Transcripts For BBCNEWS HARDtalk 20170416

With governments now, but your whole career basically sounds as though you have been banging your head against a brick wall. Did you learn some lessons from that . Of course, of course. What lessons did you draw . It seems like the only lesson you took was, you know what, after a while you betray your best friends in politics . No. I dont agree with that at all. I bet you know. I bet you know how do you feel as president that you are going to go down in history as a president who presided over a loss of a large part of your territory . I understood that you wished to do this interview, and you wished to reply to questions that we, In The Name Of the bbc, are putting towards you. Am i not right . Yeah, cheers. Hardtalk. To the next 20 years well you got water and ive got wine . thats terrible our show has a name which gives you a very strong clue as to what youre going to get. And i do wonder sometimes whether calling the Programme Hardtalk has been a huge advantage, because it cuts through. And i think people know what our show is about. It has an extraordinarily clear and strong profile. But also, there are some people Around The World who will be approached by their pr people and say, oh, there is this bbc programme, hardtalk, on the phone and they would really like to talk to you. And ijust wonder whether calling it hardtalk is, for some, a red flag. Its the bbc doing what the bbc. Shouldnt it be a red flag . Shouldnt we also be calling it what it is . Of course. But interestingly, if you look at the way in which, over 20 years. Do you want to rebrand . Not at all. After 20 years . Not at all. But if you look over 20 years at the degree to which now politicians want to manage everything about their public profile, and their spin doctors are multiplying, their entourage is expanding, and now they have the unmediated platform of social media, which donald trump has exploited more than any other politician, i am just going to be interested to see, over the next lets hope 20 years of hardtalk, whether we still get the same access to those in power. But for me, hardtalk is not harsh talk. Its asking tough questions. Its not a politically closed country then . Because you have got people like the opposition leader, victoire ingabire, who is on trial because she. I wish i knew what you were. No, but im just putting it to you. Lets talk about things that matter. This matters, doesnt it . The National Treasurer of the opposition, United Democratic force, says dissidents remain silent out of fear in rwanda. What is your response . My response is that maybe you should take all your time, or most of your time, asking every leader of this world on these programmes. Well, i mean we do put these points and criticisms to leaders, other politicians, when we talk. The cynicism that comes along with it. I wasnt being cynical. I was giving you a chance to rebuff some of these allegations. I will tell you one thing. We have explained these so called allegations. But, and im glad youre even putting it that way yourself, you are talking about all of the progress that rwandans are making in their lives, and then you put in but. Nobody should really be, who submits themselves to doing hardtalk, should worry about hard questions, because its also fair, because you get a chance. Did tony blair worry . He never came on the programme. Kofi annan never came on the programme. No, i agree with you. We lost a lot of interviews because it was a tough programme. Not because of the name, but because of how the interviews were done. If you give somebody a tough question and you dont give them the opportunity to answer it, i think thats not fair play. And i think a lot of people watching may feel that sometimes. And that is why i defend calling it hardtalk, but i just think that it ought to be fair in the sense that if you ask somebody something, they should have the chance to answer it. Nobody is ever going to agree on what is fair. And you get constantly criticised for interrupting. But if you dont interrupt certain people, youre going to get a speech for 20 minutes. Of course. This shouldnt be a freeride. Have you had anybody walk out . I have. Yes. And didnt come back . Yes. My walkout was with a gentleman called max clifford, who was a pr guru. He is now injail. Nothing to do with my interview, but he is now injail he walked out after about eight minutes, which i realise was quite a clever tactic, because if you walk out early in an interview, obviously in hardtalk, where we fill half an hour slot, you walk out very early, then there is no programme. You sayjade is happy, and i appreciate you have that long chats with her about all of this. But she is obviously a very vulnerable woman. And shes dying. Ill tell you what, lets just call it a day. You know, ijust dont like the tone of all this. I really dont need this. You are quoting interviews i did five years ago. I thought this was a general conversation about my business and what i do. No, it is. Thats fine. Good luck to you. If you come back, max. I dont need it. I havent got the time or the inclination. You do what you want with it. Im quite happy. Im very comfortable with what im actually doing. Look, if you let us continue, the whole interview is going to touch on many aspects of your business. Its not just. Im sure it is. Yeah, yeah. Youve made it very clear where youre coming from. I can see where youre coming from. Good luck to you. I hope youre very happy. Well, its a shame that he cant stick around to do the full interview. It was a walkout over, again a matter that to many people would have seemed quite insignificant, but he was just in a very bad mood and hejust didnt like the cut of myjib. He tossed off the microphone and off he went. He kicked the studio wall on the way out and a chunk of plaster fell off. So another satisfied client he cant sue you because hes behind bars, so youre all right hes in prison on matters unrelated. And theyre going to let you know when hes released, are they . You do feel slightly conscious that now weve got a gap to fill. You know what . All we did was put it in the christmas video, in the sort of upsum of the year. That was as good as we could do with it. But we couldnt use it as a programme. I do wonder though, and im just thinking now about the future of the show, whether again, whether we believe that the Attention Span of audiences Around The World for news and Current Affairs still means that the full on half hour intense, thoroughgoing, compelling sort of inquisition. What other programme does it . We are about the only programme in the world that does it. Why is that . Why have other broadcasters given up on the Testing Longform interview . I think they have underestimated the publics appetite. I think the public is keen on accountability, much more now, keen on facts in a way they were not before. Facts are in public focus. I think we are increasingly relevant. Ok, but where will you go with it . You were saying your Starting Point was for the next 20 years. Where im going with it is, i think about my own kids. You know, ive got kids who are late teens and early 20s, and they have grown up not really, frankly, settling down to watch news and Current Affairs television in the way that we did. So do you think it doesnt have a future . No, i think because. Thank goodness, i still believe, from the feedback i get, anecdotal and the evidence we get in audience research, that there are enough people who value what we do, that weve got a very strong future. And i think tim is right, in the current political environment Around The World, and all this discussion of fake news and alternative facts, and an attempt by so many people in power to manipulate information. Its an antidote. But you must have had people walk out on you . Very few, actually. Very few. One of the most memorable wasjames hewitt, dianas lover. Yes, yeah. We got to a point in the interview where i said, youve just written this tell all book, did you not consider the feelings of her children, the princes . And he went, took of the microphone, and said, thats a disgusting question to ask. Youre a cad i said, im a cad . Im suddenly the bad person in this he got up and he walked out. And unfortunately, again, as it was only eight or ten minutes in, we didnt have a programme to show. But no, surprisingly few. Surprisingly few. I think a lot of people. I remember a Deputy Foreign minister in israel, he was a rabbi. He said he came on the programme and in 25 years of public life he had never had such a response to anything hed done in public as to the hardtalk interview. Tim, thats so true. And youve just planted in my head a thought about said barakat, about whom you have interviewed a lot of times. So have i. Yes, yes. Who you reduced to tears. But interestingly, the last time i spoke to him, and he has been the chief palestinian negotiator for a long time, hes been around that story from when i was a cub reporter following the oslo process in the early 1990s. Said barakat, just a few months ago when he spoke to me, was so low, so depressed, so run dry by that whole process, which is frankly stuck, going nowhere, moribund, dead, in many many ways. I have never heard you this bleak, this negative, this despairing. Is it all over for you . You know, if i answer you in any way i may cause more deaths. Ijust want to keep a ray of hope. Because i know at the end of the day violence will breed more violence. Violence is not the answer. I know that the answer is for someone in the International Community to bring to the Security Council resolution reiterating the two State Solution within a specific time frame, within an international conference, saying the state of palestine to live side by side with the state of israel on 1967 lines. Now, if people ask me, how come you failed . I could not deliver, that is the truth. Now, do i leave . Im thinking about it. Im seriously thinking about it, stephen. Im seriously thinking about it because there is much that i cant take from my own family, from my own neighbours. I look them in the eyes, i wasnt able to deliver. And that is the truth. An extraordinary admission, isnt it . And it comes back to that word we used earlier, which is raw. Hardtalk can be raw. And because we have that extra time to really dig deep into somebodys psyche, there are times when they express emotion and dig deep into themselves in a way that you dont see anywhere else. Sometimes we all interview celebrities, actors and musicians and so on, and i still think they should be subjected to some rigorous questioning. And im thinking most recently of burt reynolds, whom i interviewed. And he was charming. And he enjoyed it. But it was obviously tougher kind of questions than he would normally have on the celebrity circuit. And ijust said to him at the end, youre approaching your 80th birthday, and so on, are you happy . Would you describe yourself as happy . And he said, i was until i started this interview i always find that people are more. Celebrities often seem surprised that they enjoy it so much. I really like that. Its a whole different interview to what im used to. I mean, when you look back at some of the stuff that you did then, are you guilty of misogyny . I wrote those lyrics for that song. You can come straight. It was very much a tongue in cheek song, not misogynistic in any way. How do you explain it to your daughters . You have got teenage daughters now. Um. Well, theres a Spirit Of Rock And Roll that has, that is, to me, far and above. You know, misogyny or homophobia, or any of those things. Theres just like this primal sex and Rock And Roll Arejust hand in hand. How would i explain it to my daughters . But dont you think its. I mean, you make the point when you are writing this book that you are responsible for some of the stuff. Isnt that Spirit Of Rock And Roll responsible in influencing people in the way that they see things . Um, i think i give humans a lot more credit than. If i write a song or a lyric, if it influences them in a bad way, which i rarely ever hear about you know, 99. 99 of the times people come up to me and say, your music changed my life its always a positive thing. Its a sign of something really rather wonderful about some of these celebrities who live in a bubble, frankly, of minders and pr, but particularly the selling of the movie, where there is a Conveyor Belt of five minute interviews where they talk a little bit about the plot and their co stars and say what a wonderful movie it is, and then next, they move on. Whereas if they come on hardtalk, its going to be nothing like that. Theyre gonna have 25 minutes where the questions could be about their politics, they could be about decisions they made earlier in life that were very difficult at the time. It could be about a whole bunch of things. It certainly wont be a puff for their book, their movie, their latest perfume. And i think hats off to those who are prepared to do it. Its all set up, typically of course its in the studio, and its all set up in this confrontation. But sometimes, and often when you are out doing an on location interview, where things go really wrong, and suddenly, theres a sort of comedy. Can you think of one . I can certainly it think of one which was meant to be in the studio, where ilya ponomarev, the russian mp, the only member of the duma who had voted against the annexation of crimea, and wed set it up. And like, every single thing technically went wrong. Such that when he was doing the interview and it started raining. And some guy put up an umbrella and you could see this hand come in from the side of the screen this is on location in kiev. I was like, this is not really hardtalk and then they moved it under this awning, and then the awning collapsed on his head, with this water pouring down. And he was so good natured. I was sort of giving him this hard time about russian politics. I mean, it wasjust. By the end of it, it wasjust like, thank you so much for coming on hardtalk i cant quite believe we got there its interesting you raise funny moments, because actually i think sometimes when you conduct a hardtalk interview, although its hard, there are moments of humour. And actually, i think its actually a very good way of the interviewee disarming you, the interviewer. And im thinking in particular of Archbishop Desmond tutu. And i remember saying to him when i did a hardtalk with him, well, you know, president Robert Mugabe of zimbabwe has described you as an evil little interfering bishop. And he looked at me and he said, did he say that . Did he really say that . he started laughing and laughing and laughing, and chuckling, with his shoulders moving up and down. What did i do, of course . Laugh my head off, too. On air i mean, so sometimes there are a humorous moments on air. Tutu is wonderful for that, wasnt he . He is. But thats a very good way of defusing, you know, actually, a difficult question. And the same with burt reynolds. I remember saying to him, have you used your good looks and your sex appeal to further your career . Nothing like buttering him up, of course exactly. He did that nude photo spread. It was a very iconic image of you lying on your side with just your hand protecting your modesty. Yeah. Both my hands, by the way which are not small. And i was. Yes, it made me happy. Laughter. How did you react . I laughed wouldnt you . And blushed. But you know, we were talking about the future of hardtalk . And where it stands now in a world of social media, where, you know, the Digital Revolution means the media is so much more fragmented. I mean, i think now when you have a president like donald trump obviously tweeting, because he doesnt like the mainstream media, because he describes us, including the bbc, as dishonest. Its called the bbc. And i think he said, well, thats another beauty, he said about the bbc anyway, but i think it is interesting because now, you know, he communicates directly with the electorate through his tweets. And sometimes in the mainstream media, written as well as broadcasters, were having to sort of get our news from social media, from twitter, what the president of the United States says. In a way, do you think its kind of the tail wagging the dog . I have to say i think trump is a master of understanding the power of social media, and i think he has changed politics in that sense. I dont think Democratic Politics will ever be the same again. Because other people have watched the trump phenomenon, the fact he didnt Play The Game of spending vast amounts of money on tv advertising, but reached his public, unmediated, through his twitterfeed and social media platforms, and they have learned a lot from it. Clearly, we wont get trump, but we might get people around him. And surely, thats where we have to be part of the antidote to fake news . Wouldnt it be great to get trump though . Oh, my god wed scratch each others eyes out i was going to say, wed all be fighting i did actually do trump in 1998. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. On hardtalk. When he was sort of pretty unknown. Oh, my god what was he like . It wasnt a very good interview. It was hardly my finest hour. There was very little time for preparation. But there is one thing that stuck in my mind. You talk in your book about getting even, the importance of getting even. Is revenge sweet . I believe strongly in getting even. If somebody has hurt you, if somebody has gone out of their way to hurt you, i think that if you have the opportunity you should certainly go out of your way to do a number on them. I have had more criticism about that one statement in my book than any other statement. The clergy has called, the ministers, the priests, the rabbis. They have all said, what a terrible thing to say. That its against our teachings. I believe in an eye for an eye. We were in a tiny little room and he wouldnt shake hands. Hes a germaphobe. He is also worried about his hands and the size of his hands but we do need to be testing the people around trump. And we need to be reaching out to them and interviewing them as often as we possibly can. But ijust think we need to learn, too, that while we are fundamentally committed to the long form interview, and that is what we do, we need to make sure that the product, the content, which matters so much to all of us, is consumed by as many people as possible. And the truth is, i talked about my kids earlier, you know, there is a change in the media landscape. And we have to react to it too. So we have to make sure that hardtalk does have a profile. Here is a thought for you all. When the lights are on, the mics are on, the studio is set and we say, welcome to hardtalk, do you really feel youre being yourself, or is there an element of performance about it all . Well, i dont do that to my husband every day i dont know about you he wouldnt be your husband very long. Exactly and sometimes people. You have heard of this response from people sometimes, which is, they assume it must be that way you think. And you say, no, im challenging a persons position. If it wasnt us, it would be an act. And we dont go on hardtalk to act, we go on hardtalk because we actually care about the issues. We do care about the issues. True, but sometimes, depending on who the interviewee is, you take a position to challenge them. Well, you always take the opposite position, dont you . I was going to say, i mean, i reflected on it a lot, because ive done the show consistently for the last 11 years, and i think to myself sometimes, am i really a nasty person . And then i say to myself, no, im not what i am is curious and i love an argument. And i think your point is interesting. You cant go into that studio and pretend to be something youre not, not consistently. Because that would really get you down after a while. I do love a good argument. I love a challenge. And i am very curious. And i love to talk to people and find out what makes them tick. Im an angry old man and hardtalk helped me get there laughter. Now youre embittered as well since you stopped doing it you look 10 years younger you laugh a lot longer. I mean, ive been doing hardtalk now for the same length as you, but not obviously as often. But i would say that i am. Its part of me is the person you see on hardtalk. I like rigorous argument, engaging in, you know, considered argument, intellectual jousting. I think thats one aspect with some of the interviews we do. I think Holding People to account, as somebody who was born in africa, where, you know, over the years, i have seen that the media isnt as rigorous as it should be in many african countries, that i feel that i am fulfilling a kind of, you know, something that is important for me is being a voice for people, in being able to put those questions. So i would say yes, the person you see, it is the same. Although when i do meet people, they say sometimes, hello, zeinab badawi, no hardtalk, please they might say at the end of it, actually, you are very, very nice. I say, yes, but of course. Thats the classic. Oh, youre much nicer i get that all the time. And they are, they are. You know what, everybody . As i say on the show, we have run out of time. But we cant end this Conversation Without A Classic Hardtalk handshake. Oh, the handshake and long may hardtalk continue. Yes. Good luck. What a tight grip youve got laughter. A few showers continue in the morning but the setup for Easter Monday is one of High Pressure to the west, low to the east. It brings in a northerly airflow and Clear Conditions to come over the next 2a 36 hours, especially by night and notjust with us, across a good part of northern and eastern europe. Lets split the country into two for Easter Monday because cooler conditions to begin with will be across Northern England, ireland. Northern ireland should stay dry throughout. A few showers across the eastern half of scotland in particularfor a time, some of those will bring hail and rain to low levels before sunshine develops widely. The southern half of the uk and here we start off with more cloud and a couple of residual overnight showers here and there. The odd shower through the day pushing through the breeze will not last too long. Most places will avoid them and most of the day will be dry with increasing amount of such a developing after a cloudy start. Temperature wise, it will feel pleasant as the sunshine comes out in the afternoon. Cooler further north, particularly where there are showers and strong winds. Here we will chase the Evening Showers from Northern England down across other parts of central and Eastern England to take is into tuesday. The sky is clear and the winds feel lighter. The cold conditions to take this into early tuesday and the coldest night of the week in the northern uk. 5 reaching 7 in the countryside. Most should avoid a frost across the south. Close call but the breeze mayjust be enough but it will be a chilly commute if you are back to work on tuesday. If you have the day off, a lovely fresh spring day in store. A few isolated showers, cloudier into the hebrides, Patchy Rain Later but for many it is sunny. Temperatures not overly high but it will feel very nice indeed. High pressure builds in across southern areas as we go into tuesday night and wednesday. As it pushes southwards we allow more off the atlantic in the form of cloud into scotland, keeping temperatures appear to take this into wednesday, clear skies in the south and a cold start. The remainder of the week, it will feel warmer by day, but frosty nights will still be a feature of and will take effect across the southern half of the uk. Im rico hizon in singapore. The headlines turkeys president erdogan narrowly wins the referendum which will vastly increase his powers. He says constitutional changes will now go ahead. Translation today, the decision made by the turkish public is a historic moment. This is not an ordinary decision, this is not an ordinary day. Another warning to north korea. President Trumps National security advisor says the us is working with its allies and china on a range of options. Im kasia madera in london. 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