Known bbc news, its time for hardtalk dash now on bbc news. Welcome to hardtalk. Im stephen sackur. In some countries, the coronavirus pandemic has enhanced unity and solidarity. In others, it has exposed deep fault lines. In india, its the poor Migrant Workers whove been hardest hit by the crisis, which has also seen heightened tensions between the hindu majority and the muslim minority. My guest today is the general secretary of the ruling hindu nationalist bjp party, ram madhav. Is Prime Minister modi stoking intercommunal tensions even in this time of National Emergency . Ram madhav in delhi, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you. Let us begin with the coronavirus situation in your country. Officials in your government have proclaimed the success of your lockdown policy, have pointed to a relatively low number of deaths, but right now, we see the curve the infection rate curve in india seems to be rising, and rising alarmingly. Do you think your government has been complacent . We are 15 of the worlds population, yet if you look at the rate of the affected people in india, it is very low, and you are right, that there is some rise in numbers recently, but if you look at the period during the tightened lockdown, that was the first four weeks, it was strictly under control. As we relax the lockdown a little bit, there is a little rise in the cases, but it is very much limited to a few areas, it is contained in that sense. Yeah, thats what worries some of the scientists, epidemiologists in your country, that you are easing the lockdown very significantly in large parts of the country, while, to quote bhramar mukherjee, an epidemiologist at the university of michigan, who watches indias case very closely, he said, we see no flattening of the india curve. So why ease the lockdown so significantly now . Certain lockdown measures are very much in place even now. There are relaxations in terms of starting up some of the industries, etc, from economic, they have been allowed to restart. But let me tell you when we enforced the first lockdown, that was when we did not have enough preparation in terms of our healthcare facilities. But six to eight weeks down the line, we are fully prepared, i can tell you today we are ready with 900,000 beds, we have hospitals, everything ready, yet we are taking full precautions, we are quarantining people who are travelling to a few destinations, we have not lapsed in our precautions. Perhaps the worst worrying thing of all, mr madhav, about the indian situation is the extent to which your sudden dramatic lockdown all those weeks ago forced millions of your poorest people, Migrant Workers in the big cities to head for home. Arundhati roy, the famous indian writer, has written, the lockdown worked like a chemical experiment that suddenly illuminated many hidden things. The urban poor were driven out by employers and landlords, millions of impoverished, hungry, thirsty people, including the young, the old and the sick, were forced to attempt a long walk home. They are now home, the lucky ones who made it, and they are infecting other people in those parts of your country least able to deal with the pandemic. Oh, that is a pretty exaggerated statement, i tell you. You see the lockdown that was announced on the 2ath and 25th at midnight. Was our decision taken at the right time . It was directed at safeguarding the healthcare of 1. 3 billion indians. That has certainly helped in managing this spread of the virus in a very significant way. Today i am claiming that it is now restricted to a few pockets in the country. That was essentially because of the timely lockdown. Now, as far as the Migrant Workers are concerned, let me give you some information before we decide about the impact of it. India has 130 million Migrant Workers. Out of that, about 80 million work in other states than their home state. It is bigger than the entire population of countries like germany, countries like the uk. That is the size of our migrant population. Out of that, majority of them i would say about 90 of them still stick to their places, they have not done, they have not undertaken this perilous journey, but, yes, you are right, about a million to 5 Million People have taken to the streets to try and reach their destination. Mr madhav, how do you feel about the members of your own party, the ruling party, the bjp, who have specifically, explicitly, blamed muslims for spreading coronavirus . Firstly, let me tell you in this fight against the virus, we, the 1. 3 billion people of india, are united and together. In all aspects of our parties, in aspects of all the differences. No, no, mrmadhav. Thats clearly not true, mr madhav. You are not united. It is wrong. We do not endorse it, nor do we ever support any such statement. So, what has happened to kapil mishra, a local bjp leader who is known for his intemperate language, who tweeted, and this is a quote, the Tablighi Jamaat people that is from the religious organisation who held a meeting, a big meeting in south delhi at the beginning of all this these people, he says, from the Tablighi Jamaat have begun spitting on doctors and other health workers. It is clear that the aim of these people is to infect as many people as possible with coronavirus and kill them. He has referred to coronavirus terrorists, and he means muslims. Yes, all such statements are wrong. We have condemned those statements, we have cautioned or warned such people, if they are indulging in any such statement. But i would just like to make one submission. Sometimes if some people talk about Tablighi Jamaat, please dont take it that they are talking about the entire muslim community. Within the muslim community, there is a large section of the people in india and elsewhere who do not approve of the Tablighi Jamaat behaviour in india. But that is no reflection on islamic society. No reflection. No, mr madhav, im sure youre aware, this goes far beyond. Make any such statement, it is wrong and we condemn it. Yeah, but mr madhav, what i want to know is what the bjp is doing to stop the communal violence that we have seen since the beginning of the coronavirus epidemic in your country. For example, sayed tabrez and his mother zareen taj, they are two muslim civilians who volunteered volunteered to distribute food and emergency aid in their communities, they were attacked by a gang of bjp activists on april a in karnataka. What have you done to punish those people who attacked the volunteers, and also, to ensure it never happens again . Certainly, any such act of violence will be punished, and if what you are saying is true, well certainly take action. But let me tell you for information in india, so many doctors were attacked, so many nurses were attacked, so many voluntary workers were attacked, police officers, their arms were chopped off, certain things have happened during the lockdown. Im not talking in terms of which religion has done it. Whoever does such things will be punished in india. We have such a system. We shall never approve of any such activities and we will extinguish them. So, what do you say to analysts who study your communal relations inside india very closely, like gilles verniers at the Ashoka University who say the government has seized the opportunity of the lockdown and the Coronavirus Crisis to go after muslim activists . Totally baseless. As far as we are concerned, the government is concerned in this fight, we are all together. You see the ratings of the Prime Minister by independent agencies cite his popularity to be about 90 . No, 90 is not the hindu population in india. That means everybody irrespective of their religion, supports the actions or the decisions that the government is taking because its in the interest of the entire population. In india, we do not approve of or we do not see any communal kind of situation or any communal conflict happening. Mr madhav, you seem to be living in a parallel universe to many indians, particular muslim indians. Are you not aware thatjust last month, the bjp mp Subramanian Swamy said, muslims, if they become anything like 30 of our population, will be a danger to the country. Muslims, he said, are not in an equal category. This is the language of pure discrimination, and it is coming from senior figures in your party. Ok, now, i have not directly seen that statement. I take it that what you are saying is true, but youll be careful if it is not true, you will be sued by Subramanian Swamy having said it, we do not as i said, we do not approve of any such sentiments, any such statements. It is a democratic country, people who make the statement, but other parties and other governments, we shall not approve of any such statements targeted at any community or any religion. But, again, ijust wonder on what basis youre telling me all this stuff about harmony and unity in india today are you not aware that the fallout from your own governments citizenship Amendment Act has included the office of the un high commissionerfor human rights calling that legislation, which, of course, is fundamental to your governments programme, called it, fundamentally discriminatory. First of all, a lot of misinformation and lack of knowledge about attacks is leading people to make all sorts ofjudgements. Let me tell you first of all, number one, the citizenship Amendment Act does not apply to a single indian. Do you know that . 1. 3 billion indians, muslims constitute 200 million out of that. The caa does in no way affect them. So, no discrimination. Secondly, and most importantly, it is not a full act. It is pure religious discrimination, mr madhav. In india, theres no discrimination. Your message to the world is that you value. In india. No, your message to the world is quite clear that you make a distinct category for muslim people, in this case, it is a question of people who come from neighbouring states into india, you give the rights to non muslims to a fast track citizenship, a right which you specifically and explicitly deny to muslims. Yes, just as austria has done to thejews, america has done to certain sections, vietnamese refugees, if i am not wrong, even spain has done to certainjews of the Second World War time, certain category of refugees, their citizenship has just been just fast tracked. Nobody is denied citizenship in india. If one qualifies, for example, i tell you, at least 15 close to 15 pakistani citizens have acquired indian citizenship under our government in the last five, six years. Mr madhav. Citizenship laws doesnt discriminate. Mr madhav, i dont want to misunderstand you or put words in your mouth, but when you start telling me about the way in which germany or austria treated the jews. Not germany i did not use the words germany. I begin to wonder what youre driving at. For example, i was very struck yesterday that your Prime Minister, mr modi, paid fulsome tribute to one of the great ideologues well, great in mr modis view, of the hindutva movement, which of course, your previous organisation, the rss, and your current party, the bjp, is very much a part of. Now, mr modi said of vd savarkar that he showed extraordinary courage and leadership. We know that mr savarkar, in 1939, was expressing sympathy for what the germans were doing to thejews and said that, 0ur muslims in india are very much like thejews of germany. There are many people around the world who find this sort of ideological connection and background to the bjp and the rss to be deeply and profoundly disturbing. You have totally misunderstood mr savarkars philosophy. He was never against any community. He was for the Greater Unity of all the indian citizens irrespective of religion. Thats the reason why even leaders like indira gandhi, the Congress Leader they also have praised his vision, his sacrifice for the nation. He was one leader who was given a 50 yearjail term by the british during the colonial rule in india. He fought for the independence. So, he is one of the misunderstood leaders in india, so you have to. You mean hes misunderstood because his sympathy for what the nazis were doing was ok . Is that what you are saying . No, he was not sympathetic to nazis at all. That is a great misinformation that is spread about him. Forgive me, but its notjust critics outside the country that are deeply disturbed by some of the ideology they hear from the rss and bjp. Listen to the words of Mahatma Gandhis great grandson, tushar gandhi, who spoke to us. He said, the bjp and the rss right wing groupings have polarised indian society, they present a grave danger. The danger is that in ten years time, this country wont be india anymore, it will be a fascist dictatorship. Those are the words of mr gandhis great grandson today. That could be his personal opinion. Mahatma gandhi himself had attended the rss rally. He had praised the discipline of the rss. He said that, the work i am doing for the uplift of the untouchables, the rss is doing the rss is removing the vast difference between this from society. I fully appreciate that it is what Mahatma Gandhi himself said. His grandsons are many some of the grandsons are in our party, for your information, the grandsons, they are in part of the bjp today, so dont go by one statement. There are different views. Thats why as i said, india is a democracy with totally different views. They are their personal views. On another point, one more quote from you from ms golwalkar, another Senior Leader of your rss organisation. He wrote admiringly about what the nazis were doing in 1939. He said, quote, to keep up the purity of the race and its culture, germany shocked the world by purging the country of the jews. It was National Pride at its highest, said mr golwalkar. Firstly, that book, a translation of the book, was disowned by mr golwalkar immediately. Second thing i tell you, he already said it was shocking i dont know how shocking becomes praise. He said it was shocking to see this kind of behaviour in the name of nationalism. The rss has never, ever approved of the nazi fascists or of supremacist ideology. They have always sided with the persecuted jews. Even to this day we believe the persecution happened against the jewish people and was one of the worst crimes of the 20th century. One more thought on this, and then i want to move on. If you are so sure there is not racism, deep discrimination and communal hate at the heart of your party and movements ideology, how do you react when your own home minister, amit shah, describes migrants from muslim majority bangladesh living in india as, quote, termites who will be thrown into the bay of bengal. It is the classic technique of othering and dehumanising those that you regard as second class. How do you react to it yourself . That particular statement was taken out of context. What was the right context . Hang on what is the right context . You tell me, mr madhav, what is the right context for calling a human being a termite . Please tell me, how can Illegal Migrants be persecuted on account of religion by definition . Illegal migrants are not welcome in india, and towards that we are taking certain measures. But that statement is taken out of context, which is not correct. You think it is justified to call albeit an illegal muslim immigrant, a termite, an insect . In the context, a termite all these words are taken completely out of context thats what i am saying. What we tried to do was to regulate the flow of Illegal Migrants into india. It is done by every country, not just india. Every country that gets the influx of Illegal Migrants, that is essentially what we are doing. Not in a humanitarian spirit or anything. We have humanitarian sentiments about every person but nations have to safeguard their people and livelihoods from illegal immigrants. I want to briefly, if i may, before we finish, touch on kashmir. Last august you revoked article 370 from the constitution, revoked the special status for kashmir. You sent thousands and thousands of troops into the territory and you arrested a large number of kashmiri political leaders. We interviewed shah faesal in india, not kashmir. He spoke to us, i believe, from delhi, not from kashmir. He was arrested hours after talking to us. He is still in detention today. This month his detention has been extended. He is a so called moderate leader, a civilian politician, a kashmiri who is proud to be kashmiri. Why on earth is he in detention today . Many people have been detained immediately after the important decision that we took on the fifth of august to nullify the impact of article 370. Now, most of them have been sent free. Mr faesal and a few others, four orfive of them, still face certain issues under what we call the Public Safety act, but i tell you, these are measures taken based on best information. But they will be set free very soon. Hundreds of activists have been set free. They are all set free now. And mr, mr faesal. There is no. There is no justification for it, really, is there, mr madhav . Nor is there justification for the continued control of the internet ag services severely restricted, when doctors in kashmir say they need the best access possible to the internet and public and Health Information on the internet to deal with the Coronavirus Crisis. What kind of humanitarians are you in the Indian Government that wont even allow doctors to use the internet in kashmir . You should check the reality before jumping in and accusing us of being inhuman and all that. For doctors in our medical centres, we have Broadband Services fully available. They are fully working in hospitals and all Public Institutions. It is only on hand held mobile devices that certain ag speed is not available. They have 2g speed. So calling it inhuman is far fetched. You should not do that. Having said that, the kashmiri healthcare establishment is doing a phenomenaljob. They are taking care of the Covid Patients effectively. They have all the facilities available. Broadband services are fully available in every home and Public Institution in kashmir, and full service will be restored very soon. Right now because of coronavirus your economy is facing contraction this year. You have rising tensions on your border, notjust with pakistan but also now with china, where you have got a military stand off in ladakh with Chinese Forces on the disputed border. Suddenly the bjps programme for india looks as though it is running into serious trouble. Would you agree . The economy is a global challenge, not just for india for the uk. It is a global challenge. As far as india is concerned, we have allotted plans to come out and we have decisions to make. Hopefully in two or three quarters time we will come back to better gdp growth rates. Having said that, other issues, like the issues happening on the borders, are clearly not finished, and the government is aware of these matters. Let me tell you, that is not the first time these things are happening. In the past we have had certain tensions on the Indo Tibetan Border with china, and we have both committed our leaderships to tackle them. Diplomatically and on the ground, we have taken a firm stance, but we are practically engaged with the chinese leadership diplomatically. Mr madhav, we must end there, but i thank you forjoining me from delhi. Thank you. My pleasure. Hello again. Sunday was another very warm day nationwide, and capping off a very sunny weekend was a beautiful sunset to end the day in the herefordshire area. The top temperature was 28 degrees in porthmadog, making it waless hottest day of the year so far, and only three tenths from the highest temperature weve seen in the uk this year. At the moment weve got clear, starry skies out and about. A few mist and fog patches possible later on across coastal parts of scotland and north east england, but probably not too many of these. Temperatures first thing, eight to 13 degrees in towns and cities and cooler than that in the countryside first thing, but what you will notice early on monday is weve got plenty of sunshine. Into the afternoon, a bit of fair weather cloud popping up into the sky, so some sunny spells, the cloud not spoiling the sunshine at all, really, and another day when we will see the temperatures climbing widely into the low to mid 20s, probably peaking at around 27 celsius in some western areas. So more very warm and sunny weather on the way for monday. Looking at the weather charts for tuesday now, we have something of a change on the way. That change, as this cold front approaches northern scotland, bringing some thicker cloud here, and yes, outbreaks of rain on the way. I know some of you have wanted rain for a while. That rain will be accompanied by cool northerly winds, so temperatures for northern scotland significantly lower on tuesday with highs of 13 in stornoway. For Northern Ireland, southern scotland, england and wales, this is the last of the very warm days and plenty of sunshine again with temperatures widely low to mid 20s, but into the middle part of the week, its set to turn much cooler, and there is the prospect of seeing some rain. On wednesday, weve got a trough crossing the uk, bringing a mixture of rain and showers. As that moves through, the northerly winds that follow will be dragging on some much cooler air as we enter the week, so temperatures progressively will be dropping. Many areas will see outbreaks of rain. Closest to that area of low pressure the rain will be heaviest across parts of northern scotland, maybe Northern Ireland too. The amount of rain we see further south will vary from place to place but most places will see some rain towards the end of the week. Hello, this is bbc news, with the latest headlines for viewers in the uk and around the world. Fires burn in washington not far from the white house as protesters defy the latest curfew to demonstrate against police brutality. These are live pictures from washington, where the National Guard has been mobilized to support the police and to maintain the citys curfew. In minneapolis, where the protests began, there have been stand offs between activists and the police. In other news
comparemela.com © 2020. All Rights Reserved.