hardtop. i am stephen sackur and today i am joined by an audience here that the bbc radio sheffield. to celebrate 20 years of hardtalk interviews. —— stephen sackur. who better to have on our birthday than sir ian mckellen. whether you think of immers richard iii or gandalf, you will that he has won hearts and accolades around the world. notjust for decades of work on screen but his passion of public accuracy, particularly on the issue of gay rights. please give a warm welcome to ian mckellen. that was quite welcome. ian mckellen, welcome to hardtalk. thank you. there's a lot to talk about both personal and in terms of your campaigning. but there are very few actors with the diversity you have offered your audiences, from the great shakespearean roles to comic book characters in x—men. is there a common thread through everything you have done? the common thread is there is no common thread. there is a variety. what i have always admired in my youth was people playing different salts of parts in different environments. i was proud of having played with or 20, which isa drag of having played with or 20, which is a drag role in a british christmas entertainment, or pantomime. i was as proud of that as i was playing king lear. you did exploring —— you did a show exploring —— you did a show exploring your own recent ancestry. with your mother, and she died when you're very young, just 12, you said you're very young, just 12, you said you thought she would not mind if you thought she would not mind if you were an actor because she gave —— she thought that actors get so much entertainment to people. a very early memory is being bathed by my mother. 0nly early memory is being bathed by my mother. only once a week, actually! during which, son one would expect more! it was the war. as she was watching me, she would tell me the story of the radio programme she had heard the night before after i had gone to bed. as a family, we went out more to the theatre than the cinema. i went with them at an early age and was intrigued and excited to think that it was possible for me to discover how it was done. it being all that scenery, how you learned your lines, what happened behind the door on the stage. backstage is still the most thrilling place. as we came out to me the audience, that johnny backstage, you said you're getting nervous, iwas johnny backstage, you said you're getting nervous, i was getting excited. what about you set your -- your sexuality and choices. when you we re your sexuality and choices. when you were a years, being gay to be a criminal offence. as remains in many countries around the world, yes. was at the space where you could find a way to feel much more yourself, to express your identity in the way you could not outside the theatre? that is exactly the point. it was illegal for me to declare my lover do anything about it. in the theatre, oi’ anything about it. in the theatre, or at least standing on the stage, i could disguise it and, speaking someone could disguise it and, speaking someone else's words, have an emotionalfreedom i was not someone else's words, have an emotional freedom i was not allowed in my own life. many professional actors are gay for the same reasons that i took up the job. because i wa nt to that i took up the job. because i want to explore this campaigning you have chosen to do on the gay rights issue, i think it is important to ask you why, even after homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, 8022 years to come out publicly. —— it took you 22 years. am not proud of it. when you hear me going on and on and my friends say, will you stop talking about being 93v? will you stop talking about being gay? i do it because for so many yea rs i felt gay? i do it because for so many years i felt i could not. i am doing it on behalf of other kids like me, growing up in a similar situation, perhaps because of the attitudes of theirfamily or socially perhaps because of the attitudes of their family or socially well they live. i do it on their behalf. so why did it take so long?” live. i do it on their behalf. so why did it take so long? i was not the only one who took so long. i was the only one who took so long. i was the second person ever to be knighted who was openly gave. the first was angus wilson, the novels. there were great restrictions, even after the law was gradually changing. gay people were meant to stay in their place and that place probably was what we call the closet. which was not announcing yourself and drawing attention to yourself. it did mean you were still, as your acting career really took off through the 1970s and 1980s and you are getting more than one important roles and beginning to make that transition, from stage and adding screen to that, you were bottling a lot of things up.|j adding screen to that, you were bottling a lot of things up. i was. i wonder, looking bottling a lot of things up. i was. iwonder, looking back, whether you feel you would have been a better actor younger if you had been more public about your identity. actor younger if you had been more public about your identitylj actor younger if you had been more public about your identity. i think, probably. it is certainly true of me and practically every person i know in this industry who declared the sexuality that life becomes better in every possible way once you're honest. and that affects your work. and my work, which is dealing with honesty and truth about human nature, was likely to be more convincing. that is what friends and collea g u es convincing. that is what friends and colleagues said. 0vernight, my acting took on a depth that had not happened before because i am the longer disguising. i am happened before because i am the longer disguising. iam now revealing. it is interesting that you say that. because when one looks in your transition from being one of the greats in the theatre to also becoming an extraordinarily successful on—screen actor, in some ways, it came quite late in your career. it came after i came out. after i said i was gay, suddenly this film working my way! —— work came my way. butjust in terms of technique as much as anything, and how you express yourself, you have talked about the way in which, earlier in your career, you have actually felt, looking back, that you were not an actor who was appropriate for the movies. why?“ you're playing in a large theatre, 2000 people, you have a responsibility, i think, 2000 people, you have a responsibility, ithink, to 2000 people, you have a responsibility, i think, to make sure that they can all year and see you and understand what you're up to. that can involve, if you're going to reach an audience, way up there, probably a few hand gestures and open expression. danielle, will the critics normally sit, it does not seem very convincing. it is a problem. how do you act in a large theatre? i elected to make it big rather than cut those people out. that is where i used to sit and will the students, those who do not have much money, would sit. that is where my friends are. but it changed for me when i did a production of macbeth, still available on video... laughter with judi dench, macbeth, still available on video... laughter withjudi dench, the greatest river bay. in a tiny theatre. —— the great is that there will ever be. the comment on acting the part was it was inappropriate. you had to be, exist. it meant conversation rather than declaration and rhetoric. 0nce conversation rather than declaration and rhetoric. once i had done that, i never really wanted to work in a big theatre again. i then started to work in the smallest fields above all, which is cinema, will the camera can be close to you than anybody. there have been critics, perhaps one of the most famous, was fellow actor richard harris. elon to you and derekjacobi together. and kenneth branagh. i was in good company. he said, these guys are technically brilliant but passionless. yes. nonsense. when he died, he played dumbledore, the wizard. i played the real wizard! you're ina wizard. i played the real wizard! you're in a different franchise! but when they called me up and said, would i be interested in being in the harry potter films, would i be interested in being in the harry potterfilms, they would i be interested in being in the harry potter films, they do not say what part. i worked out what they were thinking and i couldn't. i could not take over part from an actor who i knew did not approve of me. interesting. you could have been dumbledore? sometimes, when i see the posters of michael gambon, who plays dumbledore, i think, michael gambon, who plays dumbledore, ithink, some michael gambon, who plays dumbledore, i think, some things, michael gambon, who plays dumbledore, ithink, some things, it is me! we get asked for each other‘s autograph. we have to get the wizards. gandalf became you, you begin to gandalf —— became gandalf. it was an extraordinary bonding of character and actor. you chose, not so character and actor. you chose, not so long ago, that when you finally leave this mortal coil, your gravestone will simply say, played gandalf, came out. here lies gandalf. yes, that would do, wouldn't it? it is the two sides of my life which have meant a great deal to me. being a famous —— as famous as the actor playing gandalf was bound to be, looking back on it, andi was bound to be, looking back on it, and i don't begrudge it at all, but iam now and i don't begrudge it at all, but i am now in contact with allsorts of people, particularly very young people, particularly very young people all over the world who i could not possibly have known about. they have let me into their lives, to an extent. i visit schools quite a lot to talk about gay issues but i am welcome because it is gandalf. and they give me the time of day, which they probably would not if some old geezer strolled into the classroom. it is a very, very personal, wonderful thing. which i don't feel about other parts. you do not feel that diminishes some of the other, some might say, more profound parts and plays and films? no. because it is true. the text ofjrr tolkien's dialogue is not up to shakespeare. nor is it trying to be. it isa shakespeare. nor is it trying to be. it is a different sort of story telling. but to be part of the culture, which is what gandalf has a lwa ys culture, which is what gandalf has always been. gandalf the president was in la but in before the films we re was in la but in before the films were made. to be able to impersonate this character, already in the zeitgeist and meant a great deal as an example of how to behave in the world, which is so young people respond to him, what a privilege. you have done a lot of tosh, as well. i wondered how long it would be! before we got onto hardtalk. well, x—men... be! before we got onto hardtalk. well, x-men... x-men is not be! before we got onto hardtalk. well, x-men. .. x-men is not tosh. be! before we got onto hardtalk. well, x-men... x-men is not tosh. is there a role you have turned over being too puerile silly? about once a week. no, no, i have said it many times. x—men is a discussion in a very popularform of times. x—men is a discussion in a very popular form of what the civil rights movement does. it is not true of superman and those guys, those weren't so suddenly become super men by changing their underwear, it seems to me. what other tosh? i'm thinking, i probably have! maybe i am picking away at the wrong thing, but it seems to me there is an insecurity in acting. it is a thing that it insecurity in acting. it is a thing thatitis insecurity in acting. it is a thing that it is a very insecure profession. you're great, great uncle died in the workers. i wonder whether that insecurity, even today, is still a part of your make—up. well, i am excluding narrowly lucky as an actor from that point of view. i have never been out of work. i have taken work that other actors of my standing and generation might not have done because it was not much money involved beremend going away from home. but whether you're working on not working, —— or not working, to feel part of a group, a tribe of people who know that if i play is working well, the relationship between new orleans and performance —— between the audience and performer ‘s... and the writer, he might be long dead, provide something magical. stories are what we as human beings are good at doing. we cannot manage without stories. when it happens in the theatre and works well, even if you are going to be will to work for the rest of the year, you are blessed. and you're doing it in the company of people who share excitement. it isa of people who share excitement. it is a fantasticjob. of people who share excitement. it is a fantastic job. there is an irony. we have touched on it already. after you came out, your career took off. particularly in the movies. but there has never been and openly gay winner of best actor at the oscars. no. the university of southern california did an analysis of the top 100 movies in 2015. the latest. and they found that 82 of those top 100 movies do not depict a single lgbt speaking or named character. yes. we had that hash tag 0scars saw white. do we need a hash tag 0scars so straight? 0scars saw white. do we need a hash tag oscars so straight? you should not look to hollywood for social advance. laughter. ido advance. laughter. i do not mean to be flippant, but you looked to hollywood for financial advice. does that mean you have to hold your nose? no, you don't have to. you just go to hollywood. you do your work somewhere else. —— you just don't go to hollywood. the movies that we all love and relish our fantasy. that is why we love them. it is not the real world. there are plenty of wonderful films being made about the real world but they do not come out of what we think of as traditionally the hollywood machine. geena davis, for example, and a bunch of women actors and directors are really trying to change the way that women are depicted on the big screen. particularly in hollywood. we now get onto the campaigning work you do. this part of your campaigning work to try and change the way that film as a business works? no. my campaigning is all about allowing people to be themselves, whatever label they put on themselves. can we really grumble when, finally, it was agreed that moonlight should be the 0scar film of the year, with a strong gay storyline? that comes out of gay people, and in that case, black people, wanting to tell a story to which the person responded. that people should be given the freedom to do that. but the campaign to say, right, we must employ more openly gay actors... i don't think that we get you very far. talking about going very far, you have become very active internationally with your gay rights campaigning. i know that you have been in russia recently. i also know that you're about to go to turkey. both of these places strike me as places where you will not be welcome and that, you could be in some danger. it did feel like that in russia. it was in the city of tchaikovsky, one of the greatest gay men to ever come out of russia, and the other politicians are homophobic. it means they have a fair distrust of gay people. as a visitor, trying to be myself, i have to be protected. with bodyguards? 0h, to be protected. with bodyguards? oh, yes. what difference do you feel you can make, as an outsider, albeit a celebrated famous one, coming into different countries with their own bodies and culture and lecturing them about the way they should organise their society and culture? how can that make a difference?” organise their society and culture? how can that make a difference? i do feel myself to be english, probably first, then british, then european and then internationalist. when you come out, you join a tribe that is all over the world. and ifeel i know what it is like to be pressed in russia because i remember what it used to be like here. i do have a story to tell, which is relevant. and the people, really, that i contact when i go abroad, if i am allowed, other local people who are trying, in their own way, to make their own lives easier. the lgbt people of russia, of whom there are millions. but very few are brave enough to express their individuality and be honest. and i just know that they are very grateful when you drive and you say, it'll probably be all right. keep at it, keep fighting. that is all i am really doing. occasionally, you can point out the facts that have got lost. in india, and kenya, they have laws which the british empire put in place. anti—gay laws. when we withdrew, we lefties bad laws behind. now these local laws are being defended by the indians and kenyons and they say, don't come to us kenyons and they say, don't come to us with your foreign idea. i want to say, no, iwant us with your foreign idea. i want to say, no, i want to take this away which we should have taken away when you left your country. we're almost out of time. i want to bring it back from the public ian mckellen to the private and deeply personal ian mckellen. it seems to me that you have always guarded your own private life. i know that at one point, you decide to write another biography. he took the money, the advance.” didn't. it was offered. you added it back and never actually got it. the point is, you had second thoughts. why? | point is, you had second thoughts. why? i don't think there is anything remarkable about my private life, from what i can observe. there is a clear distinction between saying, i am what i am and saying, this is what i do. i do not want to start talking about my relationships. that is not fair, unless the other person is not fair, unless the other person is with me talking about it as well. but as we autobiography is a very misleading. you get one side of the story. but on the principle, only issue, i can be bold. and knowing that i am in the right, standing on the moral high ground, that is easier. to be nosy, i will dig a bit more into the personal. you live in a country where things have changed and offa a country where things have changed and off a lot in your lifetime. frankly, if you well in your 20s or 30s now, you could, in a way that you could not have back then, you could have considered, you know, first of all, gay marriage. you could easily have had children, lots of children, whatever. you have talked about being the last of ian mckellens. and they send some things of melancholy —— a sense of melancholy in being the last of your line. do you think, if you had your life over, you would have liked all of that? the kids? i used to think the best thing about being gay was that you do not have to have kids. i mean, how many decent parents are there? the misery of the world comes because people had dreadful upbringing. it seems to me. so i feel like i escape that. also, i am extremely selfish. i can devote all my time to my career and do things around it without rushing back to change the nappies are going on holiday with all the kids are all that. hole-mac, how ghastly it sounds! —— oh. that. hole-mac, how ghastly it sounds! -- oh. but the thrill of my life and the possibility of a changing in the future is to see kids in school, and then talking about teenagers, who say, do not come here and talk about being gay. you are only talking about being gay because, for years, people have pointed that un said you're queer. you give yourself a more sympathetic label. we do not want labels. we do not know if we are gay or not. we might be straight one day, gave an excellent and i think, that is the future. —— and gave the next. thank you for talking to us. so ian mckellen. —— sir ian mckellen. good morning. we have some rain working its way in from the west. before we take a look at that, let's look at some of the highlights of monday. a beautiful weather watchers pictures sent in from cambridge i. a lovely afternoon. highs of 18 celsius. but the storm clouds gala dinner argyll & bute. very atmospheric shot here. the rain arriving from the west. it is quite fragmented and moving erratically eastwards over the next few hours, behind it, clear skies and a fresh start of the day across scotland of an island —— and northern ireland. the bulk of the rain problem with sitting across the south coast, oxfordshire, east anglia and south—east corner. even then, it'll be quite light well fragmented. further north, wiki the cloud and la morning mist in this and murkiness. there is a bit more of a breeze in the far north and west and that could continue to drift in 12 showers in the northern and western isles. that wind willjust showers in the northern and western isles. that wind will just take showers in the northern and western isles. that wind willjust take the edge off things, i suspect, particularly on exposed coasts. sunshine continues in north—west england, wales and the south—west by the end of the day. perhaps just the midlands and eastern england will stay quickly day and again, still with the odd spot or two of rain. temperatures a little bit more subduedin temperatures a little bit more subdued in the south—east. highs around 15 celsius. eight where —— if you're heading off to premiership matches and evening, you will not be disappointed with this story. 8pm kick—off. it is dark, the cloud is well broken. it is not too cold at 8-10 well broken. it is not too cold at 8—10 celsius. similar story but windy possibly in scotland. it will make it feel a bit chilly but it will be dry and that is probably the most important thing. high pressure stays with us through the middle of the week. the weather fronts toppling over that high and it will continue to stay quite windy and is colin. in fact, continue to stay quite windy and is colin. infact, on continue to stay quite windy and is colin. in fact, on wednesday, we could maybe see severe gales of the extreme north and a scattering of showers, some quite heavy as well, into the far north—west. elsewhere, decent spells sunshine. some fair weather cloud bubbling up through the afternoon with temperatures pegged back a little bit. nevertheless, 8—111 celsius the high. that is not too bad. similar story for the end of the working week, thursday and friday. starting of relatively sunny, little bit of cloud into the afternoon. welcome to bbc news, broadcasting to viewers in north america and around the globe. my name is mike embley. our top stories: in his home city, president putin lays flowers near the scene of the st petersburg metro blast. 11 died and authorities believe it was a terrorist attack. there was a huge bang. it was deafening. i was sitting next to a metal railing and i think it saved my life. everyone was knocked in one direction by the blast. as colombians begin to bury their dead, the authorities declare a national emergency, but hundreds are still missing. a warm welcome at the white house. president trump meets his egyptian counterpart and declares a reboot in relations. why china is experiencing a baby boom, driven partly by older mothers. we have a special report.