It is 4 30 a. M. , and it is time to hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. The Chinese Government goes to extraordinary lengths to control its own population. Perhaps the most extreme example, xinjiang, where muslim uighur people have faced systematic repression. But the principal of authoritarian control runs much deeper. My guest today is wuer kaixi, a political dissident in exile, part of the 1989 tiananmen generation. He is himself a uighur. Has beijing effectively snuffed out the spirit of tiananmen . Wuer kaixi in taiwan, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you very much. Thank you for having me back. It is a pleasure to have you on the show. I think we must begin with what is happening in xinjiang, particularly to the uighur muslim communities in xinjiang. There is a rising level of International Condemnation at what the Chinese Government is doing. As you watch this situation very closely, do you see any sign china is modifying its policies . Small signs here and there, but not in the general picture. For instance, there is one country, turkey, being a Muslim Country and also, we share very common cultural and ethnic routes. The president of turkey has expressed his condemnation to china, perhaps one of the very few islamic country leaders who have done it. Because a large number of uighur live in turkey, it creates a tension domestically in the turkish politics. Therefore, the Chinese Government decided to calm turkey down by releasing some of the people in the camp who have relatives in turkey. Altogether, a few thousand perhaps. In comparison, we believe more than 1. 5 million uighurs in the concentration camp, that little change, without qualifier, your definition of changing the policy. I know you are one of the chairmen of one of the uighur campaigning groups that do so much work internationally. Of course, many people around the world know you because of your pro democracy and freedom activities in china in 1989, which led to your exile from the country after the tiananmen protests ended in bloodshed. You now feel yourself, and identify more as uighur than chinese . Well, im a born uighur and my parents are both uighurs. I spoke their language at home when i was born and raised in beijing. When you are a member of a Minority Group in a large, overwhelmingly marginalised group, you do actually have a stronger sense of your birth identity. Discrimination against uighurs in china is everywhere. Yes, i have a very strong sense of uighur, even back then when i was the leader of the chinese democracy movement. Democratizing china has no conflict or fighting for uighurs self identity rights. The 50 days of the 1989 Student Movement perhaps is the only 50 days that i felt absolutely no discrimination from my peers, from my classmates. It also gives us an interesting perspective that when you fight forfreedom, freedom kind of brings equality. When youre concentrating on the concept of freedom, you forget to discriminate other people based on their ethnics. Hang on. I have to interrupt you to point out that china isnt confronting activists fighting forfreedom. It is simply confronting what it calls the three evil forces of separatism, terrorism and extremism. China argues it conducts the policy across the country. It happens that the threat of extremism and separatism is at its greatest right now in xinjiang. If you keep trying to exploit weaker people from their self identity, they want to get independent, yes, but they see independence is one of the ways to preserve their identity, their culture, so the separatism, if there are any, and i do agree that there are separatism sentiments in the last 70 years, thats because of the Chinese Communist partys suppression. We would have, if Chinese Communist party had always treated us equally, we probably wouldnt have nearly this kind of sentiments, we were part of the empire, we were happy with that, we were quite content with that only when chinese came to rule weaker people, they dont want to just rule, they want to exploit us and that is unacceptable and that has led to the separatism. How satisfied are you with the International Response we have seen . The bbc has done a great deal of reporting based on leaked documentation and secretly filmed video on the truth of what has happened and xin chang. Recently we saw testimony from one detainee, who described he was among a whole group of people who were forced to wear leg shackles, a headset, and others have talked about voluntary schools that are in fact detention centres. We have seen the internment camps in terms of secret video. The International Community doesnt really seem to have done very much in response. Is that your view . As it is actually, id appreciate bbcs efforts and actually i appreciate british sentiment when it comes to this, that you do have a strong moral sense that you want to do something but at the same time, a media outfit like bbc also holding another stance that we need more evidence to report. Lets not forget, during world war ii, the whole world only discovered the existence of holocaustjust weeks before liberating berlin, so that happened, that went on for years without the world knowing. Isnt that a dangerous comparison . Because as soon as you make that comparison with the death camps where more than 6 Million People were exterminated, you are entering very dangerous territory. You may well be accused of massive, massive over exaggeration. This is also another fine character of your british people, including you, stephen, you do not want to go exaggeration, but the very idea, we dont want to go exaggerate, kind of limits you from reporting the truth, how can you ask that the suppressed people provide the evidence . All these moral standards have somehow contradicted each other, but im glad at the end the sense of reporting from the bbc has overcome and we also have two thank many ngo workers, people who risk their lives to provide that little evidence the world are seeing today but the fact is much more overwhelming than what the world is seeing. May be the number is not happening, but this is 21st century you are getting i Million People in concentration camp, it is something the world should feel outrage when they discover the existence of the holocaust. Injune of this year, donald trump was specifically asked why he hadnt enacted us treasury sanctions on Us Communist Party based on evidence emerging from xin chang about the treatment of the uighurs and he said we are in the middle of a major trade deal. What do you make of that . The last 30 years, the world is in a trade deal with china. United states is in a trade war, and Great Britain and europe and every other democratic country, free country, the whole world in the last 30 years, at the very least 30 years, decided to talk trade with china only, and then i called it, if i remember clearly, in your show last time when they appeared five years ago, eyes said, this is appeasement. Donald trump is a businessman who became a world leader, but at least from his perspective, and he is seeing this business deal, this trade deal is not benefiting america either. So the whole world maybe it is time to realise to get out of this trade deal and talk about some basic human rights. Isnt the truth that the space for political dissent in china has become vanishingly small. China now has a system of surveillance monitoring and control, far beyond singeing which makes it impossible that the so called spirit of tiananmen that you were a part of could ever be revived. Do you agree . The spirit is very much there, it has just been suppressed and even with the level of that suppression that you have just described, we still have people who are trying to stand up and challenge this regime, and we were hoping the world could stand on the right side but that trade deal has kind of made us, the spirit of tiananmen feeling awfully lonely and china and in the streets of hong kong. But may be, and i will put it bluntly, maybe you are out of touch . Im looking at the words of a fellow tiananmen activist who said recently, overseas movements have tried to encourage the dissidents inside china, but the chinese authorities are forcing Civil Society groups to cease operations. The government there has been successful in breaking our connection to many chinese dissidents. Is that your reality . Yes. First of all, i have been living in exile for over 30 years, now. Yes, i have been out of touch from china and out of touch of my parents, i havent seen my parents for 30 some years, because Chinese Government decided that they put us in this position. Morally, we should not be blamed for that. The information flow outside of china is much, much more free than that is in china, so if we are out of touch, i can guarantee you, i billion Chinese People, they are much more out of touch with the reality that we are. I just want to quote to you the words of a woman quoted in Time Magazine on this very question of whether Chinese People are deeply unhappy from the element of authoritarian control in their society. She was a shopkeeper she described the tb surveillance cameras both inside and outside her own business and she said this Chinese People dont care about privacy. Above all, we want security. For me, it is still not enough cameras. We want more. Again, they do not have an option of having more or less. Thats the thing. So whatever narrative you ask a Chinese People, you should bear that in mind. They are being forced into a position without any say. And so their opinion, i read an American Forum to say 85 or even higher numberfeel satisfied with their regime, it was a study conducted by an independent institution in the United States and they were shocked and asked me whats my reading of that. I said im pretty sure thats not accurate, because they describe it as the highest number in the world. I said because you havent had a chance to conduct a survey in north korea. If you do that, maybe north korea would be number one. So would that really give you a clear picture i mean, to interview Chinese People, north Korean People about their government . Thats a naive mistake the western world, free world and bbc shouldnt make. Let me ask you about hong kong. I know is freedom and democracy activist, you watch the situation there very closely and in the recent weeks you have seen the imposition of the new National Security law, and we have seen a number of arrests, including of high profile medial figures since the imposition of a National Security law. He is that there is any space left for dissent and for a pro democracy activism in hong kong. We spoke recently to Nathan Morcom of the young leader of the Pro Democracy Movement who has now gone into exile nathan law. Do you believe proactive as pro democracy activists will now face as much repression as in the rest of china . Yes, very much so. In that city 20 years ago belonged to the free world, then you lost the city to a totalitarian bloc, to the other side. Then the people in that city are fighting for survival. I think the united kingdom, we have learned several measures that your government has taken. They are somehow encouraging, but its a little late. We should have not trusted china from the very beginning. Thats the key. The world somehow decided from that trade deal, im sure thats where its come from, that chinese are that china is a benign country. We keep saying it is not, its not, but we are dissidents. We are automatically filtered out because we are dissidents. We cannot let me repeat what we have been telling the world and keep saying these days, that we told you so. The true character of the Chinese Communist party, chinese regime, is like they are greedy. They are not necessarily very sophisticated, smart, but they are extremely greedy and they only understand the one way to deal with them, is to submit to them. The world has somehow felt that engagement can change china, and engagement policy, the world has had in the last 30 yea rs, have world has had in the last 30 years, have changed the world, but not china. 50 its time to learn. Yes, the danger it seems to me, as you speak from taiwan, of the evils, as you see it, of the Chinese Communist party, and you encourage the International Community to, in your view, get real and impose tougher sanctions on china. The danger you face is that people inside your own home country of china will simply see you as somebody betraying the nation. Nationalism is a potent force inside china, and all of the words you give to me run counter to much of the popular nationalist sentiment inside the country. Its a completely blocked, controlled environment, and in that environment, and in that environment, people cant think with very few options. That can change so rapidly when it is liberated, when the free flow of information is liberated. And i have seen it here in taiwan, for instance. I have seen it in many liberated countries from totalitarian regimes to democracy. And that shouldnt be the main concern of the world, its not the main concern of mine. Id like you to address my specific point about nationalist sentiment. Im looking at some words from ambassador liu xiaoming who was on hardtalk recently. He said, look, people in china live better, happier, longer lives. We have achieved so much and people around the world should now understand china is not a country you can kick around. And many ordinary Chinese People feel that way, too, do they not . You can take that sentence out of the mouth of hitler in 1930. Shouldnt that give british people a more sense of alertness . Yes. But the Economic Development in china happened because of the technology development, the worlds direct investment, and they have been saying they were looted because of the revolution, not because of the communist party. The communist party gave a freer society from where . Theyre party gave a freer society from where . They re more party gave a freer society from where . Theyre more brutal cultural revolution. So should they be given credit for letting the worlds money flow into it . Im not asking the world to take a tougher stance, im asking the world to be more honest. Thats it. People will form their own judgements about your comparisons of the government in china with hitler. Hitler, yes. And fascists. They will make their ownjudgements on that. Fascists. They will make their own judgements on that. But im just wondering if youre running a risk here. You are sitting in taiwan, there are many older and younger, particularly from hong kong, dissidents, critics of the chinese regime, who have moved to taiwan. We have seen massive Chinese Military exercises in the taiwan straits of late and we know the Chinese Governments position, to quote president xijinping, is ultimately unification of the chinese mainland and thai wine is inevitable, do not see there is a prospect in the medium to long term that china may well move against taiwan, because increasingly it will see taiwan as a nest of opponents of the communist party . Absolutely. The danger is always there and if we consider china as one of the biggest threats to the worlds civilisation we are living in, thai wine is in the blast zone. And let us mark taiwan, let me use chinese taiwan, and the people that live on this island, when they breathe in and out, they know the air they are breathing in and out is called freedom and they earned it and they are determined to defend it. Again, this is what im saying. Taiwan deserves to be recognised as one of the greatest, most vivid democracies. Yet the dishonest world decides to exclude taiwan from the title of democracy. Why . Because china said so. China said they are going to reunify. That taiwan was i was pa rt reunify. That taiwan was i was part of china. Taiwan was never really always part of china. Taiwan has its own government, its own society. As i said, its a free society, too. And then you may lose this partner asa then you may lose this partner as a free country. And just like you have lost hong kong, you are losing hong kong, i hope it is not too late to salvage. Let me and with this question for you. You have been a pro democracy activist and a critic of beating very very long time. If you are honest with yourself today, look the relative strength, resolve and Strategic Vision of the United States, the so called leader of the free world, and then look at china, with its ambitions and Strategic Vision, which actually seems stronger right now . The very same sentiment can be used to describe the 19305. Can be used to describe the 1930s. Being a dissident, being a dissident in china for many yea rs, a dissident in china for many yea rs , we a dissident in china for many years, we just a dissident in china for many years, wejust urged a dissident in china for many years, we just urged the world, pushing china towards democracy is our responsibility, not yours, but please dont take the wrong side. But now im selling through your programme, and thank you very much for giving me this platform, to tell the world that the Chinese Government is a threat to the whole world. Its a threat to the very civilisation we are living in. And lets make that comparison. Diner and the world. And if the world cannot reunify against china like you wa nt to reunify against china like you want to say you have, what was the word . Peace or appeasement, thatisit the word . Peace or appeasement, that is it again. So its time for the world to really think from my perspective, and i have been saying i told you so. Please dont dismiss our boy simply because we are dissidents, and we may have a good point because we are dissidents our voice. Good point because we are dissidents our voice. We have to end there. Thank you very much forjoining me on hardtalk. My pleasure. Thank you very much. Hello there. Monday was another day of impressive cloudscapes across the uk, but big lumpy clouds like these tend to produce intense downpours and thunderstorms, and that is exactly what we saw. This is the radar picture. It shows that those showers and storms look quite extensive across england and wales. Some of them were heavy enough to give some localised flooding but equally a few spots fell between the showers and stayed completely dry. And tuesday is going to be a similar sort of day. Some slightly more persistent rain though across north wales and Northern England for a time, and generally quite a cloudy start across the north of the uk. For scotland, the skies should brighten. Well see some sunshine, but a scattering of heavy showers into the afternoon. These could give some localised flooding. Not quite as many showers further south at this stage, through the midlands, wales, east anglia, towards the south of england. But again where they do show up, they are likely to be heavy and thundery. Top temperatures between 18 23. Now, most of the showers will fade during tuesday evening, but into the early hours of wednesday, rain will swing its way in from the south west, and this signals the start of a very unsettled spell of weather. In fact, this is more of an autumnal weather chart than one youd expect to see during the summer. Low pressure firmly in charge. Thats going to bring some outbreaks of rain at times through the middle part of the week. But also, some very, very strong winds unusually strong winds for this time of year, and that could cause some disruption. Now on wednesday, its likely well see outbreaks of rain drifting northwards across much of england and wales, into Northern Ireland and perhaps southern scotland by the end of the afternoon, but the winds will be picking up all the while from the south west. Gusts of 40 mph or more for exposed coasts here. Temperatures on wednesday, well, no great shakes for the time of year 18 22. Now, it stays unsettled and very windy as you move out of wednesday into thursday. Low pressure still firmly in charge, various frontal systems swinging around the low, and quite a few white lines, isobars, on the chart. That shows that it will be windy. These are the wind gusts we can expect. It will be windy for all parts of the uk, but particularly for western coasts, where wind gusts are likely to get to 40 50 mph. Pretty unusual for this time of year. This is bbc news. Im sally bundock, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. The race for the white house gets underway in earnest, with the democratic partys virtual convention. In a keynote speech, the formerfirst lady, michelle 0bama, launched a scathing attack on donald trump. Whenever we look to this white house for some leadership or consolation or any semblance of steadiness what we get instead is chaos, division and a total and utter lack of empathy. 0pposition protesters in belarus have held a ninth night of protests against president alexander lu kashenko,
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