The final grand slam is the this U.S. . Race for the Driver's Championship. This is simple night 15000085 own coming up in this hour the program will learn about the way the Dutch bring up their kids can we learn anything Brady from abandoning children in the woods to make their own way home as they did also we get the news in Science this week including why I came in Australia tend to have smaller testicles I kid you know there is one of the stories in embryos in bird eggs can pick up warning poles that in the 2 nearby predators and also Did you know that geotagging your holiday snaps of wildlife while on safari could assist in the conservation talked of science as well we'll open up the phone lines in the next hour for the call phone in any questions that you have to recite if we could natural phenomena nature he'd be happy to answer them but 1st the man who spent nearly 2 years investigating links between Donald Trump's 2016 election campaign and Russia has spent 6 hours testifying in front of Congress and the president says in media reports which cost chain $1000000.00 by the way and involved $500.00 witnesses showed no obstruction and no collusion but the special counsel insists he didn't exonerate the president and pointed to 10 instances that he thought obstructed justice. Well the Democrats who came to get room units repeat describes a recruit is the chair of the House Intelligence Committee Adam Schiff and the president said the Russian interference was a hoax that was false wasn't true. In short your investigation found evidence that Russia wanted to help Trump win the election right I think generally. That would be accurate Russia informed campaign officials of that I'm not certain to what conversation here are referring to well through an intermediary to inform Papadopoulos that they could help with the anonymous release of still one e-mails accurate Russia committed federal crimes in order to help Donald Trump when you're talking about the computer crimes in charge in our case absolutely the Trump campaign officials build their strategy their messaging strategy around those stolen documents. I generally that's true and then they lie to cover it up and generally that's true. Whereas for the Republicans His their Congressman Ken Buck what we did is provide to the attorney general in the form of a confidential memorandum our understanding of the case those cases that were brought those cases over to cod and. That one case where the president cannot be charged with a crime OK but the. Could you charge the president with a triumph after he left office yes you believe that he committed you could charge the president states with obstruction of justice after he left office yes. With me now is John Nichols from The Nation magazine and Patrick Basin from the Democracy Institute GENZER Good morning see both it's a pleasure morning yes always a pleasure to speak to me 1st of all John how how significant is this revelation that the president could be charged after he leaves office I think it is something that perhaps is surprising to a lot of folks but very much a part of American law for a very long time in fact the way to understand this sort of put into perspective is to recognize that when Richard Nixon resigned the presidency under the threat of impeachment back in 1974 he had to be pardoned by his successor Gerald Ford Gerald Ford basically did a full pardon that said Nixon could not be prosecuted if that had not happened there is a real possibility that he might if this prosecution so this is not a revelation for people who are engaged with the law but for the great American public I think it is an interesting development and certainly one that Democrats are going to be very excited to highlight in reality the Patrick it's not going to happen is it. I think it's highly unlikely especially if Trump were to be reelected then you know you know you're putting it back another 4 years. Yeah I mean I think it's there's no chance if he gets reelected if he isn't related. It's possible but I think it's unlikely Would you agree with John Yeah I think I do and I think that the reelection component is the key element here. We as a country the United States do not really have a tradition of punishing our former leaders right it's it's sort of if you've served your time as president even if you're a very unpopular president even if you were Herbert Hoover in the midst of the Great Depression or various other presidents who've had bad times. When you finish it's generally you know goodbye go away. And if you get reelected again that from a legal standpoint that doesn't absolve you in any way but just from a sort of popular opinion standpoint and also from the willingness of prosecutors to pursue things there's generally a sense well the people said it was OK so go on. So I grieve Yes it's also the void of the charges against him in comparison to. Nixon who. You know the idea of obstruction doesn't seem that much of a big Patrick if you give me no I mean you know I mean to use an extreme you know analogy if your you know if your if your charge should be investigated for murdering someone and it turns out yes you did it you know they got you dead to rights and it turns out that you try to obstruct the investigation. That's a pretty big deal but if there's a. How do I put it. An investigation into your campaign's behavior. That is off the top it was mind set of a dubious Genesis and it turns out the investigation finds that whatever the Russians might have been up to us were actually up to anything bad yourself and you weren't helpful to the investigation should you have been an unhelpful Probably not but it isn't you know you've been found to have not been guilty of the the large a crime it's oh it's you know that there are levels of this whatever one thinks of the ethics you know it's it is it's very very different and I don't think it was ever was there more report came down and it was clear what they hadn't had found it was ever going to be a long term problem for trouble though obviously some of the Democrats think that they couldn't continue to make it a very you know very painful short term problem. You have from the president's demeanor the easiest Kongs John dozens of about this victory every where with all due respect the president would be claiming victory if they had him in chains that were taken by. You know and that's just that's how he has. Lived his life it's how he has done his politics he always claims victory I would say that the bravado that the president brings to this is probably the best evidence that he is in fact bothered and I think this has concerned him a great deal and I think it continues to concern him there is a great battle in America to define. Downturns behaviors and obviously Donald Trump says maybe I do the wrong thing now and again but it's all toward a good goal his Democratic critics will say no he's always calculating he's always scheming he's always a bad player. Where the American people line up on that issue is going to be very definitional as regards the 2020 race in America so the president has constantly claimed absolution that he's completely off the hook and the one place where all differ with Patrick is very very wise and very appropriate in his comments or I will say that the obstruction thing is still something of consequence because. When you're talking about most people who have struck justice there it's a petty crime or maybe even a serious crime but it's it's in their their personal bailiwick as regards a president ited States when a president of the United States abuses his position uses his position to protect himself and to protect those around him from investigation and prosecution that's a big deal and and I think that still lingers in our discourse at this point and it's something that Trump wants to define as did nothing wrong you know no obstruction nothing nothing wrong I think Democrats want to say yeah well maybe we didn't catch him on the precise crime but look how he uses his office is that really what you want in a president and I think that's still a very open debate in America to do the American people care very much mature does that kind of argument from the Democrats is that resonate with people Will it make any impact insurgency 20. I mean it resonates with those who already are and for a long time have been suspicious of Trump as a person as a would be president who who don't trust him as president to you know disapprove of his behavior and in every sense what they perceive his behavior to be and his rhetoric so it's affective for the Democrats in reminding. The you know the anti trumpeters why they feel that way and why it's important to continue to feel that way and continue to be active to donate and votes of all the rest of it the problem for the Democrats is a little bit like the problem the Republicans had with Bill Clinton in that most of them are really really wound up about the president's behavior what they perceive it to be the problem is although most other people don't like it and think you don't think it's great behavior it's not important enough to them they don't think it's important enough to remove the president so the Republicans always run up against that with Bill Clinton people like the fact the economy was good and they thought he was basically a you know a pretty good president right now it's peace and prosperity and for move most people it's just not enough to you know to to support you know the kind of things that some of the Democrats did in the House particularly looking to do. So I think they're they are understandably predictably going to repeat the mistakes of what 20 years ago with Newt Gingrich and his successors in the Republican leadership on the Hill John Well I think Patrick is in the heart of the matter with a quick reference there to the economy and you know I don't want to be too determinist in to use a word that they sometimes around a colleges and I barely understand but. There were bags in a moment and say Yeah exactly let's let's head down to the pub and we'll explain it later but but the bottom line is that the economy matters a great deal and right now Donald Trump's approval ratings are very good and most polls actually show that he would lose to quite a few Democrats who might run against him so he's not in great shape politically However if he is running against a Democrat who he was demonized in perhaps quite effectively and the economy is good then I think the point to Patrick's making is is a very important one to understand here Don Trump could be reelected now Democrats can't wrap their head around that idea just as Republicans can't wrap their head around the notion that that a Democrat could win I mean there were very divided country but the key is that division polling shows that we really are roughly you know about 45 on one side about 45 on the other side an 8 to 10 percent of folks who kind of wrestle with the thing. And and frankly I have to say I think that 8 to 10 percent is very influenced by the economy and so for Trump even though Robert Muller was his big deal this week the fact of the matter is the biggest thing for Donald Trump going to 2020 is low unemployment and a high stock market if he's got that he does have arguments to make for his reelection but you know a you know I'm missing out on one key thing though John that the last one so I'm president was George H. Bush. The every election every presidential election Yeah we tend to realize that I think is incumbent does it yeah it does and you've got the you know you have the bully pulpit but saw signs the bunny slope the boat pulpit is what a term that we use for the presidency it's simply that you know everybody's going to listen to you are you're like the person who's at the top level of every discussion but they could be keeping on this is that the key thing is Donald Trump is not like any president we've had before and so the big mistake that all of us who pundit ties all of us who talk about politics in America make again and again and again he tried to apply the traditional rules to him they have not applied to him that's why he's president now and so he could cut the other way with him he is such a volatile figure he could be beaten in 2020 we doesn't have that guarantee and and so I think that that's one of the reasons why all of this that we're talking about you kind of all goes into a mix and Donald Trump's personality has been so rooted in his presidency that things are so closely tied personality and presidency that at the end of the day it's going to be a gut check for at least some chunk of American voters and I have to tell you I have a feeling we're going to be talking about this and talking about it with some uncertainty right through November of 2020. Yeah Patrick turned does have a point here though the in terms of personality dominating Donald Trump's policies if you like it's not like the president can can shift his position because their personality will dominate it whatsoever he can't change his personality can suddenly get softer or harder THIS IS WHO years and it ain't going to change is no it isn't and I think it we're looking at the sort of the flip in 202020165 that I mean 26 states if you spoke to people whether they were for against Hillary Clinton there was nothing really that she was going to say or do that was going to make someone who was an ardent supporter less keen or make a sort of a to Hillary hater. Interested in voting for her it was all about what Trump did you know was he was he plausible enough was he accepted well enough to enough people in the right states it turned out narrowly he was and I think in 2028. Everyone knows what they think of him as a person his personality and you know as a consequence of that his policies of his presidency you're not going to change anybody's mind I don't think between now and then what will change is what people think of his opponent we don't know who that will be but how now because he tried his job as a truck will help defy the opponent ad but depending on what it what we do that is the job that the Democrats do of defining themselves to find their own candidate and the type of person and personality that is I think that is what it could be decisive and that's why I think some of the many Democratic candidates some of them on our off focusing on who they are as people because they think that they have at least publicly in a more attractive face. To put on the ballot then that and Trump does John you your dream is some I do agree with a great deal of it and I'm not sure that's a good thing look but we have entered into an era of personality politics that is it is incredibly dominant for all the discussion we have about the rise of socialism in America that we have now have Bernie Sanders and Alexander Ocasio Cortez who are people who identify as Democratic Socialists in key positions in our politics and many people see this as a big ideological development the odd thing about it is that when we look at the polling on Bernie Sanders and Alexander Ocasio Cortez so much of it redounds to their personalities people are interested in these folks they're they're drawn to them as people and this is I think going to define 2020 in America I think Patrick gets to the heart of the matter when he talks about this defining of the Democratic nominee now that's where the great race is going to come and that's what brings us back to today today was a day about defining Trump and defining his critics and that's you know Muller says what Moller says the Democrats say what they say the Republicans say what they say that's all about drop. Someplace down the line there's going to be a Democratic nominee that Democratic nominee is someone that Donald Trump is going to desperately want to define the key is this if the Democrats nominate someone with baggage that Donald Trump can easily you know grab on to he will and that will be very effective if they nominate someone who really does have a lot of ability to define themselves to really claim that space then and to get ahead to trump on that then you're going to have an incredibly competitive incredibly fascinating race and I do not rule out the possibility that Donald Trump who has been so dominant in our discourse up to this point could be pushed into a corner that's very inconvenient politically for him but that's what the Democrats have to wrestle with and that is frankly why we're talking about Mahler today but I promise you a week from today and everybody's going to be obsessed with the 2 debates between the Democratic candidates it's going to be fascinating and John you broke down so you know eloquently for you that but one question that I betcha can answer this 1st and then come back to John my one question is are there any politicians who don't come with baggage I can imagine I mean we saw though the Joe Biden situation did we there is always baggage somewhere that President charm seem to be able to winkle outs of them and and latch onto. But there is but I think Biden is an example to date of someone who is able to to rise above it you know many he Everybody knows he's gaffe prone. You know you can go busy there's quite a list of things that substantially objectively you could say this guy could become vice president to begin with but but he was vice president for 2 terms he's now very serious candidate for the presidency and he survives and I think he support five's in no small part because of personality he is someone who is naturally likable and not you know not everybody's cup of tea but he's certainly more likable than most politicians these days and he's able to come across as a sort of Thalia regular guy that a lot of people can identify with. And the Democratic Party right now someone who can identify with blue collar white blue collar workers in the Midwest is something they you know desperately crying out for so it can be done even if you have quote unquote more baggage than anybody else. You know buys a survivor and I'm not so predictable yes we're going to survive this nomination race but the fact that he is at this point with what he's gone through recently so serious a candidate you know it tells you something a lot and usually about his ability survive I have to also tell you something about you know the folks he's competing with to run well I think Patrick sums it up very well and others say I've covered politics for a really long time in the U.S. In cover a lot of different people come along at the end of the day. The strongest thing that a candidate has to both define himself and frankly to undo whatever baggage they may have is the ability to fascinate people to make people interested in you to make people want to hear your story and want to hear what you say about things Hillary Clinton's challenge in 2016 is that everybody thought they knew her very very well and they frankly. If they liked her they liked her a lot but if they didn't like her they don't want to hear anything more from her and she was not able to to have that conversation and so well what Patrick says about Biden is very true. I would suggest that the Democrats might also want to look at somebody who is newer and somebody who is sort of a fresher player does not argue against Biden but to simply say that if they've got a candidate coming up and it might even be this you know very unexpected contender Pete who judged the mayor of South Bend Indiana 37 year old openly gay military veteran. Who just calms really interesting guy and it seems like I've been amazed by how many people want to hear about you know just want to hear what he says about stuff this is not to tell you the boot a judge is going to break through that he's going to be the candidate or the comma Harris it is or that Elizabeth Warren with her plan is but it i