Welcome to News Hour extra with Owen Bennett Jones coming this week from Pakistan where we're asking the question what is an Islamic state over in Iraq in Syria Abu Bakar al Baghdadi has proclaimed to counterfeit but how do Muslims around the world Muslims in Pakistan know Muslims for that matter see that kind of food is it genuine or not and if not why not what are the characteristics of a true Islamic state we start this program in karate just not of the biggest city of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which has traces of the founder of the country Muhammad Ali Jinnah in fact I'm just outside a building. Jinnah house sometimes the place where Mohammad Ali Jinnah lived until his death in 1948 just one year after Pakistan was created. The Commonwealth youngest of the passing of the leader out and Governor General. His father was bringing pressure from all parts of the country to the grave where their beloved. Being buried in. The capital which he ended in trial. Ranking with Gandhi and narrow in the influence he will it is on his life's work fulfilled with the birth of Pakistan but what was that country that Jinnah founded in 1947 meant to be in his 1st speech to the Constituent Assembly he said You are free to go to your temples you're free to go to your mosques or to any other places of worship in the state of Pakistan you may belong to any religion costal creed that has nothing to do with the business of the states which raised the question was Pakistan is Pakistan an Islamic state or was it never meant to me. Well holding out discussion this week in the capital of Pakistan Islamabad where many of the constitutional and religious experts live and work and we have with us today a columnist and academic and and Islamist as well as some taped interviews with a couple of key players in Pakistan in this debate so let me introduce our panel we've got Musharraf Sidey Pakistani journalist former advisor to the foreign minister who combines I hope I'm saying the right thing being religiously divided politically liberal that could work that works good we've got Professor assistant professor Dr Samir as ease from the Islamic International University in Islamabad in your teaching lots of students how many students do you have perhaps we have about 25000 students 25 times yes united impact right I like that sounds like a big job and we've got to have to here's who's public policy analyst and media coordinator with John Islami the biggest religious party yet in Pakistan sometimes equated with the Muslim Brotherhood fairly or unfairly sometimes they have a common ideology So Professor let's start with you if I say the words Islamic state what do you mean by that. A state that defines itself as an Islamic state I think it says too that is being governed by the law endorsed by slum slummy a state governed by an Islamic law regulated by Islamic law I define it as a Slavic state so that would be Quranic law. Islamic Quranic I don't see a bifurcated between them but of course when and when we see Islamic So that could be Quranic and beyond and more and with that law be implemented and considered by clerics or by politicians. Bible so there's room for politicians as well as clear of course of course OK legislation Well we're just going to have those initial sort of thoughts on this matter Meszaros idea how do you if I say the word Islamic state what comes to your mind Sweden Switzerland any country in which people's dignity and people's ability to worship and express themselves reasonably freely is respected of course as a Muslim there are many things about some of the things that are said in countries like Sweden or the Netherlands that hurt my feelings but I find that those same societies at least until recently have been the most the most accommodating I wouldn't see even tolerant but they've been the ones that have been able to embrace the differences between people and put individual human beings and their dignity at a pedestal as compared to other considerations so it was also a confusing answer but Sweden would be an Islamic state so what you're saying is you think countries like Sweden embrace Islamic values more fully than many Muslim majority countries just because you're a Muslim majority country doesn't mean that you are per se Islamic and just because you're not Muslim doesn't mean you can't be Islamic So there are many aspects of both Western society and Eastern societies and Muslim majority side is that are genuinely Islamic and there are many that are not OK Let's just finally get an opening statement as it were from Zubair softer from jam out Islamic How do you are to the question I say Islamic state what comes to your mind I think there is no concept of Islamic state in Islam. If anyone who practices Islam any part of the world this would be this law mixed it there is no specific concept of Islamic state Islam did Mr TIFF but the issue of Islam is to laugh and laugh or deal video sovereignty of a law and if anyone who followed the rules of the law who followed the teachings of who follow the teachings of Muhammad said a lot leave us alone in order to lead the government in order to manage the governance system of any area it will be full of it it will be slamming straight so we cannot specify He said that Islamic spirit is a very different identities climaxed it is a very unique identity. With the sheriff in this context that if anyone does we don't if they followed the rules of Islam under the saucer and deal of law then it would be the Islamic state it will be the left but obviously in Sweden it wouldn't be Muslims not Muslim if Muslims out there if Muslims out there because Islam Mr deal with the Muslims not with the non muslims because most of the Muslims are in the majority. I'm sort of slightly confused by what you're saying so I thought you started out by saying it's an individual matter and if an individual believes and lives according to the religion that he's almost like an individual Islamic state but I'm not saying that you're saying you're saying it has removed the majority country and it has to be run by so yes Muslim majority country will make their own constitution make their own legal issues non muslim did not get it cannot do it Professor it seems to me your in the minority here in thinking that it should be Islamic law given down by politicians and clerics because that's not what we're hearing from the others because they've got a much more sort of value based approach would be for that could be right but of course there is there's no denying to the way you beast is a system of course the basic tenets of Islam they are of course all about the moral values the prophetic life as pattern of an ideal model characters I don't see a contradiction that and Islamic state is very if you want to see Islamic noms and values thriving in shows OK So to be a bit more specific about this we're going to hear from some of the moment from the camps of Islamic ideology in Pakistan so you know I ask you all whether you think you're living in an Islamic state I mean Pakistan according to its Constitution is an Islamic republic is it Islamic state Musharraf Oh absolutely the 1st sort of assertion in our Constitution is the sovereignty of God You know I have a lot of friends who are of a liberal persuasion who find this to be of problematic for me partly because of my personal faith but also from a secular standpoint the attribution of sovereignty which in another itself is an amorphous idea to God which is a very specific idea but in many ways the ultimately amorphous idea because God is everything and it has sovereignty and autonomy over everything so there's nothing that strange or jarring to me about sovereignty being vested in the concept of God or a. The unity sort of force out there call it a love ya way God. Whatever word we want to use for the almighty that in and of itself as an assertion is a very strong statement that the founders and the coders of the Constitution made in addition to that there is a whole infrastructure of Islamic branded or Muslim branded institutions of the state that seek to align public life with Muslim values so to the extent that you could have an Islamic state anywhere in the world today I don't think there's a better Laborde tree and I don't think there's a better example than Pakistan now that doesn't mean back sons been successful at being a sonic state there are a lot of things that Pakistan has done wrong and it has done wrong not just from a secular standpoint or a human rights standpoint or poverty standpoint but things that Pakistan has done wrong in terms of living up to the aspirations of the people who wrote the Constitution OK we're going to start it will come to you government I guess a starting on the issue of Pakistan itself and just for a view on that I've been speaking with Justice Mohammad Reza come he's a member of the Council of Islamic ideology and before that was a chief justice in the push our High Court and the council is set up in the Constitution so I asked him 1st of all what it does these scrutinise the laws and he'll commend to the parliament the council has got the constitutional mandate and the recommendations of the council are a binding on the band imminent parliament has to examine it and enact the laws in terms of the recommendation that in the period of 2 years of recommendations has the Parliament ever defined one of your proposals the parliament has not defy it and then there were a law has been brought to the parliament there it was in the act it but limit has never defeat so just to give an example of the kind of thing. You do in 1979980 you propose that alcohol should be strictly controlled Yeah that was a recommendation of the Council of Hispanic ideology that sales should be restricted and punishments should be increased and a law him into effect in accordance with the recommendation rights you called for stricter punishments and the parliament agreed so does that mean the Pakistan is an Islamic state so if Pakistan is an Islamic state and it has the ideology of being an Islamist it but there are a defects here and there and those defects of being there media then they are being killed we now have this organization called Islamic state run by Abu Bakar al Baghdadi. It's his Calaf it and Islamic state no no he is totally incorrect because in this land there is no terrorism in this land there is no extremism there is no permission to any person to somebody far for any reason and there is no concept that a person should be allowed to take action at his own street just as Mohammad Reza Khan that so let's just go to you professor and ask you whether you agree that Pakistan is Islamic state because I took it from your original answer that you'd be looking for something quite significantly different than the British closure laws that exist in Pakistan and. It doesn't seem like a very complete use of clerical law so what you think I absolutely agree with what respected just to says just said Pakistan is an Islamic state of course Islamic law of course it does not mean that each and every provision is supposed to be groomed or the solutions are to be given by the religion in predominantly when the country countries was majority is comprised of Muslims and this is how the founding father is the invasion the country is still of course initially the law of Britain and when this was adopted as a model law and then there were. The need of Islam is ation of law was being. Was be needed so Islamic laws were introduced and they are the part and parcel of the question to should I'm a little confused by this because even though it is British law here and OK you can you can play around this and adaptive of for instance the punishments laid out in the grandstanding to death is not part of the Pakistan system so surely it isn't an Islamic state in that regard if you never talk about an ideal a perfect Islamic Islamic state that each and every thing is to be of course they are there isn't certain things and this car is a for juris prudence. They have their own interpretations how a suden kind of punishment how it gets nullifies with over the period of time and and the time from Ocean Seas and on the all that but it does not mean that those set of punishments they are not to be they're not they are not made or they should not be made the part of the Constitution this is really should be let's take this issue because it's an easy one to follow and understand of taking your hand for theft it's in the Koran right so you would think that's correct yes but it doesn't happen in Pakistan so I don't see how you can say that this is an Islamic state is that fundamental bit of law is not in place now I wouldn't consider any confusion here as long as attempt is being reported and itif is receiving any kind of punishment through a trial being done in a court it is acceptable it's not only more that chopping off the hands is the only mode of punishment really OK Do you agree. That would seem to be the correct course I thought that would be necessary for Islamic state but you don't think so presented the maximum the maximum punishment and the parliament. Has legalise the punishment issues through the court and the. Station courts like the Supreme Court so did just I think that they are dealing with the execution of reducing the have issues but if there is a build Islamic state or the law for Dick and a law to cut the hands then we think the total. Teachings of Islam. Fully understand by the Muslims if they do not understand the teaching of Islam and guarding the children at that then we can not implement such bunny Schmidt's through the courts unless and until the people have complete environment of the so I think that Pakistan is an Islamic state but not but acting on the law because of the Pakistan or the Muslims of Pakistan they are not completely of you heard by the teaching of Islam and they are not completely practicing Islam I thought if they are completely practicing Islam then the complete dimensions of the Islam will be applicable on the society Musharraf. Sounds to me as if this concept of Islamic states being struck show why it has to cover both practicing and non-practicing societies I don't quite follow it well I do and I think it's perfectly natural for us to be in a place where Muslims that are committed to their faith see the evolution and evolving nature of their state to be sometimes consonant and sometimes in congruent with those values it's 1400 years since the revelation and since you know the ultimate sort of light and guidance was was provided for all of mankind not just for Muslims there is obviously a whole range of things that that many people would see to be ideal but because there's over a 1000000000 of it in fact almost a 1000000000 and a half of us and because it's been 1400 years there's going to be a wide spectrum of things and ideas and interpretations that all the gentlemanly fall within the domain of Islam so for me for example the way that I would respond to this question about cutting off that I also think just if you don't mind is take a little bit of time just to say that I think one of the big challenges is. The language in which the West tries to engage with Muslims so the cutting of their hands becomes a litmus test of whether there is this barbaric sort of tendency among Muslims now the cutting of the hands was prescribed in an era and space and a time when theft had to be done physically somebody had to use their hands to thieves something today one of the biggest challenges globally is cyber crime and there are many hackers who are still using their hands but the instrument of theft is code it's an algorithm it's sitting 100 hundreds of miles away and stealing money in many countries the punishment for that kind of theft is a long period of incarceration mostly by taking away people's Internet access by taking away people's freedom of movement you have little tags that people have to wear on their ankles or on their arms so they can be tracked so their freedom is curtailed the cutting of the hands is a narrative it's a proxy for taking away a privilege so a society is chosen to take away the privilege of freedom or movement through other instruments there are many scholars in Islam that would agree with that as a viable proxy and many would say well that's as a very just said many would say well that's not quite where we need to be I think the flexibility and the opportunity to have that debate is what really really informs for me and Islamic state you can have that debate about that these I don't call that Islamic state that's the I will talk about that you can't have that debate in the free air that we breathe here in Pakistan we're going to talk about. Background ID and what he's done and why it is or isn't an Islamic state but Professor 1st of all I mean are you agreeing with Musharraf that this sort of quite flexible interpretation of Quranic injunctions is acceptable Yeah I absolutely agree and. This is what the you know I was on about yes there is a tendency. To reading and rereading and revisiting the text in so many ways but there is a school. Why not here maybe Baghdadi is the example of who wants to take things back more literally literalist through to let's say separate century conditions and to live like that I mean would you have any sympathy with that view on a personal level not not to talk talk through that position and how that works I certainly hold I respect for even the approach it approaches or for reading and reading the text from the literalist point of view as well but I do not consider the 2 are useful in the present state of affairs because we need a larger We have a larger audience we live in a globalized world and though of the religion of Islam that too we need to. Think a lot of course we could EMEA it is something that that that is very flexible that has divers opinion you are I'm teaching a course and I'm editing the people from various backgrounds and people speaking various languages and the girls coming from start difference in their backgrounds in their ethnicities and everything so of course we I project Islam to them is is a diverse is a flexible. Yes I. Have statement that Islam is very flexible religion but actually I want to clarify that Islamic ideology or this law Mick cannot be implemented in any society unless and until the Muslims have the clear understanding of Islam and. We cannot present and we cannot seal the different version of Islam like a book that the and whatever we have in the Middle East and that they are not even Muslims are totally disordered such subtle additions such movements so it's larger than deal with the specific. Leadership who believes on. Not not believe on the patient in the toilet and you know I mean when you say everyone has to agree I mean humans don't agree today and we've just heard from what I can gather that there's so much flexibility in how you all see Islam that you can accept the sort of pressures on this that not having these kind of punishments on us is one example but I'm sure there are many others and so I don't really understand your idea that everyone will be thinking in the same way and ice never going to happen no they're not thinking then we have to work through them but then according to him according to his version I mean there are different versions let's say she'll suit me which version yes dear diff. Not yes one is not the version so yes one is not the version. I am asking about different moderate words in different. Extremist version of Islam that these are the different version bitter presenting no it is that someone is going and in the void in the fight and not allowing any non muslim not even the Muslim who are out supposed to be secular in this state so I am asking their deity their extremist but enough Islam that is not accepta