If we go to the e mail at the bottom, please. 11th of january 2006, to sean turner. Over the page. It says that a Sub Postmaster has reported that he again is experiencing problems of transfers, a 5th Of January experiencing problems of transfers, a 5th Ofjanuary 2006, which resulted in a loss of around £43,000, which has subsequently rectified itself. I know that there Sub Postmaster has reported this to horizon support you have said they cannot find any problem. Page six. Second e mail in the chain. This is an e mail the inquiry has seen before. It refers to the same issue. Second paragraph says, i havent looked at the recent evidence but i know in the recent evidence but i know in the past this site had hit the lock problem. This problem has been around for years and affect a number of sites most weeks. Finally, they have and something about it. Im interested in whether they really have fixed it, which is why i left the call open, to remind me to check over of the whole estate once ace 90 is life. This is a problem that appears to have caused a significant discrepancy. These are both fujitsu people . Discrepancy. These are both fuitsu eole . , these are both fuitsu people . Yes. Do ou these are both fuitsu people . Yes. Do you accept these are both fujitsu people . Yes. Do you accept this these are both fujitsu people . Yes. Do you accept this as these are both fujitsu people . Yes. Do you accept this as a these are both fujitsu people . Yes. Do you accept this as a problem that caused a significant discrepancy . I dont know. I am just reading this. I assume it might have done. I never heard of the riposte lock problem before. Let heard of the riposte lock problem before. ,. Before. Let me put it this way, if there was before. Let me put it this way, if there was a before. Let me put it this way, if there was a problem before. Let me put it this way, if there was a problem which before. Let me put it this way, if there was a problem which had l before. Let me put it this way, if. There was a problem which had the potential to cause discrepancy of over £40,000. Potential to cause discrepancy of over £40,000. Because it relates to. If it has been around for a number of years and affects most sites, most weeks, that this is an ethic and concern . I most weeks, that this is an ethic and concern . Most weeks, that this is an ethic and concern . I dont know if that roblem and concern . I dont know if that problem is and concern . I dont know if that problem is the and concern . I dont know if that problem is the same and concern . I dont know if that problem is the same as and concern . I dont know if that problem is the same as the problem is the same as the discrepancy. It is the same e mail. What i am seeing as i dont know if that has produced the discrepancy. If you can go up in the chain, please. That e mail is forwarded by mike stewart to lynn fallowfield, waiting for an update on calendar square, it goes on to say, i think i am inclined to wait and see if all these branches are ok after the s90. You said you were not aware of the riposte lock issue. Were you ever and of an issue at Callendar Square when you were director . Dont recall. A Board Meeting on 20th of april 2006. Get the entire Attendance List and there, please. In terms of it people, you have identified rick francis. Is there anybody else who had an It Background they are . There doesnt seem to be anybody that worked for ric in the Attendance List. Page ten. Down to the Operations Report section. It says, horizon s90. In the last e mail that said problem would be fixed with s90. Its as this release would, and at worst a number think it would do, transfer debit and credit card transactions, generic payments. And then, provide for a plethora of change requests across a variety of existing capabilities. Did the board interrogate what those changes would be . I cant remember. That could be something i would normally challenge. A plethora of change requests, you get great detail on the first three, and im sure they are bigger, and i am sure those things would be individually smaller, but it is our plethora of them, to use the word, that suggests it would require something, but i dont recall the conversation, i am just reading it cold here. Based on how the minutes were treated at post Office Limited, if there had been challenges, would they have been recorded in the minutes . I they have been recorded in the minutes . ,. , minutes . I would hope so. Do i take minutes . I would hope so. Do | take it minutes . I would hope so. Do i take it from minutes . I would hope so. Do i take it from that, minutes . I would hope so. | do i take it from that, what minutes . I would hope so. I do i take it from that, what is minutes . I would hope so. Do i take it from that, what is your evidence . Was it or was it not challenged . Challenged . Well, there is no evidence of challenged . Well, there is no evidence of it challenged . Well, there is no evidence of it being challenged . Well, there is no i evidence of it being challenged. Challenged . Well, there is no evidence of it being challenged. Why wouldnt it have been challenged . I dont know. There could have been some reassuring words when the thing was presented that saw off challenge, and this is how the person doing the minutes chose to summarise the conversation, but i literally do not remember the conversation. But there is clearly no Documentary Evidence of that that fourth bullet was proved. Do you think if there was a non exec on the board with It Experience that might have been challenged on a small likely to have been challenged . Challenged . Yes. And. Challenged . Yes. I and, interestingly, challenged . Yes. And, interestingly, it has challenged . Yes. And, interestingly, it has become much more common for it senior, or a recently retired senior it people, to join the boards of all sorts of businesses. I cheered a small bank and we had an it person on the board. It was always a struggle for him because he was not a banker stop that he was there because he was an it person and provided useful independent challenge, but there was no such person on the board at this time, otherthan no such person on the board at this time, other than employees. Executive members . Yes. Did you feel sick that did you feel able to challenge the executive . I felt able to challenge the executive that to a level compatible with my experience but i was not purporting to be an expert in every functioning activity. I had a bias in my personal background which said i was in operations type guy in my early years, not it, but processing operations. I had spent all my time in financial services. They were all the reasons why people felt i would be worth having on the board. But i wouldnt be able, and i did for a period at prudential, ran responsible for it, but i had an it director that reported to me, so i would not have been a detailed specialist. fist would not have been a detailed secialist. �. , would not have been a detailed secialist. �. , ,. , would not have been a detailed secialist. �. ,. , specialist. At any point did you ask for more support specialist. At any point did you ask for more support with specialist. At any point did you ask for more support with it, specialist. At any point did you ask for more support with it, to specialist. At any point did you ask for more support with it, to be specialist. At any point did you ask| for more support with it, to be able to challenge the executive and a more adequate way . The point was that there wasnt an appetite to have other Non Executives on post Office Limited board, and we did have the group It Director Sitting in the royal mail holding sport. What was happening was these things were going up to Royal Mail Holdings board, and there was more challenge available there, a group legal director, a group it director, and whilst they were employees, they were not planned and just post office, so there was a level of independence in the interrogation. And i dont think, i have to say i didnt ask, but i didnt ask as i didnt ask, but i didnt ask as i didnt expect the organisation would want me to be looking for independent and non execs to go on the post Office Limited board. Let as stand back a bit. Horizon records transactions for the post Office Business . See that again. Horizon records transactions for post Office Business . Yes. It for post Office Business . Yes. It provided for post Office Business . Yes. It provided the for post Office Business . Yes. It provided the data for post Office Business . Yes. It provided the data from for post Office Business . Yes it provided the data from which the statutory and management accounts would be compiled . Yes. As a director you had to have confidence in that data to be able to sign off on the manager of statutory accounts . Statutory accounts . Yes. It follows statutory accounts . Yes. It follows that statutory accounts . Yes. It follows that you statutory accounts . Yes. | it follows that you needed statutory accounts . Yes. It follows that you needed to be statutory accounts . Yes it follows that you needed to be any position to satisfy yourself that the it system that generated the data was sufficiently robust and reliable . ,. �. , data was sufficiently robust and reliable . ,. ~. ,. , reliable . Correct. And one of the race any of reliable . Correct. And one of the race any of the reliable . Correct. And one of the race any of the board reliable . Correct. And one of the race any of the board we reliable . Correct. And one of the race any of the board we get reliable . Correct. And one of thej race any of the board we get that level of comfort was from the external auditors, and the external auditors with run software against the system that was the primary driver of the business, and would run their own reconciliations, to make sure, does it add up this way, doesnt add up that way, there is the answer can the same . It is proprietary software that is used by all it firms to validate financial integrity of a system that they are auditing. That type of audit has the concept of materiality . Yes, it would. Could you explain what that is . It would not have to reconcile to the penny, but it would have to. We are not talking about the penny in these instances here. It is a pretty reliable way of proving whether or not a system is reconciling. That works for statutory accounts. In terms of the Sub Postmaster who may be facing. I in terms of the subpostmaster who may be facing may be facing. I was Ust Answering i may be facing. I was Ust Answering your may be facing. I wasjUst Answering your question. May be facing. I wasjust| answering your question on may be facing. I wasjUst Answering your question on accounts. I am asking another man. I answering your question on accounts. I am asking another man. I am asking another man. I agree. It doesnt i am asking another man. I agree. It doesnt help i am asking another man. I agree. It doesnt help the i am asking another man. I agree. It doesnt help the subpostmaster. | doesnt help the Sub Postmaster. If you have a Rounding Error that is no joke. If you have a Rounding Error that is nojoke. Every single if you have a Rounding Error that is no joke. Every single when needs to act. There could be compensating errors, for example. Was anyone on the Board Thinking of reliability of Horizon It System from perspective of Sub Postmaster is . From perspective of subpostmaster is . W from perspective of subpostmaster is . ,. , ~ from perspective of subpostmaster is . ,. , from perspective of subpostmaster is . ,. , ~ , is . Rick francis i think was focused on his user is . Rick francis i think was focused on his user community. Is . Rick francis i think was focused on his user community. He is . Rick francis i think was focused on his user community. He would l is . Rick francis i think was focused l on his user community. He would not have been thinking just about Sub Postmaster is, he would be looking that all people, all types of branch, that used horizon to process transactions. There were two audiences. What that horizon file for the person on the counter that was performing the transactions, that might actually work for the Sub Postmaster, but also what did it feel like for the customer on the other side of the counter receiving whatever it is they are purchasing . That is rick francis. In terms of us Managing Director, did you think about it from the perspective of the Sub Postmaster is . About it from the perspective of the subpostmaster is . Subpostmaster is . Yes, i did. It is onl a subpostmaster is . Yes, i did. It is only a slight subpostmaster is . Yes, i did. It is only a slight digression, subpostmaster is . Yes, i did. It is only a slight digression, but subpostmaster is . Yes, i did. It is only a slight digression, but when i j only a slight digression, but when i arrived ifelt only a slight digression, but when i arrived i felt the Sub Postmaster iiiilt unloved 7 felt unloved to a Degree Community felt unloved to a degree by post Office Limited. One of my early objectives was to dry and get close to the Sub Postmaster community, and dry and resolve that. One of the first things i did was establish a strong relationship with the chap who was then the federations top guy, and the top team, and i started. Can federations top guy, and the top team, and i started. Federations top guy, and the top team, and i started. Can you give a name . Colin baker. Then i started a programme of visits, which in the end i did for the entire three years and ten months that i was there, of going out, on a friday, and i would pick a part of the country, and then i would see to fade and the regional manager in the area, ive got time to visit five branches, give me a list of five that i can visit. And i went randomly and visited them. That was the biggest source of information. It wasntjust Sub Postmaster i visited Franchise Branches as well. That was my attempt to keep my feet on the ground as to what the organisation was thinking and worrying about. For those supposed matters in the room, you will guess, i got plenty of feedback. On that, you see in your statement you think youve visited about 250 branches over the period of years . Without criticising, i am not criticising the effort, but in terms of getting feedback from how users found the Horizon It System, that was a fairly small proportion of the number of users using it . Shall was a fairly small proportion of the number of users using it . Number of users using it . All the numbers in number of users using it . All the numbers in the number of users using it . All the numbers in the post number of users using it . All the numbers in the post Office Number of users using it . All the numbers in the post office are i numbers in the post office are very large. You do what you can do. All i can say is that i found, i can remember being in one village that will be nameless, and the Sub Postmistress took me back into her kitchen behind the shop, and went through the process of how Car Insurance was sold, and why she couldnt be bothered to sell it, because of the Tortuous Process that was followed, following which we change that. Was there anything else instead other than those four sets to try to understand how cyprus masters found the Horizon It System . I understand how cyprus masters found the Horizon It System . The Horizon It System . I wasnt ust talkin the Horizon It System . I wasnt Ust Tatktng About the Horizon It System . I wasnt ust talking about horizon i the Horizon It System . I wasnt ust Talking About Horizon Hi the Horizon It System . I wasntjust talking about Horizon It System, the Horizon It System . I wasntjust talking about Horizon It System, i l talking about Horizon It System, i was talking about the business as a whole. My whole. My question is about Horizon It System. My system. My primary focus was on the federation. I use the federation as the mouthpiece of the supposed