnt have bank account. Now every single indian has got bank account. Majority of people didnt have toilet. Every indian household has a toilet now. Majority of people didnt have access to clean fuel. Today, every single household has access to clean fuel. Many thousands of villages had no electricity. Every single village has gotten. You think that this is not india, sitting in london, up to you, sitting in new delhi and knowing my country very well, this is new india. We are in the process of making new india. It is all there for you to see. I invite you to come to delhi. Ill personally take you and show you the new india and youll be surprised. I thank you for that, and i look forward to it, not least because some of the things youve just mentioned, like the tens of millions of new toilets, which is a very serious commitment. Bank account. And a commitment which mr modi seems to have delivered on. The problem is that many of those toilets are simply not working cos your Water Infrastructure is so poor. But let us not get stuck on that particular detail. I am interested to hear you say that overall, you think the indian people are very, very pleased with your governments performance. If thats the case, why is mr modi and your government so keen to repress all signs of criticism . Repress . Oh, come on. You see the most influential newspaper in delhi, where im sitting, is called the Hindustan Times. Please open the Hindustan Times of today, of yesterday, the day before yesterday, last month, a year before. They are very critical of our government and they are the main newspaper in delhi. The telegraph, the most influential daily newspaper of kolkata, please open the telegraph of today, e paper, show it to your viewers. Yeah, im. |m. Criticising the government 2a by seven. There is no. There is. In our constitution, the press freedom and, you know, liberty, these things are guaranteed by the constitution. Well, thats an interesting. And we. The constitution is our bible. Thats our bible. Yeah, well. For our country, the constitution is our bible, its our bhagavad gita, its our koran. Well, i dont know what your commitment to your bible is, but at least 55 journalists have been imprisoned, forgive me, not imprisoned, but have had official investigations opened up into them and their work since march. Youve passed new legislation ensuring that every critical article has to then include a description of what the official government position is on every issue covered. You have also, if you look across the piece, youve closed down the Amnesty International operations inside your own country, when they have been one of the most persistent critics of your human rights record. Let me. If you are a government that is confident of your record, why are you doing these things . Let me answer. You see, first of all. I mean, first of all, amnesty, they decided to close down the office. Your report is wrong. Your facts are wrong. Please correct your facts. The government of india didnt ask them to shut down the office, they decided to close down the office. If. There is a huge difference between the two. If your Bank Accounts are frozen. Number two. It is very hard to see how you can continue operations, and you know it. Listen, if you are doing something which is against the indian law and a Competent Authority takes the decision to close down your bank account, are we a Banana Republic . What do you think . India is. There are laws in this country. If you have anything against, amnesty can go to the Supreme Court of india, can go to any court in india. The truth is. They decided to shut down. No, the truth, mr taneja, is that amnesty and indeed other human rights groups, but lets focus on amnesty, cos theyre the ones that, in the words of amnestys senior director rajat khosla in delhi, he said, we have faced an