A decision not to be taken lightly. I promise you that it often results in almost immediate, social and professional ostracism in isolation. So how does a whistle blower deal with that . Well, he or she associates with the ripe organization. Im john to reaku. Welcome to the whistle blowers the. 2 2 weve already told you the personal story of pentagon whistleblower Jackie Garrick jackie grew up like Many Americans who came from immigrant families intensely patriotic and wanting to give Something Back to the country that had given them so much in the 1980s. She did an internship at the Veterans AdministrationMedical Center in new york and developed an interest in post Traumatic Stress disorder, or p t. S. D. In veterans who had returned from service in vietnam. In 1992, she joined the army as a captain and as a social worker. Following the adage, if you want to work with veterans b one. After leaving the military, she worked as the Deputy Director of health care at the american legion, and then went onto a position on the Veterans Disability Benefits Commission in the department of Veterans Affairs. And after a few years on capitol hill, the Obama Administration asked her to organize the defense Suicide Prevention office, which oversight, disability policies impacting wounded warriors, Mental Health care, accessibility, Suicide Prevention and diversity and inclusion. Jackie survived a period of great turmoil, of depending on serving under 10, under secretaries and 12 supervisors in only 8 years in 2014 jackie begin working for a politically appointed supervisor who seemed to be hostile to her after she made legally protected disclosures regarding possible conflicts of interest and possible contract fraud. She was moved to another chain of command and soon after found that her performance ratings were being lowered. And job openings were being close to her. She filed whistleblower complaints with both the office of the special counsel and with the defense Departments Office of the Inspector General for purely bureaucratic reasons, jackie never received any satisfaction from her whistle blowing, and indeed in the end, she lost her job and was deemed eligible for federal retirement, it was only after a freedom of information act request and an appeal beyond the office of Personnel Management that she was finally able to retire. And once she did, she created the group whistle blowers of america, where she provides peer support for other whistle blowers who have suffered retaliation after having identified harm to individuals or to the public. Thats what we want to tell you about today. Jackie, thanks for joining us. Were so glad to have you back. Thank you for having me back. Its a 100 and improvements to be able to speak to twice of the the pleasures all mind. Believe me, jackie, the last time we had you on the show, we talked about your own whistle blowing, but we didnt have time to get into what youve done since then. And actually the work youve done has been very important. You created whistleblowers of america, which is one of the leading whistleblower advocacy groups in the country. Tell us about why you did that. There were certainly other whistleblower groups already in existence. What were they missing that you wanted to accomplish . The store . So i think the idea for us to lowers of america was born out of this conversation that i had with a complete stranger. We were um, connecting through linkedin and got on a phone call and she endorsed having a gun and was actively thinking about suicide. And it just reminded me of all the conversations ive ever had with combat. The fun i thought we, we cannot go through this alone. One of the things i saw that work with veterans so well was to bring a peer support approach and to have people connect. So thats what am i felt like we needed to create was the lawyers of america to really address these psycho social Mental Health sense of safety issues. We needed to make people feel more resilient and to really calling about the trauma piece. Um, do you notice im in a hotel or in san diego this week for the institute on violence and do some trauma and we just present to, to probably a 100 or so clinical staff that comes out of the federal government, the states, private sector. This issue resonates with people. They understand that workplace trauma, workplace, bullying means something and that we have to start addressing these issues. A meant to that, to me, one of the most important things that you or anybody else could do is to provide disappear support to whistle blowers. I cant stress how stress enough really, how important this is. Not just for me as a whistleblower, but for many other whistle blowers that im in touch with. I always have lower once asked me what i thought i needed the most. When i blew the whistle on the sea ice towards your program, i said money, a press spokesman and a psychiatrist. And i was only half joking. Every whistle blowers most isolated after going public and he or she needs someone to talk to even if its just a vent. So tell us about that. And about the peer to peer mentoring program. Yeah, so i think youre a 100 percent spot on with that observation. Its the and its easy to find the attorneys because theyre yes, you know theres, theres lots of organizations, bar associations. Theres ways to look up the attorneys, but most was the lowest. Dont even fully understand that whats happening to them is trauma. As a Mental Health community where i think it would be the beginning of understanding to yesterday and whats the bar retaliation quite the way. We were in the 1980s when pj yesterday was a new diagnosis and vietnam vets were, you know, listed as having more neurosis or lingering and lazy. We had all these negative stereotypes associated with, with them and then generation. And then it wasnt until other areas of veterans, other types of survivors, accident victims, crime victims, disaster. The victims were starting to come forward and saying, hey wait, this is me to, i have these symptoms too. And i think were gonna see the same thing with whistle blowers and were gonna start to see retaliation, or at least im hoping well see retaliation and the Mental Health impact that it has without having it also be a weaponized diagnosis and then gets used against them so i think we see this catch 22. We know we need more Mental Health. And yet, because of the legal system and the ramifications to come and changing cases to court for damages for pain and suffering where were still at a place where were arguing not just like the va argued fugitives, the in combat trauma with vietnam, thats for decades until you know, we sort of got that presumption that if you were in a combat, so you were exposed to trauma. If youre in a hostile Work Environment to are exposed to trauma and we have to have a trauma important perspective. I think thats absolutely right. Whistleblowers of america has a wonderful website, w w, w dot whistle blowers of america dot org. Is that right board . Or . Yes, i encourage all of our viewers to go and take a look at it. It is so straight forward and plain spoken that it makes this complicated issue of whistle blowing. Actually easy to get through. Many whistle blowers fear, becoming known as a rat or a snitch. This is something you address on the website. Somebody who, who tells on others years ago, i hope the greek government write a new whistle blower protection law. This was in 2015. It was eventually passed and it became the basis for the European Unions whistleblower protection law. But a great deal of the work was getting past the idea that whistle blowing with snitching. Tell us how youve dealt with that. Yes, so i think what youre talking about on our website is weve written letters to the american webster dictionary hospital to change the definition because and they told us that the reason microsoft because we wrote to Microsoft Office and they told us that the reason that when you type the word was the lower, then you hit send and then you get read stage, tattletale to pigeon. All those negative things. So the description is very positive, you know, preventing wrong, doing, addressing corruption. Its all very positive things. And then you come to the sending them and you know, the rails come off. And so we started this campaign by writing to microsoft who came back and told us we, we just pull it from marietta webster. So weve written to Marian Webster and they say, well, its all about common language use. So theyve encourage us to address common language use issues. And that when people are defining whats the lowers, that theyre using the words, the heroes of integrity, truth teller, emphasis, protect or 1st relate or disclose. Or weve gotten lamplighter l ringer. There are so many other or positive words to describe what was the lawyers are actually doing them the negative ones. And you know, if we dont reduce the stigma, then we dont want to make these employees feel safe in the workplace. And thats really what a lot of this is about is psychological st. James, its in veteran, had a bad consultation. Right. And nobody would want me to claim to be a veteran. We just have to get past the negative connotation of the word and make people proud to be a whistle blower and make organizations to be proud to have them. And then maybe we can get away from that. What the nice thing diagnoses to jackie talked a little bit about founding the group about pulling together resources and the work that youve done. What kinds of whistle blowers have reached out to you for help . Is it specific to the military or the government . Or do you accept all variety of whistle blowers . Yes. So when we did our articles of incorporation and attorney asked me, so whats our scope and nice at bottom . And i hope everybody. Um, by the way, now youve, weve had this vision of been being like a lien and circle, you know, 12 of us. So were gonna get together have some coffee and talk about our cases while were closing in on almost a 1000 people who have contacted us to in our 5 years. And they are in 17 countries. Wow. And that just keeps reaffirming to me that this is a trauma based Risk Response to these toxic tactics, just like the toxicity of a combat sound just like a current, any crime victim. We are seeing the same kind of effects universally. And it doesnt matter what uniform a combat that war can i get serve in greece in the us in the u. K. Holland, finland, france, you pick a country, they all can have p t s d, no matter the structure of the military because of the exposure. And so thats where i believe that these hostile Work Environments, theres almost like a presumption that we need for that because of the universal nature. So when you attack someone, when you do the same them when you bully them. Hayes them. When you marginalize them, gaslight them, those are those tactics that we look at very specifically in hub outlined. I think i mentioned we did a dr. Martina buck and i did a book on the psycho social impacts. It was a retaliation. It was so that we could set up a whistle blower, retaliation checklist because you know, we like checklists in this world. We have to have a way of documenting and measuring. And so we can hold you accountable. Then theres this is not going to end on the way to hold people accountable is to make them pay for it. And if you harm someone, you know, i break, i lose my arm and the wind shipper. We know how to accommodate me in the air and compensate me in a, a disability construct. We need the same thing for Mental Health and for whistle retaliation. You make a very important point on the website that id like to reiterate here. And that is, that was a blower, retaliation is bullying. Now were finally getting smart all around the world, about bullying. And what bullying leads to, we can lead to terrible things, not just social ostracism, but things like suicide or alcoholism or drug abuse. So you know, self medication to try to get through the bullying. We have to keep repeating over and over that retaliation against whistle blowers is a form of bullying. And another thing that we need to keep repeating over and over again is the fact that there is a Legal Definition of whistle blowing. And that is bringing to light evidence of waste, fraud, abuse, illegality, or threats to the Public Health or public safety. Thats not snitching or reading or being a tattle tale, its in the public service. So its up to us. I agree with you completely. Its up to us to make sure that the general public who may be otherwise wouldnt give much thought to an issue like this. Gets our side of the story because this is going to sound arrogant. But were right and theyre wrong. And we have to make sure that they understand that right and even when we are wrong, we dont deserve to be harmed. Yeah, i agree, and the services restored . Absolutely correct. Were going to cut to a short break, so please stay with us. When we get back, well ask Jackie Garrick about the role of whistle blowers and of america in the constellation of whistle blower groups and about an important upcoming event. Well be right back. 2 2 2 2 the acceptance, and im going to plan with you whatever you do. You do not watch my new show seriously by watch something thats so different little opinions that he wont get anywhere else. Welcome to please, or do the have the state department to see i a weapons bankers, multi 1000000000 dollar corporations. Choose your facts for you. Go ahead. Change and whatever you do. Dont want my show stay main street because im probably going to make you uncomfortable. My show is called stretching time, but again, you probably dont wanna watch it because it might just change the way you the better than the sunday was pick it up and then put in your position. You are a specialty for the publish them onto this patient. The ethics, the name on zillow, both. Oh my long previous hope. It to my man. So i dont have to remember about the vehicle slip. I almost have to do one at school. Im so long i dont dislike. I was goofy because always smoking and stuff. So go to the it gets into those core. Oh sonya and boyfriend. Yeah. Law suited best alice from the moment they have still have yet the minister dreamed of going back with the start of rushes, special operations there was renewed hope theyd see they native city again the the welcome back to the list of lawyers. Im john kerry onto were speaking with Jackie Garrick, a pentagon whistleblower and the founder of whistle blowers of america. Jackie, good to have you with us. To be back, jackie, whistle blowers of america is hosting an event here in washington dc during the 1st week of september. Tell us about that event and about what the organization is doing for it. A yeah, so we started the workplace Promise Institute into our 3rd year. It was the beginning of the pandemic. So we began by having our 1st um conference virtually because we do what we call a whistleblower protection advocate, certification. And we came up with this um idea that a minimum of 10 hours of training was when somebody should have so that they understood what we did in our network and appears according the skills we um 1st launch that again 3 years ago. And now this year were going to be doing our event live and Live Streaming from washington dc ad uh at 614th street in uh downtown by metro center. And the goal would be, is to remove the requirements for the hours, for the training, as well as provide people the opportunity to connect. We have a host of attorneys joining us. We have an international panel, so people are logging in from all over the world. Were going to be talking to journalists like yourself and some publishers, some of the craters, and talking some health staffers, so that we can talk about the Different Things that was always needed to know and how we can help mentor and support each other through the process um, on the 1st day we do what we call the draft boards. We started those because with the lower stand tall and stick their next out, everywhere i go. I find a draft and i just found this little guy here in san diego. So im taking them home with me because we need to be mindful that we, we have to embrace this idea that this is who we are and this is what weve done and we need to recognize each other. Were also going to do a rose garden march to the white house from our conference location, because uh, sending grossly has asked every president since Ronald Reagan so hostile, what was the lower them in the rose garden and none ever has. So we are just, i did that, you know what . We dont need to wait for any president where weve got our own roses. Theyre plastic, but we have our own roses and were going to take them with us. And were going to stand outside the white house and were going to post our own ceremony. We have children joining us this year. Of the whistle blowers because we have spend some time this year focusing on whats the boeing is a family issue . Um, as you probably know, especially when theyre minor children in the house, their, their home, when the home is rated, theyre watching their parents struggle. Theyre, theyre learning how to be afraid. Theyre being told dont answer the phone, dont answer the door, dont go out. We always need to know where each other is. And so we, we see this intergenerational transmission of trauma. They might not fully understand what theyre experiencing, but um, you know, youve done yearly whos the founder of the intergenerational legacy of trauma project in new york. Thats probably not the full title. But we had her on one of our round tables and we talked about children who are survivors because they lives through the experience. And then children who grow up with parents who have been traumatized. They do