It is time for hardtalk. Welcome to hardtalk, im stephen sackur. Nigerias stability and unity is threatened by internal tension, conflict and corruption, from the boko haram insurgency in the north to violent militancy in the south and separatist aspirations in the east. Amid all this turmoil, how effective in securing the country is the Nigerian Army . My guest is army chief Lieutenant General tukur yusuf buratai. Are his forces playing a constructive or destructive role, as nigeria tries to keep a lid on its problems . General tukur yusuf buratai, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, stephen. General tukur yusuf buratai, welcome to hardtalk. Thank you, stephen. A couple of years ago your president , new president , set you a Clear Mission to eradicate boko haram. He said it could be done within months. It would be fair to say, would it not, that you have failed in that mission . We have not failed. We have achieved that particular mandate, as at that time. We were appointed on the 10th ofjuly. And on the day of our decoration, we were given that mandate to end boko haram by the end of december of 2015, and we set out to work. And. Yes, well, im going to stop you and try to make this as as simple as possible. As you say, by december 2015, there were claims coming from both the military and from the presidency that boko haram had been eliminated. But those claims, as we have seen over the last 18 months, were completely wrong. No, no. Eliminated i dont think anybody had said boko haram has been eliminated. We know terrorism globally is. Well, forgive me, i am looking at a direct quote. President buhari, december 2015, the insurgency has been technically defeated. So it doesnt mean eliminated. And a military official, we can beat our chest and decisively say we have dealt with boko haram. Yes. Well, come on, lets be clear. You havent dealt with boko haram. I dont know how many details i need to give you of recent incidents. Lets look at this perspective. Terrorism is something that, you know, is resilient, all right . Today, we have gained tremendously. Tremendous successes have been achieved. Take, for example, at the time we were appointed, take for example borno state. Where terrorism incidents is most boko haram terrorists. How Many Local Areas were under their control, where there are not any presence of Government Authority in that location . But it is notjust a question of how many square miles of territory that you have recovered. It is also a question of whether the people of that particular region of your country are still being terrorised. Ive just been looking at the figures. Just a couple of months ago, 18 girls were abducted from close to the cameroon border, the village of pulka. Newsweek magazine of nigeria has a calculator they think within the First Six Months of this year there were 48 different boko haram attacks. You may have taken a lot of territory back, but you havent managed to end the reign of terror. Well, look at what we have on the ground. Before may 2015, the boko haram were even in abuja, they were in kano, they had penetrated into the south. We had to stop them. And, for the past two years, we have not had attacks in abuja, or kano, or any other places. Even closer, where there were several attacks, we never had it. Now, they are all concentrated within certain areas in borno state. But the un agencies say that still the scale of the insecurity is such that the displaced peoples cannot come back. We know that the real threat of hunger, malnutrition and famine exists, and insecurity is a huge part of that. So you as the head of the army still, surely, have to accept that, far from being complete, your mission has barely begun. Well, that is where we now look at the reconstruction aspect. And we have to see the return of the civil administration, the return of the Law And Order agencies, the police, alright . And this is what we are working at. If you talk in terms of military action, military action, militarily, boko haram have been defeated. One of the elements of restoring stability, peace and order to the region most affected by boko haram is winning the trust of the ordinary people. Yes. How can the local people be confident when, as Amnesty International reported in their most recent report, in february this year, the military is arbitrarily arresting thousands of young men, women and children, based simply on profiling, they say. They are being put into Detention Facilities like the giwa barracks in maiduguri. Im quoting amnesty forgive me, but it is quite long. The cells were overcrowded. Diseases, dehydration and starvation was rife. At least 240 detainees died during the last year. Bodies were secretly buried in maiduguris cemetery by the borno state Environmental Protection agency. That is a scandal. It is shocking, and how can you possibly defend it . Well, it is interesting. But let me tell you, we have been vindicated. The special inquiry that was set up, you know, by the army, headed by independent personality ahmed jibrin, a retired major general, has clearly stated that whatever comes out of you know, within the Detention Facilities, these are things that are likely to are bound to happen everywhere. And you look at. Now, with this outbreak of diseases. The Board Of Inquiry was headed up by a retired general. President buhari promised many months ago that there would be an independent investigation. There has been no independent investigation. Well, this is still in the process. It is a promise, i believe it will be kept. Why has there not been an independent investigation . I cannot give that reason. But, if you want the confidence of the people of borno state, and the other parts of your country, surely the most basic thing is to hold your own forces to account. We are holding them accountable. We have a standing as far as the Military Operations are concerned, we have a Standing Court martial which is responsible for trying any of our officers that have been found wanting in following the military justice system. And some of them have been, you know, convicted of the violation of some other crimes. Amnesty named nine individuals, officers, who they say should face the most Serious Investigation and criminal indictment. How many of those nine are still serving today in yourforces . Well, i dont know of any of those nine, precisely. Is the answer that all of them are still serving . You havent actually removed any of them. The point is, as far as we are concerned, we have stated the case against them, alright . And the inquiry has done its work and found out that those were not directly linked. The internal investigation, but to be honest i am less interested in your internal investigation than i am interested in the external investigation, which has not happened. That the allegations have not been substantiated. Those are mere allegations, and they have not been substantiated. They were told to the officers. Let me ask you your reaction to a reportjust issued by the United States government which says that there is evidence, this is in their trafficking in persons report, that they put out every year, evidence that the Nigerian Army has been exploiting children, quote, using children as young as 12 years old in support roles. Is that true . Well, it is not true. If you ask me directly, in my personal capacity. Well, i am asking you as head of the army, not in your personal capacity. Ok, you see, there are complications in such issues. How do you determine a child who is 12 years . I am not saying we are employing a child to be used as, you know, in civilian duties. You should simply not be employing children. We are not. I am saying, we are not, alright, we are not. But the United States says you are. I could go on, there are more. The Nigerian Security force has continued to detain and arrest children for alleged association with boko haram. So not only are you employing children in support roles, which the us says is completely wrong, you are also consistently and systematically detaining and arresting children. You see, there are clear lines, ok . We have what we refer to the International Humanitarian law, the law of armed conflicts, ok . We very much know these rules, the best international practices. There is no way the Nigerian Army will pick a child and get him employed and serve anywhere. This is an allegation. Yes, the United States is a partner and an ally. But they, during the obama administration, stopped selling new weapons because of all of these allegations of abuses by your Security Forces. Does it not trouble you. In the same Amnesty International report that they are relying on, in the same amnesty report, they made a recommendation to the obama administration, that certain weapons and so on should not be sold to the nigerian government. But you see, when you talk of terrorism, its a responsibility at a global level. Every nation should be responsible to see that this terrorism is defeated globally. So if you. Let me ask you, if i may i have dealt with some of the allegations of abuses against your forces. There is one particular story which grabbed attention, a huge amount of sympathy over time. 2013, the Chibok School was raided by boko haram militants. They took away more than 200 schoolgirls. Ever since, there has been a huge focus on getting those girls back. Now, in the recent past we saw, i believe, 82 were freed. First of all, what deal did you do to get those 82 girls back . As far as the release of those 82 chibok girls are concerned, we performed our role, where we provided the safe passage, you know, for those that have been released. Did you release boko haram militants in return . I did not release, but the government. It is a government decision, it is not an army responsibility. Were you aware that five senior militants, boko haram fighters, were released from prison . That is the report, ok . That is the report. As a military man, what message do you believe that sends to boko haram . That is a military decision, not a political decision. In the best interests of the country, did the government fail, yes. That is the best course. Do you think it was regrettable . Personally, i dont think. It has its own advantage. There are probably some other side, disadvantages but it has itws own advantages. The message is quite clear to the boko haram leadership, that if they can take more schoolgirls, more innocent civilians and demand in return for their release, the release of people in your prisons. That is, if they are given the chance to do that, that is if they are given the chance. I dont believe they would have that chance to have mass abductions as they were doing before. Let us talk about one other region where there has long been instability. That is the niger delta. Over many years we have seen militants loosely coalesced around a group called mind. Demanding money, causing real instability. There was a Government Programme to buy off some of those militant leaders. I think its cost the government well ever 100 million in various forms of financial recompense to some of the militants themselves. It hasnt worked, has it . Well, it has workd, i believe it has worked. Why did Oil Production fall by a third in 2016 . That is criminal activities by certain individuals. The same sorts of attacks on Oil Installations that were supposed to be ended by all of this compensation money. Well, um, that is why you still have a lot of criminal activities going on, not only in the niger delta but other parts of the country. That is my point for all of your assurances, both you as a military man, assurances that you are on top of the Security Situation in your country, the truth on the ground is that you are not. We are, we are, we are in firm control. Security, when you look at it, globally, this is something that you continue to tackle as they arise. You continue to tackle. You cannot wake up overnight and wish that all Security Challenges are gone and even here in the uk, other parts of the world will continue to have these challenges. Go to the middle east, other parts of europe and so on, you have all those challenges. So we continue to face these threats and address them as they arise. I talked, from the beginning of this interview, about the degree of trust and confidence nigerians have in the military on the ground and weve talked about different regions and youve tried to assure me that your men are doing the best in difficult circumstances but one of the overarching problems nigeria faces, and i imagine you would agree with me, is corruption. A recent report from Transparency International says that Nigerian Military officers, as well as politicians, have been enriching themselves by diverting money that was supposed to go to the Security Forces fight against terror. This is, you know very well, some cases are already in court. Some are still being investigated. So i think the courts will handle them appropriately and the investigating agencies will also go for that, investigate as much as possible. For you, as head of the army, how can you tolerate the fact that still, today, according to Transparency International, there are Ghost Soldiers on your payroll who are being fictitiously created by Senior Officers while pocketing their salaries. Its not true. Since the advent of this administration, they have introduced what they call an integrated personnel pay system, ipps, and also we have made our payrolls computerised. Everybody with this biometrics, weve done that long ago, around 2013, yeah, started in 2013. In the army, in particular. Military pay in nigeria is not that high, is it . Its relative also. In us dollar terms, roughly what do you earn . And i ask this in the spirit of transparency because mr buhari and other politicians have said. I am paid by the government, they pay the officers and soldiers, so the right question should go to the government. But you are public official on a salary. Yes. So how come then that you yourself own to substantial properties in dubai . Its not true, these are all fake, its not true. They are in the name of your wife but they are your family properties. It is not true, its not true. Whats not true about it . Listen, listen, substantial property. What is substantial property . This isjust an investment. Its not true. As i understand it, in dubai, that are worth well over us 1 million. Its not true, its not true. How much are they worth then . Because the anti corru Ption Campaigner in your country, femi falanam says it is an outrage that you have got these properties. He says there is no way you could have bought these assets from your salary, so nigerians want to know where you get the money . It is a stereotype. My family is into other businesses, ok . And they do their own private businesses. They should afford to investi. Timeshare property investement. My family has not even entered those properties. On the frontline, there soldiers working for you, you are the commander of the Nigerian Army. They are on pitiful wages and according to various different independent analyses, not least from the United States, they are very poorly resourced and poorly armed in the fight against boko haram. I wonder how would they feel learning that you and your family own these properties in dubai . What property, which type of property . You know very well. The Code Of Conduct bureau actually ran an investigation into your properties and, in the end, they said it was ok, you declared the assets but dont tell me you dont know about them. The type of property we are talking of is not the one that you think, is what, that most people are saying. Its not a house. Its a timeshared property that you invest ino. The question remains, how do you think your guys on the front line, who are poorly resourced. . When was it, you know, bought into, those properties . Its your property, you tell me. As far back as 2013. I never dreamt i would become chief of army staff. People are using these properties today. At the time, i was appointed, to be clear, when the human rights lawyer, femi falana, says that you should resign because your explanation of where you got the money from, to quote him, is a cock and bull story. Its my family, its my family. Alright. Final question for you. We have catalogued the different challenges your Security Forces face and indeed your political leadership. One of the problems today is that your president is very seriously ill. I believe he is still here in london although the nigerian people seem very confused about where he is and what his condition is. Can you as head of the army tell me what is going on . This is a private issue for the president. I dont have any comment on that. But earlier this year, you did warn anyone, either in the military or anywhere else, who was thinking of using this period of instability to sort of Launch A Leadership Bid or play politics within the military. You warned them off it. So you are clearly worried that there is, at the moment, a bit of a vacuum at the top. There is no vacuum. Its sort of an empty warning. In terms of what transpired just before this administration came on board. Why did you issue that warning . Did you sense there were some in the armed forces who might be pursuing political ambitions . Its good once in a while to, based on o