Its the inside story. [ ] inside story, im ray suarez. Over the past year or so its been proved by the state, they have watched the curtain open on condemned prisoners, strapped to a gurney and lethal chemicals introduced to the bloodstream. Some prisoners writhe, gasping for breath, thrashing against the gurneys restraints. Time. Several cases headed to the supreme court, proving tested methods of lethal injection violate the prohibition of cruel and unusual punishment. One by one pharmaceutical calls closed the door to government buyers saying they dont want their products used to kill prisoners. American pharmacists are speaking up, not willing to allow compounds produced as medicines to be used to cause death. Complicated times for the penalty in the states, even though death is supported by a large number of states and majority of medicines. Its harder to carry out. We have a member of the American Pharmacist association, dr Leonard Edloe who helped develop the new policy. The resolution reeds in part the associations participation in executions on the basis that such activities are contrary to the role of pharmacists as providers of health. According to your recommendations, what should occur . It goes advising as to what execution. A mandate or a piece of advice from your organization to the member . We have a code of ethics. Every year at our convention, or when the students graduate or at school they take a pledge and when they graduate they take a pledge. Its a healing profession. Advice. You are conscious of this resolution bringing into line with other associations in the medical arena. Well, that was the basis. We did a draft, a hard draft, supporting information from the american medical association, nurses. Its to where the rest of professionals already were. Do you think it was easier to pass, as a question to the members, given what is happening inside american death chambers over the past year, year and a half. With so many executions. Taking so long, and clearly going wrong in these executions. Well, there were still questions. If the person may be ordered to do it. And the questions need answers. Theres webbin areas talking about the new business. We meet it clear, we aleafed all the attention, work, and complicating things, things bigger than what they really are. But in the end i am sure some people are worried what effect this will have. I heard some people say that the government, State Government is going to form their own compounding pharmacist. If thats what they do, when they do that, that goes against their own state law which licences me. Im licensed by the board of Health Professions as a pharmacist. And pharmacy is a healing science that will probably get other people, people that are trained in medical care, doing trained. I wonder whether thats the crux of the matter. We have pharmaceutical companies doing Research Clinical trials, experiments, prove to have a therapeutic purpose, a purpose in response, and here they are being repurposed to kill someone. And if a pharmacist assists, in effect, they are almost having their licences repurposed to kill instead of heel, arent they . Well, thats the whole point. I look at my licence. And it says department of health. That department covers nurses. It covers doctors. It covers all these other people. But as a pharmacist, we have a bill in the house and senate wanting to recognise us as Health Care Providers which i am in virginia, but not in other counties. Its the ancient discussion of ethics. Going back to plato, aristotle, as to the common good. Like we had to answer did it affect our views on Capital Punishment. You know, i got to be honest. I look at it from an africanamerican, where so many people have been convicted, and then some executed, and then evidence comes up. They arent i have to weigh that in my involved even more. Its strange, you know, the politics in this thing, because in virginia there was a bill introduced by a liberal democratic senator to shield the identity of pharmacists who provided these drugs to the state department of core ections, and corrections, and a conservative Republican House of delegates killed it. Its strange politically. But ethically i think it should be reserved Capital Punishment should be reserved for the worst of continues, where there is death beyond a shadow. If we cant get that, it should be life in prison. Dr leonard edlob, of the American Pharmacists association, good to talk to you many shut down depots, others in practice perform executions. One state where support is strong, they have responded to the difficulties with using lethal drugs by using other methods of legislation. A legislature that helped lead a return to the firing squad. Welcome back to inside story, on al jazeera america. Im ray suarez. This time on the programme we have been talking about the increasing difficulty the state are having buying and using the drugs for lethal injections. Utah state representative paul ray helped return an old method of execution to use, so his state has a different position. He joins us from salt lake city. Why did you propose and help enact a return to the firing squad in utah . Thanks for having me. The reason being that the law is we have the Death Penalty in utah. The drawings are not available. We needed a way to do the executions so the thought was lets bring back the firing squad. We currently had, if lethal injection was institutional, we added the caveat was if drugs werent available within 30 days of the execution, the firing back was a fallback. Have you lost with concern or interest where one state or the other are executing men and women because of problems with the drugs. We have watched that closely. I started this a year ago, last march, i realised that the drug was not over. I watched oklahoma, arizona, ohio have issues in pulling off the executions. So this ended up being a timely piece of legislation. When is the last time utah executed anyone by firing squad . Actually, 2010. Most of the executions in utah in the past has been by firing squad. There was legislation in 2004 turning it to lethal injection. The people on death row still had a joys between firing squad and lethal injection. Help us understand what happens. Who are the people with the guns, whos in the death chamber. . First of all, its a volunteer, starting with the agency where the murder or crime took place. The agency has the opportunity to volunteer. They are this a chair, strap him down, put a hood over his head. That. The five people that are the marks men have. Attacked by the applicants on the fringe, the one that is would cause them issues. You know, you look at the wrigley brothers circus, they had to get rid of the elephants because they were attacked by extremists. I think the pharmaceutical companies thought that could happen to them, and that was part of the decision. I think the trouble with the use of drugs in states across the country is part of the beginning of the end of the Death Penalty, which is waning in public support and popularity. I dont think its the end of it. I think you might have a small minority of states that may change away from that. The rest of the states all we are going to do is change methods. Oklahoma is looking at a nitrogen chamber. Tennessee is looking at the electric chair. Most states are doing that. The ones that do will confined another means to do it. During the changeover from the earlier methods. Gas chamber, hanging electrocution, firing squad it made it more palatable to a lot of people to execute prisoners that way. Would returning to the old measures give some members of the public some hesitation . It may. But if you want the Death Penalty to be a deterrent, a peaceful going sleep is the deterrent. Theres pros and cons to having that. Most states will have a serious discussion do we want to continue or not. We probably will. The democrats will look to bring legislation to do away with the penalties. Well have that discussion too. Paul ray, thank you for. Thank you for having us. That was our guest from salt lake sid. Now Robert Dunham executive director. You heard about bringing back the firing squad as a backup option in utah. What do you make of that. I think theres a couple of things. First a lot talk about the firing squad and how gruesome it is. The government in utah had reservations about signing the bill because of how gruesome a firing squad is. I dont think youll see a national run to convert from lethal injection to firing squad. It is not going to happen. Utah was the only state that uses that method, and will be method. You heard legislator ray say the reason he brought it back and began the effort to do that, was the difficulty in acquiring drugs. Do you suspect it will happen in other states maybe the gas chamber or hanging. Theres four ways the states will act. Most states dont have executions imminent, they may sit back and see what develops in court, with the drugs. Others will look at compounding pharmacies. Some states will change the method. In 13 states we see bills to abolish the Death Penalty. Are we at a point where a lot of states are on the bubble and the trouble with the drugs may be the push that puts them in the other column. We are in a critical period. A period where a lot has been abolished abolished. Four states that had serious bills that are under consideration right now. One passed in the Maryland Senate judiciary. Nebraska and kansas have efforts under way with emerging support from conservative voices. We are at a critical point. And what this does, the lethal injection, the combination of the unavailability of the drugs, and the badly failed executions is eliminate the myth that you can execute someone in a peaceful way, and that at its core an execution against that persons will is a violent act. And so folks have to come to grips with that, legislators and the public as a whole. Thats an additional ingredient in the debate. In runs across the mapp and giving us the state of play, one category you didnt mention is one that caught my eye. Theres a lot of states with the Death Penalty on the books, that physically have a death row in their state prison. Thats right. They dont execute anyone. Thats right. Are they choosing by not choosing . I think that the inaction, in a lot of respects, reflect the ambivalence of republic towards the Death Penalty. A lot of studies over time talked of how the Death Penalty is a symbolic punishment, an expression of gross disfavour, a statement that you really hate the individual, and you want to the express societys disfavour. But most of the states dont have the some ask for executing people regularly. You have states like california, where you have death row backed up. Absences of resources available, and Governor Brown is faced with a difficult posture of having to build a new death row, with no one being executed. A wrinkled to all of this, the publics support for the Death Penalty is waning. Yes. What is pushing this along is not a distaste for killing men, not a lack of for, but finally people are taking act of the cost of running death rows, housing men there, the endless appeals, the 15, 16, 17 years between the commissions of crimes and the carrying out of the sentence. Might that finally be, as so many are reexamining what they spend in prison. Yes, cost option. In a real sense the recession hit home. The question is not just what it costs, but what can the states afford to do. What will they work with . Its clear that the Death Penalty is not an effective criminal justice policy. If you ask the chiefs of police, its to the bottom list of things that they think will help fight crime. We know its not a deterrent. The Brennan Center had a recent study that came out, when they looked at the causes and effects of crime, and said there was no evidence that the Death Penalty has any impact on the level of crime. When crime went up, it went up the same amount in Death Penalty as in nonDeath Penalty. In fact, the murder rates are lower in nonDeath Penalty states than they are in the states that have the Death Penalty. Robert dunham from the Death Penalty information center. Thank you for being was. The fight over Capital Punishment in the gurt is waged in the states. In boston, the trial of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev ended with a conviction in federal court and is moving to the penalty phase. All along Dzhokhar Tsarnaevs defense team said yes, he did it, but he shouldnt die. Still ahead on inside story. In 1963 victor fagar was executed. And 2001 there was an execution of the federal Death Penalty was not used, but is a rare occurrence, one that could come after Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, one of the Boston Marathon coconspirators was found using weapons of mass destruction, of conspiracy, aiding and abetting. 30 counts. The next step is the penalty phase, determining whether the 21yearold would die for his crimes. Erica pitzi has been covering the trial, thank you for being with us. What will we see when court fires up again . All right, court is firing up on april 21st. Well see a reseat of the earlier guilt phase trial, the idea that theyll present new witnesses, testimony, and you can probably bet that the defense this time around is going to pull out all stops. We know that judie clark is a renowned criminal defense attorney, representing joe, and they seem to, at least to a lot of experts and folks covering the trial, take it easy through the guilt phase. As you said, at the beginning of the outset of the guilt phase of the trial, she admitted, look, he did it. That is not in question. Moving into the penalty phase we are looking at the same jury, seven women, five me determining whether the penalty for dzhokhar life. In this case, i think you are going to see judy and the defense team push hard to make sure they get their clients life saved. He gets a life sentence, versus having to pay the Death Penalty. Several of the counts carry a death sentence. What is the line of approach. What is it about 21yearold Dzhokhar Tsarnaev that they want to convince the jury is worthy of consideration to they might spare them . What theyll do is take the jurorors back, going back to years in time. He was only 19 years old is what they are going to say, and theyll paint a picture of a confused college student. They started that process during the guilt phase. They had some of the little bits of this idea. The strategy that he was a confused kid, and easily influenced by his older brother tamerlan tsarnaev, who is 26 years old, and that this was all tamerlan tsarnaevs idea and he kind of muscled his younger brother into carrying that out with him. Youll find the prosecution pushing back on that because the prosecution is pushing for the Death Penalty, of course, and the prosecution is saying no, he was very much a willing participant here. When they found Dzhokhar Tsarnaev in the boat at the end of this, five days after the marathon bombings, they found him in the boat and he had writings in the boat where he blamed america saying yes, i did this, i participated in this because i want to punish america for all of the muslim lies lost in the wars overseas. So they are going to point to saying he absolutely is someone that wanted to do this, and was not influenced by his brother. Well see the defense push back on that. That means new witnesses and testimony which should be interesting. One of the things that judy clark brought up towards the end of the trial was that when you take a look at the evidence, the physical evidence of the bombmaking materials, you will not find a single fingerprint of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. The only fingerprint was tamerlan tsarnaevs, the older brother. It will be more of what well see, that the defense will point towards that evidence. What you are describe sounds like a second trial. How long are we looking at here. Paying. I dont know. The first phase took 14 days, right. And it was pretty intense, so emotional. Gruelling for the jurors and the folks in the courtroom. 95 witnesses, total. Again, the defense only had they put up four witnesses and took a little amount of time, one day. They rested their case there. It will be interesting to see. Its on the defensive at this point trying to save Dzhokhar Tsarnaevs life. It may be interesting how long they take with presenting their case. Could be the two weeks that they that. Thank you for joining us, erica pitzi. And thank you for joining us on this edition of inside story. Get in touch on facebook, follow us on twitter and watch us next time. In washington, im ray suarez. Often america on america tonight. The last rights. Why cant he do everything he can . I am doing everything i can. Im doing everything i think is best for everyone involved