hardtalk. rich, ruthless, and famous: my guest is a new york institution, known for the buildings he's built, and the wives he's divorced. you don't want to cross him, though, because he likes getting even. and he's made it a rule that no—one pushes him around — ever. so how did he lose all his money, and then get it back again? donald trump, a very warm welcome to the programme. you say you can't make an omelette without breaking eggs. that sounds like a very destructive business philosophy, is it? well, i'm not sure i've actually used those words. but generally, you have to shake things up pretty — pretty much, in order to do something of consequence. and i have shaken things up, and i've had the best business years of my life, by far. how rough is business in new york? we hear a lot about, it's the roughest, toughest, the most ruthless business in the world. is it? well, i think the business tends to be tougher, maybe, than in other places, but i'm not sure it's true. the real estate business in new york is an amazing business. it's a great business. and any time you have a great business, you always have competition. and you always, have, unfortunately, the smart and the tough people coming into it. do you have to be a killer in business? i think you have to be smart in business. i don't think you have to be a killer, i think you have to be smart. does that mean eyes in the back of your head, always looking to is going to get you, put a fast one you? one of the things i say in the book, and i say very strongly, is you have to be paranoid. and the book is selling so well, and i guess people believe this. but there is a certain advantage to having a certain degree of paranoia. you watch, you can be a little bit careful, you watch what's happening behind your back. and i think that's probably very true in business. if you're paranoid, how much enjoyment is in that? how much time do you have were you can you actually sit back and say look what i've done, this is great? i think that there is great enjoyment. i think that paranoia cannot be carried to a life—shattering crisis point. but i think it's good to always know people are out there, and they are looking, and looking to throw you off your throne. but i think success brings great enjoyment, and certainly it has to me. is it the competition that fires you up? is it the money? what is it that gets you out of bed in the morning? what is it that drives you, here? i really think it is the artistic or the aesthetic. i love building great buildings. and the case — most of my business is the building of things. i get great artistic pride that of trump tower, which is on 57th st and 5th ave, in new york, or trump international hotel in town, my new building on central park west. i get a great sense of artistic enjoyment out of those buildings. what do you think of business business methods in the city? i mean, you've been a new yorker your whole life. what you think of the way people conduct business in the city. i don't think that new york is that much different from other places. what i do think is there is a greater energy in new york. there is greater verve, or a greater drive, maybe, in new york, than most other places. and really, than any other place i have seen. but i don't think that business itself is much different in new york than anywhere else. greed, corruption, i mean, you say, it's a throwaway line in the book, but you say "greed is good". well, i don't think greed is good. as you know, they did the famous film with michael douglas, wall street, where "greed is good". but that is not the case. i think greed is bad. i think you have to enjoy what you're doing. if you enjoy what you're doing, it will be successful, generally. if you don't enjoy what you're doing, it is almost never going be successful. rich men are always targets. the richer you get, i suppose, the bigger the target that you present to people. how much does that worry you? well, i think that rich men, i guess, are always targets. rich people are always targets. i think that there's a level of celebrity that i have obtained that it's become so ridiculous, now, that makes me an even bigger target. so it always bothers me, but there is really not much i can do about that. ridiculous in what way, the celebrity level? well, it's just become tough to go out. it's very tough to do things. it's tough to even go to a restaurant, in a sense, because it's always shaking hands and signing autographs and things. and you know, it didn't used to be that way. that is a symbol of success, is it? you're a victim of your success? it is, but it's not a good symbol, necessarily. it causes lots of problems. because you go out and you want to have dinner with a group of people, and it ends up being a big event, and there are people waiting at the entrance to the — it's just a very tough way to live a life, i find. you talk a lot in your book about getting even, the importance of getting even. is revenge sweet? i believe strongly in getting even. if somebody‘s hurt you, if somebody‘s gone out of their way to hurt you, i think that if you have the opportunity, you should certainly go out of your way to hurt them. and i've had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. the clergy has called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis, they have all said "that's a terrible thing to say, that is against our teaching". others believe that. i believe in an eye for an eye. if you did turn the other cheek, as the clergy is presumably suggesting to you, what would that do to your reputation in business circles, here in new york? i don't know what it would do to my reputation. i just don't believe instinctively in turning the other cheek. if somebody was out to hurt you, if they want to do a number on you, i really believe that you should just do a number on them, if you get the chance. can you give me an example? well, there were people that i really helped in business. when things were very good in the 1980s, and my company was going good. and they did not lift a finger to help me when i needed it. and there were a couple of them that could have very easily helped me. now i have the opportunity to do a number on those people, and i will tell you, i'm having a lot of fun with the opportunity. who are the movers and shakers in this society? we get the impression, in new york, that power is in the hands of a few very, very rich people, yourself included. decisions in smoke—filled rooms? is that still the way business is conducted in the city? well, i think new york is very much run politically. i think we have a mayor, named rudy giuliani, who has done an incredible job in new york. and just got re—elected. and just been re—elected by a huge margin. i guess the largest margin ever. he has been an incredible mayor, he has done an unbelievablejob — he has just been great. and so it starts off with the mayor, the leadership, the politicians. we have other people within the business community, obviously, that are very important, and are a lot of them. but the city's just become very, very hot. and i think it is due to rudy, and lots people in business, that have done such a good job. when you say hot, more focused? it's really become focused. it's just a place where everyone wants to be. people want to come to new york. they love the city. they want to be here. they want the action. you know, new york has action. new york is unbelievable action. everyone wants to be here. and i happen to be the biggest developer in new york. my company now has do much better than it ever did in the 1980s. what do you attribute that to? well, i think one thing is perseverance. i mean, when things were tough at the beginning of the 90s, for me and every one else, the problem with me was i was getting all the publicity. the great depression, you call it, the ‘905? i call it the great depression of the early ‘90s, because we were really in a real estate depression. and it was real estate and retailing and airlines, and various other businesses, they were in a total depression. they weren't in a recession. and i survived, and most people didn't survive. i mean, a lot of my friends, a lot of good people and bad people had go bankrupt. and you never heard from them again, and you probably never will hear from them again. but you know, i survived to a point where the company is much bigger now than it ever was, and much stronger, financially, than it ever was. and i wrote a book about it. but in the early ‘90s, you faced the possibility of losing everything. in fact, on paper, you had lost pretty much everything. i had faced the possibility of losing everything. and it — i went back to work, i focused. i focused my mental energies, and all of my energies. you never thought of giving up? no, i think one of the reasons why i really succeeded and bigger than even in the ‘80s is the fact that — it's a little word called perseverance. i didn't stop. it's a long word, actually. it is a long word come to think of it. i didn't stop. i did persevere. i went up against a lot of odds. i came up with a phrase, "survive till ‘95". that was in the early 1990s. and it turned out to be right. because the world changed, the economy changed, and there was a survival tactic until a certain year. and in 1995, things started changing. but i mean, it really started changing for me almost right at the beginning. i went back to work. i refocused my energies. how desperate were you at that time? how depressed did you get? to start off with, i really blamed myself a little bit, because i've always been able to pick markets. and i really wasn't focused towards the end of the ‘80s. i was having too good of time, i was enjoying my life too much. things are going too well. you dropped your guard? i did drop my guard. and it is no different from you if you do 15 great interviews, you know, on the 16th, you can take it easy because... that happens in life. it's a human trait. i did drop my guard. i put my guard back up and put my defences and offences more than i ever did in the ‘80s, and worked probably harder than i did in the ‘70s and ‘80s. and actually became much more successful. you had to believe in your own abilities. wasn't there a time where you thought "i really can't hack it, i should get out of this, i'm not suited to this"? there were some times. there was pretty depressing times. because i owed billions and billions of dollars. $975 million or so was personally guaranteed. and that is a pretty deep hole. and when you're that deep in debt, you're mired in debt, and you're that deep in debt, that's a pretty rough situation to be in. and the vultures circling around you? well, you had plenty of vultures. you had plenty of bad people circling. and some good people, frankly, that wanted to get paid. but it was just, it was "hunker down time" as they say in georgia. and i did do that. tell me about the women in your life, because there seems a sense in which, you say in the book, you have measured women by your mother? is that right? i have a wonderful mother, a great mother. i don't measure women by my mother, but i have a woman in my mother who is a terrific woman. and i've been married to two very nice women, but itjust didn't work out. and i think part of that, one of the negatives to success is that there are lots of obstacles thrown in your way in terms of relationship. first of all, time. but even your own mental psyche. i mean, my thing is, i'm thinking about deals, and i'm thinking about these great buildings all over, you know, that i'm doing, i'm building the largestjob ever approved by the new york city planning commission on the west side. you know, that's a thought process. there's a lot of things that i'm doing and building. and think about that, maybe, as opposed to a relationship. and i'm not saying that in a positive way, i'm saying it almost in a negative way. because it's very negative in terms of relationship. and success may be great in terms of living and lifestyle, and beautiful homes and apartments, and boats, and planes, and all of this stuff that doesn't mean very but success is not necessarily very good for a relationship. "women are far stronger than men," you say — do you really believe that? i believe that women are actually stronger than men. and actually say that they are not so much stronger, but i think they are more aggressive than men. and "their sex drive makes us look like babies." i think that the woman's sex drive is as good or greater than a man's sex drive. i've been witness to it, and perhaps you have, if you're lucky. but sex drive of women is extraordinary. and they like to portray themselves as the weaker sex, but the weaker sex doesn't exist, believe me. i think they probably, they're certainly the more aggressive sex. and even in business, i've found that some women are just more aggressive. and i don't exactly know why. and i say this with respect, i don't say this was scorn, with anything else. i say this out of respect. but i think the women, in many cases, are more aggressive than men. you've seen that sex drive first hand. you talk about the woman of great social pedigree, and the dinner party you went to. tell me about that. well, i've had a lot of circumstances where a woman's sexual drive has turned out to be just extraordinary. and not necessarily anticipated by me. and i write about this in the book. and it's pretty good stuff. this — this was a specific dinner, though, wasn't it? there was a specific dinner. what happened ? well, i would rather let the book speak to it, because to be honest, it's almost embarrassing talking about it in a — in an interview. because it really is mostly a business book. but i think that women have a lot to do with business. they've a lot to do with the effect on your life and how they affect your life. they've a huge amount to do that. she embarrassed you, though, this woman. i mean, you don't name her in the book... i don't — i would never name her. somebody else wrote a book and named all the women that he had, as he said, "conquered". it was playing with the feet under the table, wasn't it? yes, it was, and it was a whole thing, and it led to something that was sort of interesting, and it led to — itjust wasn't a very good thing, especially with her husband sitting on the other side of the table. and there are so many instances like this. and i do talk about them in the book. and they're interesting. it is not what the book is all about. but the book is about success, and frankly, women so influence you, and the world, and the world around you, that i devote a lot of to women in the book. you say that women have one of the "great acts of all time. the smart ones very feminine and needy, but inside, they're real killers." it sounds as though you almost have a sort of love—hate relationship with women. well, i might. i have mostly a love relationship with women, because i totally admire and respect and love women. i think women are incredible. but i really do. i feel that there — there is a — the ones who go out and do it without waving the banner of women's liberation. and if you look at the really successful women, those are the ones that are not had to wave that big banner. they've just gone out and done it. two wives, that you've had, ivana and marla. what do you think of them now? i have good relations relationships with both of them. you have had fights. you were in an ongoing fight with one of them at the time the book was being written. i mean, well, see, iwould rather address that question sometime later because at this moment, umm, i have a very good relationship with ivana. i think i have a very good relationship with marla, but i will be able to tell you in a month or two. we'll find out. you've stressed the importance, though, of the prenuptial agreement, even though you say it's a vicious and it's an ugly document, and people who sign it are 50% more likely to divorce than those who don't. but yet you stress that this is the key to a happy marriage? prenuptial agreements are ugly, vicious, terrible documents that you have to have. i mean, it is, umm, if you are getting married, and if you are a person of substance, a man or a woman of substance, you have to have a prenuptial agreement. and the reason is the word "certainty." you need certainty over your business. you can't be going on for ten years fighting over a divorce settlement. you need certainty. you just have to have a prenuptial agreement. and even when you do, you have battles, as you have shown. it's not foolproof, is it? even when you do, i mean, even when you have a... well, prenuptials are pretty foolproof, but, they still fight. and people who will still fight over prenups, i know people that have fought for more than their prenuptial agreements have given, they are legion. but, umm, you know, the prenuptials are very strong agreements and hold up. does it take the romance out of it? yeah, it does. it's always hard to go up to somebody and say, look, i love you very much, but if and when we get divorced, this is what you're getting, so, you know, would you agree to that? it's always... it's always really tough. it's a very unromantic agreement. there's nothing nice about a prenuptial agreement. but from a practical standpoint, and living in this world, and living through a very difficult court system, and everything else, i think it's absolutely necessary for somebody to have one. and it's so important that actually at some point i devote a chapter in the book to prenuptial agreements. so, you think that if you can sort out the finances, that somehow the relationship will take care of itself? i think that finances and relationships are very, very different. i think that finances, that great success, often leads to bad relationships unfortunately. i think that the reason somebody becomes successful is they focus on success, his or her success, not necessarily his or her relationship. but i think that there are times when both can work beautifully if you get the right partner. and getting the right partner is a very important thing in life. having the right partner can be a very beautiful thing in life, if you are lucky enough to do that. taking a breakfrom romance now? i think so. it is certainly not number one in my mind. i am having a lot of fun doing what i am doing. it'sjust not number one in my mind. glad to be free? yes. available? not that we are advertising. i think there is nothing like having a good relationship. i think having a great relationship is more important than deals and more important than everything else. i find that business comes very easy to me and a good relationship is hard. i have just found that historically it's been the case. most people would say it's just the opposite, it's easier to have a relationship. i think that a relationship is based on so many different things that are just adverse to business. and i think having that great relationship does not necessarily go with having that great business. most important to you seems to be your children, is that right? yeah, i have great children and they are very important to me. and i think that is one of the good things that came out of those relationships. and your parents, are you still very close to them? i am still very close to my parents. i have a great relationship with them. how did they inspire your business? your father was a businessman. my father was a builder in brooklyn, in queens. he built moderate—income housing. he was really good at what he did. he was a real professional. and i learned a lotjust sitting on his knee, you know, listening to him from the time i grew up. and ijust learned a lot about negotiating, i learned a lot about building, i learned a lot about business. and while he was at a different level in terms of the kinds of things he did, he still built, and he built, you know, some really good stuff. he built somejobs out in brooklyn, in queens, out in the boroughs of new york, for low and moderate income people. and, you know, he did a really good job at what he did. tell me about your friends, because you count some of the most important people in the world among yourfriends. there was a dinner you went out with michaeljackson which you described in your book. tell me about that, because he seemed almost lost when you took him out to a restaurant. lost looking at the menu. what do you remember about that evening? michaeljackson was literally just. .. he is a very good guy. and he is having a difficult time. but he was literally going to a restaurant. we went to le cirque, the great le cirque, with sirio. and michael was sitting at the table and he just sort of... it was like he was never at a restaurant before. he did not know about menus, he did not know about things. and i said to him, when was the last you were at a restaurant? and he said "many, many years ago." and i believe that was true, because he was so not at ease in the restaurant. did you have to orderfor him? i mean, he did fine. and, saying that, he was just not somebody was exposed to this kind of life. what i really thought was interesting was there are many great celebrities at that restaurant. they had never asked for autographs in their life. people ask them for autographs. and they were asking him for his autograph. that, to me, was the funniest thing about the evening. sylvester stallone. and frank sinatra you fell out with at some point. what was all that about? i had a dinner. and i apologised at this point. i said so many things about frank sinatra in my second book. he is just a terrific guy. over a lifetime... well... how did you fall out? he was rough and tough at the table with somebody, not me, but somebody at the table, namely his wife. and i was really shocked that it. i was surprised at it. i don't get shocked too easy. i was just amazed at how bad this particular incident was. and then i realised, you go outside and everyone is pulling at his coat strings trying to get his autograph, trying to break him down one way or the other. it really was pretty tough from all of those standpoints. and as i mellowed, coming into my third book, i said, you know, ifeel badly about writing about him. and i did the same thing with malcolm forbes. a great friend of mine. when i was having trouble with forbes magazine, i did not feel good about malcolm forbes. then i realised he wasjust doing his thing just trying to do the right thing, and i apologised to malcolm forbes, because he was just really doing his thing. and malcolm forbes has since died. and new york city has lost a great guy and a great character. the impression from what you write is that you haven't had a good press. you haven't enjoyed relations with the press, you think the press has misled you, lied to you. is that an occupational hazard? i think it is an occupational hazard. i think a lot of the press is dishonest, i think a lot of the press is really, really dishonest. most people think i get great publicity. i happen to think i get terrible publicity. do you mind what people say about you ? i used to mind much more. the one thing i have learned is that it is a one—week phenomenon, sometimes even a one—day phenomenon. it doesn't matter. usually at the end of a week or even a day it is gone. once you get that into your head you can live with it. the lessons you have learned over your career. nobody leans on you, do they? you are very, very focused. i think i help people, i like people, i have a good relationship with people, i have a lot of good relationships with people in business and generally. do people try to lean on you? everyone does. i don't mind being leaned on if it is to help somebody. i really enjoy helping people at high levels and at low levels and i feel that is very important to give to charity. i give a lot of money to charity, i try to give as much as i can. but, you know, there are times when you just have to say "that is enough," "that is all i can do." people might look at you and think to themselves, "i wonder what it is like to have all of that money." donald trump, what is it like to have all of that money? well, again, money does not buy happiness and it does not buy lots of other things, but it certainly makes life easier, and it lets me create what i want to do artistically. because i'm an artist, in a certain sense, i'm an artist. i built the greatest buildings in the world and i'm the biggest developer in new york city and i love what i am doing and i have put up great things. and having money and having the kind of access to money that i have allows me to do what i like to do best. if someone said "i want to be donald trump," what would you say? i would say good luck. thank you for talking to us. thank you. hello there. we've got a bit of a taste of winter for the new working week. the cold front is going south across the uk introducing colder conditions. so, through the week ahead, a chance of seeing wintry showers. gardeners, take note, also some frosty nights over the next few nights too. we are already seeing colder conditions moving in across scotland with sleet and snow showers, mostly over the high ground, but some wintry precipitation getting down to lower levels. further south across the uk, we've got quite a lot of cloud. a few outbreaks of rain. but still into the milder air. looking at the weather for monday morning. 8am. largely dry in southern counties. some sunshine in the south coast towards london. so, a relatively fine start to the day. heading our way further north, one or two patchy showers coming out of the cloud and the bulk of england and wales. heavy rain in northern england and northern ireland first thing as well. that is the weather front going south. but to the north of that, sunshine and wintry showers blowing in on that brisk northerly wind across scotland. it will be wintry across the north of scotland. there could be accumulations of snow in the higher ground of scotland. sleet mixed in even at lower levels and hail is possible. further south across the uk, cloudy with outbreaks of rain on that frontal system. some reaching the london region later on. temperatures still around 14—15 degrees. further north, struggling, at best, 7—9. still mild in the far south late on monday. getting cleared away and pushed away by the frontal system. that opens the door for cold air to work across all of the country into tuesday. northerly arrows showing that bitterly cold wind. across scotland once again on tuesday, further sleet and snow showers. down the east coast of england, also some showers here. some working further inland. mostly falling as rain on lower levels. but there will be some sleet and snow mixed in. some sunshine and dry conditions across much of southern and south—western england. but temperatures at best around 7—11 on tuesday. a similar day on wednesday. sunshine and scattered showers. a bit of a wintry flavour to some of these showers over the high ground in particular. and again, those temperatures will struggle. just seven degrees in aberdeen. 12 in london. the latter part of the week, gradually things will start to turn a little bit milder and showers should ease in most areas. that's how it's looking. have a good week. hello, welcome to bbc news. i'm karin giannone, live in paris, with our special coverage of the french presidential election. the centrist emmanuel macron wins through to the run—off in two weeks. he said a page had clearly turned in french politics. inflation macro would become the president of all the people of france, the president of the patriot in the face of the threat and the nationalists. he'll face marine le pen of the anti—immigration national front, who described the first round result as "historic." translation: the time has come to get rid of all of the arrogant people who wanted to dictate to the population