Hello I'm Tom what's with the b.b.c. News 2 attacks by Islamist insurgents in the West African state of bikini fast so on Tuesday have left dozens of people dead the government said 80 insurgents were killed along with 7 soldiers and $35.00 civilians mostly women militants 1st attacked a military outpost in the northern sume province as he Morgan explains after attacking the soldiers there they turned their guns on civilians once relatively stable became a faster has descended into serious unrest since 2015 when violence began spilling over from Mali hundreds of people have been killed or internally displaced this year no group has claimed responsibility for this attack but you have just violence and Brook University has been blamed on militants linked to both al Qaeda and Islamic state groups Pope Francis has ushered in Christmas for more than a 1000000000 Catholics by celebrating midnight mass at the Vatican calling on the faithful not to abandon God's love because of the churches failings speaking to thousands of pilgrims gathered in St Peter's Basilica paid Francis eluded to the clerical abuse and financial scandals affecting the church. We have yet you may have made a complete mess of things but the Lord continues to love you how often do we think that God is good if we are good and punishes us if we are bad that is not how he is pilgrims gathered in the West Bank town of Bethlehem revered by Christians as the birthplace of Jesus Christ they festivities centered on the Church of the Nativity which is cut off from the nearby city of Jerusalem by Israel's separation barrier. Midnight Mass has also been celebrated in churches across France for the 1st time in 200 years not in Cathedral in Paris which was devastated by a fire in April the extent of the destruction meant it was held at a church nearby instead. The Mexican foreign ministry has said it is deeply concerned about what it is calling the excessive surveillance of the Mexican Embassy and ambassador's residence in Bolivia Mexico claims Bolivia is engaged in a clear act of intimidation against their embassy staff in violation of international law from Mexico City will grant has the details Mexico granted asylum to former president everyone Alice when he had to resign at the request of the military he flew to Mexico Mexico sort of put him are allowed him to speak here dressed students he was using Twitter very prominently and didn't hurt him in any way and that annoyed the government in the past a jailed Nigerian activist who'd stood as a presidential candidate has been released on bail after the government accepted a court ruling the activist a moyl a show or a was imprisoned on charges of treason and insulting the president the Nigerian government has also ordered the release of on bail of a former National Security Adviser Sambo to Suki who was detained in 2015 you're listening to the latest world news from the b.b.c. a Forest fire has encroached on the Chilean city of Valparaiso destroying about 50 houses the city's entire fire service with help from neighboring municipalities and the military at tackling the blaze 2 districts at greatest risk of received an order to evacuate. Russian and Turkish officials have been discussing how to stop an escalation of fighting in the Syrian province of Idlib Syrian government forces backed by Russian planes have been mounting a week long offensive against jihadist led militias in the province which is the last still mainly held by opposition forces Middle East editor Sebastian Usher says the offensive is part of the Syrian government's wider strategy this is partly the drive to take back the whole of the country to win back it up there's also a strategic attempt by the Syrian government to take full control of the main highway that runs have a country and 5 which as part of that cease fire deal was supposed to have been made safe the militias were supposed to pull back the fighting what's happening now is again going a bit deeper into it live around that area so I think that's the main strategic aim at the moment of the government Brazil's hardline President Jiah balsa Naro has pardoned jailed members of the police and military convicted of crimes committed unintentionally or in self-defense including for unlawful killing the pardon includes personnel who were off duty when the crime was carried out but excludes those convicted of corruption torture or terrorism he writes groups regard Brazilian place among the deadliest in the world. Has announced that one of its founders Travis Callan accused to step down from the board of directors at the end of the year Mr Callan ousted original chief executive within a year of its creation but was himself forced to quit his chief in 2017 after a number of scandals Mr colonic recently sold off most of his shares in the company it was share values dropped by more than 25 percent since it was listed in May correspondence a investors are concerned about long term prospects b.b.c. News. Welcome to hard talk on the b.b.c. World Service with me Steven Sanka my guest today was intimately involved with obviously the greatest feats of exploration in the history of humankind and yet you probably don't know his name Michael Collins was one of the 3 astronauts on the Apollo 11 mission to land a man on the moon as Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin stepped out of their lunar module on to the surface of the moon Michael Collins was piloting the command module orbiting high above them he was in charge of getting all of them home this year marks the 50th anniversary of that extraordinary mission which was watched live on t.v. All around the world by the end of that fateful year Michael Cullen's was just 39 had quit his job as a NASA astronauts in search of different challenges he worked in the u.s. State Department later he was director of the National Air and Space Museum but of course nothing you ever went on to do had the impact of that mission to the moon the same could be said of Massa's manned space flight program Nothing since has captured the imagination like that 1st moon landing will it ever be surprised Well Michael Collins joins me now welcome to Talk thank you very much Stephen this year marks the 50th anniversary of the historic Apollo 11 Levon mission which you were a key part of it means the spotlight is back on that mission it's back on you how do you feel about that. There were 3 of us of course that fly and nail Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin and I am. 3 very lucky people Neil Armstrong was born in 1930 Buzz Aldrin 1930 Mike Collins 1930. 3 quite different people Neil Armstrong didn't like the spotlight Buzz Aldrin doesn't like the spotlight mycology doesn't like that with all due respect Sir Mike Collins doesn't like the spotlight either and yet here we are and we're going to talk about what happened in 1969 do you talk about it with an enduring sense of pride Oh very much so I mean I was I was very proud of the job that the 3 of us did getting us to and from the moon that trip is a very long and fragile daisy chain and the links are very fragile and and we were able to keep them all intact and do our jobs properly but. More than the 3 of us there were almost 400000 Americans working on Project Apollo and I think them they're the ones who don't get recognized I want to take you back actually quite some time before the mission before those amazing pictures of the footsteps on the moon I want to take you back to John f. Kennedy pledging to invest whatever it took to get American man on to the moon in 1961 I guess. Within the decade he said we will make it happen absolutely did you at the time when he said that did you think that's me I am going to do whatever I can to be part of that no I did not when John f. Kennedy made that famous speech on man on the moon by the end of the decade I was struggling with a Quezon Zz of motion and the Test Pilot School Edwards Air Force Base and the notion of flying to the moon was far beyond my ken once I did join the space program and become part of Apollo. As the months went by I thank John f. Kennedy more and more because the stark simplicity of his mandate was wonderful for us we we could quote John Kennedy and we could get things done we could accelerate people we tell people we've got to have this by day after tomorrow at the Kennedy mandate the simplicity of it the start beauty of it really helped us along through the Mon did you feel that you were part of some sort of Cold War contest because we shouldn't forget that Kennedy's commitment was in pot at least driven by a preoccupation with what the Soviets were doing in the sense that the Soviets may be getting ahead of America in the space race this was America's determination to fight back good did you feel like a cold warrior in a sense yes a little bit we of course were acutely aware of the Us s. R. We knew that we were in a competition with them but somehow that was behind a scrim behind a screen that wasn't part of our day to day life I didn't feel like an active competitor my problems were American problem trying to get American problems solved and although we knew we were in this competition we are at least my consciousness was 99 percent taken with non Soviet affairs or status. You were picked ultimately for this Apollo 11 mission alongside as you say Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin you then spend time training with them you did the mission with them it was a feat of an enormous ambition and day airing and I just wonder what sort of bombs you forged with those 2 men Armstrong and Aldrin we form some very strong bonds but actually not really during the flight of Apollo 11 or even during the prepared to a flight of the flight it was around the world trip that we took after the flight when I I came to know Neil better during our training in the 1st place we had we had not been a backup crew as most prime rary crews had been so we just got to know each other in the 6 months before the flight which is a short period of time further we were split by by function Neil and Buzz were primarily off doing the lunar module training I was usually by myself doing command module training so I somewhere along the line described to us is amiable stranger is didn't didn't mean that in a derogatory way but. When we were very hardworking when the day was over we we didn't party we didn't drive. Color coordinated Corvettes or any of that kind of thing we were our noses were Should the grindstone we had both come off the Gemini program so we did have some experience in space Gemini program was a fascinating but a much smaller program and it had more of a local. Appeal or Thiel ing about it almost perhaps like an athletic contest of some sort Paulo 11 on the other hand. As heavy duty big business we felt the weight of the world on our shoulders. We were being looked at and examined minute Lee We were under tight time table time schedule and amiable strangers we were we were in a sense but there's something intensely human about the. The rules you had because Armstrong and Aldrin as you say were committed to the landing they were in the lunar module and they were going to be the guys let us be honest who were going to get the glory of making those footsteps on the moon you were integral to the mission but you were piloting the command module you were absolutely crucial to getting them on to the moon and getting them off the moon and back home but you would not then and it seems to me it takes a particular kind of man to be committed to the mission and accent that you're not going to get the ultimate glory did you see it that way well no I think 30 certainly thought that I did not have the best seat of the 3 on Apollo 11 but I can say in all honesty I was thrilled with the seat that I did have I knew that I had somehow locked into. Being one 3rd of the team that was going to do this wonderful thing and my function suited me fine I mean yeah sure I would have preferred to walk on the moon but that really seemed trivial distinction at the time I was very pleased with the my responsibilities on the flight people have said that yours actually was the loneliest job that a human being could ever have because while they went off the 2 of them together in the module to make that landing you were all putting the moon in the C'mon mode jewel and for a substantial chunk of every orbit you were completely isolated from all of humankind because you were on the fossil had the moon out of all contact with humanity no human being has ever being more isolated than you would. So. So what did you make of that experience what kind of impact did it have upon you well I when I returned to earth I was amazed because most of the questions to me from the press center go and you were the loneliest man in the whole lonely orbit around the Lonely Planet on a lonely evening and I felt on the other hand quite comfortable in my happy little home inside the command module Columbia. I had been flying airplanes by myself for a number of years so the fact I was lost by myself was not anything new I was very comfortable in the head there was an awful responsibility on your shoulders because you were the guy who had to make sure the older and I'm strong got back to the spacecraft that was going to get you will home. And you didn't know whether the lunar module would really work when it left the moon surface you didn't know if I am strong and old and would make it back to you and I just wonder if in your mind you had a plan for what you would do if things went wrong Well 1st you've hit upon the part of the flight that I worried about the most which I thought that the nail in was would go on down and have a successful landing and a lot of our equipment was duplicated but when it came to their return to me they had one engine one engine bell one combustion chamber and that had to work perfectly to lift them up back to my orbit. I had around my neck an 8 by 10 note book which had. 18 different possibilities for how we would bring those 2 vehicles back together if everything went according to the textbook was fairly simple and something that we had practiced over and over in the simulator you had to think what it would mean for you. If you'd had to return to Earth without them and sure I did. But only in the most abbreviated form I mean the 1st I was not going to commit suicide I was coming home by myself and I would be a marked man for the rest of my life I knew that. And I didn't dwell on that but I was I was quite aware of that fact. Did you as other astronauts have discussed of course back in 1969 there were very few men who'd have the experience that you were having of seeing our blue planet from space did you find it changed your view of humanity Oh of our place in the universe Yes I believe it did if there is any part of the flight of Apollo 11 that sticks in my memory it is the memory of a little tiny thing that you can obscure with your thumbnail blue and white the why is the clouds of blue of the ocean just a trace of land gorgeous very shiny bright back ground totally black. I will remember that all my life and it leads one to consider well is it so pretty is it so quiet is it so pristine for some reason the word fragile came up out of the murk somehow I know not how but I thought God it's a fragile little thing isn't it and though in the 50 years since you had that special view of our planet do you think we human beings have respected and understood that fragility no. No I don't think so I would we flew to the moon the population of the Earth was about $2000000000.00 and it's sneaking up now on and on $8000000000.00 and that growth is willy nilly without any consideration for. The support that additional number of people requires from the resources of the earth No I don't think we ever consider that let me ask you if I may a personal question about that return to us you were perhaps at that time in 1969 the 3 most famous men on the planet you had achieved something which man a dreamed about I mean mankind had dreamed about for so long and you had delivered it. And yet afterwards it can all of been easy to handle both the adulation and the intense focus and spotlight upon you Buzz Aldrin has been open about the difficulties he had in coming to terms with it he said I beams of the moon I had traveled around but was on earth was I going to do next did you have a feeling like that too and not really I bailed out of the space program before Apollo was over I felt that the 1st letter landing it fundamentally done what John f. Kennedy had asked us to do I went on to do other jobs I'd be the next 1st I was assistant secretary of state later I was director of the National Air and Space Museum and let me interrupt because both of those extremely important jobs with a great deal of responsibility but if you had stayed I think most people who know NASA well think there's little doubt that you could have commanded your own Apollo mission you may well have stood a chance in the Is that came to have walked on the moon yourself and you walked away from that possibility why. Oh a whole host of reasons some of them professional some of them personal I think the personal ones at that time probably weighed more heavily on me than the professional ones my wife Pat and you know put up with my ridiculous career. Being a jet fighter pilot a test pilot. This loony astronaut thing whatever it was and that required long hours a lot of time away from home. And the time away from home frequently was you were stuffed into a simulator and I was sick and tired of being stuffed into a simulator and I felt that I had. Upheld my end of the bargain with NASA I didn't feel like I owed NASA anything nor did they owe me anything but any regrets at all did not pursue that Oh sure oh sure but but you know I might my luck had endured and this was time for it to end and yeah sure but did I look back when when when Gene Cernan my good good friend Gene Cernan stepped out on to the lunar surface did I feel a sense of they were going to be green and if he could have been me. I maybe thought that but I wasn't you know green with envy or anything like that it was not a strong feeling no I made my decision was happy with my decision I had it was now living in Washington d.c. With a decent job my will my wife my family situation was good so I had no cause for for any great regret as you say you for a while were director of the Air and Space Museum you stayed very closely tied to the world of space exploration you fly. Which Nasser a close quarters do you think after the Apollo program was wound up do you think NASA in a sense lost its way that for all of the development of the space shuttle those endless missions to the space station space lab. They seem to lose momentum with the notion of pushing forward with manned exploration I do think that they made a big mistake I don't think NASA lost its way so much as NASA lost its money and there's an important distinction there I think NASA sort of wobble long they weren't quite sure what you did after Apollo they did they did a space station an abbreviated form of wine and then they created the shuttle I think those were important and useful steps they were not as dramatic they didn't excite the American people and interest in the space program decreased but I think that was perhaps inevitable after Apollo was over let's talk about Mas you have always been a passionate advocate of the need for humans to push a mission to mas but there are so many challenges involved in the miles mission it would take so long at least 2 years do you see a commitment not least amongst America's politicians to invest what it would need to get human beings to moms the financing space ventures has changed somewhat in that it's not only. A tax government project Mars but. So some private money is being thrown in by people such as Ilan Moscow where you comfortable with