Some very significant people have lined up, condemning what you have done, or questioning it. Im not sure. The european commissioner, peter mandelson, has questioned the wisdom of publishing the cartoons, he says, publishing them again and again pours petrol on the flames. You talk about frustration with governments, now, but your whole career, basically, sounds as if its been banging your head against a brick wall. Great to see you, how are you . How do you feel, as president , that you are going to go down in history as a president who presided over a loss of a large part of your territory . Oh, gosh, yes. We understood that you wished to do this interview, and you wished to reply to questions that we, In The Name Of the bbc, are putting towards you, am i not right . Cheers yeah to the next 20 years how come you all have water, and i have got wine . Thats terrible so go on, youve got to take us back to the first run. We want to hear, tim, your thoughts on how it all started, and what it was all like. You know, the strangest thing about starting it was that people didnt talk about the content, they were obsessed with what i might wear on set. And the ideas were so bizarre, ranging from a normal suit, to a Smoking Jacket and fez, at one particular point. But luckily, we got off that, we got onto the interviews. And we got away from the idea that if you are going to do a 25 minute interview, it wasntjust more of the same questions, it was going to have to have a different character, and it was going to start drilling down and become more of a Cross Examination in an interview. Really putting facts to people. I mean, there is an obsession with what are facts, now. Fake facts, what are real facts, now . But actually, 20 years ago, we were pretty keen on facts, and pretty keen on putting facts to the interviewees. And very quickly, the programme developed this human rights agenda. Because i think everybody on the team cared about this. You will almost like a kind of Chief Prosecutor at the now International Criminal court. That was the fun of it. You could have applied to thatjob, i think. I could have, i could have. But i knew nothing about anything, except except that we got guests that did know things, and had cases to answer. But a lot of it was also about what drove them. What drove them, but you had to come away after 25 minutes with something new. You couldntjust regurgitate yes, you couldntjust regurgitate the same thing. No, but i think that Holding People to account, i still think that they are the best hardtalks. I dont know what you think. And ive only got one that i really remember very vividly i mean there are others, there is jean pierre bemba, who was Vice President of the Democratic Party Republic Of Congo at the time, and he now, you know, went to the International Criminal court, and was duly found, you know, guilty of terrible human rights abuses. So i think that, for me, is the best kind of hardtalk, where youve got somebody who can really say. And he speaks french, because he was educated in belgium, and he didnt like the questions i asked him so i dont understand what you were saying. Sorry, could you say it again . So it gave him time to think, you know. To me, what one of the best signals that what we do Still Matters is the feedback that we get from our audience, particularly as you you talked about the human rights agenda. When we do those interviews with powerful people who are not, frankly, held to account in their own countries, we just get such a wave of positive feedback from our audience, thinking of meles zenawi, the Prime Minister of ethiopia, when i talked to him and he was a very strong leader. And he ruled his country with something of an iron fist. But when i challenged him on the specific human rights records, some of the abuses that we can put at his governments door, he found it difficult. And it was a very contentious interview. Who presents the names of members of the Election Board to the house of the peoples representatives for approval . The president submitted the names to the parliament. Now, if we were to appoint new Election Board members, it would be the Prime Minister which would put the names to the parliament. And what were where were you at that particular time . I was the president of the transitional government. You were the president . Yes. So you still put forward the names . Yes, idid. Well, i think thats the point im trying to get to. Afterwards, the reaction we got, not just from ethiopians inside the country, but from ethiopians all around the world, whojust said thank you. Thank you for putting the questions to our Prime Minister that, had we been in the room, with you, we would have wanted to put. Conversely, i think that the leaders who submit themselves to the hardtalk interrogation are sometimes, in a way, almost respected for doing that. Its those who just refuse. Who want to take you on. Yeah, they want to take you on, and they want to submit themselves to 24 minutes of sustained questioning. And thats often, i think, a selling point, when i say to people would you like to do hardtalk . Do you ever. Okay, go on, tim, who was your favourite . Is there a favourite from hardtalk that you remember, that you think. There there there was one person who brought me up short, actually, and it was very interesting. I think sometimes the interviews are very surprising the ones that you dont think are going to be good stay in your memory. This was a man called dennis mcnamara, the un official in charge of displaced people. And i was doing the usual thing you do with un officials, saying the uns failed here, here, and here, and at one point in the interview, he just put up his hands and said wait a minute, wait. Just just hold on a minute. And i got this feeling down back of my spine, thinking, somethings coming, and i may not like whats coming. He said, i cant Save Millions of people, he said, but i have a small plane. And when i can, ifly it into a war zone, and i pick up as many women and children as i can, i put them in the plane, ifly them out, and i land them somewhere safe. He looked at me across the table and said, so, how many lives have you saved . And ijust went, good question. Shut you up . Well, a little bit of humility is not a bad thing. I know, probably, the four of us are not necessarily known for that quality, but a little bit of humility from journalists, who simply sit on the fence and criticise everybody else, is a good thing, sometimes. We dont do the difficult things in life, do we . But its the people who surprise you in those interviews, its not and the ones you remember arent necessarily the ones that youd expect. Thats right. Thats what ive always found. You can go into something thinking. Which which ones do you remember . Which was your most unexpected . Well, there i think its a belgian doctor who i hadnt heard of before. And this was ages ago. And he was talking about how he was in central africa, and started noticing something. This was now professor peter piot, who identified that aids was not just a gay disease, it was heterosexuals, it was throughout africa. But i can remember the moment, listening to him, and the hairs standing up on the back of my neck, and thinking, oh my goodness, the difference youve made to the world. Yeah. And youve just had that moment ofjust. Absolute chill. Weve talked about the ones, you know, the people you hold to account, people in positions of power, but we do a lot of interviews where we speak to opinion formers, you know, and and people who influence people through their work. And im thinking of a writer, lovely ghanaian woman, ama ata aidoo, and she came up with one of my favourite quotes from a hardtalk ive done, when she said, you know, zeinab, the african woman, shes not a downtrodden wretch, as shes often depicted. I remember seeing that. It was great. So when we interview people like that, were actually, you know, challenging perceptions, and, you know, stereotypes and prejudices, and so in that sense, its also dealing with, you know, material that thats quite, you know, a hard topic to that some people may not grasp. And i think those hardtalks are also quite important. Go on stephen, what about you . It is a huge Adrenaline Rush to get an interview that youve worked on for months and months and months, thats extraordinarily difficult to organise, thats frankly, you know. The person involved doesnt want to do it, but you eventually persuade them to do it, and that apply to going to caracas to interview hugo chavez. Oh, wow. Which took a lot of persuasion, notjust from me, but bizarrely from oliver stone, the filmmaker, whom id interviewed for hardtalk, and he became, you know, sort of a. Your producer . Well, friendly. And he knew hugo chavez quite well. And i said id really, really love to interview hugo chavez. And he said stephen, i think i can help you. And one day, i got this phone call, i was having dinner with the family, and oliver stone was on the phone, and he said stephen, its on hugo chavez was fronting the south american film festival, and it was a red carpet thing, and i was invited onto the red carpet to meet him, and i said mr chavez, we do need to get this interview. And he said come to the palace later. So, very late at night, we ended up at the palace with oliver stone, who came along, too and the hardtalk crew, and the venezuelan tv crew. There were about 25 people, all filming each other in this room. And we recorded an hour with chavez because he wouldnt stop talking. You know, it was fascinating. Very combative. He wagged his finger in my face, and said, im surprised the bbc has sent such an idiot. So that was an Adrenaline Buzz of the highest order. I bet. But the other one that sticks in mind, very different, was the Corrections Boss of the Prison System in georgia, the man who had to sign off on every execution. A man called allen ault, who for years did this job, and actually, in essence not literally, but in essence, pushed the button to electrocute a series of prisoners on death row in georgia. And he, overyears, came to find thisjob was destroying him. I still have nightmares, not every night, but on occasion, and he, overyears, came to find thisjob was destroying him. I still have nightmares, not every night, but on occasion, i still have nightmares about it. Its still a its a very ha rd pill to swallow. And its stays in your psyche for i guess forever. Its the most Premeditated Murder possible. But the the manual is about that thick, and the preparation that you go through to execute someone. Every time i think its behind me, then something happens, and it all comes back with a rush, and i was out at the Lexington Airport the morning i had a 6 05am flight. And the 6am flight left. By all rights, id always been on delta airlines. This morning, i was going someplace else, and was on another airline, and i checked in with all these people. And the plane crashed, and killed everyone. And i had to go again. All that all those feelings came back, all those faces came back. All those nightmares came back. And. Ijust had to keep re dealing with it, re dealing with it. I remember a man called hugh thomson, who was a Us Helicopter pilot during the vietnam war. And in 1968, he was trying to divert vietcong fire away from some of the american troops. He flew low over a clearing, and he saw something that stayed in his mind until he died. He saw the picture of american troops massacring villagers, unarmed villagers, in a little place called my lai, which became known, notoriously, as as the my lai massacre. And he stopped he brought the helicopter down, and told his men to train their guns on their fellow american soldiers, who were garrotting, raping, shooting, and stabbing unarmed villagers, vietnamese villagers. And he said, unless you stop, im going to open fire and we will kill you all. And he stopped it. It took 30 years before anybody said thank you. But you were ostracised for a while, werent you . Yep. For a while, yep. You would go to the Officers Mess and everybody would disappear. Yeah. Actually, when it first broke, and people didnt know the facts, and they they forgot all about it very soon after it happened. But personally, you paid a heavy price in terms of depression, didnt you, over the years . A lot of nightmares. Yeah. That you went through. Four marriages. I dont well, theres been multiple marriages. Theres been multiple marriages. Its been hard for you to carry around, hasnt it . No, its life, you know . You gotta do it, you know, life goes on. Can you ever forgive the people who did that . No. Nope, i cant. I dont think im man enough to. I know the pain and suffering that they inflicted for no reason, no reason whatsoever. There was no threat. There was no enemy. They might have all grown up to be enemy, but thats not what a soldier does in any country. Its just not. And when you think of those who walked away from it, got on with their lives, had children, set up businesses. Theyve gotta live with themselves. I imagine some of them dont have an easy time. Im ok with what i did. Ijust, you know, i know their unnecessary pain and suffering, i know how fragile a human life is. We probably all had that experience of leaving an interviewee and feeling incredibly emotional, possibly crying. The only time ive ever cried in front of an interviewee was on hardtalk, thankfully it wasnt on camera, but i suspect most of the audience were in tears too, it was nadia murad, the yazidi girl. It was translated so it was extraordinary sitting opposite someone who was speaking an opposite language to you but we had simultaneous translation, very broken, and hearing this extraordinary story where actually the most affecting thing, so often with these stories, its not necessarily the really grusesome stuff, what sticks in my head was her describing how in order to secure a minute phone call with her brother she had to lick honey off the toe of her husband, supposed husband. I had one interviewee who. The topic was so difficult for him, naguib sawiris, egyptian, very wealthy egyptian industrialist, and the topic was so hard, it was when president Mohamed Morsi was there and a lot of the cops in egypt were concerned about the mood turning against them. He stopped the interview after 12 minutes because the topic was so difficult. It was life or death for him, he received threats and he was worried about his familys safety. We continued the interview but it shows you, its indicative of how difficult the Subject Matter is. One thing ive done, and i really appreciate the opportunity to do it, is take the show on the road, because to reach some of these stories, some of these places as well. Not everyone can come to the hardtalk studio in london. I can actually go on the road and do it myself so the reportage becomes me gathering some of the information, some of the case which we can then put, for example in honduras, to the president of the country after wed been to the city that has the highest Homicide Rate in the world, which is being crippled by gang, drug cartel warfare. We could actually talk to people suffering from that reality before going into the corridors of power. To get an eyewitness account, i paid a visit to the home of hilda lezama. She was on the boat which came under heavy fire. She took a bullet through her thigh and remains seriously ill. Her son in law and to pregnant women were killed. Two pregnant women. Hilda insists all were innocent victims, not drugs traffickers, simply villagers coming back from a trip downriver. I think you put your finger on something thats really important and has become more important over the years, which is weve seen democracy rolled back considerably over the last 10 15 years and it becomes i think that much more important that we hold people to account. When you think about the rollback of democracy even in europe. Were getting the growth of the Free Market Dictatorships and people are accepting this. Social media, which is obviously something. Again, a huge change. Opinion has been elevated beyond facts. But human rights has been downgraded consistently and it shouldnt be. We still need to mention the names of the disappeared, the dates when they disappeared, the dates their bullet ridden bodies were found on the streets, the powerful people who were responsible. Thats the strength of hardtalk. The producers, the researchers that work on the team, we are so rigourous with our facts. I dont know if you feel this as well, but a lot of the people we interviewed over the years should either be in front of criminal trials or War Crimes Tribunals and they werent. So the only thing you can do in a free society is put the questions to them and have them answer them in public. Put the weight of evidence. And that was the strength i think of hardtalk. My experience with mrs milosevic, milosevics wife, who was a serial denier about the Ethnic Cleansing that had taken place in the former yugoslavia. Do you believe he will come home from the hague monday . Why not . Thank you very much indeed for being with us on the programme. No, im asking questions that are of interest to the public. You reminded me of one another rather wonderful moment in my Hardtalk Career when i did an interview with former nigerian president obasanjo and it was again quite a contentious interview and of course human rights and corruption were two topics that came up in the interview, and im sure that was no surprise to him, but we gathered a lot of evidence, spoken to a lot of people and it was seen as quite a forensic test of his record when he was in power. At the end of the interview, we did the usual handshake, because as we all know the handshake happens on hardtalk, and as the credits rolled and the lights dimmed in the studio, he looked at me and through gritted teeth said, stephen, tomorrow youll be hearing from my lawyers. A wonderful way a man, clearly not in power any more, felt there was some sort of aura around him and some sort of Intimidation Tactic he could apply. I met him former president obasanjo, a charming man in his own way, at an event not so long afterwards and he could not have been nicer to me. Ihada. I wont name him, a leading businessmen. Go on, zeiney. We do on hardtalk. This is hardtalk come on in the world of finance. No, he might sue me. He said at the end of it, i have to think of a way of getting my own back on you and i was, like, really . Bodyguards, where are you . He didnt needless to say, but that instant reaction when they havent enjoyed it. They slightly know when they come on, they often have a sense of whats in store, theyre perhaps more prepared to go. I think the extra time we have really matters. From the word go. Yes. And they hadnt even given me a chance i was kicked under the table by one british politician. Youre kidding . Mo mowlam, mo mowlam, former Northern Ireland secretary. What, literally . After this interview, she was wearing these sharp heels and pointed toes and she kicked me under the table and she got me right in the shin. You might have deserved it i said, what did you do that for . She said, because youre a bustard. Were you . Had you been . I think its important that you give the same treatment to everybody and this is how the programme has lasted so long, youre as tough with everybody and you have to be. I want to say, here we are all talking about hardtalk and its funny, people might think theres competition between us, but actually whats nice is we are also committed to the programme that anybody, any one of us who has done a great hardtalk, i think great, its wonderful for the programme. Its a bond between us. It is. We share something really, really important. Weve bonded over this meal but i think im the only one whos done any eating. No dig in im going for the salami the old bbc sausage roll. Times have really moved on, havent they . Times have really moved on. Hello there. The Weather Story is pretty quiet for the next few days. A lot of dry weather, variable cloud, some sunshine, and generally light winds as well. It is all because of High Pressure. Now, during the course of the night, most places will be dry, maybe a little bit of light rain across the north west of scotland. More of a breeze here. Where you have the cloud, relatively mild, 7 9 degrees. Where the skies clear, cool, and A Touch Of Frost in some rural places, so a quiet looking start to thursday. Most of us will be seeing light winds, but across the north, High Pressure. In towards northern and western scotland, more of a strong, north westerly breeze. That will fit in quite a lot of cloud to the northern isles. West scotland, some drizzle, with the east of scotland potentially seeing some shelter, so you could be seeing some breaks and some sunshine. Variable cloud, maybe a bit of sunshine for northern england. I think much of wales and england, variable cloud and some sunny spells. I think probably the best of the sunshine in south wales and the south west of england, where we could make 15 or 16 degrees. On friday, a similar story. Light winds, variable cloud and also some sunshine. The High Pressure is with us for thursday and friday, but it moves position as we head towards the weekend. This is pretty crucial, because we then start to pull a southerly wind off the near continent. It is dry air, and eventually it will be warmer air, particularly as we head on into sunday. Notice the blue colours behind me, though. This is an approaching Weather Front, a cool mass of air which will arrive across the far north west of the country as the weekend wears on. So i think, for saturday, probably a greater chance of seeing more sunshine around. Temperatures up just that little bit. 15, 16, maybe 17 celsius. More cloud, though, across the north west of the country. It is looking pretty good for the grand national, as well. Aintree, a lot of dry weather, temperatures around the mid teens celsius. On sunday, that Weather Front approaches scotland. Strengthening winds, and feeling quite cool, outbreaks of rain. But for england and wales it is looking much sunnier, because we are pulling down to warmerand drierairoff the near continent. It is going to be really warm, temperatures in the low 20s celsius. We could make 23 degrees across the south east. So the main message for the next few days because of High Pressure, it is going to be largely dry, with light winds. There will be some sunshine around. It is going to get warmer this weekend, especially on sunday. Like i mentioned, that weatherfront with the cold air behind it spreads its way southwards during monday. So a cloudy, cool day generally. Temperatures in the north struggling to get much above eight or nine degrees. Still fairly mild in the south east. Welcome to bbc news. I am Sharanjit Leyl in singapore. The headlines. As persecution of Rohingya Muslims intensifies, we ask the leader of myanmar if she is failing to stop Ethnic Cleansing. I dont think there is any Ethnic Cleansing going on. That is a strong expression to use for what is happening. The us signals a tough new start on syria after a chemical weapons attack that left 70 dead. I will tell you, it has already happened. My attitude towards syria and Bashar Al Assad has changed. The attack brings anger and condemnation to the un, but it is feared russia could be to demands foran is feared russia could be to demands for an investigation
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