Joe biden even intervene to make transport strikes illegal. Joining me now is labor journalist, hamilton nolan, north of the have a power and equality in the struggles episode of labor. Hamilton himself played a key role in unionizing the workforce at gould media. You joins me now from new york. How old is it that you so much for coming on . I understand that your book, it made the usa today best seller list. What drove you to right and how come it struck such a cord, seemingly in the United States and in the election . Yeah. And uh, well, i have been a labor journalist for a long time and i, as you mentioned, got the opportunity to help organize my own workplace, a golf or media in 2015. I got a chance to see the Labor Movement of both from the outside of the journalist and from the inside as somebody participating in my own union. And you know, as a backdrop, to this book, 50 years of rising in a quality in the United States of america, particularly since the reagan era has let us to a point when people have gotten fed up. And Public Opinion polls tell us today that unions are as popular as they have been in 60 years in the United States of america. So i think that we may have finally hit a Tipping Point when people are ready to reclaim the work or power that has been lost to them over the past generations. Yeah, it was the old, even of the Academy Awards to hear people talk about the successful Writers Strike over there. But at the same time, what exactly happened with joe biden in the transport work as a he see you next to the lord to stop the strike. Yeah, joe, biting um likes to tell himself as the most pro Union President of our lifetimes, which i think he probably is, although its the extremely low bar. If you think even of democratic president s like bill clinton and brock obama. So the ones in my lifetime did not really spend a lot of their own Political Capital to help prop up unions or promote work or power. So by, by those low standards, by and as been a very pro you, your president. However, as you mentioned, when the, when the Railroad Workers went to go on strike, which would have been the biggest strike of his presidency. He did use his power to prevent them from going on strike, which is unfortunately, has become the standard for president to under the Railway Labor act, which is a sort of a lot designed to contain worker power in those Transportation Industries. But it could have chosen not to do that fundamentally. And the fact that he stopped that strike, i think, is the biggest market against him. And his claim to be a real, probably a new president , some of the constitution coming to action that to protect workers. Unfortunately, theres a, you know, us labor law is very insight worker fundamentally. And especially in, in those Transportation Industries which have their own law called the Railway Labor acts, which restricts them even more of the private sector workers. So its, its very difficult for those workers to pull off large scale strikes because the government has given itself the power to order them not to do so. So its like if they really threaten corporate profits, thats what comes into action. I mean, in the fiftys hollywood, of course, at bottom, brando and on the waterfront, use this part of the cultural propaganda war to destroy the reputation of trade unions across the United States. What are they using right now then . Because seemingly people are saying, yeah, union is a good but at the same time as the railway work, as the strikes shows underneath the surface, there are subtle ways the powerful can use to stop work is organizing as well. You know, since since the 1980s in particular, and since the Ronald Reagan era, the unions have really declined culturally economically socially. Mathematically in all ways, uni density has been on the decline with the rise of the regulations from the reagan era. And then with the rise of the liberalism, that was promoted by democratic president s as well as public and president s. I think that however, we have reached the time when that might be changing. And particularly since the pandemic years when tens of millions of American Workers found themselves at work found themselves in crisis, found themselves deemed essential. Workers without the given pay raises all those things that serve to kind of radicalize a new generation of workers in america. And i think culturally and politically and economically were, were starting to see a potential turnaround in the way that people think about unions and labor and america. And the question is whether the Labor Movement itself, which is kind of been rendered weak over all these decades of decline, can take advantage of this moment. So if the people are in the United States are watching this and want to form a trade union in a private sector business, tell me what obstacles are gonna theyre gonna come up against to prevent them from organizing their labor. Well, the 1st obstacle is that the labor laws in america make it very easy for employers to retaliate against workers for tried to form unions. Even though it is technically illegal for employers to retaliate for, organize, and activity. The penalties for doing that are almost non existent, and so big employers know that its actually in their interest to do things like fire workers who try to organize to intimidate workers who try to organize. So those tactics come with such small penalties that companies are really economically incentivized to crack down on unions and pursue Union Busting so that, thats the 1st obstacle that workers have to encounter. And the other obstacle really is, is again, the weakness of organized labor itself, all of those decades of decline had made it very hard for workers to do simple and basic things like get in contact with the union are for nicer. Find a union that is willing to put the resources behind them to pursue a successful organizing campaign to fight against employers that already investing. So on both sides, workers are, workers are dealing with obstacles, both of the company being able to step on their necks and then trying to find the union that, that is willing to help them out and back them and their struggle the a, f l. C. I o in the book, you call them a media greenhouse loving from. Its known around the world that organization has something that is promoted death squads and torture, low across latin america. And in the global south, tell me what the f l c i o is. First of all, because many people might recognize it as a cut out of the intelligence agencies. How, how its supposed to help trade shooting and said, work is around the world, but actually as being performing a different role to buy. So they have also is a, is the largest federation of unions and United States of america. 60 unions. It has around, i believe, 13000000. 00 total members. So it is not a union itself. It is a, it is a Labor Federation, the biggest, the most powerful Labor Federation america. As you mentioned throughout the history of the eso, it has been played by a lot of problems, not the least of which are some of his Foreign Policy, Foreign Policy positions that is taken over many years. Its also, its also historically been a fairly conservative Labor Federation is always falling on the conservative spectrum of labor history. But the fact remains that when you look at organized labor in america for better or worse, the f o c o is the organization that sits at the center of it. And most Union Members in america are technically members of the f, l. C. O. And so when you think of the starting point to build a stronger Labor Movement in america, it is going to start inside the f l. C o like it or not because that is the organization that exists. That is the table that. Busy or most of the biggest students in america are sitting around. So its a, its an organization that has a lot of potential um, domestically at least 2 to be the place that helps to rebuild the labor moving in america. But it has always suffered from conservatism and a little bit of a lack of ambition and a lack of a vision. You called it mediocre. Yeah. I love being. Yeah. Um and you know, this statement, im 3, give you from the middle east. On the genocide in the middle east, was they recommended a, a negotiated cease, where they would even clear enough, unlike many other trade unions about whats happening here in the middle east to cole for a purpose, east fire and gauze. Yeah, i mean its, its always going to probably be disappointing to look to the have whole seo for more leadership is the time to abolish it. And its not something new, like many unions are going their separate ways and they have done every day when theyre a more conservative elements in, in the organized labor that it preventing them fight for their rights. Yeah, there have been instances in labor history when the more progressive unions and unions that really want to pursue organizing have split off from the seo. It happened early in the 20th century when they formed the c i o. And it happened again in, in the late 20th century, when they said, article is called, changed when, oh, those instances where unions that wanted to pursue Big Industrial organizing. And they were frustrated by the f l. Cios, reluctance to do that. So its always, its always been the same thing with apple c o. However, abolishing it, the problem is if you abolish it, you just have to rebuild it again from the ground up. So i would like to see it taken over and used as, as a tool for good rather than abolished. So tell me about sarah nelson. I know in the reagan the error breaking the pilots union was a major part of Ronald Reagan in the eightys to for which the new liberal will be now exist in. And i also dennis consider to be able to see our interview with him. He is, might be going for congress, a game. Talk about all the nefarious ways, attempts and made to destroy political power. That helps workers. Why is there a nelson, is that you here for you . In the book, sir nelson is the head of the association of flight attendance, which is the, the union for a flight attendance, the United States. She is sort of the running central figure of my book. Shes very passionate progressive firey, labor leader that ive always admired as the labor journalist. One is versus Union Leaders that, that i ever interview, that i felt like really grasp the, the scale of the problems that we were faces in america and had to sort of drive in the ambition to try to fix those problems. Um, she is a great progressive, shes an ally of bernie sanders. She is one of the most prominent left wing labor leaders. And in the book i sort of follow her struggle of how and whether to become a leader of the larger Labor Movement and some of the challenges with trying to pull together the leadership and a move at that is so disparate and divided politically and otherwise. So there have been some successful strikes recently, of course these are make the big headlines ones at the amazon and then starbucks, which actually is being the subject of boycotts in asia or over its a relationship with the, with israel. Um, how, how did, how did the starbucks strikes, succeed . A starbucks has been a very uh inspirational organizing campaign started a couple of years ago and they decided to, to unionize once toward a time. And theyve, and they have successfully nice 400 stores now across america. Starbucks Workers Campaign has very grass roots campaign, very worker driven a lot of young, ideologically motivated workers at the stores whos done a lot of the work themselves to spread this organizing campaign. And at the same time, the billionaire founders, starbucks, our shots are radically, was born so sorry, im actually interviewed. Oh yeah. Yeah. He, i rightly was going to be Hillary Clintons choice for labor secretary and now hes the, hes the most notorious union bus or in the United States of america. But recently they did, in fact get starbucks to agree to come to the table and negotiate a contract with that union. So they, they have um, they have a light at the end of the tunnel for that campaign. And its been very successful. And as you mentioned, they were, they were on the forefront of calling for us east fire and gaza of something that spread to a lot of other unit as well. And well do now and ill stop you there. Well, from the old or the new books, i am a power inequality and the struggle with this sort of labor up to this break, the the see the silver. So the, somebody how can it be that is a ship to the middle east from a country whose top officials constantly complain about shortages of munitions and military equipments through a low paying boy a bit of boston low cream. And then the old one used to stand with below came along the nominal facility, or some of those other slash we, im about to the easiest to, to not know. So what are the easiest number mobile bubbles sold . Well, nice to know kind of the piece that have gone on now. Well, why are weapons from ukraine spreading over the world to, to this country and to a major arms hub, will continue to bolster ukraines and forces by rushing them occasionally use that they need to defend their country. The everyone knows very well that we dont sell but known as pineapples or any kind of childrens toys. We sell weapons. Yes, were also known in the world as items dealers that we must not be ashamed of them. The of the welcome back to going under granite affiliate with hamilton, illinois, through the new book, the habit of power and equality, and the struggle for the soul of labor. We were talking about the successes uh, as regards uh say starbucks. But all these unions of backing joe biden, this november, that includes uh, obviously the f l c i o f t a f, a c m i a f t. And then you people can look these up as all these acronyms that was difficult enough. I think the working are you a w uh, shop flow of different numbers. I think the 1st thing they need to do is make the union so easier to easier to understand like corporate logos perhaps. Why is it they back, joe biden . Bidens choice of the Federal Reserve boss, jerome powell, and obviously he was there before, says it is high wage growth is the problem in the United States. Thats why inflation is that even for his magazine, is saying thats a bit harsh, is actually the root of all evil, high wage growth. Do you think many of these Union Workers are seeing high wage growth and then blaming themselves because of bidens, the fed boss . As well, i, you know, the United States of america is a 2 party system and, and this is always been a challenge that face organized labor. And america is that there is a big incentive for the Democratic Party to take unions for granted because of the, the Republican Party is a partner that wants to essentially abolish unions altogether and staff out all organized labor power. And so the choice is always been the democrats because the other choice is so bad at the same time, of course, biden, who has been relatively pro union, still has the drawbacks, you know, as a, as a, as a president , even as far as labor is concerned, you mentioned the Railroad Strike and other issues. So the question, because the pro union, when enacting legislation against a powerful susie and just as you said, its a, its a very low bar to cause all around the world buttons. Foreign policy is being acting, arguably against unionizing. Organize labor in Foreign Policy. Right . I mean, because the question for unions is how do you exert influence on joe biden . Because trump is a non starter you, trump is trump, is a guy who was kicked out of his own union for being a scab. I mean, he is completely, as i union, so there is no other choice for buy them at the same time. Union just cannot sit back and allow bite in the Democratic Party to take them for granted. So they have to figure out how to apply pressure and how to influence vitamin the right direction. So 3rd Party Candidates of never being an issue. We had cornel west on this row. You know, there are these other candidates. Trade unions will just be looking to the powerful to bestow their privileges to workers rather than seeking out 3rd Party Candidates even though for weekly leaks. We know how Hillary Clinton say destroyed by nissan does. Is johns of ever becoming president by uh, using the dnc against a candidate like sizes. I think uh, bernie sanders. It was, it was a candidate within the Democratic Party would have been a great candidate for labor and had a lot of labor backing and was probably the most pro labor candidate that, that ive seen in my lifetime, who also had a viable chance of winning the democratic nomination, the problem again with 3rd Party Candidates, the United States of america is that unless they have a viable chance of winning, all you do is cut down a support to, to the candidat