To dateline london. Im jane hill. This week, we discuss the latest uk proposals for leaving the European Union. Well look at india, 70 years since independence. And we ask, is there really a crisis in Donald Trumps white house . My guests today are the writer and political commentator adam raphael. Stephanie baker, Senior Writer with bloomberg news. London correspondent for le point and le soir, marc roche. And columnist for the national and the arab weekly, Rashmee Roshan lall. A warm welcome to you all. We will talk shortly about those brexit proposals. Lets start though this week with a word about the two terrorist attacks in spain, which killed 1a people in two cities and injured many more. Lets reflect on the events of a grim few days. Adam, your thoughts about yet another attack in europe, a similar modus operandi from the past too . Yes, what can one say . There are rumours of a cia warning to spain, we dont know if they are true or not but in a place like las ramblas, there is clearly a potential target there and it surprises me that a vehicle was able to drive for 500 metres down las ramblas. Another soft target, we see it time and again, marc . Yes, and after nice i said that that sort of place should not have cars allowed because it was a similar situation to the promenade des anglais. Basically there is very little to tell you other than that we have basically there is very little to say other than that we have and tell the police and also, i think we have to do better work at integrating the young muslim men who seem to be forgotten about in our multicultural societies. Well, the hunt is continuing, they think, for at least one more member. We will see what develops in the days ahead. Until that attack took place in barcelona, there was a lot of focus, again, as we have reflected many times, on brexit. The next round of formal brexit talks begin later this month. To that end, the British Government released its position paper this week about its ambitions for ireland and particularly the border. The Prime Minister theresa may was adamant about the need to maintain an open border between Northern Ireland and the republic when the uk leaves the Customs Union. She said she wants easy movement for both people and goods, much as exists today. But the European Commission swiftly retorted that frictionless trade isnt possible outside the Single Market. Well discuss whether the position paper has thrown up more questions than answers. What do you think, adam . Im afraid we are still in the delusional stage in this country. These two papers are at least some advance towards reality, but. For instance, the brexit secretary david davis said that the talks with europe were going incredibly well. Actually they are not. They are going incredibly badly. Fundamental dishonesty amongst the politicians in this country. The cabinet is split three ways, were in a very bad hole. It is only going to be a question of time before this is revealed and the British Public realise they have been sold a total pup. What happens then, goodness only knows but i think these two papers, at least there is a transitional deal acceptance, which is important, because the idea of marching off a cliff face would be a disaster for everyone in this country, not just for business but for ordinary working people as well. Were slowly moving towards reality but my goodness, the europeans are right when they say we are still in never never land. Many Business Leaders have said that this paper gives us clarity. We know that business likes certainty, but it does not get to the heart about what we do about the Customs Union. Well, trade is essential. There will be an agreement on the eu citizens, there will be an agreement on ireland. The two main issues are the divorce bill, that will be the big issue, especially trade, because the british want to have it all, they want to negotiate trade deals before they have left the European Union which is impossible. The situation is that the European Union is very strong and united, 27, and the british are divided. So the clock is. Clicking. Its certainly ticking, thats for sure and the clock is ticking and we have lost one year because of the political situation in britain and the British Government is in a weak position because it is divided, as adam said, and political opinion and Business Opinion is also divided. Europe is very united. Stephanie. I think business is united, comparatively speaking, certainly compared to the cabinet and i think this week, finally, number ten has come out with policy proposals but they picked the two most difficult issues customs and Northern Ireland. It is definitely a victory for the businesses saying we need a transition period, but it seems what they are proposing is notjust short on details but very unrealistic that the uk would be out of the Single Market and out of the Customs Union but wed be able to negotiate a similar relationship that closely resembles what we have now. All the while not having any of the obligations of freedom of movement or paying into the eu budget. It sounds great, but why would the eu agree to any of that . The hint in this is that they will have some great new it system that will be the magical solution to solving these problems. I have spoken to consultants that have said that actually that is far off, it is very costly, many years to go before it becomes a reality. So what they are proposing, i think its unrealistic and on top of that, i would say that actually, the Customs Union is only part of the problem. People forget that the british economy, 80 of it is services, which is not affected by this. The big prize at the end of the day is if they can get a deal on services to protect the british economy. I woke up the other day listening to the brexit secretary, david davis, talking about how ambiguity is deliberate, the lack of clarity is a good thing, and i felt. I was not around in 1947 when britain was leaving india, but my grandparents, my parents generation, would probably have recognised the brexit chaos. At that time there was a much shorter turnaround of time, there was a great lack of information provided. In fact, lord mountbatten, the last viceroy to india, he did not allow the new borders of india and pakistan to be announced until after independence day. At that time, you could say that perhaps that is all right because at least the british had to just worry or not worry about all of those natives, millions of indians and the new country of pakistan. But the confusion that has been created here and the polarisation that is allowed because of the lack of information, you wonder why britain would want to do it to themselves. Its their own future they are playing with. Because 52 of the population voted for it and plenty watching this programme will believe that things arent going terribly, things are going as they should, this is what they voted for, this is what they want. The lack of clarity, the lack of information. So, one day you read that 759 International Trade agreements and deals have to be negotiated by britain right after brexit. The other day you read that there is no reason to have any import tariffs at all, lets go off and buy oranges cheaper from south africa and buy from tunisia because the eu levies very heavy import tariffs on them. It will be fine. Perhaps there is a bit of this and that, but it could lower the temperature if the government used some of the information it is getting and provided it to people to allow them to test the limits of politics, as decent and responsive citizens. The government has fundamentally disagreed. You mentioned 52 voted, they did, but the latest ipsos mori poll published by the economist suggest that three quarters of the people believe that britain is on the wrong track. That does not mean that they want to get out, that is by no means clear and im not suggesting that if there was a referendum tomorrow that people would change their minds and choose to stay back. Its very unclear. Public opinion is extremely fluid and very, very uncertain and the divisions in the cabinet, to some extent, reflect that. No one really knows where they are. The politicians, frankly. I dont make a great case for journalists, but we can rightly or wrongly, speak honestly. Many of the politicians cannot speak honestly because they darent do so that because theyre too frightened because they dont know which way it is all going. We are left in the hands of these characters, liam fox, david davis. Borisjohnson. I personally have very little confidence in them as a trio to negotiate our way in this difficult task. Particularly at a time when the European Union is doing extremely well, the euro is high, germany and france are relaunching their politics. It looks like on the one hand, you have britain which cannot get a position and the European Union, which goes forward with or without britain. Adam, you said earlier, its not going well, it is going badly. Actually, to what extent do any of us know that . Does anyone go into a negotiation. . You dont put all of your cards on the table, do you . That is the process of a negotiation. At least they are behind schedule, now it looks like the trade talks in october could be delayed until december. They are behind schedule. Thats clear. Yes, in terms of the timetable perhaps. The level of snarkiness on on social media and the bad tempers and everyone telling us that they want brexit reversed or not reversed, i think a lot of this has been created because people dont know. There will be trade offs. For some people who want to leave the European Union, it is fine, that there will be trade offs. Some people will be worse off in some ways but better off in other ways. But let people know. The uk government is going to be trusted enough to be not thought of as giving alternative facts. For the europeans, brexit will take place. I love the idea that marc says that all 27 are wonderfully united. They are its for the birds, marc. You wait, their divisions. Thats the typical british hope. We are united to resist the british proposal. You might be right on that. To return to the specific point of ireland, which is what the position paper was about. Stephanie is right to say that this is one of the trickiest areas in the negotiations, isnt it . And it ties in with the problem of britain wanting to bring down immigration but if you dont have a hard border it could be risky in terms of people smuggling, theyre all issues. Yes, for europe, there is a problem that we will have a frontier that will become fluid and not really policed because you will have smugglers, terrorists, traffickers of humans who will be able to go into the. The irish effectively have a veto. Frankly, if these proposals put forward by the British Government, whatever, unless they are acceptable to the irish government, it will be difficult for the eu to agree to them. So, i suspect that is one of the most difficult issues to resolve. I personally believe the money is not a huge thing, we will be paying billions anyway. In the divorce bill . But the trade and ireland, those are the key issues and frankly, we remain in a delusional phase in this country. On this i agree with marc. Especially having a government where the defence of the union is for survival and the union has an agenda in ireland, which is different from dublin. It seems like Everyone Wants the same thing, which is no hard border, but how do you get there . Its an external border to the eu, there will have to be checks on goods going to and from, whether that is a virtual border or not. People may be the easiest part of it but you already have french farmers talking about concerns about that being a back door route into the eu for agricultural products. Chlorinated chicken from the United States thats the future there is something to look forward to we can agree that the ireland issue is very particularly difficult with regard to brexit. We know the British Government talks confidently about doing trade with nations outside the eu. India is one of the key markets and this week that saw india mark its 70th year of independence. Trade and much else besides. Rashmee, how are relations between london and delhi at the moment . Polite. I know that sounds curiously bloodless and without passion, but perhaps thats not a bad thing. Because, you know, there has been enough passage of time for both countries, the relationship, the equation to evolve into a steady relationship, of Mutual Respect and all of that. That sounds quite diplomatic. Bear in mind too were talking about the 70th anniversary. 70 as a birthday is not particularly momentous, it is not life changing, it is not like a 215t or a 50th or a 75th, or 100th, so you have to look at the passage of time more closely and see where they are. I think i would describe the relationship as currently made up of the smirkers and the scoffers. The day after the brexit referendum occurred in june 2016, there were the smirkers who said, watch britain partition itself, let it feel the same pain of division that it had brought to the subcontinent, let us see what happens to it. So there was a bit of delight that was being taken at the predicament of britain. Then the scoffers will say that britain is this distant connection, a cousin seven times removed or whatever. Its only cultural relevance now is cricket and tea and the fact that there is a fading fondness for pg woodhouse, his writing and all of that. I dont think thats where we are, i think we should let the events of the past be in the history books but let them be in the history books. Let britain teach that history, contextualise it. As for trade, i do not think that is happening any time soon and the reason is that indians, just like other members of the commonwealth new zealand, australia, canada and so on they want to have mobility of people just as much as the mobility of cash and goods and investment, and britain has shown itself to be rather unwilling on that front. Unwelcoming, is that what you think . Yes, for example, foran indian to buy a two year visa to come to britain, costs four times what it costs someone from china. Indian students cannot work here after they finish studying. They are not allowed to come in that easily. Workers are not allowed. 30,000 indians were told that their work permits would not be renewed. They were told in april. There are issues and Indian Officials feel that quite strongly. If were going to do well after brexit, do we need to be more welcoming as a nation, is this a key stumbling block in terms of trade . I think that india is a key test case as to whether the uk can negotiate trade deals with other countries. India is not a Major Trading partner of the uk. It has a huge trade deficit with india, so doing a Free Trade Agreement with india is more of an advantage to britain than it is to india. Indias biggest trading partners are the us, china, and germany is in the top ten. We saw merkel this week saying that she wants to restart the eus talks with india on its own trade and investment agreement. And so, from the indian perspective, what is more important, a trade deal with the uk or the eu . I think thats self explanatory. Lets turn our attentions to the United States. White house chief strategist steve bannon is the latest member of the Trump Administration to be fired, at the end of a week in which the president s new chief of staff, john kelly, was photographed shaking his head and staring at the floor during a particularly chaotic News Conference which centred on the violence in charlottesville, virginia. Several commentators have described this week as a turning point for the Trump Administration. Do you think it might be, adam . No, i think its a sort of reality tv show. I dont know what the ending is but it is extraordinary, there has never been a presidency like it, i would rather doubt whether there will ever be a presidency like it again. Its an extraordinary phenomena, the white house is in chaos, but you can fire any number of people like steve bannon and what have you, and they have fired five people now, the likes of flynn and scaramucci and whoever, but in the end, it is the president who is the problem and hes tweeting at four oclock in the morning. Hes a very odd character and you could say that he is a reality show tv man, which is what i normally say, or you could say that he is a property speculator that got lucky or not lucky. Hes also a demagogic politician but he has shown himself to be particularly inept politically, in some of the statements that he has been making he obviously has no idea of how to manage men and women at all. So i have no idea what the outcome will be but i think the congressional elections, which come mid term will be pretty horrific and the real issue to me is, will republicans, at what stage will Senior Republicans say enough is enough . But thats the key point, isnt it . Im hoping stephanie will tell me that stephanie, what is your estimation . Notjust the steve bannon thing, its charlottesville, the violence, the murder of a young woman, and that was the point at which quite a few strategists i spoke to over the course of the week said charlottesville is something different, and in terms of the reaction of trump to this, this is a turning point. Do you see it like that . Many people have said this is a turning point, based on the things he has said previously, and it has not turned out like that. I do think this is different. It took a while but you finally had two dozen republicans come out and criticise trump by name for his equivocal respon