Sackur. Just how ugly is britains divorce from the eu going to be, and how damaging for the unhappy couple . As british mps debate the formal triggering of the effort says, my guest is an eu politician who will be at the heart of the complex negotiations over a brexit deal. Belgiums former Prime Minister and current mep Guy Verhofstadt has warned britain to expect no favours as it heads for the expert, but how confrontational is he prepared to be . Guy verhofstadt, welcome to hardtalk. I want to talk about brexit with you but i dont want to start with the detail, i want to start with the detail, i want to start with the contest. When the British Public voted for brexit on june 23, 2016 barack obama British Public voted for brexit on june 23,2016 barack obama was president of the United States. Now the white house is occupied by donald trump. To what extent do you think this fundamental shift in global politics, the most important power in the world after all, how important is that as a change context for brexit . I think it gives an opportunity for the european side to show and to work on more unity, because lets be honest, what trump has said since now in a few days and weeks is very hostile towards europe and he is saying openly that he thinks that europe could disintegrate further. He thinks more european members of the eu Will Follow Britain out of the door and he thinks it is a good thing. He thinks it is a good thing to have a disintegrated European Union while i think it is quite the opposite. In fa ct think it is quite the opposite. In fact the interest of the americans isnt in a disintegrated europe. The interest in america is to have a very united european ally. You can only walk on two legs. Trump needs an American Lake and a european leg. Whatever your sceptical view of donald trump as president and as an individual, the fact is the European Union needs to be closely allied with the United States of america, it isa with the United States of america, it is a pillar of European Security policy. That is what he is putting in danger. With respect, so are you. Some of the things you have said are actually extraordinary. You have said, you said this yesterday, i am quoting you, under the enormous political influence of trumps political influence of trumps political adviser stephen bannon, he sent people to berlin and paris to prepare the ground for similar referendum as that seen in britain. Yes, exactly. Well, what evidence, you have set essentially he is taking active steps to undermine the European Union. Stephen bannon, eve ryo ne European Union. Stephen bannon, everyone knows it is an extreme right wing newspaper he is promoting. In fact, right wing newspaper he is promoting. Infact, extreme right wing radical views. Promoting. Infact, extreme rightwing radicalviews. It promoting. Infact, extreme rightwing radical views. It is promoting. Infact, extreme rightwing radicalviews. It is not the drum administration. You are saying hostile things about this. am surprised you have said it is not the trump administration. Mr bannon has been appointed as a member of the National Security council of the us. Even outside. You said something that is happening at a news website. I think it is maybe not the trump administration, but mr stephen bannon, the special adviser of donald trump. We can discuss the influence of mr bannon on mr trump, what i see is what mr trump is saying. Crosstalk his quotes have been very clear. So i yours. I hope to be clear. That is why i am in politics. Normally you have the politics of politicians may be here who are trying to escape the question. Imo statements try never to escape the question. Yes, lets think about your choice of words. To escape the question. Yes, lets think about your choice of wordsm makes it boring, maybe. It makes it fascinating. My view, you say, is we have a third front undermining the eu and that is donald trump. It is a word i am coming back to, hostility. You are downright hostile to what. Iam not you are downright hostile to what. I am not saying i am you are downright hostile to what. Iam not saying i am not you are downright hostile to what. I am not saying i am not hostile. I am only seeing and hearing what mr trump is saying. 0k, let me is plain maybe. I think we have first of all the treachery in europe and a radical islam, jihadists, secondly we have a threat by putin, the autocrat in the kremlin who tries to divide europe, already years from now, and now we have an american president who is not longer seeing the american unity, the american unity as a pillar for his foreign policy. And he is saying openly that he hopes for a disintegration of the European Union. So i think we are very much alone. I think we are for the moment in an existential moment for the European Union and i hope that my response to this is that only European Unity can be the answer. I am mindful you only European Unity can be the answer. I am mindfulyou havejust written this book. That is my book about it. Europes last chance, why the european states, the subtitle, must form a European Union. Ironically it is a phrase from the american constitution. Yes, exactly. It will be difficult right now to persuade europeans that they should regard as a model the federal United States of america, but that is obviously. It is about donald trump now. Donald trump is the same as the american institutions. What i have seen is america after the financial crisis was capable to react immediately to the financial crisis. The cleaning up of the banks, the investment programme, quantitative easing. Well, if i banks, the investment programme, quantitative easing. Well, ifi look to europe, we are not a union, in fa ct. To europe, we are not a union, in fact. What we are is a loose confederation of nationstates still based on unanimity and we are always acting too little too late, for example, in the financial crisis, in migration. So this book is even more eurosceptic than all the eurosceptic books that have been published in the united kingdom. You think the formulation doesnt work. It cannot survive. You made an interesting point about the importance of nationstates. What donald trump is, at a validly a self confessed american nationalists, America First is his message and that is a nationalists message, it is echoed across europe in different nationstates where politicians are winning with a nationalists message avowedly. Politicians are winning with a nationalists message avowedlym is not echoed. It is the opposite. It was first born in europe. Nationalism has been born in europe. Nationalism has been born in europe. Nationalism has been born in europe. Nationalism has not been bought outside europe. More than that, i think it is a tricky thing which is happening. That is that an american president is bidding on more nationalism in europe. You know what it means, it is not nationalists based on values, it is nationalism based on values, it is nationalism based on values, it is nationalism based on ethnicity. And what nationalism has done in the last 100 yea rs nationalism has done in the last 100 years in europe, we all know it 20 million victims, all of this is based on nationalism. So an american president thinking, European Unity is not necessary, lets go back to national identity, ideas of nationalism. That is Playing With Fire in europe. This is not america. This is europe. We have the holocaust, we had. Well, you can. | holocaust, we had. Well, you can. Ithink it is a holocaust, we had. Well, you can. I think it is a fair argument. You can cite the events of the 1930s and 19405 at argument. You can cite the events of the 19305 and 19405 at me but lets stick with what happened today. Yes, but it can come back. Lets look at the context of brexit. I come back to the basic point about the situation today in europe. You have just seem to reason in the white house with donald trump talking about the state Fa5t Alliance Between Britain and europe. Youve heard donald trump saying that he is going to seek a very quick trade deal with britain. Talking in the mo5t deal with britain. Talking in the most Positive Term5About Britain po5t brexit. It weakens your hand as an eu negotiator, doe5 po5t brexit. It weakens your hand as an eu negotiator, does it not, that britain is now looking at history close relationship with donald trump. I am not reasoning in those term5 because i know that the interest of the uk is more in europe than in the us. You know the figures. You know the figures. 44 of the export5 figures. You know the figures. 44 of the exports of britain goe5 figures. You know the figures. 44 of the exports of britain goes to the continent, to europe. 0nly12 goe5 the continent, to europe. 0nly12 goes to the us. So whatever Trade Agreement is made between the us and the uk, the main interest of the british industry, the british companies, workers and citizens 5it5 in europe. It is in europe. And so the5e in europe. It is in europe. And so these negotiations will be very important. And i am very open about it. I think that fairness is the ba5ic it. I think that fairness is the basic principle we need to apply in the5e basic principle we need to apply in these negotiations. So when theresa may says, alongside donald trump, that, as you, she said to donald, a5 you renew your nation, we renew ours, you renew your nation, we renew our5, the opportunity is here to renew the Special Relationship, the Po5t Eu Britain and trumps america will lead again, your response is . My will lead again, your response is . My response was yesterday industry i5 my response was yesterday industry is wonderful, i think, i my response was yesterday industry is wonderful, ithink, i have my response was yesterday industry is wonderful, i think, i have seen thousands and thousands of people not agree with this in The Street I5 not agree with this in the street is wonderful. I dont agree in the rhetorical or the narrative of trump. I think it is devastating. Al5o trump. I think it is devastating. Also for the american economy. Protectionism, that is also part of his narrative, how you can make an agreement between the uk, which is an open 5ociety who believes in trade, i think, an open 5ociety who believes in trade, ithink, and an open 5ociety who believes in trade, i think, and on the other hand an american president who is seeing every Trade Deficit with whatever country as a threat. And there is a Trade Deficit from the us towards the uk. So, good luck with it. I think it is more interesting for the uk authorities to Work Together on a Fair Partnership with the European Union because that is the European Union because that is the biggest market for the british industry. And i want to tease out what you mean by a Fair Partnership ina what you mean by a Fair Partnership in a moment but before we get to the details on more specific point which i think ari5e5 details on more specific point which i think arises out of what we see in the United States and what we heard from theresa may and that is a question about security. We will get to economics. 0n 5ecurity, question about security. We will get to economics. 0n security, you know as well as i do that britain has been a linchpin of europeans of 5ecurity, been a linchpin of europeans of security, the armed forces, Intelligence Services are superior to most in europe, if you talk to people in germany, poland, the baltic republic, they say we need a close security relationship with britain come what may, whether brexit happens or not. That is also my point. I think we have to discuss not only the Economic Partnership between the uk and European Union. It will be necessary, be5ide5 between the uk and European Union. It will be necessary, besides that also, to talk about internal and external 5ecurity. What i dont want it external 5ecurity. What i dont want itis external 5ecurity. What i dont want it is not my position. Leverage to the uk. In a minute. It is what i wa nt to to the uk. In a minute. It is what i want to say. I dont want a trade off between the economic di5cu55ion trade off between the economic discussion we will do and on the other hand the question of internal external 5ecurity. Other hand the question of internal external security. I dont think we can makea external security. I dont think we can make a trade deal between. Germany has already indicated. Ye5, germany has already indicated. Yes, but lets be honest the important thing to do on the Security Issue from the european side is to create a European Defence union a5 side is to create a European Defence union as fast as possible. You know the figures. If you dont have britain it would devalue. You know the figures, 4 we spend on military. We are only capable to do 10 12 of the military. We are only capable to do 10 12 of the operations of the american army. I am no mathematician. I am a lawyer. I know it means, these figures, we are three orfour time5 it means, these figures, we are three or four times less effective. And why are we le55 three or four times less effective. And why are we less effective first remark we dont have a European Defence community. We dedicate everything 28 times between the 28 member states. I think this whole di5cu55ion member states. I think this whole discussion on security, internal and external, i5 discussion on security, internal and external, is a good chance to create finally what we needed to already do decades ago, that is to create a European Defence union. Right, well. European defence union. Right, well. That European Defence union. Right, well. That is also in the book. Lets get to the nitty gritty of negotiating a complex deal with the uk Hone5t Departure from the European Union. Just very quickfire practical questions. You said reasonably you thought getting a trade deal in the two years timeframe Wa5 Trade Deal in the two years timeframe was impossible. You stick to that . I think it is impossible. Everybody knows it is impossible. They dont think it is impossible in london. If you speak with mini5ter5 they think it is entirely possible. It is 40 50 they think it is entirely possible. It is 40 50 month. It is not two years. It is 40 50 month. It is not two yea r5. At it is 40 50 month. It is not two years. At the end of the process, before 2018, we need a Consent Procedure in the European Parliament because it has to give the green light for the final agreement. So we are going to start at the end of may, beginning ofjune, that gives us may, beginning ofjune, that gives u5a may, beginning ofjune, that gives us a timeframe of 14 or 15 months. What can you do in this timeframe . I think a Withdrawal Agreement is the first thing to do. Not an easy thing ican first thing to do. Not an easy thing i can tell you. To put it in common pa rla nce i can tell you. To put it in Common Parlance it is the divorce agreement. For the relationship it i5 agreement. For the relationship it is the divorce. Then you have to define the new relationship in general terms. There define the new relationship in generalterms. There is define the new relationship in general terms. There is debate about whether the sets of negotiations, one on the divorce arrangements and one on the divorce arrangements and one on the new relationship. Take the treaty, article 50 i5 one on the new relationship. Take the treaty, article 50 is clear. It 5ay5, the treaty, article 50 is clear. It says, first of all, start with your Withdrawal Agreement in the light of the framework of the future relationship. So you need to have an idea, not more than that, about your to continue. For example, there is an fta, it will take eight years. How many years in your opinion . think the whole period of transition and the period of transition will be two yea r5. And the period of transition will be two years. Besides the two years, we have the 14 or 15 months im talking about, you will need a whole tran5ition about, you will need a whole transition period about, you will need a whole tra nsition period to about, you will need a whole transition period to conclude what will be the final agreement with the uk. Thats a realistic timeframe. There are cracks appearing it seems to me in the eu position on some of the key Fundamental Po5ition5 to me in the eu position on some of the key fundamental positions of a negotiating deal. Use 5aid the key fundamental positions of a negotiating deal. Us