Heres an example lets talk about what consumers can do, and we see it all over twitter today. I love avocados, and i dont want to support criminals of what do i do . I love my guacamole in the super bowl. Cocaine, heroin and now avocados, criminals are looking for new ways to make money. In the past, they turned to limes, but in the Western State they are finding that money does grow on trees. Avocados are more lucrative than marijuana and that has the cartel tightening its grip. Theyre skimming profits in avocado growers, a move criticized by a rival cartel. Pas [ speaking spanish ] the citizens are starting to take matters into their own hands, forming militia groups to protect local growers, and the military has also stepped in, but it has little affect on farming communities being affected by what are being dubbed blood avocados. A journalist is investigating how theyre tabbing into the industry, the Mexican Bureau chief, at Yale University where he studies management. And the author of the last narco, he has been covering it for years. And the technologies like skype and google, its not always perfect, but it allows us to expand our reach and bring voices into it. Explain the cartels link into the avocado tree. Industry . They first started going into the state institution that regulates the avocados, and every farmer needs to register with them. And register how much land they own and how much theyre trying to export, et cetera. So the cartel moved into setting up the institution, and they started bribing and threatening people within the institution to hand over the lists of information. They got ahold of extremely detailed information on what everybody had and tried to export and they knew exactly how much to extort from everyone, and thats how it started. You said that farmers have been victimized by the cartel. And talk about the tactics theyre using and the degree of violence down there. Thank you so much for letting me come on the show, i really appreciate it. The Knights Templar are an organization that have been careful to brand themselves as part of the community. And they frame themselves to be a social enterprise. And its the way they go to the farmers and start with violence. They have kind of a soft touch approach where they first say, my boss wants to talk to you and they bring them out and they suggest that maybe they want to contribute a fee, and they protect themselves. Exports, they say you should pay a protection fee because the state is a dangerous place, and we wouldnt want anything to happen to you. And thats kind of their strategy, and if you refuse, then they will take you out for some time to give you some time to think about the proposition, if you refuse again, then you might be dead. Or members of your family. I was reading reports today that peoples kids have been kidnapped and disappeared. First, yan, i want to read this quote from your article and malcolm, youre an expert on the Mexican Drug Cartel. And talk to us about the Knights Templar. Should we be treating them as a legitimate business now with legitimate funds some. No, i think you should treat them as an illegitimate business using illegitimate fund. Today important to know that the modus operandi of the Knights Templar, from what i gather, it seems to be not very different from that of other cartels and Drug Trafficking organizations that have risen in the past, whether it be the brothers in the late 80s, the la familia. They are businesses, and they look for any advantage, just like you know, just like any advantages they can have over the government by and the authorities, by donating to the people, employing the people, extorting people tainment, but sometimes that extortion comes with benefits. And youre looking at a society, mexico is used to institutional corruption, whether it be a cop bribing you or a member of the Knights Templar bribing you for your own safety, for your prosperity. Its not that new a Business Model basically in my opinion. Yan, are the cartels actually binding the business exportation . Part of the mo is they start employing lawyers and notaries, and give them the face phrase, either you work for me and i bribe you or i kill you or kip your family. And they use these notaries to forge papers to illegally buy up avocado plantations, and one of the sources i spoke to there mentioned that up to 50 of the avocado forms in morealia, is now effectively property of the cartel. If you think about it, malcolm, i think thats the divergence from the modus operandi of the organizations. What they found is particularly in chcan, to diversify the way they operate, they have done it for avocados but for other things too, like mining supplies and things like that. Where they condemn trade with illegal goods, and it helps them solve issues with laundering and these kinds of things, and i think its a slight difference from traditional modus operandi. Well take a break and come back to the conversation i promise. U. S. Spends about 1 billion on avocados from mexico every year, and whats the best way to apply pressure to mexico to handle its cartels . Pas [ speaking spanish ] were back, and were breaking down how a Mexican Drug Cartel has infiltrated the avocado industry, and that was an impassioned plea from a local activist. And whats our responsibility if all of this . I think its important to first recognize that the origin of criminal organizations and sort of what they do, theyre primarily business organizations that try to serve a demand. And most of these organizations, the most powerful ones in mexico have become so powerful because the amazing demand for Illegal Drugs that exist in the u. S. , and just the amazing resources that come from the high margins in that market. And thats what has created the way for them to be as sophisticated as they have. And it has created the resources for them to become as powerful and well armed as they are today. So the origins are all because of demand for illegal products. Okay, so got it, the u. S. Need to control its drug consumption to control the cartel, but the war on drugs has been largely ineffective for decades. But lets talk about the avocados. People say, i buy avocados from mexico and should i stop buying them and should there been a boycott some. Please dont stop buying the avocados. What you care about are the farmers in mexico. Theres no good to come from boycotting avocados. You have to understand that the farmers have no control over what they decide to do with the avocados, and theyre extorting a fee from them, and it doesnt mean that youll help the farmers or the citizens of mexico improve their situation by not buying avocados, it will make them worse off. Malcolm, whats the best way for the citizens, to help the farmers and penalize the cartels . I think that he brought up the Business Model and his point was right. He completely made me rethink what i was saying. Theres something how do i say this without coming across as horrible, but theres something positive about the idea of blood avocados. In that we have noticed over the years drug eradication, and sort of new crop for marijuana or opium in columbia and afghanistan replacing the crops has largely failed. In part, because the money not there, and the terrain is difficult in the hills of guerrero and its right terrain for certain crops. So we have seen, when you try to replace or get the farmers to do something else, the cartels are no longer making money off of that, organized crime will go into whatever. And in mexico, were seeing an increase in human trafficking, and thats the last thing went. So how does the u. S. Apply pressure . How do consumers apply pressure this. It might be worth looking at if blood avocados keeping violence down . Is it moving people away from Drug Trafficking . Yan, youve been there. Well, its difficult to estimate what the activities of the Knights Templar exactly comprise. Some estimates are 50 is Drug Trafficking and 50 can kidnapping and extortion, and other estimates are lower. One thing i heard when i was there, people stated, one the reasons why theyre moving into this, they didnt find enough people to participate in the drug trade. And thats why they started going into other products, such as lines, such as avocados and such as mining, which is another industry thats being affected. They seem like the mafia now. They do seem like the mafia in that theyre far more entrenched and they have had mayors leaked, who work for them and have been elected into office and representatives as politicians. And other officials, lawyers, notaries, i mean, if theres any job, theres always going to be somebody from the Knights Templar in that particular sector. So very deeply entrenched in society. Commenting on the violence, and we talked about it right now. He gives a video comment as well. Theres no doubt that the criminal organizations in mexico happen in many levels of o se 2006 and on, theres no doubt that citizens dont want them around anymore. The government will be walking a fine line in their attempt, as they are now, trying to rid cartels and create stability in the recently. Have they escalated the violence or have vigilante groups stemmed the tides of the drug cartels growth . I think its too early to tell. And i disagree with malcolm, i dont think that the knights of templar has increased a little bit, but mostly, it has remained at the same level. I think that now the Community Groups are beginning to take things into their own hands. And its too early to tell what happened. Partly because it has put the Mexican Government in a difficult situation. What do you do . You go after any person who is illegally using weapons or do you sort of target the knight templar, but because theyre so entrenched in the government, theyre protected by authorities at the local level. So you go after all armed groups, youre going to target the Community Groups more than the cartel. So its too early to tell. Its a very sticky situation i think, especially for the federal government. Speaking of the government, a lot of people are watching this program and wondering what is the government doing . Were coming up on the one Year Anniversary of the president s term, and he has shifted the conversation to economics and away from organized crime, unlike his predecessor. And does that mean that he doesnt want to deal with it publicly . Well, he made comments in july, where he admitted grudgingly the situation of it spiraling out of control. And earlier this month, there was an attack by the Knights Templar causing blackouts, and basically, it was the last straw for the federal government. So they sent in hundreds of extra olders and police, and they retook the highways. Before this month, most of the highways in the state were still under the control of the Knights Templar. And what the government is trying to do is get to the root of the problem, and the root of the problem is institutional failure, and you cant solve that by sending soldiers, and the federal government has a lot of work to do. I completely agree with you. I think that the government has to be very careful to shift mexico from violence into other things, which is good, but the problem is, he hasnt done anything internally to address what his strategy is going to be, if he follows the same strategy as the previous administration, and so i think, you know, if we look at where things are going right now, its just not clear, and i agree that just sending soldiers into the area is not going to deal with the most fundamental problems, which is this collapse of the local state. One of my friends, who i told you i spoke to today who had been in these situations, he was telling me while he was kidnapped, they didnt know he could listen, but he was listening to a couple of 16yearold kids who were looking after him. Basically discussing how do you feel about being part of this . And one was saying, i dont like it, but what else am i going to do . And the other was saying, its kind of cool. And they were having this conversation, and they were teenagers, and i think thats the part where the drug war strategy has completely gone wrong. It doesnt focus on the fact that these are operating within communities. They hire people from the community and exert their violence at the community level. And as long as we have the top down strategy and send soldiers into the community, it makes things worse. If you legitimize this, you further separate the communities and they feel less protected because they havent been supported. And the Knights Templar on one hand exerting massive force, and the army on the other time exercising equal force. When we come back, well talk about the alternative. And what does the shift mean now for how the u. S. Fights the socalled drug war. Think on that. Were back in 2 minutes. Welcome back, we have been talking about how violent Mexican Drug Cartels have expanded into the avocado business, e extorting from farms and buying up plantations, and this is more about more than farmers and average citizens. Yeah, definitely. I mean, there are also victims within the state government, within the municipal government. We coined the phrase, we mentioned the phrase, silver or lead. And one of the problems, a lot of the government officials, even the higher ups, you have this idea that if you do not accept the silver, you will always get the lead. And the Mexican Government is unable to give the idea that no matter what happens, they can count on the government to protect them. So a lot of the corruption is involuntary, and in the blood avocado business, a lot of these are benign people who feel they do not have a choice. And the government wants to solve the problem and give people the idea that theres an alternative to the situation, which gives them the idea that its not anarchy, where the federal government has no control over the basic aspects of society. And thats something that needs to change. Otherwise, this situation is going to continue to deteriorate. Jonathan says the problem is prohibition, which turns minutely processed agriculture commodities, which are cheap and easy to produce, into things that are astronomically more valuable and people are willing to kill and die for. Whats the u. S. Policy with the drug war that can push things forward . Some alternatives, and personally, and this is a controversial point on this point of view on this matter. I am for the kingpin strategy. Taking down the kingpins, and puncturing holes in the strategy of the cartels, and the dea loves it call it a horizontal playing field. And they look at it in terms of a football analogy, and i think that needs to be continued. I think with regards to institutional corruption, im going to sound very phobic here, but this is a quote from a former mexican official. Theres no sense of personal responsibility in mexico throughout the country. I would argue the same, actually, that we have the same problem here. I think too many of us get away some people get away with murder. You have about 15 seconds left, malcolm. So responsibility and underring what corruption is, and what it does to the society. And it sounds hokey, but they need that training. And the u. S. Needs to push that on people. Just like we need to push it on officials here. We have 20 seconds left. And give us your final thoughts. I think that the u. S. Should focus with the Mexican Government much more on rebuilding faith and confidence in the authority of the state, and the state can solve their problems. Thanks for all of our guests, and great discussion tonight. See on you line. Hello, everybody, and welcome to al jazeera america. Im David Shuster in new york, here are the stories we are following at this hour. Holiday nightmare, icy roads, grounded planes, and millions of americans not going anywhere any time fast. A massive winter storm is about to hammer one of the busiest travel a decision of the year. And the Supreme Court agrees to review the Birth Control coverage requirement for businesses. And stalemate in afghanistan. And