Now on bbc news, hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. In some countries, the coronavirus pandemic has enhanced unity and solidarity. In others, it has exposed deep fault lines. In india, its the poor Migrant Workers whove been hardest hit by the crisis, which has also seen heightened tensions between the hindu majority and the muslim minority. My guest today is the general secretary of the ruling hindu nationalist bjp party, ram madhav. Is Prime Minister modi stoking intercommunal tensions even in this time of National Emergency . Ram madhav in delhi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Let us begin with the coronavirus situation in your country. Officials in your government have proclaimed the success of your lockdown policy, have pointed to a relatively low number of deaths, but right now, we see the curve the infection rate curve in india seems to be rising, and rising alarmingly. Do you think your government has been complacent . We are 15 of the worlds population, yet if you look at the rate of the affected people in india, it is very low, and you are right, that there is some rise in numbers recently, but if you look at the period during the tightened lockdown, that was the first four weeks, it was strictly under control. As we relax the lockdown a little bit, there is a little rise in the cases, but it is very much limited to a few areas, it is contained in that sense. Yeah, thats what worries some of the scientists, epidemiologists in your country, that you are easing the lockdown very significantly in large parts of the country, while, to quote bhramar mukherjee, an epidemiologist at the university of michigan, who watches indias case very closely, he said, we see no flattening of the india curve. So why ease the lockdown so significantly now . Certain lockdown measures are very much in place even now. There are relaxations in terms of starting up some of the industries, etc, from economic, they have been allowed to restart. But let me tell you when we enforced the first lockdown, that was when we did not have enough preparation in terms of our healthcare facilities. But six to eight weeks down the line, we are fully prepared, i can tell you today we are ready with 900,000 beds, we have hospitals, everything ready, yet we are taking full precautions, we are quarantining people who are travelling to a few destinations, we have not lapsed in our precautions. Perhaps the worst worrying thing of all, mr madhav, about the indian situation is the extent to which your sudden dramatic lockdown all those weeks ago forced millions of your poorest people, Migrant Workers in the big cities to head for home. Arundhati roy, the famous indian writer, has written, the lockdown worked like a chemical experiment that suddenly illuminated many hidden things. The urban poor were driven out by employers and landlords, millions of impoverished, hungry, thirsty people, including the young, the old and the sick, were forced to attempt a long walk home. They are now home, the lucky ones who made it, and they are infecting other people in those parts of your country least able to deal with the pandemic. Oh, that is a pretty exaggerated statement, i tell you. You see the lockdown that was announced on the 24th and 25th at midnight. Was our decision taken at the right time . It was directed at safeguarding the healthcare of 1. 3 billion indians. That has certainly helped in managing this spread of the virus in a very significant way. Today i am claiming that it is now restricted to a few pockets in the country. That was essentially because of the timely lockdown. Now, as far as the Migrant Workers are concerned, let me give you some information before we decide about the impact of it. India has 130 million Migrant Workers. Out of that, about 80 million work in other states than their home state. It is bigger than the entire population of countries like germany, countries like the uk. That is the size of our migrant population. Out of that, majority of them i would say about 90 of them still stick to their places, they have not done, they have not undertaken this perilous journey, but, yes, you are right, about 4 million to 5 Million People have taken to the streets to try and reach their destination. Mr madhav, how do you feel about the members of your own party, the ruling party, the bjp, who have specifically, explicitly, blamed muslims for spreading coronavirus . Firstly, let me tell you in this fight against the virus, we, the 1. 3 billion people of india, are united and together. In all aspects of our parties, in aspects of all the differences. No, no, mrmadhav. Thats clearly not true, mr madhav. You are not united. It is wrong. We do not endorse it, nor do we ever support any such statement. So, what has happened to kapil mishra, a local bjp leader who is known for his intemperate language, who tweeted, and this is a quote, the Tablighi Jamaat people that is from the religious organisation who held a meeting, a big meeting in south delhi at the beginning of all this these people, he says, from the Tablighi Jamaat have begun spitting on doctors and other health workers. It is clear that the aim of these people is to infect as many people as possible with coronavirus and kill them. He has referred to coronavirus terrorists, and he means muslims. Yes, all such statements are wrong. We have condemned those statements, we have cautioned or warned such people, if they are indulging in any such statement. But i would just like to make one submission. Sometimes if some people talk about Tablighi Jamaat, please dont take it that they are talking about the entire muslim community. Within the muslim community, there is a large section of the people in india and elsewhere who do not approve of the Tablighi Jamaat behaviour in india. But that is no reflection on islamic society. No reflection. No, mr madhav, im sure youre aware, this goes far beyond. Make any such statement, it is wrong and we condemn it. Yeah, but mr madhav, what i want to know is what the bjp is doing to stop the communal violence that we have seen since the beginning of the coronavirus epidemic in your country. For example, sayed tabrez and his mother zareen taj, they are two muslim civilians who volunteered volunteered to distribute food and emergency aid in their communities, they were attacked by a gang of bjp activists on april 4 in karnataka. What have you done to punish those people who attacked the volunteers, and also, to ensure it never happens again . Certainly, any such act of violence will be punished, and if what you are saying is true, well certainly take action. But let me tell you for information in india, so many doctors were attacked, so many nurses were attacked, so many voluntary workers were attacked, police officers, their arms were chopped off, certain things have happened during the lockdown. Im not talking in terms of which religion has done it. Whoever does such things will be punished in india. We have such a system. We shall never approve of any such activities and we will extinguish them. So, what do you say to analysts who study your communal relations inside india very closely, like gilles verniers at the Ashoka University who say the government has seized the opportunity of the lockdown and the Coronavirus Crisis to go after muslim activists . Totally baseless. As far as we are concerned, the government is concerned in this fight, we are all together. You see the ratings of the Prime Minister by independent agencies cite his popularity to be about 90 . No, 90 is not the hindu population in india. That means everybody irrespective of their religion, supports the actions or the decisions that the government is taking because its in the interest of the entire population. In india, we do not approve of or we do not see any communal kind of situation or any communal conflict happening. Mr madhav, you seem to be living in a parallel universe to many indians, particular muslim indians. Are you not aware thatjust last month, the bjp mp Subramanian Swamy said, muslims, if they become anything like 30 of our population, will be a danger to the country. Muslims, he said, are not in an equal category. This is the language of pure discrimination, and it is coming from senior figures in your party. Ok, now, i have not directly seen that statement. I take it that what you are saying is true, but youll be careful if it is not true, you will be sued by Subramanian Swamy having said it, we do not as i said, we do not approve of any such sentiments, any such statements. It is a democratic country, people who make the statement, but other parties and other governments, we shall not approve of any such statements targeted at any community or any religion. But, again, ijust wonder on what basis youre telling me all this stuff about harmony and unity in india today are you not aware that the fallout from your own governments citizenship Amendment Act has included the office of the un high commissionerfor human rights calling that legislation, which, of course, is fundamental to your governments programme, called it, fundamentally discriminatory. First of all, a lot of misinformation and lack of knowledge about attacks is leading people to make all sorts ofjudgements. Let me tell you first of all, number one, the so called citizenship Amendment Act does not apply to a single indian. Do you know that . 1. 3 billion indians, muslims constitute 200 million out of that. The caa does in no way affect them. So, no discrimination. Secondly, and most importantly, it is not a full act. It is pure religious discrimination, mr madhav. In india, theres no discrimination. Your message to the world is that you value. In india. No, your message to the world is quite clear that you make a distinct category for muslim people, in this case, it is a question of people who come from neighbouring states into india, you give the rights to non muslims to a fast track citizenship, a right which you specifically and explicitly deny to muslims. Yes, just as austria has done to thejews, america has done to certain sections, vietnamese refugees, if i am not wrong, even spain has done to certainjews of the Second World War time, certain category of refugees, their citizenship has just been just fast tracked. Nobody is denied citizenship in india. If one qualifies, for example, i tell you, at least 15 close to 15 pakistani citizens have acquired indian citizenship under our government in the last five, six years. Mr madhav. Citizenship laws doesnt discriminate. Mr madhav, i dont want to misunderstand you or put words in your mouth, but when you start telling me about the way in which germany or austria treated the jews. Not germany i did not use the words germany. I begin to wonder what youre driving at. For example, i was very struck yesterday that your Prime Minister, mr modi, paid fulsome tribute to one of the great ideologues well, great in mr modis view, of the hindutva movement, which of course, your previous organisation, the rss, and your current party, the bjp, is very much a part of. Now, mr modi said of vd savarkar that he showed extraordinary courage and leadership. We know that mr savarkar, in 1939, was expressing sympathy for what the germans were doing to thejews and said that, 0ur muslims in india are very much like thejews of germany. There are many people around the world who find this sort of ideological connection and background to the bjp and the rss to be deeply and profoundly disturbing. You have totally misunderstood mr savarkars philosophy. He was never against any community. He was for the Greater Unity of all the indian citizens irrespective of religion. Thats the reason why even leaders like indira gandhi, the Congress Leader they also have praised his vision, his sacrifice for the nation. He was one leader who was given a 50 yearjail term by the british during the colonial rule in india. He fought for the independence. So, he is one of the misunderstood leaders in india, so you have to. You mean hes misunderstood because his sympathy for what the nazis were doing was ok . Is that what you are saying . No, he was not sympathetic to nazis at all. That is a great misinformation that is spread about him. Forgive me, but its notjust critics outside the country that are deeply disturbed by some of the ideology they hear from the rss and bjp. Listen to the words of Mahatma Gandhis great grandson, tushar gandhi, who spoke to us. He said, the bjp and the rss right wing groupings have polarised indian society, they present a grave danger. The danger is that in ten years time, this country wont be india anymore, it will be a fascist dictatorship. Those are the words of mr gandhis great grandson today. That could be his personal opinion. Mahatma gandhi himself had attended the rss rally. He had praised the discipline of the rss. He said that, the work i am doing for the uplift of the untouchables, the rss is doing the rss is removing the vast difference between this from society. I fully appreciate that it is what Mahatma Gandhi himself said. His grandsons are many some of the grandsons are in our party, for your information, the grandsons, they are in part of the bjp today, so dont go by one statement. There are different views. Thats why i said, india is a democracy with totally different views. They are their personal views. Just another point one more quote from you from ms golwalkar, another Senior Leader of your rss organisation. He wrote admiringly about what the nazis were doing in 1939. He said, to keep up the purity of the race and its culture, germany shocked the world by purging the country of the jews. It was National Pride at its highest, said mr golwalkar. Firstly, that book, a translation of the book, was disowned by mr golwalkar immediately. But second thing i tell you, he already said it was shocking i dont know how shocking becomes praise. He clearly said it was shocking to see this kind of behaviour in the name of nationalism. The rss has never, ever approved of the nazis, fascists or supremacists ideology. They have always sided with the persecuted jews. Even to this day, we believe that the persecution happened against thejews, but one of the worst crimes of the 20th century. Just one more thought on this, and then i want to move on if you are so sure there is not racism, deep discrimination, communal hate at the heart of your party and movements ideology, how do you react when your own home minister, amit shah, describes migrants from muslim majority bangladesh living in india as, termites who will be thrown into the bay of bengal. It is the classic technique of othering and dehumanising those that you regard as second class. How do you react to it yourself . Look, that particular statement was taken out of context. What was the right context . Hang on what is the right context . You tell me, mr madhav what is the right context for calling a human being a termite . Please explain to me, how can Illegal Migrants be persecuted on account of religion by definition . Illegal migrants are not welcome in india, towards that, we are taking certain measures. But that statement is taken out of context, which is not correct. You think that its justified to call, albeit an illegal muslim immigrant, a termite, an insect . In the context, a termite all these words are taken completely out of context thats what i am saying. What we did what we tried to do was to regulate the flow of refugees into india. It is done by every country, not just india. Every country that gets the influx of Illegal Migrants, that is essentially what we are doing. Not in a humanitarian spirit or anything. We have humanitarian sentiments about every person, but after all, nations have to to safeguard their people and livelihoods and economies from illegal immigrants. I want to briefly, if i may, before we finish, touch on kashmir. Last august, you revoked article 370 of the constitution, revoked the special status for kashmir. You sent thousands and thousands of troops into the territory and you arrested a large number of kashmiri political leaders. We interviewed shah faesal in india, not kashmir. He spoke to us, i believe, from delhi, not from kashmir. He was arrested just hours after talking to hardtalk. He is still in detention today. This month, his detention has been extended. He is a so called moderate leader, a civilian politician, a kashmiri who is proud to be kashmiri. Why on earth is he in detention today . Many people have been detained immediately after the important decision that we took on august 5 to nullify the impact of article 370. Now, most of them have been sent free. Mr faesal and a few others, four orfive of them, still face certain issues under what we call the psa Public Safety act, but i tell you, these are measures taken based on best information. But they will also be set free very soon. As i said, hundreds of activists have been set free. They are all free now. And mr. Faesal. There is no. Continue that happily. There is no justification for it, really, is there, mr madhav . Nor is there justification for the continued control of the internet 4g services severely restricted, when doctors in kashmir are saying that they need the best access possible to the internet and public and Health Information on the internet to deal with the Coronavirus Crisis, what kind of humanitarians are you in the Indian Government that wont even allow doctors to use the internet in kashmir . I am afraid you should check the reality before jumping in and accusing us of being inhuman and all that. Firstly, for doctors in our hospitals and in our medical centres, we have Broadband Services fully available. They are fully working in hospitals and all Public Institutions. It is only on the hand held mobile devices that certain 4g speed are not available. They have access to 2g speed. So calling it anti humanitarian, inhuman is far fetched. You should not do that. Having said that, the kashmiri healthcare establishment is doing a phenomenaljob. They are taking care of the Covid Patients effectively. They have all the facilities available. As i said, Broadband Services are fully available in every home and every Public Institution in kashmir, and the 4g service will be restored very soon. Right now because of coronavirus, your economy is facing contraction this year. You have rising tensions on your border, not just with pakistan, but also now with china, where you have got a military stand off in ladakh with Chinese Forces on the disputed border. Suddenly the bjps programme for india looks as though it is running into serious trouble. Would you agree . Economy is a challenge, notjust for india, for the uk and all of the countries. It is a global challenge. As far as india is concerned, we have allotted plans to quickly come out pandemic. Hopefully in two or three quarters time, we will come back to better gdp growth rates. Having said that, other issues, like the that are issues happening on the borders, are serious, no doubt, and the government is aware of these matters. Let me tell you, that is not the first time these things are happening. In the past also, we have had certain tensions on the Indo Tibetan Border with china, and we both committed our leaderships to tackle them. Diplomatically and on the ground, we have taken a firm stance, but we are practically engaged with the chinese leadership diplomatically. Ram madhav, we must end there, but i thank you forjoining me from delhi. Thank you. My pleasure. Hello there. On monday, the temperature reached 28 celsius, and it was the warmest day of the year so far in Northern Ireland. And whilst its going to be another very warm day for many today, the outlook is for it to turn much, much cooler. Whats happening . Well, weve been dominated by High Pressure for weeks now, which has brought us the warm and sunny weather. The high is retreating into the atlantic, and to the north of that weather front, there is much cooler air. That cooler air will get swept down across the whole of the country later this week as a northerly wind develops. There is likely to be some rain around as well. Now, early morning, weve got rain across the far north of scotland. Otherwise, its dry, clear, temperatures typically 8 11. And once any early mist and fog patches clear away from england and wales, its going to be another sunny, warm day for many places. But weve got rain in northern scotland, where its cooler, and we could see showers and cloud developing further south across scotland into the far north of england later, and also potentially in Northern Ireland. So here, temperatures will be 22 degrees. The highest temperatures are likely to be towards the south east of england, say, 27 in the london area. It wont be as windy as its been over the past few days also. So weve got cooler air heading ourway. Theres also going to be some rain in that cooler air, but it could prove rather hitand miss, and of course, there were large parts of the country that were extremely dry during may. And were uncertain as to how much rain there will be on wednesday across east anglia and the south east of england. It may be a bit wetter across other parts of england and into wales, and probably largely dry in Northern Ireland and the western side of scotland. But there will be a stronger northerly wind, which will make it feel cooler everywhere. Temperatures are continuing to drop away, probably peaking at 20 degrees in the south east. And those temperatures actually are near normal, really, for this time of the year. Given how warm its been, this is going to be a bit of a shock to the system. Move things on to thursday, and those temperatures fall even further, perhaps a few degrees below average for this time in june. And on thursday, therell be a lot of cloud around. It may not be quite as windy. At one stage, it looked like most of the showers will be in the north. Now, it looks like those showers are moving further south across england and wales. Wheres the High Pressure by the end of the week . Its here, well away from the uk. Were going to be dominated by low pressure, some stronger winds, some cooler air and still the potential of some showers on friday. This is bbc news. Im Sally Bundock with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. A stark warning from President Trump that he will deploy the army to end the widespread protests across the country triggered by the death in Police Custody of the unarmed african american, george floyd. If a city or a state refuses to take the actions that are necessary to defend the life and property of their residents, then i will deploy the United States military, and quickly solve the problem for them. In minneapolis, the official post mortem examination finds the death was a homicide. The victims brother tells demonstrators, violence would not bring the changes, the black
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