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is it on the rise this week and an up front special? we take a closer look at christian nationalism and how it's affecting politics and civil rights in the united states. ah, joining us to discuss this is anthia butler, chair of religious studies at the university of pennsylvania, an author of white evangelical racism, the politics of morality in america. amanda tyler, executive director of the baptist joint committee and contributing author to the christian nationalism and the january 6th insurrection report. and kristen do may professor of history at calvin university and author of jesus and john wayne, how white evangelicals corrupted a faith and fractured and nations and provocative titles around here. it could be a thank you so much for joining me. i want to start with you 1st, but the term christian nationalism has cropped up at various times in u. s. history. and some would argue it's a, had a consistent present since the countries founding. awful connections to white supremacist groups are like the k k k, r to the more recent patriot front. a christian nationalism is by no means new phenomenon. taking its history into account. how do you define christian nationalism as it is today? actually simply, i just defined it as people who believe that god created america for a purpose that america is special. in other words, when you are a christian nationalist, you believe that god created america as a christian nation. first of all, 2nd debt, white men who were the founders of this nation were also christian. and that 3rd, that chris, the entity is the most important religion of all that really flies in the face of a lot of things that the founders and the from, you know, all the founding documents, absolutely, to arrive, disposition that fabricating what i've never understood. absolutely. and i think, you know, one of the things that i find troubling about this is the 2 things. actually, one is the way in which they get it all wrong about the founders and the framers and things that they've said. and what are documents, say in the declaration of independence in the constitution, you know, no religious tests, they believe in religious tests then and there's a big religious test that christianity. but at the same time, they don't want a lot of government, but they want a christian government. and so these are the things that i call the tensions within christian nationalism about christian nationalists who can't really get the story right. honor and you know, for all of us around this table, we might have different iterations of what we think christian nationalism is. but i do think it largest in very much in the history of this nation. how it was founded and why it was founded. and everyone trying to put a divine sort of approbation about america. on top of everything. christian christian nationalism has had like a revival. really struggle with the 970 s. when evangelists on the right kind of align themselves with the republican party. presumably in an effort to kind of galvanized an anti liberal movement take us through what's happened over the last my god, it's been 50 years. i didn't realize 70 to 50 years ago. the last half century. what's happened and how the ideology has kind of involved over time. you're exactly right. so the idea that america, as a christian nation, has been around for a very long time. but what we're talking about today, the current kind of explosion of conversation around white christian nationalism really can be traced back, the 196-1970 emerging in the cold war era. now just before that you had a strong sense of patriotism, right? and we had a common enemy in communism. and christian nationalism was often something that united americans together not just, not just right wing polity. exactly, kind of consensus era in the sixty's that starts to splinter and we have the civil rights movement, the feminist movement, and the anti war movement. and that's the we see some of these core values of patriot has done of christian america, of gender traditionalism kind of come together in an oppositional movement. so that we have people who are holding to these values are doing so over against other americans, over against civil rights activists over against feminist liberals, anti war activists. right. and so it becomes this kind of oppositional movement and allies with the modern republican party. and that's really this christian nationalism that we are seeing today, but it has been brewing for a very long time. in white, evan jellico spaces right anthea talked about kind of this mythical notion, right. this is an inaccurate understanding of our nation's past ignore as a lot of our founding documents. they will talk about the myth of the separation of church and state. but this has been cultivated in these spaces for decades in sermons, in popular literature, in christian film. and so it is really pervasive, and we're really seeing that the fruits of those seeds very clearly today made christian nationalism and evangelical is often sort of conflated, particularly in the context of trump, in the air of trump. we're kind of the followers that kind of all in the same mix, but many argue that these groups are actually not the same that they're distinct. what specifically distinguishes christian nationalists from evangelicals. well, i think it's important to note the christian national as christian nationalism as an id. ology is a problem for all of the country and it's a problem for all iterations of christianity. 1 so while it would be convenient to say this is totally aligned with this one expression of christianity. i don't think that's accurate. i think that christians from across from all the different denominations need to wrestle with chris christian nationalism and understand how that's different than christianity. i think that christian nationalism though can help explain why evangelists calls as a voting block, white evangelicals voted in such high numbers for trump, what makes it even eloquent, evangelical? well, that's a, that's a 1000000 dollar question. yeah, but i think that it's become a term that's more about identity than about religion, especially for white evangelicals. and that's because they're voting in such walk step for a figure like tromp and then now for trump accolades, who are running in this in this election. so it is more about an identity that carries with it assumptions about nativism and authoritarianism and patriarchy than it does about a religion of christianity. so it's not a particular faith claim, or a particular orientation, particular theological disposition or both. but i think it's both about, i think, increasingly we hear it as more of a political movement than a religious identity. and that's concerning from, from the group that chris, i would say it this way and i'm interested here. kristen would say to, i would say that it used to be a theological construct that lot lay in kind of ideas. they came out of the 17th 18th century. what, what does it mean to be evans i'll call, you know, when we think of the word, evan jellico with which is basically spread the gospel in the good news. right. this is how evans locals always thought of themselves. what we see now is evan joke holism being acquainted with politics. and so i've said before, i wrote an article back in 2012 about this. and i said that republicanism was a new religion. and that this was a religion that had aligned itself with evan joke, lism. and i think i explained them to me this fascinating and confusing to me. if we say it's a political identity. yeah, we say it's rooted in a particular sort of christian values. ron's hurting the good news. i get that there are competing interpretations and ideas about what it means to be christian about what the good news is about the new testament about geez, i get all it it right, but i can't imagine any iteration that makes sense. and corresponds to trump, and yet evangelicals tied themselves to trump. if you are, you've been jealous of any sort, whether you are, even if you thought of it of a thought of it as a left wing idiology, if you thought it was a right wing idiology, you were a quote unquote bible thumper. and you were, you know, i mean if you were a literalist, did you, i mean, there's no version of this thing that makes sense with trump presidency. his identity, his character, his history, his c, y means people picked talk somebody, please help me understand that i'd love to take when land go, so you write them. evans all calls will define themselves as a theological, as a group defined by their theology. and they'll talk about things like a born, again experience and the authority of the scriptures and i, the centrality of the cross of christ, right? this is how they will define themselves, at least their leaders well as a cultural historian, when i was looking at the history i saw that didn't really hold together. it doesn't make sense because the vast majority of black protestants in this country for example, could check off all those boxes and they do not identify as evan jellico because it's very clever. just good. identify them as them either are most do not write some, some will claim them, but not actually, you know, they won't be in the same churches together or in the same organizations in many cases. and so i see evans alcoholism, largely as a cultural movement and a system of networks and alliances. so if you want to understand evan joe localism today, you have to look at the organizations at their, at christian publishing, at these massive industries. it's a consumer culture christian radio, and so it, it shares that quote, unquote christian world view and a far and wide through this popular culture and through membership in these organizations. and that membership is police right. there are gatekeepers here. and it's those organizations that then unite with political organization. now the story is, how do we get from this understanding of angelica led them to support of donald trump? that's where we have to bring in the politics and the power. because within these communities, they have for half a century now cultivated this understanding that they are under threat, that they have to fight to restore christian america, and that the liberals are against them. everybody is so they need power. they need power in order to restore christian america and trump came in and he was the right guy for the job precisely because he was not constrained by traditional christian virtue. and he told them he would fight to protect christianity, and they actually called him their alternate fighting champion. he was their warrior and he would be ruthless on their behalf to preserve their supremacy. exactly. and supremacy is the right word here because there's one more thing. dad, he was for white people, period. and so this is the thing that i get at in my book is that i want people understand that evansville calls have always had probably about race. so you say racism is a, is a feature, not a book. it's a feature of this and, you know, there's one kind of history that we talk about it ever juggles them that great abolitionism, you know, trying to get the vote suffrage all these things, right. even with the civil rights movement, right. but there's another history about evan junk, elizabeth separating because it's wanting to have slave southern baptists, k k, k who start the k k, k, a pastor or re, you know, we have we fighting against king because they are evil because they are trying to you serve the status quo. we see how this goes, right? so by the time you get to trump, right, what have you just had before? drop or black president? brock. hussein obama, who can't possibly be from america? who is, you know, you serve or who is why tea party movement happen? and then you get donald trump and all of these people who are evan shawl calls in 2016. you have a rise in people who vote for donald trump in 2020. but what studies have found one in particular, i'm sorry, i'm forgetting the name that they said more people call themselves. evan chuckle because of what happened in 2016 in not because they thought they believed in this particular kind of christianity. it's because they believed that eman jelic cole is a met, white to them, and that is the core of all of this. the whiteness is embedded in american. evan jacqueline, you could have black emma jackal. you could have latino evan juggles, but white evan jell calls are the cynic one, not of everything. they are it. and so as a voting block, they are the people that they go for. and let me say this very clearly, because this is the way you need to understand why average others like donald trump . donald trump delivered donald trump delivered supreme court justices over 200 justices. donald trump delivered for them, he was there deliverer. and from them we say delivered supreme court justices, we're talking about justices who would overturn roe v wade. that's right. okay. and which was the thing that they have been fighting for for a very long time. and so he got those justices. he got those justices when he lined up everything for them. so why wouldn't they go to the capital and fight for him? why wouldn't they go to the ballot box and fight for him? why wouldn't me believe that the election was a lie? because donald trump was ordained by god to be in that particular position. and so that's what evan jericho's think right now who are for donald trump? a chris it in your book, jesus and john wayne, you write that evangelical support for former are present. donald trump is the combination of evangelicals embrace of militant masculinity and the callous display of power at home and abroad. those are ideas that seemed again to be at our with some of their funded mental faith claims fundamental beliefs. how do you reconcile? how do they reconcile these things? do they attempt to record? and i'd love you to weigh on this as well. i mean, how do they reconcile this stuff? yeah, i mean, they did seem to be when i 1st started this research, which was almost 20 years ago now actually i was, was looking at popular angelica books on masculinity and how to be a christian man. and this is a huge market, right? these books, some of them are selling in the millions. so vast market and people are men are studying these in churches and in small groups, what does it mean to be a christian man? why read some of these? and i was surprised because there weren't a whole lot of bible verses in these books. instead, they looked hollywood heroes. they look to mel gibson's william wallace from the movie brave heart. that's their favorite. it looks a cowboys and warriors and soldiers, and john wayne. right. and this not like jesus, not jesus, right? but then what they ended up doing is they transformed jesus, they transform the jesus of the gospels into this warrior christ. now you can find some passages and revelation to work with and to build on. and then they make jesus into the like, man on it with big muscles on tattoos, down his leg, charging into battle, wielding a bloody sword to slay his enemy. so when they're talking about following christ, right, that's the christ that they're holding up. not the christ who says, love your enemies, love your neighbor, turn the other cheek and put that sword away. and so their theological work actually being done to transform historic christian teachings in the service of their own quest for power. amanda, you said the christian nationalism was a political ideology, not a religious, didn't, as you've talked about here. but christian nationalism is distinguished from everyday political conservatism. why has this kind of nationalist ideology been attached to christianity in the us? in particular, there's always been this disconnect about who we say we are and who we really are. and so who we say we are as a country, as the country that embraces religious freedom for all its right there in our founding documents, no religious test and that their will are government will remain secular so that religion can flourish. but christian nationalism which privileges christianity and says, there is a special place for christians and american society has been running alongside these ideals all the way. and so i think it's just been there for people to seize upon and try to organize around. and there is cultural lint, legitimacy still to being a christian. there is a special place, it seems, and different in elective office. all of our presidents, for instance, have all professed christianity that even though true exactly, despite there being no religious test for public office. and so i think that we, we see this tension in our society right now. and so there's something still a culturally current about being a christian and professing christianity that provides cover for what is really become authoritarian action in, in our current contact. i want to drill down a little bit on this question about the kind of foundational documents of the united states and how they say there's no religious test and how they establish separation of church and state and said, and the thomas jefferson referred to this, that was meant clause in the 1st amendment as a wall of separation between religion and government or as we come to call it again the separation of church and state. but christian nationalists seem to want to undermine this, which wouldn't be so weird if they weren't also brandishing the constitution, the constitutional rhetoric about freedom and democracy and liberty. yeah. how did a record of this maybe math maybe actually would be asking this? well, i think probably the question isn't, you know, how are they doing it? the question is, are doing it and they don't really care about that history. thomas jefferson, what is it? this is disingenuous, go, disingenuous. it's absolutely disingenuous because as many people know around the table, there's lots toms that have been written about history from a very strange perspective i. e, david barton, who writes these histories that are not real histories about america and american religion, right. and so when jowers jefferson is writing to the church of danbury, connecticut, and saying, you know, there should be this while there's no, we're not doing this right. they don't care that thomas jefferson had a koran. they don't care that the koran is sitting right down the street and d. c at the smithsonian. what they care about is that god made this a special nation. and so when you talk about this nation being special, those documents, you can read them how you want to read them because you don't read the same history that kristin is teaching in her history class. or i'm teaching in american religion class. they're not reading that stuff. they are reading these kinds of made up. tomes. this is, this is a nostalgia movement. and we have to think about christian nationalism as nostalgia nostalgia for time. that never existed. nostalgia for a time that didn't exist at the beginning of this nation. why did people come here? they came here to escape. you know, piratical religion. it england. they wanted to have religious freedom to do what they wanted to do. they were religious people. and now we see this being used as no, no, no, we need to have a state religion just like england. this is crazy, right? because you're doing exactly the thing that our founders and framers were with battle for. and so i think what we have to really understand about people who are embracing christian nationalism right now is that they may not get all the nuances around this table, right? they just hear this as another phrase in a whole line of phrases like make america great. again, american exceptionalism, the greatness of america that have been spewed out from different kinds of people throughout our history. kristin and some would argue that christian nationalism is gaining political clout, a number politician like marjorie taylor green. lauren bober and republican pennsylvania goodman and tauriel candidate doug master nano, have all been increasingly in the spotlight while towing the christian nationalism line. is christian nationalism influence on the rise, or is it a matter of these voices being louder and taking up more space in the political discourse? it's both it's about. and that's something that we've seen really just in the last few months of initially when scholars social scientists. and so we're surfacing this and saying this is christian nationalism and, and it's authoritarian and anti democratic and it's all of these other things we saw inside christian spaces among those who are promoting christian nationalism deny that even existed and say that you're just mirroring us for being patriot and then within just weeks we saw the rhetoric shift and we saw people like marjorie taylor green. come out and say yes, i'm a christian nationalist nationalist. lauren bober and proud of it and. and not just that, but all christians ought to be christian nationalists. and then all christians are christian nationalists. amanda, we have seen the overturning of roll the way to landmarks federal ruling, the guarantee the right to abortion, a wave of anti trans legislation government funding earmarked for religious education. all of it's kind of part of an alarming shift in policy and judiciary rulings tied to the far right going forward. how is christian nationalism going to affect the fundamental and really the basis of civil rights for people in the united states? yeah, i think christian nationalism strikes at the very heart of civil rights for all americans. i've said that christian nationalism is the single biggest threat today for religious freedom for all, because a cut against that core foundational idea that our belonging in american society should never depend on how we worship, or how we identify religiously and christian nationalism trying to blow all of that up. and so one part of christian nationalism, of course, is this, that the united states should be declared a christian nation. very alarmingly, there is a new poll out that a majority of republicans believe that the united states should be declared a christian nation, even though a majority of republicans also know that that's and constitutional so, so they understand. that's why i don't believe that that christ, those who most spouse, christian nationalism really believe in the 1st amendment, they don't, they believe in a system of government that would privilege christianity. and then unfortunately, it's a fascinating given how mellow dramatically they have talked about. yes, going into the middle east, how they need to tear down islamic government slamming states. they've denounces alarming nationalism and religious tests of other sorts of in there really thing we don't have a problem with states and religion. we just want our state now. religion. i think you got it. i think that's exactly right. that the hypocrisy of condemning religious nationalism on the world stage while trying to embrace it at home. but that's exactly what's happening. and i think in a post ro world, we will see attempts at religious laws being passed in the state legislatures. and at the same time, the u. s. supreme court in the last term, not only with the dogs decision, but also with really landmarks, decisions trying to destroy the wall between a separation between church and state, have under cut the legal protections and that, that could become a reality. i think this is incredibly concerning both for civil rights of all americans. and especially for those in our public schools. i'm really concerned about christian nationalism and civil rights of our youngest neighbors to those in the public schools. and. and for instance, if we might see more state sponsored religious exercise in the public school, as well as of course, the attack on history being taught in the public schools, they would much rather teach the mythology if a christian nation than a candid history of the united states, we could, we could look into the schools with dinosaurs around the curriculum, and we're going back to creation creation stories. well, i mean, i can't believe we're having this conversation, but we no longer have the legal protections or the support of the, of the united states supreme court. and helping us spend off a tax like this. and so it's going to be up to those of us who are, who are concerned about christian nationalism who don't want to see this is a religious state of who care about religious freedom for all people to stand up and huge, those foundational ideals. but what i think the 3 of you for an amazing conversation, right, that is our show up front will be back next week, the little bombing, they train and sit in a multi 1000000000 dollar industry with emission challenge by fermentation and cultural tradition. hollywood thing on which is, you know, the weight for the world cup is meily over. as the main event gets closer. i'll just hear, i hear every step of the way. i'm going to go with one month to go. we focus on asia teams can expect some strong support hearing got caught up with the pressure of hosting with australia make the most of squeezing through the player or will it be south korea, japan saudi arabia or iran progress for this? the world cup countdown on it, jesse, you know, when the news breaks, it's not just personal property, but also an infrastructure that now leaves fixing from power lines to water. me when people need to be heard and the story told they would get punished and they spoke ukrainian. i'm afraid i won't be able to return home with exclusive interviews and in depth report south african penguins. one is in heavy al jazeera has teams on the ground to bring you more award winning documentary and live a sense of belonging. cna, we always look for ways to be together. and the everyday heroes keeping communities together is top, a leper is transforming every day in the 1st part of a new series, i'll just, you, of visits is stopped by law in mexico city, where locals are turning a notorious municipality into an urban utopia. a sense of community on a jazeera ah.