Quota were beaten and mutilated. To keep the congolese people under control, the king set up the so called forest bleak which were punitive detachments that cast terror on the captured country and its inhabitants. Fearing that their subordinates would simply waste bullets hunting for wild animals. The officers demanded that the soldiers gave an answer for every bullet use, and as proof presented a job hand of an african, it was not uncommon when drying to justify the use of the munition. The columnist amputated the hands of not only those who were dead, but also of those who were kept alive. The atrocious exploitation of the congo turned into a real genocide. You know, late 20 years, the policy of the belgians laid to the death of nearly 10000000 people alongside the holocaust. The genocide of the congo population is considered to be one of the grimmest pages in the history of mankind. The welcome to worlds of part, theres an old legend victim soon as possible. Part of belgium. If you want peace, prepare for war, which may be taken as a call to violence in some human a circles. But then it is also a plea for a grounded responsible handling of realities can be starting a war. And his dynamics unable piece will discuss that. Im now joined by a young, over of director of the people funded Transnational Foundation for peace and future research. Mr. Over cuz great to talk to you again. Thank you very much for your time. Thank you very much. Now, mr. Over, well leave in a very interesting era when almost everybody has an opinion. And its usually a very passionate one about the issues of war and peace. And its usually that war is beyond comprehension. That is, it does not need to be comprehended. It only needs to be condemned and definitely needs to be started. It doesnt allowed me to be on distilled for all the underlying reasons. And i wonder if these very passionate, optical, but perhaps not very labor, it stands is directly responsible for the preponderance of conflicts in the world today. I think we made a distinction between violence and war and the one on slick, on the other media on people not to talk about, oh condemn, as you say, warfare or they love to do last year or so whether its true or sounds and cetera. But what we do in the pieces of business is to look at the on the line conflicts, because thats where the key to the solutions on line. Theres never a solution to a conflict on the be in the, in the battle field that has the dont is own dynamics. And at some point, you know, the policies will be exhausted. One when we mail whatever. But when we look at is in like a doctor, a diet, most is whats on the line, the way we have a one year over there. And what are these, what is the issue that stands between the policy is on that . So fundamentally important question, because most people look at the work and then they take it as an who is right and what is wrong thats completely irrelevant. Same to do. If youre a professional, you are what is a problem that stands between the pa does . What do you think they comp so because violent comes, when you call them, your complex is your interest in violence as essentially as a, as a product, as a consequence of the preexisting disagreements. But i think more and more were seeing a violence or conflict being employed thats simply a means to achieving certain policy is not the ultimate, the result of the countries of size. Exhausting all of the possible methods. But simply as the 1st option of achieving what you want, dont you think that perhaps the paradigm of how nation states i using the war has changed in recent years. Oh, absolutely. Particularly in the last few years when the west is going down, relatively speaking, im getting more and more desperate. Im not able to use diplomatic power, economic power, cultural talent all the way you did last day in the 50s, sixties. And that is what you have left. Now the only thing the west of the United States is go to that is one that obese rather than anybody else. However, that says they have lost all the wars is we are not morally um in terms of means on that level and everything. But i think also what you see is a parasite like a statement to you all what i call min max in the military, industrial need academic complex, mean mac, where you have smalley, who have never been elected to do anything well, the right behind the screens behind the politicians beyond the limits, im from the image is on the enemy is we actually take somebody, you know, more money to the military. So you want, where as international, no one that you encounter clearly say that bottle, it should be the last resort. Im optical ones, they said he shouldnt be stopping by peaceful means by law. Thats what all countries are written, signed on, on the you and drops the that totally by and i get every one is my lighting that today. And thats because the global system is in a huge confirmation of change. Now, speaking about the International System and i checked some fingers to view as i was preparing for this conversation. And according to the United Nations of the out of 2022, for the 1st time in record of history, the number of people forcibly displaced the reached 100. 8000000 was over 35000000 refugees. And so we have real just the ukranian conflict. We have unprecedented number of people suffering all around the world. You singled out a couple of factors that i think contributes to that. But uh, more generally, what do you think is driving this uh, whats behind this uh, ballooning number of both refugees and internally displaced people despite the fact that, you know, as he said, there was, seems to have lost many wars. But if keeps pressing the same strategy forward, you would see it this way that the worlds priorities, that would be totally cover 1st on the page, its just getting worse. The, the, the, the Resources Available for, lets say, for a piece, for the mouth, meant for human rights. Well, when you, when i would cause good and important objects to goal is to achieve including the un dana, my goal and program, etc. I would say small, uh then what the well, this countrys been on the mandatory if you type the United Nations. I think it has Something Like 10000000000. 00 for, for whatever it does. While you have more than to lose out, 1000000000. 00 wasted on military. If you could, and i could say, well that is a valuable investment because the world is moving towards peace and the only thing and with neutral understanding beyond that is that was true. I would not say that the best thing, but the best thing is weve never the well is never spent as much from the military on b as in the, secure as it is now. And its not ukraine is on the other places ukraine is and dont be. So i understand that every single cell, right in person in ukraine knows that because it is the taxes my heart. But its a Small Company in that respect, compared with what the United States and nato comes as a don since 911. 00, for instance, were talking about millions of people being killed. And that is something we have to talk about. Why do we accept citizens that those priorities that each of our governments suspended on limited sums it seems on the military that has never proved to make pays or make the whole well system bathroom. Because the only thing and all these things are over k, i are very passionately. I agree with you and disagree with you at the same time because i dont like these generalization. I think there are a number of countries, for example, even, you know, an old rivals like saudi arabia and that iran, that im moving away from this happening is the rivalry in that putting piece and development. It had all why, you know, i download, you go religious disagreements, you know, theyre all the countries like, uh, lets say armenian turkey, also exploring ways all for doing it diplomatically settling their disagreements, diplomatically. And i would argue that the russia for a number of years has tried to negotiate. Its a very essential disagreements, been both maita and ukraine in both space. It has done the before the actors phase of this conflict. And it says that there were several of the rounds of negotiations. And yeah, we have the same dynamic here. Its as if every new award that the west launch is, is like it happens it without any previous context. Its as if people have forgotten about reba. They forgotten about syria. Theyre forgotten about vietnam, iraq, to etc. What explains in your view, these collective . Im an agent on the past on the part of the western public, because we are aware of all the conflicts that have been bought around the world. And we are aware of what is you know, on the suffering thats my countrys causing to people in ukraine. Im ready to accept that fully and they have relatives in your brain, but it seems that when it comes to the west, it always has like some sort of a blank slate when it comes to every new conflict. I think is a very much to do with the fact that, you know, the west is kind of a leader. I mean, if youre number one in the system, which i think United States still think that it is, then you teach, you dont like this, this arrogance of power becomes worse and worse over time. Thats one thing. The other thing, of course, is maybe that contribution to say, but for me was been in this type of Academic Research on peace and conflict issues i worked in was own most of my the prorated real life. As i say, i dont think its possible any more to understand western security and defense policy with rational analytical theory is concepts. Its is now moved into the re, um, of the irrational emotional list calculus. The same thing. I mean, through everything nato stays on his homepage, there is no more. And now lets see is that there is a past due, which about your country about china being the new big slab on the boils down to. Its just that because its different from us. So you invent, of course the threat to you because if you dont have a threat psychologically you cannot argue that tax pay should keep on throwing money into the militarist activities, such as well as a new weapon system. Such a new one, you know, as more on that military, industrial media, academic complex exist in lots of countries, your kind of fee to china, to arrive and saudi arabia that you mentioned. Everybody was driving forces outside the control of democratic decision making. Thats exactly what an ice mile is, that we have a military Industrial Complex that is beyond democratic control and its dangerous. It will be all the American Society and its resources and create a ticket. This is a very interesting question. Lets pause for a moment. We have to take a short break, but we will return to that. After a few seconds station, the, the tide appears to be turning against the frame. The counter offensive is a stunning failure. Future western funding for the prophecy, moore is in doubt and european voters. Its started 2 beds, their displeasure for a conflict designed and promoted by their liens. Is this the beginning . The car acceptance, and im here to plan with you whatever you do, you do not watch my new show. Seriously. Why watch something thats so different. Opinions that he wont get anywhere else. Welcome to please or do the have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. Choose your fax for you. Go ahead. I changed and whatever you do. Dont want marshall state main street because im probably going to make you uncomfortable. My show is called stretching time, but again, its not. We dont wanna watch it because it might just change the way in say the welcome back to world support with john over the director of the people funded Transnational Foundation for peace and future research. Mr. Over before the break here, you mentioned this issue of the arrogance of power, and i dont remember who said it but or one of the analysts. I respect the law and he said that the United States has indeed exceptional in being able to strike with impunity anywhere around the world as having unparalleled secures advantage. Because no other country used to be at least like that, no other country with striking directly. But as you mentioned, the military costs are rising up and theyre rising up not only in the United States, but i think what distinguishes obvious aside is from america, is that of a society that actually investing into themselves. Look at china and look at the russian look even at the ron and saudi arabia, theyre actually pushing resources into Building Material life. Uh, you know, Public Sector for, for the people. But i think uh, the United States all the advantages in terms of lifestyle. It has, it is losing it quickly. When do you think these dynamic of the arrogance of power that is totally neglecting its own people while killing people overseas . When do you think it will catch up with the people within the wes collectively . Oh, theres no doubt in my mind that you dont have to be a moral philosopher to know that the more power you have, the more capital and im believe it should be. Are. Now if you dont have that moral spiritual, whatever that mention to the fact that you have military where you can only go political and cultural power, it will go wrong. And thats it. Typically in decatur, oh, when empires go down, they get to be, they get impossible to manage or extend. And as you say, they usually gentle the see in the eyes or others, they militarized themselves to death and they dont adapt to the changing world around. And they think they can bully like that. Thats always the old man whos on his best bet. Can believe the rest of the world . No trying to is a wonderful example of the way of thinking Defensive Thinking on the Nuclear WeaponsDefensive Thinking in the sense that we have arrived to rise on how a system that is not the same as the west. And that is, of course, in contrast to russia, a much larger if you will, challenge to the western world or the us dominated impaired of the system. That theres somebody who has invested in social Economic Development lives just over a 100000000 people like you revaluate product during watching. I mean, this is just to make the case of the things and im saying it all those mining because its so obvious what was, i mean, i predict this 40 years ago. I said when the soviet union falls, its brother in the west. Well for unless it does Something Else such as closing down a top and creating homeland security. Ready in your i wrote that in 1981, and i dont understand why people cant see that those changes in the big world is now for us to it back to me fine. Instead of trying to control. Because the wasted not only wasnt the sixtys as the well, they wont love to be too philosophical about it, but the old, the great powers, the thrush, or turn to have that period of great humiliation trying to have a center of simulation. We the russians also. They are tumbled by a very bitter one and back in the early 9. Tonight is a, maybe its time for the United States to, to do the same. But the thing that concerns me is the again, the militarization aspect of it because it seems that the United States is not going to go without the applied and is prepared to set up the claims all over the world to do what . Because i mean, as you mentioned the, the system is running out of steam. Its not sustainable, not only is moral terms, but in practical terms, nobody wants to be within that system anymore. Even the american closest allies, what do you think these people are actually trying to achieve the Decision Makers in washington . What are they after . Because no matter how you look at that, its not possible in practical terms, nothing ethical ones, but then practical ones. I think its very much a matter of. Ready change inside the box, they dont understand the oil anymore. And of course you dont think it is about expelling or impressions, views, etc. That can challenge those. You have yourself and that, of course, as, as you are going to get, can get it very dangerous at some point because the goal of Decision Makers and nato and washington browser, washington are of the belief that we cannot make mistakes. And we have made no mistakes on your right, but more and more of the rest of the world is turning away from the west. The best everybody in the world can do is to walk them to lex. If you asked me to my friend the relationship with the us, but keep that as a dog antagonizing dont attack it. Dont do something to help it go down with grace on this work with all the others. I mean, if you call shape or form policy in your, which wont come to lex a i, m b, you nature, us live on the rest of the world. Leg is intellectually not this having to survive as a system in my view. But what i, what i argue with these days is that we live in the khaki stock receive the only kind of his doctors, he means the government by the least stable and the least good people that seem to be moved. Dont re, books. People dont have a license, people do not ask for any consultancy from people will disagree with them so they will learn something new. Thats why you associated with the west. Well, thats why people like i said, totally marginalized, never used by the way media we just was twinges of years ago. So theres this, theres only one that ritual. So on that so most dangerous thing. Not only for the world that could lead to a new plan weapons way to be used. We know that, but its very dangerous for the west itself. Everything the United States. And i mean, the only thing it was that was because ive never been an american, it is self destructive that the United States getting weak and you just look at, you know, between 9000 budget and the white tele home, the america. So they can prove it, china from a convention or something new in the field, and now they surpassed the United States and they do this at the time. And again, yeah, everybody in this industry on the supply that has the right to be themselves, including nations. If youre defined, if you see the threat to your existence, if you character