the recent release of saif al—islam gaddafi by the bolivian group holding him has led to the international criminal court in the hague, the icc, demanding his arrest. he's been indicted by the court for alleged crimes against humanity, murder and persecution. the icc was set up in 2002 as a court of last resort to try such individuals, but it's met a barrage of criticisms — principally that it has an anti—african bias because only africans have been convicted and nearly all the cases before it are from the continent. my guest is the prosecutor of the icc, fatou bensouda, a lawyer from gambia. what does she say in the court's defence? fatou bensouda, welcome to hardtalk. thank you for having me. you were born in gambia to a muslim family. you studied law in nigeria. then you returned to gambia in 1987 to work as a public prosecutor. why did you want to go into law? i believe it is this, you know, sense of right and wrong, and justice — that's something which isjust in me. and the fact that i also grew up in a community where you really see that there are some people, maybe the vulnerable in society, as we call women, children, who actually do not receive the protective embrace of the law. and i was exposed in a community where i have seen this, where i have seen especially women undergo domestic violence. and nowhere to turn to. because the parents always tell them that it is the right of the husband, for instance. if you go to the police, they will say it's a civil matter and that they cannot interfere. and i had the opportunity also to serve as a clerk of court in the high court of the gambia, and this again exposed me to some of the horrors that befell these women — domestic violence. and ijust made up my mind at a very early age that this is something i want to contribute to. somebody who has known you since school days, amie bensouda — no relative — says of you, the area of law that fatou is most comfortable with is prosecution. why not defence? because defending somebody is also a very honourable tradition, isn't it? indeed. indeed, it's very honourable, and i always say that the prosecutor will only be as good as the defence. and it's very important that anybody, everybody should be defended before the courts. but also, so should the victims. prosecuting, in a way, is standing up for the victims. 0k, another thing about the international criminal court, it's not really worthy of the name international, is it? it's not international. it is international. and, look — if you look at the idea of the international community in setting up the court, an international criminal court, for a long time, it culminated in 1998, when the rome statute was actually signed. this is the idea that the international community... i tell you why i said that, though. some of the most significant members of the international community — china, russia, the united states — three of the five permanent members of the un security council — are not part of the icc. big countries — india, pakistan, indonesia — also not members. indeed, but there is also a large majority of the world community that are now enjoying the protection of international criminaljustice and the international criminal court. because if you look at today, the international criminal court enjoys 124 states that are parties to the rome statute and part of the icc. and also, potentially, the icc could have a universal reach in the sense that we, as a court, can intervene in situations where the crimes are committed on the territory of a state party by whomsoever commits the crime, whether you are a state party or not, and the nationals of states where they commit crimes, wherever they also go to commit this crime, we havejurisdiction. so the remit of the icc could potentially be universal in the sense that we are looking at crime even in states that are not parties to the rome statute, because there are allegations of these crimes. that's your remit as well. indeed. but the fact of the matter is that your reach seems to have only gone as far as africa, because of the ii situations in varying degrees of progress — whether they are the six cases before you or preliminary investigations — all but one, georgia, are african. indeed, this is true. i know you have heard this criticism before but, as an african, you have to have a reasonable answer. no, but this criticism, unfortunately, is misplaced, and it is not backed by relevant facts. i'm saying this because if you look at the situations that we are investigating now in africa, a majority of those situations have been at the request of the african states themselves, who have requested the icc to intervene because they are state parties. and the system that the icc has set up is that in the event that these crimes — war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide — are committed on the territory of a state party, the state party can actually request. so that's one answer you are giving is that the african countries themselves said, "icc, we want you to look at this case." but it seems however, prosecutor, that some of them are having buyer's remorse, these state members. i give you one example — yoweri museveni, the president of uganda, who stood shoulder to shoulder with your predecessor, luis moreno 0campo, saying we want members, the leaders of the lord's resistance army, joseph kony and all the other people who have been taking part in these awful atrocities in uganda, to go through the icc. what does yoweri museveni say last october? even though he brought the case, he says "the icc is useless, a politicisation ofjustice and nothing more than a western tool designed to humiliate african nations." again, i come to the same response. that this is not backed by the relevant facts. if you look at uganda, for instance, just take the example — the fact that uganda was one of the first countries to refer a situation to the icc, and we started our investigations, one of our first investigations was in uganda. five people have been charged in this situation in uganda. we have been working until now. most recently, the case of dominic 0ngwen has been started at the icc, because dominic 0ngwen has surrendered. from the democratic republic of congo. dominic 0ngwen is one of the commanders of the lord's resistance army, and he has been tried from the very beginning with the commission of these crimes. he now faces trial at the icc. he's from uganda. and of course, this requires that we need a lot of cooperation from uganda. you mention dominic 0ngwen, and i'lljust bring this up — that he was taken as a child soldier at the age of ten, so therefore, is it really right to try somebody who has obviously suffered himself? he is a victim. can he now be the perpetrator of evil? we obviously recognise that. we recognise the fact that, as the defence claims also, dominic 0ngwen was abducted when he was below the age, and we recognise that. if you look at our charges to date that we have brought before dominic 0ngwen, it is those charges which he committed as an adult. because under the icc, any crime committed by a person below the age of 18 cannot be tried before the icc. so all the crimes that we've charged dominic 0ngwen, that he is alleged to have committed... 0k, only as an adult. as an adult. with all respect to you though, prosecutor, dominic 0ngwen, yes, i've heard of him, a lot of people have and he's before you, but people say, what about the household names we all know about who are allegedly carrying out these terrible injustices and crimes against humanity — the so—called islamic state, president bashar al—assad of syria? we know that there was a terrible civil war going on in sri lanka. y0u know, and then you find somebody like dominic 0ngwen and you say, "yes, we've got him," but what about these other names that everybody‘s heard of? why aren't they before you? in the first instance, dominic 0ngwen maybe today is not a household name because we are talking about crimes that have been committed over ten years ago, but it's all also a matter ofjurisdiction, where we have jurisdiction, where the icc can intervene and where it cannot. if we talk about syria today, syria is not a state party to the rome statute. it doesn't matter. i mean, you've got countries where they are not members, like the sudan and the president of sudan, 0mar al—bashir, has been indicted. because, i say syria, because people are saying that there is selective justice. in 2014, 65 nations called for the syrian conflict to be referred to the court, and it was vetoed. let me just come back to the fact that the un security council referred the sudan case to the icc. 0k, can you deal with first of all why we don't have bashar al—assad, for example, indicted? i just want to clarify the fact, indeed, sudan is not a state party to the rome statute, and ordinarily, we don't have territorial jurisdiction, but sudan was referred to the icc in one of the ways that can be done — through the security council. but why wasn't bashar al—assad, when 65 nations called for the syrian conflict to be referred to the court, it was vetoed, wasn't it, by china and russia? indeed. this is a question that i think would ideally be asked of the un security council. but itjust shows you that there is selective justice, and you are part of that framework. i mean, so, were you upset that syria wasn't referred ? no, i beg to differ that we are part of that process. the fact of the matter is, even though the un security council, under the rome statute, can refer cases to the icc, but when these cases come, we subject them to the same test as we do by making sure that crimes have been committed, there are allegations about crimes, and that all the legal requirements are met for us to open an investigation. are you suggesting that president bashar al—assad's forces have not been guilty of atrocities? this is far from what i'm saying. what i'm saying is, even if a case is referred by the un security council, as sudan has been done, and libya, we subject them to the same tests and see that legal requirements under the rome statute are met. in the case of bashar al—assad, let me be clear — we do not go to the un security council to request for any case to be referred to the icc. it is the un security council that has been mandated under the rome statute, and also acting under chapter 7, that can take the decision. but you have a say, you can present a case to the security council. you can present evidence or you can say, "yes, we would approve of this" or not. i mean, have you done that? no, because, under the rome statute, this is not my mandate. i can only — when a case has already been referred to the icc, then i can make periodical reports to update the un security council on where we are. all right. and what about allegations of torture by us personnel at bagram air base in afghanistan? afghanistan is one of the signatory states to the rome statute and it is member of the icc. would you open formal investigations, for instance? just to be clear, afghanistan is a state party to the rome statute, as signed and ratified, and afghanistan is one of those situations that have been under preliminary examination for some time now before my office. including allegations against us personnel? and we are looking at allegations of all parties who form part of all the warring factions that are in afghanistan. but can i tell you what professor kevin heller from london university's school of oriental and african studies says "the reason this hasn't been opened about us personnel as a formal the united states. " —— investigation is that fatou bensouda cannot antagonise the united states. " is there any truth in that? i just want to be clear. my mandate requires me to be impartial and independent and all of the situations that i am looking at, i have to demonstrate — and i do demonstrate — that i'm acting with the utmost impartiality and independence. i'm following the evidence and the law and what my mandate requires me to do. in the case of afghanistan, as i mentioned to you last year, i took out an activities report, which is something that i'd take out every year, to update people on situations that are under preliminary investigation. and i did say in that report there was reasonable basis to believe that the warring factions in afghanistan — including the taliban, including the afghan forces as well as the us forces — there are allegations of commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and that my office is continuing to look into this situation. we are at a situation where we have not completed. we are currently looking at issues of admissibility, and this is a requirement that i have to go through as prosecutor, and that's where i am. to say that fatou bensouda will not do that or will not do another because of political considerations does not arrive for me. what about saif al—islam gaddafi? you've asked the libyan government, the authorities to hand him over to you. what have they said? saif al—islam gaddafi is one of those that we have already, that has been indicted by the icc on the request of the prosecutor, and there have been difficulties of getting into the icc. he's at large but in hiding. yes, we have received information recently that he has been released, and i have made a statement requesting for saif al—islam gaddafi to be surrendered to the icc. i have also recently met and i'm making various efforts, including meeting with the prime minister of libya, prime minister sarraj, to request for cooperation and to ask that saif al—islam gaddafi be surrendered to the court to face justice. what promises did he make about saif al—islam gaddafi? when might he had him over? he has to be apprehended, because he's not in the custody of the libyan government at the moment, at least the recognised government. what prime minister sarraj has promised is that there will be cooperation, a very good level of cooperation on the libya situation generally, broadly speaking, and of course efforts will be made to look specifically into this transfer and surrender of saif al—islam gaddafi. as i said, he is one of the cases that you are looking at, libya, obviously in africa, and i have to put it to you that the african union, as you know, said not so long ago that the international criminal court is basically an instrument of race hunting. does it distress you as an african that you hear this kind of criticism? it's very unfortunate, really. this is a court that has enjoyed african support from the very beginning. the establishment of the icc, really, africa has played a big role, and those who negotiated the treaty will tell you this. secondly, even if you look at 2010, for instance, when we were looking at the icc statute itself again, and looking at whether there is a need to replace anything or to renew, it was in uganda that we had that. secondly, the president, the current president of the icc assembly of states parties, sidiki kaba, is a minister of justice in senegal. senegal was the first state to have ratified the rome statute. today, the largest block of states in any region is the african bloc. but senegal also tried hissene habre, the former president of chad, and that regionaljustice, that somebody should be tried in the continent where they actually committed the atrocities and victims and witnesses can all be brought, instead of hauling them all the way over to the hague. this is good. just to have a trial, i believe this is good. and i think it should be known firstly that icc does not even have jurisdiction over the habre case, because it occurred before the icc came into existence. but even there, we have applauded the efforts that have been made at the level of senegal, but also at the level of the african union that a head of state who has committed these atrocities over his people should no longer go. so you see that case of hissene habre, the former president of chad, is a good one. indeed. because you are the court of last resort, you always make that clear. nevertheless, i put to you that mark malloch brown, who was deputy secretary general under kofi annan, said a year ago, the icc has put itself on the wrong side of a pr and political campaign in africa. you do accept that it's a bit of a pr disaster for you. you see, one of the first things that i've always said, one of the problems that i see that the icc is confronting with all this pushback is a question of really understanding the court, knowing what the court can do and what it can't do. what is the jurisdiction of the court where it can intervene and where it cannot intervene? unfortunately, we do have our core business to conduct, which is to investigate and prosecute, but also we have made efforts to explain to the court, whether it's in seminars or bilaterals, various efforts to explain what the court is about. but there are critics of the court. there is pushback against the court. and these have a whole machinery that they use to discredit the court. but it's not just about discrediting. isn't that unfair to your critics? for example, laurent gbagbo, the former president of ivory coast, who is one of the cases before you, and you are being urged by lots of influential people on the continent, former african presidents and so on, to say, look, drop the case against laurent gbagbo because, if found guilty, the country could reignite and civil war could return to ivory coast. basically, there's an argument there which is saying, please, don't necessarily put justice above everything else. peace and stability is important. i believe we are very sensitive to that, and we have demonstrated it time and time again, to show that it's this debate of peace and justice. let's sequence justice. let's do peace and then we dojustice. i think we should bring back ourselves to a position where we know that peace and justice are not mutually exclusive. they can actually work together. this has been tested. i tell you what thabo mbeki, former president of south africa, says about the gbagbo case and 0mar al—bashir and so on, "the challenge that arises is when someone says "that the issue of justice trumps the issue of peace. "while not dismissing the need to tackle impunity, "temporary immunity should be granted for key actors in order "to secure their engagement in peace." again, i come back to this... do you see the point? i definitely see the point that he is trying to make. but i also think it is important for those who are negotiating for peace to also understand that justice is equally important. we have seen time and time again when we have tried to putjustice away and only deal with peace, just to find out that there is a recurrence. there is a cycle of violence and it comes again. i think it was kofi annan who said that there is no peace without justice. justice is important. it's important. have you achieved that with the icc? i know you've only been in position since 2012 but, in 15 years of the icc‘s existence, it has cost $1 billion and there have been four convictions. that's very expensive, slowjustice. first of all, i want to say that, when you compare justice, as you call it, being expensive, when you compare that to the suffering of victims, and you compare that to conflicts, you compare that to the budget that is given, for instance, for defence, i think that justice is very small, when you compare all of these. that's not even the issue. the issue here is the impact that the court has had so far. what is the shadow of the court? what has the court been able to do? i want to ask you that, the final question, because you are very interested in women and children and the terrible things they have to go through in conflict, rape as a tool of war and so on. have you made them any safer? have the icc made them any safer? i believe the icc have made it safer by, first and foremost, highlighting the issue of the vulnerability of both women and children during conflict. we do know, and conflict has shown us time and time over, we know that they are the most vulnerable in a time of conflict, and we have seen horrible crimes, sexual and gender—based crimes, being made against women, against girls, against boys and against men. so what i did, one of the first priorities i set for my office was to say that i'm going to highlight this crime. i'm going to lend significance to this crime, and also to make sure that i have a clear and a very transparent policy on how we are going to investigate these crimes, how we are going to lend focus to it, how we are going to integrate it in all aspects of our work. and also, perhaps, be able to get states themselves at the national, domestic level to take example of what we have done. this policy, of course, is now out. i think it's something that we can be very proud of. also, talking about children, i've made a policy on children, not only those forced to carry arms, not only those children, but those who are also affected by conflict. so that policy is also out there. fatou bensouda, thank you very much indeed for coming on hardtalk. thank you for having me. hello. the weekend was something of a mixed bag across the greater part of scotland and northern ireland, but once we get into england and wales, well, at times it really did look as glorious as that. now, can we keep it up for the next few days? well, there will be some sunshine in the forecast. but, as early as tuesday, some areas will be seeing some significant rainfall, and then later in the week it will turn a wee bit hot and humid from the south. now, as i say, the weekend was something of a mixed bag, especially so in the western side of scotland, and into the first part of monday, i think we'll find some of those conditions slumping into the western side of england, through wales, too. not a cold start here, 14—15, but with clearer skies across scotland and northern ireland, some of the temperatures may even be getting close to single figures. but, under the influence of that front, it'll be a damp old start across parts of the south—west, coming up into parts of wales. further east, enough cloud for there to be the odd spot of rain, not amounting to very much at all. many of you will start the new day dry, and bright too for scotland and northern ireland. what an improvement on the dayjust gone. still, a speckling of showers, if not longer spells of rain, getting up towards shetland and through the north end of the 0rkney isles. but as we get on through the morning, into the afternoon, so some of that rain willjust tend to fade away across the far south—west, and indeed in the far north—east. we mayjust pep up one or two sharp showers through the east midlands, east anglia, maybe down into the south—east. just a chance of one or two of those getting down towards the wimbledon area as we turn on the heat. elsewhere, 16 to about 19 or 20 covers it. then, as we push that frontal system away, it rather links back, in fact, to a new development for tuesday out in the atlantic. now, i say tuesday, but as early as monday evening i think we'll see the first signs of that rain just beginning to pile its way into northern ireland, and then extending its influence into the southern parts of scotland, the north of england, and by tuesday afternoon some of that rain mayjust be getting down towards anglesey and on towards the northern shores of wales. to the south of it, i think there will be, with some sunshine, a little bit of heat. 2a, 25 degrees further north. despite the sunshine, 13—16 will probablyjust about cover it. out of tuesday and on into wednesday, so those fronts will have quit the scene. although there'll be a legacy of cloud across the borders area of scotland, the far north of england, to the south of that, the heat will be beginning to build up, feeling really quite close and humid. and that mayjust spawn one or two thundery showers as we get on through thursday. a little bit of uncertainty about this, but i think generally those temperatures are on the up by midweek. this is bbc news. i'm james menendez. our top stories: italy threatens to close its ports after warning the latest wave of migrants from north africa is unsustainable. european ministers meet for crisis talks. iraqi specialforces recapture more territory from so—called islamic state, but thousands of civilians remain trapped in mosul. double wimbledon champion petra kvitova returns to sw19 after a knife attack that made herfear she'd never play tennis again. 0njb 0n jb robertson in 0njb robertson in business. xi jinping of china in moscow to meet vladimir putin. trade said to be top of their agenda. china is looking to push its vision of a new silk road. but beijing is also looking further afield for some fresh impetus.