And said decisions on licensing were a matter for the independent regulator a former Conservative m.p. And Culture Minister advisee told us it was not sensible for a government to threaten a broadcaster but he said the Tories had a legitimate complaint I do think the ice sculpture was perhaps a stunt too far it's perfectly legitimate for Channel 4 to have a debate with the leaders of the main parties because searchers are free to say well we're not going to put our leader into that debate but I can see that Channel 4 is annoyed that the leader of the concert part didn't take part in the debate so there's a sort of bit of wrong on both sides the conservatives are promising that they will strengthen England's education watchdog off stead if they win the election and of criticized labor and the Liberal Democrats for saying they'd scrap the current system Boris Johnson is announcing plans for longer inspections and more funding Here's our education correspondent Lisa Hambly the conservatives want to increase the length of inspections in secondary schools and large primary schools from $2.00 to $3.00 days the additional day will be focused on behavior bullying an extracurricular activities and the party says it will pilot no notice inspections no idea it previously floated and then rejected the moment schools and notified the day before the conservatives have also restated plans to change the rules so schools rated as Outstanding will once again be subject to routine inspections last year of state was criticised by the National Audit Office which found that hundreds of schools mostly rated as outstanding had not been inspected for years the extra $10000000.00 pounds promised for office dead follows a decade in which his budget has been significantly cut while at the same time it's taken on additional responsibilities Labor and the Liberal Democrats argue that Ofsted needs to be replaced by a more effective body. Labor is setting out where it would spend money to create jobs in what it calls its green industrial revolution the party is launching a manifesto for each region of England with the promise of what it calls an investment blitz that will bring prosperity to every region while talking tackling climate change the shadow chancellor John McDonald set out some of the projects on this program we've got to remove out of point dependence on fossil fuel so that means alternative energy sources yeah massive investment in offshore and onshore wind which will write 9000 turbines 100000 jobs massive investment in investment electric vehicles again which will hurt 195000 jobs will be protected and then and racial 32000 jobs created 3000000000 solar shoulder power 20000 jobs the conservatives said the proposals were a distraction from Labour's failure to set out a plan for leaving the e.u. The Liberal Democrats are announcing plans to spend 1000000000 pounds a year to give police in England and Wales a payroll and recruit 20000 more offices they say they want to restore community policing and argue that they're the only major party to commit the funding needed to increase officer numbers the metropolitan police force is to pay the former m.p. Harvey Proctor half a $1000000.00 pounds in compensation because of its bungled investigation into false claims about a Westminster paedophile ring Mr Proctor whose home was raided by police will also be given 400000 pounds to go towards his legal cost his to lay as a hobby Proctor was $1.00 of several prominent figures accused by copy of being members of a v.i.p. Peta following in the seventy's and eighty's the former Conservative m.p. Says he lost his home and his job while he was under suspicion. The Metropolitan Police was heavily criticized for its investigation by the former High Court judge separate should have raked has in an independent review he reprimanded the force the believing bait for too long Mr Parks his lawyers have now confirmed that he will save 500000 pounds in compensation and nearly 400000 in legal costs from Scotland Yard the force has apologized for its mistakes call beach is currently serving an 18 year prison sentence for that in the course of justice and food one of the U.K.'s big sit energy firms and power has announced plans to restructure the business unions have warned that many jobs could be lost and called it a body blow for workers doesn't it David has more details and power has been struggling for some time losing 261000 customers in the last quarter alone as a number of small supplies enter the market with the price cap biting the energy supply is on track to make a loss in excess of 200000000 pounds because the u.k. Market particularly challenging and says it's embarking on a shakeup of its business in order to return to profitability the company which is German owned says it will release more details when staff have been briefed this morning it's thought $4500.00 jobs could be affected the trade union Unison said it would be a cruel blow for and power employees and has called for the big 6 suppliers to be taken into public ownership to avoid what it calls a collapse of the energy market a bit changing of the guard today at the European Council Donald Tusk will be replaced as president by the former prime minister of Belgian shell Michel as our Europe correspondent Kevin Conley reports the change is likely to signal a new attitude about BRICs set for the president of the European Council acts as a kind of convening for the heads of state and government forging consensus with difficult decisions. Because. So use the post as a pulpit from which to rail against breaks it in roughly equal amounts of sorrow and anger he once said there'd be a special place in hell for Briggs it is who had and probably planned for breaks it and always seem to hope it might be reversed the former Belgian prime minister Sharma Shelly's like to take a more sanguine approach like the French President Emanuel macro to whom he's close they want Briggs it done to ease disruption and they intend to defend the e use interest vigorously in any negotiations that attitude will help to set the tone if the break that process moves on the talks on a trade agreement next year almost a quarter of young people are so dependent on their smartphones that it becomes like an addiction according to new research the study from King's College London suggests they become panicky or upset if they're denied constant access. For the 1st time in more than a century a manuscript written by Elizabeth 1st has been discovered the literary historian from the University of East Anglia found the paper in Lambeth Palace library and piece together a series of clues to establish the queen herself was responsible for the translation of the Roman historian Tacitus arts correspondent Rebecca Jones reports one searching in the library for translations of Tacitus Dr John Mark file a found a mysterious 42 page manuscript he's damaged it was written on a very specific kind of paper used by the cheater court in the 5090s a further clue was the presence of 3 water marks which are also found on the paper Elizabeth the 1st used in her posts and all correspondence but the clinching argument was the handwriting the translation was copied by one of her secretaries but it's covered in corrections and additions which match the Queen's highway distinctive indeed rather messy hand Dr Filer's suggests Elizabeth the 1st might have been studying the text for guidance on how to rule Alternatively the translation could just have been a Hopi for a queen who enjoyed classical history. People who own drones weighing more than 250 grams have until the end of today to register them or risk a 1000 pound fine the Civil Aviation Authority says tens of thousands still haven't done so thank you the time is 10 past 8 people in court yesterday heard gasps of horror a relative shouted out some cried but the Hillsborough verdict was clear David Duncan feel the police chief had been in overall charge where 96 Liverpool football fans died at that match in April 1909 and afterwards was not guilty of gross negligence manslaughter there are still more court cases to come on other matters but this felt to many of the victim's relatives like a severe blow at the end of a terrible and lengthy process and of course a process that was found at an inquest that the fans had been unlawfully killed the lie that Liverpool fans are themselves been responsible for the tragedy has also been officially Aquash to Dr Dorothy Griffiths is the sister of one of the victims Vincent Fitz Simons I'm absolutely devastated and reeling really from the all and shocked that we've come to this stage that after 30 years no one is going to be held accountable for their death gesso $96.00 people I just I just cannot understand how this is come about did you expect that the verdict would go the other way yes I did I did expect the verdict to be to be hit for him to be found guilty and particularly of course because of what Mr Dockum field said and admitted during the inquest of course. So we've now come to a state after 30 years 30 plus years of like 2 contradictory to contradict the verdict but of course a different standard of proof in a criminal trial from that of a civil inquest and you know in the end there's no way around that is that you know there isn't any way around it. And we can argue this till the cows come home I feel. So. Heavy though it is you know we have to move on and try to gain something positive from it. We can never bring our loved ones back the survivors can never lose the memories of that day but some think we have to move forward we have to move forward. I think the something fundamentally and float in our legal framework I think but of course I'm coming from rates from an untrained legal person I'm coming from and as someone bereaved but I do feel now we have an opportunity for something good come out of the tragedy . And if I let that be well I would were in obviously going through a general election at the moment. And I would like to publicly call upon all parties all political parties. To state to publicly state whether they will implement the outcome of Bishop James's reports and ensure that the public accountability act is enshrined in our law before another tragedy or Kaz and this so happens again 2 of the families yes I want what the bishop wanted was was more transparency more accountability and say in a range of institutions in the institutions that we trust that that's really the front of me that's. Really just and I really feel that that's what we've lost we've lost the trust in the system and to some account some degree in our public services and they are there for the good that we're all the people and then as you said them should be open transparent and accountable only by implementing the recommendations can something could be a positive move you know good positive culture in this and they found ways in the survivors feels rare to somehow pick up the pieces of their lives because we've been living this since the day happened so that must never happen again to any of the family because otherwise this will just rest and. They effect on the families and survivors will will it will be dreadful anyway but you know at least we can see something come from the from what happened that will help others in the future tragedies happen sadly at any time and the confect anybody Dorothy Greivis thank you very much for talking to us and she mentioned the form of the ship of Liverpool right Reverend James Jones who chaired the Hillsborough Independent Panel he's been talking to us he said this. I understand the family's frustration and anger today but nothing detracts from the Hillsborough Independent Panel Report or from the seconded quest which concluded that each of those who died at Hillsborough was unlawfully killed I know that the government is determined to apply the lessons that have been learned from what the families of gone through over the last 30 years it's vital that the family's perspective is not lost that was the right Reverend James Jones let's talk to Phil scraping his emeritus professor of law or Queen's University Belfast is a campaigner who who led the Hillsborough Independent pounds research team and is on the line morning to you good morning when people talk about lessons and we heard about them from Dr criticism we've also just heard from from James Jones as well what in your view did what is the process by which those lessons are actually solidified into something that is real change. I think we've got to understand what the impact of the delay has been and it is not only in Hillsborough I work in the north of Ireland and of course the delays here in terms of cases going through from inquest right the way through to prosecutions can be as many as 40 years. Those who would have been charged had they still being alive is a problem that we faced in this case because there were those that were identified by the Hillsborough Independent Panel who had responsibility on the day who had since died there were also the other issue that we have to learn is that in making these long time inquiries the Independent Police Complaints Commission as was now independent office for police conduct recommended the 23 people be prosecuted and only 6 have come forward to that point one being dropped in the process but only one in terms of the events on the day and sadly that was David Duncan field Well this teaches us I think is what happens over the passage of time and the impact on cases of that passage of time what we see during that period is the deaths of significant witnesses but also I think if you if you could put it no better no more bluntly then memory plays tricks with your memories a loss the hazy memories impacted by having read accounts in documentaries all of that but that then suggest doesn't and this is what the dark the groves of say that public institution public institutions that are accused of doing something wrong their vital thing perhaps the legally necessary thing becomes the things or investigate him a timely way that's absolutely crucial and is central to our legal system supposedly you know that cliche that justice delayed is justice denied is something that rings true in so many different cases what I think has to be really be taken seriously in this case and I I despair. I think having worked on heels before 30 years is the fact that we could see all the way through there was a really strong case to be answered that case was never answered and the the what we have to also remember is that the inquest that came in with this verdict with the 2nd inquest the 1st inquest were badly flawed again that he addressed through law through one eye I think what we have to look at isn't just the process of how the law goes through the courts it has to look at we have to look at how these cases are investigated this case was investigated by the West Midlands police in that situation we have to go right back to the core of the strength of that investigation they initially recommended several people for prosecution that was dropped on the basis there was insufficient evidence to prosecute now when we on the panel went through the same material that they'd had at their disposal and they also good interview people who were alive at the time we couldn't we came to a completely different conclusion and that's what triggered that's what triggered the prosecution eventually and it brought the 2nd inquest if you want to just listening to you now and thinking about grand fall and the inquiry going on there and the possibility in the future of criminal proceedings I mean it we go down the same path just and I think sadly to a certain extent we are I think that if you look at Grenfell and you look at the way in which it is being unpacked stage by stage what I'm concerned about is that those who are most affected as in Hillsborough those who are most affected by Hillsborough are their voices are being lost we're not looking back sufficiently quickly to the origins of what happened at Granville Similarly with Hillsborough we when we were on the panel it was essential for me not to just look at what happened on the day but to trace the history of how soccer was being policed what the state of the stadium was not just in the immediate Cond. But in the long term context one of the things that's so important in all these cases is that we have to look at the long term context the immediate context of what happened on the day or in the surrounding days What then follows in terms of how the process is investigated that the issue of Hillsborough and I would that this cannot extend to run full surely is that we have the corruption and I mean that with the small c The corruption of investigations in other words those investigations are not sufficiently Thora or they come to it with a mindset the mindset around Hillsborough was it was the foul it was it was the fans and the survivors who were to blame in other words the pressure was put on on those who died and their families but also on survivors and they still live with that they still live with that impact the final thing I want to say about that just leave you with yeah the extent of the dust we talk of the 96 I want to make it clear that over that time the deaths associated directly with Hillsborough cannot be estimated is far more than 96 those who have suffered premature death through physical illness and mental anguish professor feels great and thank you very much for talking to us it's just gone 20 past 8 the former m.p. Harvey Proctor has been awarded half a 1000000 pounds in compensation from the police after their bungled investigation into a v.a. V.i.p. Child paedophile ring he lost his job and his home partly because lease police at the time described the charges against him as credible and true he would also receive $400000.00 pounds in legal costs I only spoke to his lawyer Mark Stephens he said it was that police description of the charges is credible and true before they had been thoroughly investigated that was they damaging Well the police that received these false allegations Cole beach is now serving time for perjury. They had said that they were credible. And true even though there were very many warning signs which said that they shouldn't have said that and indeed their practice now is not to say that and so they've been very heavily criticized and until now had refused really to accept responsibility for it and so many people and Javi propter is the last person to live but many people in court occluding Lord Britain and Lord all had suffered with stains on their character during their lifetime and thankfully the proctor will be able to serve the rest of his life quietly with the benefit of no stain on his character as a result of this really large award of vindication in fact it's one of the larger awards ever made by the police. And yet none of the police involved have faced prosecution or dismissal in this is that an injustice that remains unsatisfied. I think it is and I think that you know the officers involved should have been and should so I think there are real questions that really ought to be answered and the police should be looking at them but Mr Proctor has raised those even now they're being investigated by Northumbria Police would this have got more exposure viewed carried on and taken this to the high court rather than settling in this way despite the large amount of money you got I think we would have gone more wrong and perhaps more condemnation of the police but this case was really about a vindication of Harvey Proctor which has been obtained it was also about the fact that the police should be alter their behaviors and they have so actually that would have just left it to be a case all about punishment and you know Harvey Proctor is not a young man is life was comprehensively damaged by this particular episode and I think it was fair to want him to have this award marks but also to allow him to move on with his life and to live the rest of it without will stain on his character which had been so heavily put there by the police until yesterday and the police's description of these original occasions as credible and true that was obviously clearly very important in the case and you say that that is not possible now what's changed. Well the police no longer have this practice of making the pre-judgments of evidence and I think they're also more careful about how they investigate. Child abuse allegations That was Mark Stephens hardly proctors lawyer it wouldn't be a little earlier now it's 25 minutes past 8 the b.b.c. Will take its turn hosting an election debate tonight with a 7 way podium encounter in college if they'll be a mix of leaders and senior figures Rebecca long the business out of business sexually standing in for Jeremy pope Corbin Richie c. Neck the secretary to the Treasury will be standing in for the elusive Mr Johnson Our own Nick Robinson will be moderating the whole thing we thought we'd ask people from different walks of life to give him some advice they will hear from a shepherd s a broadcaster a head teacher and a referee I manage you know as international referee I think you need to have empathy it but you also need to be we need to be steered because if you like refereeing a rugby match very control of 30 huge players on that field but you need a bit of empathy years where to allow them to to express themselves but they need to know where when the line is my name's Amanda I'm also known as the. My role as a chef is obviously to give a clear lead follow an update body language is everything just like a sheep dog that has a lot of our I never take yours off them with a steely gaze but don't let him pull the wool over your eyes I'm not a boat or non-consent. Moderating one of the. Latest debates I mean it's a technical exercise it's not something really testing your journalistic skills or your knowledge your office the traffic cop just like show that everybody has. Every get away with an absolute top goalscorer I'm Catherine was saying I am the head mistress of McKayla community school and when. In London well Nick you have to stop them from offering on so when they do you need to pause and stare at them over the top of your glasses with menacing intent remember that you can't throw truck at them anymore so if they don't answer the question don't put up with it 1st give them a warning 2nd time detention. So why are you throwing chalk Nick very helpful I'm sure but that seriously they want Wally's strategies to get them so on so if you ask a question they start going off on all the time to not asking the one you ask what do you do if you're not going to talk over them you joked about it Will you help lower the old out actually right next to a stair over the glass is always really I've got the detention of the teacher that said made all the red go out of the sports field in the whistle of the shepherd as not to bridge the trench into the traffic gulp so I've been they'd all be very very helpful really it is worth saying is Adam Bolton said that debates all great formats on t.v. Because they attract the sort of people who don't normally candidly listen to the Today programme or of the political help books but they are of course limited there's a limited role for the audience they pose the questions but they don't get to follow up in the way that they do on Question Time there's a limited role for me I and then to make sure the questions and said Good older is kept but I'm not there to be an interview and I think they're all right what they said You've got to have all thorough TB You got to have empathy the politicians have a job to do but to get that message across but also with all those gazes and polls isn't stood notice you've got to sort of say don't talk over each other because it's infuriating but let me not talk as x. But I'm done it yet let's see if I can get away with it tonight is going to be the same without Johnson I'll call been there what do you think the big issues dividing lines will be well it'll be the same because we're having Johnson and Co but you have to see these things as a package I understand why they're aroused at the moment about interviews and debates and people not that I remember some perspective this is my 9th the election all the way through Thatcher Major Blair Brown we talked of having events like this and no one would ever agree the 1st run has always refused to do it now we're having a much better debate which is shouldn't they turn up for all of them why don't they do everything we won't but the b.b.c. Would not only go ahead to it we've got to donate 7 had debate we also had a question to. I'm in which Corbin and Johnson were there with sturgeon Swenson and we've got a huge debate now I don't see this is an adverse it's to say there's an awful lot of accountability going on do I as a journalist wish that there was more of it they did all the interviews we want they did a little bit of course I do but I'm on this I'm afraid I'm a much more a glass half full man than I am a glass half empty going to have to stop you there Nic thank you very much indeed good luck tonight loves better professional advice very generous with himself in fact. What does that mean. Vodka Anyway let's pass it and that is Father's Day straight to Gary good morning dad have morning to you Spurs change their manager last week our arsenal set to do the same they haven't won for 7 matches their worst run since 1992 and I am really on the brink is the headline most papers opt for this morning following a 21 home defeat by I'm tracking Frankfurt in the Europa League so is he about to lose his job a question for Henry Winter correspondent to The Times Well I think he is I think not simply because the fans have turned on you know Emery the fact that he seems to have lost a lot of the players but I think there were so many empty seats at the Emirates last night. For the game against one try Frankfurt's And I think that the owner Stan Kroenke that's what concerns him most of the loss of revenue the fans turning on him as much as the results having said that Arsenal a normally very loyal with their managers are they well they are loyal they probably stayed on a little bit too long with the vendor for 5 years if you are some of the fans given the drift of the team but I think now in the modern age that we're in social media with the pressure that's increasingly placed on clubs I think with the fans just turning actively against the owner Stan Kroenke it as they have been as well as with with Emery I think it's only a matter of time and if he does go could you see Richie Opata Cino moving there that would be unlikely wouldn't it I think it would be very on. Likely although if you talk to Arsenal fans they have looked at what Joe's a Marine year has done going into Spurs and galvanizing them but I can't see them turning to a former Spurs manager in party tonight you simply can't go look at New know what will suit doing well pushing them forward up in the Premier League and in the euro police I'm sure they'll give the chance to Freddie Ljungberg who's the number 2 at the moment his caretaker and then it will be a question of do they want max Alegria or tet or Vieira Henry Winter thank you very much indeed my pleasure just to tidy up the Europa League situation for you Arsenal will actually still qualify unless they suffer a heavy defeat in their final group game Manchester United lost $21.00 to a stunner but they were through already through after a $33.00 draw with sporting branch a Celtic confirm top spot following a 31 victory over Rennes and Rangers will qualify as long as they don't lose their final game they drew 22 with fire not now lots of rain in Hamilton today so the Test match finished early with New Zealand 173 for 3 Simon Mann reports Tom Leighton's fine unbeaten century for straighted England on a day in which 35 overs were lost to rain after tea England's decision to bowl was a logical one with the pitch expected to ease further and they had New Zealand 39 for 2 broad dismissed revolver 5 to a loose shot and works account of the key wicket of Williamson for 4 superbly caught by root at 1st slip but let them dug in with Taylor they added 116 before Taylor on 53 presented works with a 2nd wicket and a 3rd catch for root England might have had more let them correctly survive 2 l.b.w. Shouts and was dropped by Stokes on 66 Taylor was reprieved on 25 by the 3rd umpire there seemed insufficient evidence to overturn what looked a plum l.b.w. Stokes struggling with a sore knee only bowled 2 overs England who left at Jack Leach and gave a debut to Zack Crawley playing for other pace bowlers partially to make up the stakes his inability to bowl is full allocation T.M.'s is on the radio this evening from 930 now after a 1st in a 2nd at 40 to one yesterday here your Black Friday bargains. Maybe 115 number 5 Glen force or 335 number 5 Captain Tommy thanks very much Gary let's hear who's joining Laverne for this morning's Desert Island Discs this week I'm casting away the conservationist and writer Isabella tree she's a pioneer of rewilding if you come in the spring you are standing in a landscape that really looks more like the Serengeti because it's this extraordinary thorny scrub interspersed with water meadows wildflower meadows and then wandering throughout it all we've got Longhorn cattle acts more ponies Tamworth pigs and then the surround sound birdsong and insects is now so loud that you can literally feel it reverberate in your stomach Isabella tree my cast away do you John asked to hear her Desert Island Discs this morning at 9. I remember the goal of Adar aphorisms I'm in that came to mind when you were talking to Nick their own it was it's not enough to succeed friends must fail us are all wishing Nick very well because sadly now it's going to be a chilly day I'm talking about the weather now some sunshine their shyness towards the north east frosty tonight you're listening today on Radio 4 Justin Webb and Simon Jack and Carolyn Nichols has a summary of the news the broadcasting regulator Ofcom has received an official complaint about Channel 4 after it replaced Boris Johnson with an ice sculpture during a climate debate last night the party said Michael Gove to stand in for the prime minister but were told the debate was for party leaders 5 of him took part the back seat party's leader Nigel Farage was also replaced by melting ice sculpture one of the u.k. 6 biggest energy firms and power has announced plans to restructure the business its German owners Iams said the u.k. Market was particularly challenging unions have warned the move could lead to thousands of job losses along with course Center closures. The metropolitan police has been ordered to pay nearly 900000 pounds to a former Conservative m.p. Who was investigated following false claims about a v.i.p. Paedophile ring Proctor had his home raided as part of Operation Midland they were paying council have a new president from today when the former prime minister of Belgium Shan Michel takes over from Donald Tusk the change is likely to bring a difference in attitude to Bret's it of which Mr Turner has been a vocal opponent. Thank you it is 25 to 9 there is more clear water between the parties today with Labor in the Liberal Democrats already saying they're committed to closing off stead least in its current form that's England's education watchdog the conservatives there today saying they would strengthen it separately of course there is quite a rug going on between the government and Channel 4 gammon Williamson the education secretary is on the line morning to you morning let's start with what you're suggesting for us that more money yeah we're looking at putting a short 10000000 pounds into office stead making sure that we strengthen it strengthen the quality of inspection quality of inspectors making sure that some of the largest school secondary schools and some of the largest primaries move to a 3 day inspection this is just to ensure that they look a whole range of different things from discipline in p. Sports and enrichment activities schools doing which is an area that of number of people have raised with the offset haven't looked Tatane off in the past years and did you know on that do you regret that off Stead's budget has been cut so significantly in recent years where this is why we're putting more money into office stead and while you can have a government that got it and now you're putting a little bit back in we we've worked very closely We've offset off said do an amazing job in terms of not just inspecting schools but my question was are you do you regret that had a really significant coding to the public accounts committee at full it a 52 percent in real terms between 2002070 you saying that was a mistake no we're not saying there was a mistake we were dealing with an economic crisis of late the last Labor government created and we and I had to made care what Wacko it was a it was 9 years ago but now Labor government is always tend to leave you with a big deficit and more in employment so we we've been dealing with that and what we're doing is we're recognizing we need to put more money into office that they do an incredible. Good job in terms of raising standards for children in schools working with teachers working with head teachers but they also to a very important job in terms of safeguarding making sure that local authorities children homes appropriate spectate and the issues that you have and the problem that you have with what Labor's and the Lib Dems are proposing you're going to have a 152 different inspection regimes by local account souls marking their own homework there's going to be no accountability in terms of children's homes or local authorities of what they're doing in terms of their children services so when most vulnerable children in society are going to be left with no one to watch their back and there is a concert. Let's turn to Channel 4. Days it always used to be a brick question yes well there are now on a Channel 4 question we had from Ed Vaizey from a conservative culture that recalls Enron who've said there was wrong on both sides in this but he said specifically that he did not think it would be wise for the Conservative Party to get into the business of threatening Channel 4 and what might happen to them after the election is that or is that not what the Conservative Party is doing at Nova Conservative Party isn't threatening Channel 4 we're raising a complaint we've all come which I think is perfectly legitimate young enough to Mr Vane's he said but it stops there there's no suggestion that you're going to look again at its public service broadcasting obligation no no suggestion at all it's good to see that it's odd because the conservative sources told The Telegraph if where re-elected we'll have to review Channel 4 s public service brokers will be there too we're saying that's just nuts men 2024 you've got to feed the review of chat channel for that's something that's been longstanding So whoever forms the next government is going to have that within their remit but that's not until 2024 we have a legitimate complaint because frankly you know they reduced the quality of the debate that's happened yesterday by refusing to let Michael go to go on a poet. Mission who is doing more in terms of in fire was invited to and it was a ladies debate but I mean I'm just interested in this this idea that Are you saying that you as a party at the moment are committed to Channel 4 existing in the same way as it does at the moment in the longer term future or is that up for review Well 2024 is a review of. Channel 4 there's no that's just what sets in legislation that says what is going to happen regardless of the issue that's been raised in terms of replacing a conservative representative and party representative in that debate with a nice chair it was a gimmick you know is a gimmick Channel 4 knows it was a gimmick they could have had a much better debunking a lot of people lot of people just going might say we want to get away from the guess what we want to know is where the Channel 4 can continue to exist in its current form and it has this strange that a hybrid existence doesn't but in its current form in the longer term future and you're saying yes what we saying is we have an issue we have a debate yesterday you know what I'm talking about we're already seeing that with off coal and it is legitimate to be raising that with off calm but that's for proper way to raise as an issue and that's for route we're taking down town so that's simple as that and Channel 4 ways an important role See I say Greece is a moving man to say let's plays an important role in a lot of people feel it does play an important deal they're worried that this government if it is returned with a majority might alter its row and what I'm not hearing from you is a commitment to not altering it but the government has got no plans to you've seen our money fast we've got no plans in terms of changing what Channel 4 does we have an issue which we're going to raise with off calm and we hope that of calm to look at this very seriously and Channel 4 respond to it as well it was a gimmick. As to what they did it was a shame that what they did it didn't actually add to the debate Michael would have been a real asset to have over on the show Gavin Williamson thanks very much 19 minutes to 9 the u.k. Is investing more money in Antarctica than at any time since the 1980 s. They'll be modernization of all the u.k. Research stations there as the new research ship the They've an atom brought to enable world class Polish science not to mention its robotic suburb ot Mike but face damed Jane Francis is director of the British Antarctic Survey who spent 3 decades researching the white continent as it's known she's an expert on ancient climates Martha's been talking to her about the new investment but began by asking whether countries around the world were doing enough to cut greenhouse gases even over the last few years when I've been working in the polar regions and looking at all the records from around the world we can say that they climate change is accelerating and 8 years ago you know people suspected something was happening and we watched it happen relatively slowly but in the last few years you know carbon dioxide levels are increasingly rapidly changing and there is an escalation of change this is another aspect of change in Antarctica there's been an increase in tourism in recent years 20 new polar expedition vessels being built in addition to the 30 year old that already exist and also in increasing the number of private yachts What do you make of that well I think some tourists some well regulated Tories tourism is not a it's not a bad thing I have been a lecture on a tour ship for one tour and somebody was there and this was a really good experience for me to understand the impact of Antarctica on tourists and I think that nearly everybody that got off the ship that I was on became an ambassador for Antarctica and people who wanted to preserve the environment so I think it can be a good thing but it does have to be well regulated and I think some of the crews to . At the moment his from the regulated cruise line is is well regulated they keep very strict rules and they protect the environment and they learn about the environment and they learn about what's happening in Antarctica so some of it is fine I think the threat may come from the individual tourists that are using Antarctica as a kind of the next big tourist playground and I do think that we have to be careful about where they go now your own work on Agent climates shows such a different world in Antarctica when we go back a 100000000 years to the age of the dinosaurs as you showed me as when we were back in Cambridge you know your headquarters. Yes Antarctica was a very different place so in the rock record there are fossils of leaves of tree trunks of ancient plants that used to grow in Antarctica everybody thinks that once there were forests in Antarctica that musta meant the continent was over the equator but actually since about 100000000 years ago like you say the time of the dinosaurs the continent has been over the South Pole in the position that it is now but Forest Grew in Antarctica and we have all the remains of the forests and the fossils of the dinosaurs that lived in the forests so we've been able to reconstruct temperate forests that look very much like Tasmania only New Zealand today so if you walk through the forests in Tasmania imagine a dinosaur walking alongside you and you'd be in Antarctica about 100000000 years ago clearly the climate was globally much warmer than to allow forest to grow in and taught and we can estimate that carbon dioxide levels were much higher and that would have been a natural source of carbon dioxide from volcanic eruptions but the years can take care of that but but on a much slower and natural timescale than the rapid speed at which we are putting carbon dioxide in the atmosphere today here rather have been watching the new wharf being built an immense engineering project that is needed for your new research ship as the sedated at Have you any idea of when it will actually be in service down here I hope in the next year or 2 we of course we've got to finish this building the ship and then it has to be tested it will probably be tested in the ice in the Arctic where it's a bit closer to home. And then we'll take it to Antarctica to do really big science I mean it is going to be a ship with a lot of really new state of the art scientific equipment in it and we'll be able to do science that we've not done before and we'll be able to go to regions that are more remote and that we've not been able to go so we can really build up a really good detail picture of the systems operate. In Iraq in and around Antarctica and how they're changing again Jane Francis from the British Antarctic Survey thank you for talking to us thank you but of course is not the time 14 minutes to 9 less than 2 weeks to go of course before the election we heard already from Nic this morning well he's also been speaking not just to us but to voters in different parts of the country to hear what people have been making of the campaign today his report comes from a head resting somewhere in Newport in South Wales he stopped off there on his way to Cardiff where as we've been hearing he is hosting tonight's t.v. Debate what would you like. To know top and some lights of a little my haircut but I just sort of polish my head occasionally. Some talk politics in the pub some talk of the water cooler or work of us over the weekly had to have come to shake hands so I'm in Newport to discover whether politics is on the agenda here or do you get shouted down if you even mention the election by name space I do try to sort of keep my opinions to myself because a people are so emotional about it and I think yeah you port is a bit like that emotional debate things walk at the moment it divides people a spec's it and I there's a lot of people are angry and upset about things you know what I hear I don't like enough to you you angry not sure yes I think I am angry this country needs to so itself you know stop all this mess and just add it really adding these are actual do that. The. Irish are goods. No I don't think I've met you in your Before I know because I come here a lot right. So you've got to be careful I mean I've got friends that's. Sorted I'm very. Into what's going on I listen to everything I've got Parliament on one day John from 10 o'clock on the phone to 10 o'clock in the night honestly I missed all my favorite programs. For America for our day to day program you know John Humphrys discarded and that's you and what's his name Jason just yes I think we should have another go I think people know more now of the market you don't want to say people was stupid or anything they just weren't given the information. In my name is a shock to me schoolyard stuff there were so many 1000000 people that wanted to leave and they should respect. The remains and I think that is to pay people for to take a bit more notice of what's actually going I don't agree with I'm still I'm working class the working class all my life for 41 years so I'm 60 next week and I still Michael weeks an extra 6 years for my pension but does that make you jump to divert your germy. Will give you the money back where you can get it from man who's going to pay for it in the end. You're working class on the money's gone home will give you learning about pharmacists one that. All the time and if you watch I mean it's not even willing to go on without a truly now for this interview when you hold him back because he can't you have to get out of the abscess he goes into no detail Jeremy Corbin wouldn't answer one question 9 times he was asked the other night on the t.v. And he refused to answer at the time we didn't watch that or did you read about it afterwards you know I read it saying there you are speak straight. They all conservative papers the mayor the express the telegraph you always at these sorts of arguments he said or is it only when they leave. We have a cup of coffee. Good afternoon Willy Salish temper I can't speak when you haven't done Jane. Thank you yeah you just order his car you drive. You often politics here in the south no you. Never talk politics and you don't call it that said you know Governor at what point do you mean you know I don't have a policy and with the b.b.c. Years ago I always voted Liberal and that was a. Belief anything it would be liberal that levee. You want to me send a message to Mr Corbett Yeah us to do is talk but not punish. You know he's such a simple thing. You know telling me that Jeremy Colbert is Scruffy you know it because I thought. He's really like 5th differently this hey you know which would you have a vote for Mr Colbert I always been late but this year my husband and I had to come out to the common market 3 years ago and I think Doris is doing well this be the 1st tell me the voted Tory. Yes he's shocked to hear you say. But what about all the other things Jeremy Goldman would say is all the money that he's going to put into public services the fact that he's going to try and make things work better for pensioners and for people of low wages for working class people he does not know when the balance. Definitely words were next but then you know we can look at things straight up and we might be. Already doing this mix in a kind of this kind of color it looks like he's mixed and she's going to put it takes on you have all but this is a 10 hour short amount of to get your next 18 really due to politics announced no I don't know just I don't know if I'm all right I don't listen to it as everyone else . I don't know anyone who follows a pattern these lot to me when the election he's got to have a clue. He's got some work to do I was doing. Some. Good stuff from McCarty It is 8 minutes to know I'm a regular update now from reality checks correspondent Chris Morris and stay Chris this is more like the record breakers than reality check today how many trees can he plant per minute was the world record. Yeah well all the parties have got ambitious targets on this Labor's out front on this issue talking about planting 2000000000 trees by 2040 and yes there's been some skepticism that's hundreds of thousands of trees a day which might sound a bit nuts to you and me but it is actually possible I mean to put it into perspective the committee on climate change that's the statutory body that advise the government says we need to plant one and a half 1000000000 trees by 2050 to help meet our legally binding target of net 0 carbon emissions So Labor's promising a bit more than that this is what John McDonald said earlier on the program the thing that people been raising this time and time again a massive tree planting program we talk about we're talking about you know we're talking about a 1000000000 new trees very 2000000000 I thought it was well it was true 1000000000 up until they're 2030 then to believe you're conservative billionaire doesn't know that it's wildness just a new law if you know but in Ethiopia your mother for you know Ethiopia this sounds fantastic Bruce true they planted 300000000 in one day. Did they really I mean I guess the broader point is that a vast number of trees were planted in one day in Ethiopia millions of people took part in the Countrywide effort but for example the head of one government linked organization told the b.b.c. Back in August they'd been ordered to plant 10000 of those trees that they had to pay for them so they planted 5000 instead but reported the full amount so I think a bit of skepticism is in order about exact numbers when they are big but it shouldn't deflect from the fact that mass tree planting can be done and is being done around the world but still the reality to be checked here is that it isn't a massive challenge for the u.k. To get to net 0 whether it's 203-020-4520 extension 50 from where we are now and there's some very bold targets being set in the selection. Yeah I mean the tree planting targets at the moment within the u.k. Only Scotland is really doing very well in tree planting it's an s.n.p. Priority and last year Scotland was responsible for more than 80 percent of all the trees planted in the u.k. Overall the Countrywide figure last year was actually pretty low but go back to the late 1980 s. And it was more than double current figures about 30000 hectares have been planted every year which equates to roughly 50 or 60000000 trees still not as money as Labor would need to plant but you know experts can plant saplings incredibly quickly some companies are starting to use drones to do it even more quickly so in a way it's really about logistics have you got enough stock to plant such huge numbers day by day year by year are you providing the right incentives to landowners to provide the space to tree planting and total tree cover in the u.k. Is far lower than in many European countries so of course in the end like many things is the political will really there to push it all through us Morris Many thanks for the time 5 to 9 when a woman speaks out about rape you expect that she says she was devastated by it if it happened to her most women in most circumstances are of course but when Debbie Harry spoke recently about her being raped affected her less than losing her guitar it led to some criticism of her and also some support from women who said she and others should be free to say what they wanted and what they actually thought Tanya sericea is here is lecture and criminology at Birkbeck College at the University of London and author of speaking out feminism rape in narrative politics and Sarah Green's on the line is director of The End Violence Against Women coalition morning to both Tanya 1st of all what did you think about Debbie Harry said Well I think that. It's completely understandable you know and it's a completely did legitimate response to an experience of sexual violence and I think what was interesting is this reaction and we need to remember the history of speaking out and that when women came together in the 1960 s. In the 1970 s. And talked to each other about their experiences what they realized was that the Homme of rape just wasn't recognized you know women told stories about going to police stations and being told oh well you know you should feel lucky because that's the only way anyone is going to want to sleep with you you know or you know didn't you have fun didn't you enjoy it completely dismissed and they talked about families friends doing exactly the same thing and what feminists did in response was women spoke about the trauma the high of rape and use those stories politically which is what I research in order to have society the law of popular culture recognize that sexual violence is actually a harmful and damaging bully you saying that now that it has been recognized that it is widely and properly recognised then the freedom to say whatever you want about how it affects you personally should just be that well I think what I would say is that it's probably a little bit of to mistake to say that it has been widely recognized but what we've seen is a real kind of focus on women and their narratives on how they act and that if they don't tell the proper story and act in the proper way then they get a negative reaction it's not just people like Debbie Harris we've seen it with kind of recent scandals around the c.p.s. And the players looking at women station media certainly more do you think. Exactly I think what time is coming to we are with a situation where the accepted or acceptable view of a rape survivor is that she really needs to present quite hall and or quite broken or she needs to tell her story in a way that is very emotional and so on and we find decision makers throughout the justice process from police investigators through to. Those making prosecution decisions and perhaps juries all tending to turn on you don't you not really presenting like somebody who's been really hurts and harmed and therefore you let's assume that in those terms then so does do what how does Debbie Harry's How does what Debbie Harry said. Have an impact on that well I think it's really striking because it's making us talk about it and that's actually a really good thing what we don't need of course is kind of them to switch to an alternative narrative of kind of a heroic resilience as if there are those who are really harmed and damaged or something and then those who heroically yes yes yes says you know it's a management to judge or it's just an attorney and not a matter then of criticizing it but it's also not a matter of praising her for what she has said well actually neither No I think the question is do we recognize sexual violence is inherently harmful or do we say women have to do a certain thing and act a certain when she wasn't saying she wasn't heartless He wasn't she never said that at all and I mean even we think that women have a right and all people have a right to sexual autonomy to not have to know their sexual consent ignored or violated and then how whether they respond doesn't diminish the harm of that shouldn't diminish the way that we react and the problem is that even though we have moved forward in terms of sexual violence we continue to focus so much on women and whether they're deserving undeserving and whether they do the right thing rather than actually just accepting that this is a well as a subject we should certainly come back to but for the time being Sarah Green from the end violence against women coalition and turn your series here as well from Berkeley College University of London thank you both that's all from us our editors were Tom's mother and Rebecca Keating have a very good morning. B.b.c. News at 9 o'clock the energy firm n power has announced plans to restructure its u.k. Business which is expected to lead to the loss of more than 4000 jobs the company which is German and has been struggling for some time and described the u.k. Market as particularly challenging unison said the move was a cruel blow for n. Power workers just weeks before Christmas the sister of one of the 96 people killed in the hills pre-state in disaster 30 years ago has called for all political parties to adopt the findings of a report calling on public bodies to be more transparent and accountable to extort the Griffiths said the conclusions of the report into the disaster written by Bishop James should be heeded to prevent another tragedy she was speaking after a jury cleared the match Commander David Duncan failed of gross negligence manslaughter Professor Fels crashin who led the Hillsborough Independent Panel's research team told today he was worried that lessons hadn't been learned for the inquiry into the Granville fire if you look at Grenfell and you look at the way in which it is being unpacked stage by stage what I'm concerned about is that those who are most affected as in Hillsborough and those who are most affected by Hillsborough are their voices are being lost we're not looking back sufficiently quickly to the origins of what happened at Randall the Conservative Party has lodged a complaint with the broadcasting regulator Ofcom after Channel 4 replaced Boris Johnson with an ice sculpture during a climate change debate last night Michael Gove was sent to stand in for the prime minister but the broadcaster said the invitation was for party leaders only the European Council has a new president with the former prime minister of Belgium Shan Michel taking over from Donald Tusk the change is likely to bring a shift in attitude to Bret's it of which Mr Turk was a vocal critic. A study suggests that a quarter of young people are so dependent on their smartphones that it's similar to an addiction researchers from King's College London say there can be serious consequences for mental health b.b.c. News in an hour's time Woman's Hour begins a series of interviews asking what the political parties are doing to win women's votes this morning Jane Garvey talks to Nicholas sturgeon 1st Minister of Scotland and leader of the Scottish National Party now media for Desert Island Discs with long Laverne. My cast away this week is the writer and conservationist Isabella tree she started out as a travel journalist but it was an adventure she undertook at home that would make headlines around the world in 2002 she and her husband Charlie made a controversial decision to take that hands off the wheel surrendered their 3500 acre estate to nature and see what happened despite bitter opposition nap Castle estate in Sussex just 45 minutes from London was transformed from conventional farmland into natural wilderness and now boasts a kaleidoscope of purple and pro butterflies nightingales turtle doves nesting peregrine falcons 13 species of bat and a prize winning author is about his best selling book about the project Wilding has been hailed as a landmark in nature writing she says we just love the feeling of life rebounding the noise of the birds and insects barking foxes roaring stags there is a sense that the very ground beneath your feet is coming to life again with worm cast and tails don't beetles fruiting bodies of funky moles you just feel like the land is heaving with life is about a tree welcome to Desert Island Discs thank you very much so you're 20 years into your rewilding project now for listeners who have yet to view your online webcam paint a picture for us what would we see smell and feel on arrival Well if you can.